[governance] Re: SECOND DRAFT statement on enhanced cooperation

Mon Nov 8 06:07:30 EST 2010

Thank you, Michael, for having recentered the focus on real issues and demystifieed the MSP as a universal model of international and national governance.
We, the grass-root orgs of CS are practically excluded from the majority of the main themes addressed here or at least we are far from the ideology a certain number of the listmembers tend to impose to all (e.g. no or at best only weak governement interference in "our affairs") 
Recurrent and dominant academic and theoretical discourse of our distinguished members. Even suspect orientations, some mails sounding like Tea Party echoes, as if we were in the US. 
Fortunately there are some members (Parminder, Michael, i.a.) who try to "compensate" this neoconsevative dominant discourse, but not without risking to be agressed (cf McTims or A. Doria's mails) instead of being considered as valuable alternatives, at least for building hypotheses or drafts.  

Our regretted friend Francis Muguet (it was just a year he was buried in Paris) used to call these kind of members " the Commintern" : How was he right with his vision ! 

Moreover, don't forget : this list is a language restricted forum ! Therefore its outreach isn't "universal" as many/most of the members pretend. Only well English speaking/writing people are concerned/allowed/able to express their opinions here ! 
Where, by the hell, is "cultural and linguistic diversity" that CS WSIS Declarations revendicate as being high in its agendas and actions ? Who out of the tenors or so considered writers are aware of this and open to listen and understand as relevant the positions and opinions expressed in another (e.g. UN official) language, i.e. are ready to spend more time (and dictionnary use ...) for that ? 
So, please don't feel as being THE CS opinion but only a part of it.

BTW : Depending on our level of English language knowledge, we ought to spend a lot of time for writing our mail and in many cases we are discouraged to contribute because it requires a more or less long time (I need constatntly my dictionnary when writing a mail or reply to another ...).  

