[governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
parminder
parminder at itforchange.net
Fri Aug 13 12:27:14 EDT 2010
Building on Micheal's post below, Anriette please note that i spoke
about multistakeholderism as a policy making form (or forum) and not a
discussion forum
to quote from my email
"The principal> lesson for this deal is for all of us to reconsider the foggy business > of multistakeholderism as a new policy-making form,"
There are many on this list who uphold multistakeholderism as a
policy-making forum. That is what I am rebutting.
Also, when we only speak of policy discussion forums like with the IGF
without talking of the policy making forum into which this discussion
must feed, which has to be a public interest based democratic forum,
expressly excluding private interests with conflict of interest wrt
policy matters being considered, we are promoting both a policy deficit
and a democratic deficit.
The problem is when policy discussions take the place of policy making,
or still worse, as Micheal says, '
the process leading up to the policy to in some sense become the policy making itself."
This unfortunately is largely the situation of much of global IG today.
Parminder
On Friday 13 August 2010 09:37 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
> I completely agree with Anriette as far as she goes, the problem is that "discussion and processes" in many cases blur (or are anticipated as blurring) into policy making and that's where the issues arise. What should be the processes (and structures) of policy making and who should be involved in the actual making of the policy as opposed to discussion about/consultation concerning the policy?
>
> In the absence of effective (democratically anchored) policy making structures there is a tendency to allow the process leading up to the policy to in some sense become the policy making itself.
>
> Also, by focusing our (civil society's) attention and resources only on the (multi-stakeholder) processes insufficient attention is paid/resources given to building/reinforcing the broadly based democratic policy making structures.
>
> The IGF (including the regional IGF's) are useful certainly but dare I say that they still suffer rather severely from a "democratic deficit".
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anriette Esterhuysen [mailto:anriette at apc.org]
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:28 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; parminder
> Cc: SAMUELS,Carlton A
> Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
>
>
> Dear Parminder and all
>
> I agree with Parminder on network neutrality being a very pressing issue in developing countries.. particularly in the mobile universe.
>
> My views on stakeholders participation are probably a bit different.
>
> Yesterday I participated in a conference called Tech4Africa. http://www.tech4africa.com/
>
> It was very interesting, very dynamic. Mobile, mobile broadband, mobile content featured in several sessions. Net neutrality did not get nearly enough attention.
>
> Here is my reading on how different stakeholder groups in Africa see net neutrality in Africa. These are just perceptions and it would be great if other Africans can share their perceptions:
>
> Governments:
> - either unaware or already in the pockets of the mobile operators
> - concerned with content and services and working with providers to get these to end-users without any consideration of the implications for competition/net neutrality etc.
>
> Regulators:
> - some beginning to think about the issue, not sure how to deal with it, often of the view that it is not yet a priority and that they should focus on reducing cost of access
> - some in the pocket of operators
> - some just not really aware of how to deal with this issue in mobile and of the view that it only applies to fixed line or internet infrastructure
>
> Businesses - large mobile:
> - large mobile operators area seriously investing in content and applications and in mobile broadband
> - partnering with development agencies and business to provide services that are making them a fortune, and benefiting users
> - in fact... it would not surprise me if Safaricom wins a Nobel Peace Prize for Mpesa :)
>
> Business - small and medium in the ICT sector:
> - many would like to get into content
> - some fear for their survival if they cannot get into mobile and content, particularly digital broadcasting, e.g. local producers of local content, local language content, and also public interest content
> - the lack of net neutrality in the mobile space is of HUGE concern to them once they understand the issues
> - other smaller business and also community and not-for-profit initiatives are forced to work through the large operators when they develop content for mobile... very anti-competitive.. kind of replicates what happened with government owned telco monopolies forcing everyone to use their infractructure for internet... which is still happening in some places
>
> Business can be broken into many more stakeholder and interest groups.. these are just examples.
