[governance] Wording to prevent a deadlock (re: Jeanette)

michael gurstein gurstein at gmail.com
Tue Feb 9 03:21:51 EST 2010 

Hmmm... Realo's vs. Fundi's 

Was ever thus...

M

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeanette Hofmann [mailto:jeanette at wzb.eu] 
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 1:13 AM
To: Paul Lehto
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Wording to prevent a deadlock (re: Jeanette)




Paul Lehto wrote:
> There simply is no action, concrete or otherwise, that is not preceded 
> by ideas and principles, even if the principles are pragmatism, 
> hedonism, greed or whatever.

I don't deny this but this discussion is not a conceptual one, it is 
about agenda setting. We discuss the issue of how to make rights and 
principles the subject of a main session at the next IGF.
The MAG works by consensus. We won't get any topic accepted that one or 
several of the members don't want.
I will leave it at that. I am not even sure anymore if we are arguing 
about the same goals.

jeanette


Thus, there is no "concrete" without
> rights and/or principles, so a preference for "concrete" is not a 
> "second way", it's just an application of principles to a single 
> context, with no claim for their broader applicability (whenever 
> rights or principles are not expressly identified for purposes of
> such)
> 
> A "concrete" proposal will have principles (for certain) and may have 
> rights that underlay its actual text, so the question is, are those 
> principles and rights that necessarily exist in all cases just 
> undisclosed in the text of a particular case example, or have the 
> rights instead been abandoned in favor of some other de facto vision 
> of internet governance?
> 
> If it is the latter, we can all be thankful that, in the rights we do 
> have, other people and prior generations did not give up after the 
> first few rejections.  That's the key to success in fields as 
> disparate as sales, politics, rights and training for the olympic 
> games.
> 
> Paul Lehto, Juris Doctor
> 
> On 2/7/10, Jeanette Hofmann <jeanette at wzb.eu> wrote:
>>
>> Paul Lehto wrote:
>>> Milton Mueller is 100% correct: Then let them veto it.
>>>
>>> Just make sure the wording, in the event of a possible veto, is the 
>>> best possible thing to be vetoed, so that way it's a win/win in some
>>> ways: Either we get the main session, which is a win, or we don't 
>>> get the main session but instead we get a 'cause celeb' so to speak, 
>>> a revealing display of hostility to the rights and interests of 
>>> internet users.
>> I am sorry but we have this "revealing display of hostility to the 
>> rights and interests of internet users" in the transcript of almost 
>> every open consultation since WSIS. And we had the same stuff in the 
>> WSIS prepcoms before that. I really, really fail to understand what 
>> you hope to gain from being politically correct but practically 
>> losing out on the chance to explore the issue of rights in a main 
>> session.
>>
>> What counts in preparing IGFs is the _implementation_, the concrete 
>> organization of sessions (speakers, topics, moderators, etc). The 
>> formal title of a session, the buzz words, are symbolic politics at 
>> most.
>>
>> I begin to think that many of you find it more satisfying to 
>> heroically lose on a right cause than negotiating a pragmatic 
>> solution that would allow us to actually design the agenda of the 
>> next IGF.
>>
>> jeanette
>>> Without rights, all that's left is market power/money, and whatever 
>>> random concessions market power/money may wish to make in order to 
>>> keep a fig leaf of user rights in front of their exposed anatomy.
>>>
>>> All legitimate political power emanates from rights held by people. 
>>> The rest is the power of money to distort the discussion of rights. 
>>> To the extent any entities' power is out of proportion to the number 
>>> of human supporters, that entity is undemocratic to that same 
>>> extent.
>>>
>>> Paul Lehto, Juris Doctor
>>>
>>> On 2/7/10, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> wrote:
>>>> Let them veto it. Make the decision transparent, let the public 
>>>> discuss it - at the consultation and at the main sessions of the 
>>>> Vilnius IGF. Just be sure that the call for a rights theme is clear 
>>>> and well-phrased enough so that we can better make an issue of it.
>>>> Instead of using "alternate wording" on the vain hope that
authoritarians
>>>> can somehow be tricked into participating in a discourse on individual
>>>> rights, use even clearer, sharper language to ensure that everyone
knows
>>>> what is happening when the MAG vetoes it.
>>>>
>>>> --MM
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Ginger Paque [mailto:gpaque at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 7:59 AM
>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Jeanette Hofmann
>>>> Cc: William Drake; McTim; Parminder
>>>> Subject: [governance] Wording to prevent a deadlock (re: Jeanette)
>>>>
>>>> Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
>>>> "Just to reiterate what I said, certain MAG members will veto a 
>>>> main session on rights. I didn't say that we should give up on this 
>>>> topic as Jeremy suggests. I said we should be inventive and find 
>>>> new, perhaps more abstract
>>>> wording that offers a way out of this deadlock. I cannot think of
>>>> anything
>>>> good at the moment but perhaps something such as 'legal provisions'
would
>>>> work? "
>>>>
>>>> I understand Jeannette's concern, and agree that we need to address 
>>>> it. However, we have not been able to come up with alternate 
>>>> wording. I hope we can discuss options for interventions at the 
>>>> Monday evening meeting at Les
>>>> Brasseurs, which will help us find common ground with the other
>>>> stakeholders, so that the OC can develop an effective proposal to
address
>>>> IRP.
>>>>
>>>> If you have any ideas, please post them. We have some possibilities 
>>>> to
>>>> consider:
>>>>
>>>> legal provisions (Jeanette)
>>>> Human/personal/individual aspects of Internet Governance 
>>>> Human/personal/individual dimensions of Internet Governance 
>>>> Internet governance and the position of individuals Internet 
>>>> governance and individuals
>>>>
>>>> gp
>>>>
>>>> Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> William Drake wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 7, 2010, at 8:51 AM, McTim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you could send me the link to the thread where it was 
>>>> defined? I've 63 threads in my Inbox containing the term, and can't 
>>>> find a definition of it in any of them.
>>>>
>>>> McTim, Parminder, you are both right.  R&P is a broad and 
>>>> underspecified concept, which makes it a bit of a hard sell, AND 
>>>> the caucus has endorsed it several times and it enjoys a lot of 
>>>> support here.  The latter trumps the former,
>>>>
>>>> Why? Majority trumps reason?
>>>>
>>>> so it should be included in the
>>>>
>>>> statement.
>>>>
>>>> Just to reiterate what I said, certain MAG members will veto a main 
>>>> session on rights. I didn't say that we should give up on this 
>>>> topic as Jeremy suggests. I said we should be inventive and find 
>>>> new, perhaps more abstract
>>>> wording that offers a way out of this deadlock. I cannot think of
>>>> anything
>>>> good at the moment but perhaps something such as 'legal provisions'
would
>>>> work?
>>>>
>>>> jeanette
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Bill____________________________________________________________ 
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> 
> 
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