Sincerely
Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT

> Message du 08/11/10 00:14
> De : "Michael Gurstein" 
> A : governance at lists.cpsr.org, "'Avri Doria'" 
> Copie à : 
> Objet : RE: [governance] Re: SECOND DRAFT statement on enhanced cooperation
> 
> 
> A/the problem with a multistakeholder approach is that it is essentially
> "interest based" i.e. it is based on reflecting/enabling those with specific
> and direct "interests" in a policy issue to participate in the policy making
> process; while ignoring/disabling the opportunity for those with more
> diffused involvements/interests from direct participation.
> 
> The health care debate in the US is a very good example here as it has in
> fact operated on an essentially multistakeholder platform. The medical
> industry, unions, corporations, bigPharma, even the AARP (retired persons)
> have all been involved in the discussion but who represented the 40 million
> uninsured apart from a few ELECTED representatives/legislators?
> 
> The same has to be said about IG... It is fairly evident that those with
> specific "interests" are well represented as stakeholders, and in this
> instance even nation states have had a role (in the global sphere states
> would appear to have accepted a role as "interested" but not determining
> parties). But in the area of IG who is representing the broader public
> interest (certainly not a very narrowly based and non-representative in any
> sense, CS)--including for example, those with no or limited access; those
> for whom access is unavailable or highly restricted because of geography,
> disability or cost; or those with access but who are lacking in the
> opportunity to make effective use of that access in support of better living
> circumstances for themselves and their families and communities.
> 
> These questions are neither rhetorical nor theoretical but in fact go to the
> very heart of our and IG activties overall.
> 
> Mike Gurstein
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri at psg.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:09 PM
> To: IGC
> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: SECOND DRAFT statement on enhanced cooperation
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The health care stmt was just an example to show, that personally I do
> support government action, especially on the local level. I will avoid
> getting in to Off Topic details on what I think specifically on this topic.
> 
> Yes, I would like to see a multistakeholder process in the US on deciding
> all policy issues (including health care). In fact, again just as example,
> when I had the opportunity to discuss a particular state's (US definition of
> state) build out of broadband within that state, I proposed a specifically
> tailored multistakeholder model. I see this model of policy making as the
> next step in democracy; multistakeholder model of policy creation is a form
> of representational democracy + participatory democracy. And I see it as
> something we are still learning about.
> 
> Now you have added another topic, full consensus. I support idea of
> rough/near consensus, not full consensus. But that would be another long
> topic on what that means and how that is achieved in a multistakeholder
> environment - another field in which we are still growing in experience.
> 
> Sorry my model was not specific enough. I propose a decentralized model
> that includes the groups that are already working on issues and avoids
> creating new centralized monoliths, though I do add the notion of appeals
> and arbitration mechanisms. It is a model of step wise refinement, and
> model that includes the many things we see happening already in the 'IG
> grid' (i thought grids were an older model, but I don't mind the term, i
> like grids as long as they are not 2 dimensional).
> 
> I must note, that I was spoken to sternly, though privately, for wasting the
> group's time with theoretical discussions when real stuff was happening an
> real stuff needed to be decided. So I will stop now.
> 
> a.
> 
> 
> On 7 Nov 2010, at 05:34, parminder wrote:
> 
> > Avri,
> > 
> > Thanks for your detailed response. A few responses/ questions for the 
> > present.
> > 
> > On Saturday 06 November 2010 08:28 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
> >> 
> >>> (BTW, a true practice of this ideology should entail giving up of 
> >>> all government provided benefits and protection, for the purpose of
> which ,in the present circumstances, maybe taking up residence in Southern
> Afganistan will be the best exemplar. Such an experience may be quite
> insightful.)
> >>> 
> >> Not my position, man. e.g. I want a government led/regulated single 
> >> payer health system in the US.
> >> 
> > I am happy to hear that. But do you have a particular reason why US's 
> > health policy should not be decided only in completely open forums , 
> > which are fully multistakeholder, only if we get complete consensus, 
> > also fully involving health insurance companies and drug companies who 
> > must completely agree too? I am of course picking up from, what 
> > appears to me, is your preference for such a model for global IG. If 
> > not so, can you please again explain how policies get made in your 
> > model.
> > 
> > I really do not understand it. Isnt US gov like all other govs based 
> > on an imperfect representational system, which we shd continuously try to
> improve, *but not an the expense of creating a policy making vacuum*.
> > 
> > Further, you asked is your governance model 'specific enough'. 
> > Really, but I did not see any governance model for making global policies
> there. (CIRs is not what I am taking about.) I mean, can you tell me how I
> can have democratically negotiated cyber security treaties rather than done
> by the OECD and forced on others, same with Internet related issues included
> in ACTA, and much more is slated to come. All this will be pushed through
> FTAs on non OECD countries. Many policies and preferences of the West just
> come through technology models - and we take it or leave it, such is the
> global might of the involved tech companies, who of course do much more
> carefully listen to US gov and stronger European countries.
> > 
> > You think we need health policies but not Internet policies? Again, 
> > any particular reason? parminder
> > 
> >> But you do a good job of arguing ad absurdum. Be careful though. 
> >> When one argues the ad absurdum, I have found, there is always 
> >> someone you can convince with your absurd argument. Just look at 
> >> recent US elections, people can be convinced of anything at times. 
> >> But that's representational democracy. I digress.
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> > 
> >>> > Any system systematically developing and enforcing public policies 
> >>> > is in effect a government. we can have a good - more inclusive,
> transparent, accountable, progressive etc - government or governance system,
> or a bad one.
> >>> 
> >> I disagree that governance is the province of governments. Any 
> >> governance system can and should go beyond the governments. First, all
> governments are just local affairs for some definition of local, with no
> world government either in existence or in the offing. Further, governments,
> the best of which have a strong representative democracy - and there are few
> that meet this criteria, are just touching the tip of what it means to be
> democratic. True democracy builds its base on the representative 1 person 1
> vote (though some are still just 1 man 1 vote, or just 1 landowner 1 vote
> ...) model, but goes far beyond that into participatory democracy.
> Representative democracy may be the foundation of democracy, but it does not
> provide a full edifice for full democracy.
> >> 
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