[governance] Another Immovable Legal Object Meeting An Irresistable Internet Force (this time it ain't Taipei...

Wed Aug 24 14:24:27 EDT 2011

The picture I was referring to can be seen in
http://www.moillusions.com/wp-content/uploads/i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb234/vurdlak8/illusions/il_fullxfull25123265.jpg

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 5:11 AM, Philippe Blanchard <
philippe.blanchard at me.com> wrote:

> I would like to bounce back on Salanieta's comments and push the analogy a
> bit further.
>
> Definitely we all come from different perspectives and some exchanges are
> truly lively and interesting because they show the gap between our
> "respective perspectives".
>
> I wonder if the issues we are facing are not related to the fact we are
> trying to apprehend a n dimension space and project it onto a (n-i)
> dimension space. It is like Mercator world maps : it is closer to reality
> that our classical maps, however, it is still a 2 dimensional representation
> of a 3 D object. Hence a distorted representation. I am sure we will all
> agree that the bigger the "i" (or the bigger the difference between (n) and
> (n-i)), the more distortion we have.
>
> Those distortions however are not real, they are just artefacts incepted by
> our projections.  Going back to Salanieta's image, the drawing is BOTH a
> beautiful lady AND an old hag.
>
> As far as I understand, the democratic model relies on a transfer of
> responsibility to another, upper one. It has 2 pre-requisites : an
> ability/opportunity to choose your representatives AND the separation
> between the legislative, executive and judiciary responsibilities.
> THis democratic model is hence based on a vertical distribution of powers
> and some hierarchical representations (me; my town representatives; my
> deputy; my government; my President (if I happen to live in a democracy);
> Inter-regional Unions - EU for instance ; ...and United Nations atop).
>
> What if we have not only a vertical/some vertical representation model(s)
> but at the same time vertical AND horizontal organizations ? What if we
> shift from a - let's say - 1 dimension space (x axis) to 2 (or n)
> dimensions... ? What if not only Nation States but also other stakeholders
> (private, foreign) are the decision makers ?
> Then our vertical democratic model is then clearly challenged.
>
>
> We all agree that the internet has brought new interconnection
> possibilities.  And I think we all agree there will be no turning back, we
> are not going to give away our expression rights...
> Ok, Ok, I  know the risks and remember clearly the work of Wilhelm Reich's
> "Mass psychology of fascism" ! However, we are now in a position to better
> benefit from the "1789 Declaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen"
> where article 11 (freedom of expression) and article 15 (control of
> government action) are clearly applicable.
>
> We have the power to now express ourselves on one hand, and on the other
> hand, as a communicating group, we represent also a new entity...
> (For the sociologists, refer to the 3 levels of information :
> 1/ someone knows, the individual knowledge
> 2/ the collective knowledge : through media (press, radio...) we share some
> descending knowledge
> 3/ the global knowledge: we all know that we all know. We are now handling
> an information level and its "meta-level"). And that is where control of
> govt action applies.
>
>
> Therefore, one core question is how can we counter-balance, not to
> over-throw but to re-balance, the power between Nation States, transnational
> corporations.
>
> PJ Proudhon used to say " anarchy is order without power", I do think the
> net can breed auto-organizations if and only if we reach and feed this
> global knowledge level.
>
> Best regards,
> Philippe
>
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2011, at 11:46 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote:
>
> McTim, one thing is for certain, it will be fun to watch and see what
> happens in the space. Watching the debate between Paul and Daniel reminds
> and others of course reminds me of a picture which was shown to a class.
> Students were asked what the picture was, some said, it's of a beautiful
> lady in her 20s who is refined and polished and I would not mind taking her
> out. Others said, it's a picture of an old lady, some said she looked like
> an old hag.
>
> The distinction of course was in perception. They were both seeing the same
> picture but seeing totally different images. Stephen R Covey in his "The 7
> Habits of Highly Effective people" illustrates this example in the first two
> chapters, I think.
>
> I am not trying in any way to reduce the ongoing debate by boxing it but
> would merely like to as an observer of the debate appreciate where each
> debater is seeing from so I can appreciate the various rich contexts that
> you all have to offer.
>
> I think that when Daniel mentioned the regulation of the end point and the
> internet being a cloud, it helped me to see how his perception was being
> formed. Perhaps because my training is in law, so my natural paradigm is
> configured to see where Paul is coming from.
>
> As someone who is immersed in internet governance, I am enjoying the
> multi-layered complexity and the challenges that governance discussion
> brings. In Covey's book, he explores how as people begin to attempt to see
> and understand the diverse perspectives, they could then start discussing
> solutions.
>
> Best,
>
> Sala
>
> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 2:03 AM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <
>> salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The reality is whether the company hosting the Application is based
>>> abroad, the fact that its reach is in Germany, and where according to the
>>> German Regulators, privacy laws are breached then their responsibility is to
>>> notify whoever is in breach. It follows then that Facebook can either revise
>>> the protocols or web analytics for the German community where they are not
>>> in breach.
>>
>>
>> I don't think that follows at all. What the DE authorities can try to do
>> is prosecute German websites for using the "Like" button.  I have serious
>> doubts that FB will disable "Like" for all German FB users.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> McTim
>>
>
>
>
>> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route
>> indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sala
>
> " Perfect Stillness in the midst of the noise".
>
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-- 
Sala

" Perfect Stillness in the midst of the noise".
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