>
> NGO/Not-for-profit/social and community enterprises:
> - exploring content and service and applications... currently, as i said above, they depend on the 'generosity and goodwill' of mobile operators
> - the difference here is that at least those who are in the content business know that lack of net neutrality is bad... the NGOs are not aware of these issues
>
> Sorry.. this is long.. but I am trying to say that real life is not as simple as you make it out to be. Interests and where groups stand on policy and regulation on for example net neutrality does not just depend on whether the 'stakeholder' is a business or a government. It is based on specific configurations of power and knowledge and opportunity at any given time.
>
> I agree with you that in the making of policy all stakeholders should not have equal power. It depends on the policy - and also on the specific public interest at stake. But assuming that government and civil society are the sole protectors of the public interest does not always hold true in my experience, not in Africa. Often in the ICT sector it is the small to medium business players whose interests come closest to that of the general public.
>
> In most African countries there are still very few civil society organisations active in the ICT or access to knowledge policy debates.
>
> Government has a specific role in making sure that policy is made openly and inclusively, and in the public interest. Government needs to be held accountable for the policy implementation, and what happens as a result of this implication. They need to be forced to fix/change policies that do not service the public interest. But hearing what all the different stakeholders have to say is always useful in my opinion. Policy making processes that listens and asks questions in public where community, business, civil society can all say their piece, results in better policy and stronger partnership in implementation.
>
> Consider also that in most developing countries government has very little capacity... even the good ones.
>
> One of the many reasons why I feel that IGF has been such an important experiment is that it is a forum for policy dialogue, not for policy making.
>
> Both policy making and policy dialogue works better with input from lots of different stakeholders. Business and civil society and those people that are usually not included enough, communities, end-users, workers, consumers.
>
> How the multi-stakeholder participation is facilitated and configured needs to be different in dialogue spaces and policy-making processes. Mechanisms to avoid the abuse of power are essential in policy-making.
>
> But I don't think we should ever undervalue the value of multi-stakeholder participation in our sector... including in policy discussion and processes.
>
> Anriette
>
>
>> This is the reason that network neutrality is really even more a
>> developing country issue, a big and central part of what would be
>> development agenda.)
>>
>> Coming back to the principal issue I wanted to raise. The principal
>> lesson for this deal is for all of us to reconsider the foggy business
>> of multistakeholderism as a new policy-making form, and clearly
>> understand and accept the long established distinctions between pulbic
>> interest and private interest.
>>
>> Companies represent private interests. That is what they are supposed
>> to do, and they will always end up doing so. In fact there is nothing
>> wrong for them to do it, as long as they are within legal boundaries.
>> That is the nature of the private sector, definitionally.
>>
>> On the other hand, civil society and governments are public interest
>> players. Both sectors at diferent times can have different problems
>> about their legitimacy etc, and this has to be engaged with. However
>> the essential difference between private interest players (businesses)
>> and public interest players (civil society and governments) has always
>> been clear, and we would be doing great disservice to the global
>> society if in the name of multistakeholderism we try to distinguish
>> this difference.
>>
>> As Carlton notes in his email
>>
>> Sober commentators have already weighed in on the implications
>> of what they see as Google switching sides in the NN debate.
>> Most have come to recognize the critical issue; when loads of
>> money is in play, priorities tend to follow the money. It is
>> quixotic to pretend otherwise.
>>
>> It is time we also stopped pretending otherwise. We should be working
>> for deepening democracy - a concept that challenges government's
>> singular authority by complementing it with other forms of interest
>> representation, rather than multistakeholderism, a concept which seems
>> built to give political respectability to private interests.
>>
>> Parminder
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday 12 August 2010 11:51 PM, SAMUELS,Carlton A wrote:
>>
>>> Parminder:
>>>
>>> I share the sentiments in your final paragraph even as you badly
>>> misread my misgivings. To report what is – and recognize the nature
>>> of things – can hardly be construed as endorsement. Sober
>>> commentators have already weighed in on the implications of what
>>> they see as Google switching sides in the NN debate. Most have come
>>> to recognize the critical issue; when loads of money is in play,
>>> priorities tend to follow the money. It is quixotic to pretend
>>> otherwise.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I cut my professional teeth in the telecommunications business, pre
>>> Final Modified Judgment; Judge Green’s Order that broke up Ma Bell.
>>> And it is from certain knowledge that I can declare that
>>> telecommunications companies have always had preferred customers and
>>> show preference in very business-like practical ways for those
>>> customers. Routine business transactions that hardly ever see the
>>> light of a [public] day. Coupled to this, they occupy a critical
>>> portion of the Internet ecosystem. Gut check: they are principally
>>> sellers of connectivity and bandwidth. And like every other seller,
>>> volume transactions matter. To resist acknowledging that there is a
>>> marketplace that has certain behaviours is untenable. At least,
>>> for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We – civil society – are left with very few dogs in the hunt. One
>>> of them is to make personal statements that undergird our
>>> opposition. Grouch Marx was alleged to have said “I don’t want to
>>> belong to any club that will have me as a member”. The sentiment
>>> expressed has a larger embrace and this is where you’ll find me.
>>> Ginger’s response to Apple and Apple products is part of that piece;
>>> I own no Apple products and I will never buy an Iphone. Another is
>>> stoking public disgust. Because even the most rapacious corporation
>>> is mindful of its public image. Sometimes, even more so than
>>> politicians! [It was fascinating to watch the public contortions of
>>> BP in recent past!]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My position is that this ‘knowing’ is what fuels the big picture
>>> response, whether it involves politicians driven to act for fear of
>>> losing votes or acting in collaboration with other interests out of
>>> genuine belief. This is the basis for my argument that transparency
>>> trumps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carlton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:parminder [mailto:parminder at itforchange.net]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:49 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carlton
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 11 August 2010 04:36 AM, SAMUELS,Carlton A wrote:
>>>
>>> Ginger hit the nail squarely on its head; the crux of the NN issue
>>> for civil society is transparency.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, transparency is hardly enough. a quote from a quote in Ginger's
>>> subsequent email "That way, as Americans lose access to the free and
>>> open Internet, they can visibly watch it go away."
>>>
>>> How does it matter if I know something is happening if I have no way
>>> of influencing it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The competitive free market will always devise methods, processes
>>> and activities intended to create advantage for one or other player. There will always be players willing to make investments to pump their wares; something for free that others are charging for is a tried and true method, ala "free" text messaging for x period.
>>>
>>> Lowering the barrier to entry or participation is another. MS
>>> Windows took pole position in the OS space because there were apps driving its market penetration; a readily available SDK fueled the spread. Case in point: despite the hype and sleekness of the Iphone, it wouldn't have been such a hit without those apps. And the smart decision to freely distribute its SDK. Putting some 'skin in the game' by making a popular hi-traffic app available for free is not a stretch in marketing imagination.
>>>
>>>
>>> Even in terms of commercial regulation, why does then EU fine
>>> Microsoft Billions of dollars for bundling IE with its OS? And this
>>> when market distortions vis a vis stand alone applications like OS
>>> and browsers is not one tenth of what vertical integration and
>>> bundling would do in the network or Internet space.
>>>
>>> However, if one doesnt believe in need to watch over possible
>>> excesses of market power, one just doesnt. No amount of argument can
>>> do anything about it. One can chose to be more bothered about the
>>> daily new glamorous things one gets on one's i-phone and the
>>> Internet, or be more bothered about the structural implications of
>>> vertical integrations in the network space to the hopes set by the
>>> Internet for a more egalitarian world.
>>>
>>> You seem to be happy that Apple bundles so much goodies with its
>>> i-phone, McTim and Ginger are unhappy about the exclusive walls that
>>> the apps ecology of i-phone and other Apple products are creating,
>>> and therefroe refuse to use Apple products. Neither stances, in my
>>> view, is enough from a civil society advocacy group perspective
>>> which needs to probe the deeper policy issues and come up with
>>> responses that serve the progressive cause and advoacte them
>>> strongly on behalf of those who cannot be present in these forums
>>> but whose lives are nonetheless greatly affected by these
>>> developments.
>>>
>>> In any case, at least in my view, Internet is not just a market
>>> place, it is a social space for our non-commerical social
>>> interactions, it is a public media and a public sphere, it is a
>>> space for exercising citizenship. Perhaps without discussions on
>>> these deeper issues and essential nature of the Internet and what we
>>> take it to be, discussions on a 'simple act' of a free Internet
>>> based service wont go anywhere.
>>>
>>> Parminder
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Innovation tumbles over innovation, that's the law.
>>>
>>> Carlton
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ginger Paque [mailto:gpaque at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:37 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Ian Peter
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
>>>
>>> Ian and Parminder,
>>>
>>> This is an interesting point for me, but I wonder where the line is
>>> between advertising and other issues, like 'free benefits' which
>>> David mentions. For instance, when text messaging was first
>>> available in Venezuela, it was free. It was free for long enough to
>>> get everyone hooked on it. Then they started charging for it.
>>>
>>> It is difficult for me to see this as a NN issue since it sounds
>>> more like a 'free trial', or a 'package deal' that attracts
>>> customers. My serious issues with NN are lack of transparency, not
>>> marketing.
>>>
>>> Where do you see this 'line'?
>>>
>>> I think this is a good time to discuss NN so that we can be more
>>> productive in Vilnius.
>>>
>>> Best, Ginger
>>>
>>> On 8/7/2010 11:23 PM, Ian Peter wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Parminder,
>>>
>>> Unfortunately Australia has already jumped ship on this too. It is common
>>> practice for ISPs here (who have volume charging regimes) to create free
>>> zones of their partner sites which do not attract volume charges and/or
>>> traffic shaping when people exceed download limits. Nobody here seems to
>>> want to pick this up as an issue. To me, this is a distortion of a free
>>> market and an open Internet at the same time and should be attracting a lot
>>> more attention.
>>>
>>> The mobile world, as you mention, brings with it other distortions and
>>> potential distortions (eg built in apps and interfaces)
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree - we should discuss.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ian Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: parminder<parminder at itforchange.net>
>>> Reply-To:<governance at lists.cpsr.org>, parminder<parminder at itforchange.net>
>>> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:51:02 +0530
>>> To:<governance at lists.cpsr.org>,<ciresearchers at vancouvercommunity.net>
>>> Subject: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles
>>>
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> The biggest mobile operator in India, Airtel, is providing Facebook free
>>> of data download charges in India (apparently, only for 2 months). I
>>> understand this is happening in other countries too; i read about
>>> something similar in Russia.
>>>
>>> I consider this as an outright violation of net
>>> neutrality (NN).
>>>
>>> Since there are existing codes of conduct on NN in some countries like
>>> Norway and Brazil, I will like to know from those who know and
>>> understand these country specific arrangements well if such a thing as
>>> above will be considered a NN violation under these
>>> codes.
>>>
>>> If indeed developing countries are to have any chance of being a part of
>>> shaping and governing the future of the Internet, we should start
>>> testing such cases as above with the telecom regulatory authourities,
>>> and if needed with courts and anti-trust bodies.
>>>
>>> Parminder
>>>
>>> PS: See latest developments on NN debate in the US
>>> at
>>>
>>> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/google-verizon-close-to-their-
>>> own-net-neutrality-deal.ars
>>>
>>>
>>> It appears that there is some move to treat wireless or mobile based
>>> Internet on a different level vis a vis NN than
>>> wired Internet.
>>>
>>> As the largest market players - here, Verizon and Google - seek to
>>> arrive at a mutually convenient arrangement, and the only other party
>>> to it is the US gov, itself representing very partisan, and largely
>>> dominant, interests, as far as the global public Internet is concerned,
>>> the real shape of global IG is quite evident. Where does the IGF, and
>>> indeed the IGC come into this may be a question that we need to ponder
>>> upon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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