From ias_pk at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 30 18:18:56 2009
From: ias_pk at yahoo.com (Imran Ahmed Shah)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:18:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal'
 file-sharers
In-Reply-To: <613331.98001.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <415026.85384.qm@web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The users are on threat who had been involved in sharing and downloading right protected contents. 

In a first glance it seems a simple threat for the Torrent Users and Websites by the Lawyers who are going to protected through the court orders and supported with anti piracy act. The main purpose of this activity is assumed to sorting out a source of income for the lawyers. They have found a way to demand a settlement fee or to ask the owners to compromise on the illegal usage and sharing their files or other contents. 

On thinking twice, it may reflect another point of view that social and public networks are not protected and secure against privacy, especially when some data sharing utilities are installed on the computers. It is dangerous to some extend and may result to a huge amount of fine. This is necessary for the awareness of internet users that if the have downloaded a Torrent Application onto their computer to download any of the legally free contents from the other users such as utilities which are free and share-ware under open GPL policies, they are innocent and are not doing any illegal action but it is most possible that same application has provided access for external users to your hard disk (where some license software is stored for their own use and is protected as legal contents). Now what will be happen if hundred of other user will be accessing from your hard disk, downloading and using it? Definitely they have become a part of network who are
 involved in piracy by sharing their files and software for illegal usage.

Similarly what protection rights are being provided to the Internet Users. For example some times a Trojan or Virus (like waucult.exe) is installed onto the all network computers when they are connected to the ISP&#39;s DNS Server. And many of them stars fetching and up loading all files from the infected computer. Who knows that where data packets are being transferred. LAN or Modem upload statistics reaches upto .2 to .5 millions in a 4 hours. Who is fetching this data and where it will be used? Even by installing anti virus applications No one can catch it. Either ISP is involved or his DNS Server is also infected?

An other deep thinking may lead to the facts that how minutely monitored with the help of ISP, what the internet users are browsing, who is connected to which network, who is accessing or sharing which type of contents on the highway of the Internet. It is just beyond the log-in and log-out timing of the internet connections.

The illegal usage of the internet, software applications and utilities should be reduced to zero level to stop piracy and to provide the financial benefit to the application owners and developers of the contents.  

Imran A Shah

Eric Dierker wrote: 
> In some small way, many of us welcome such action.  Courts are slow. The only opinions in western jurisprudence that carry the weight of precedence or guidance are Appellate Court opinions.  For most we need more guidance and interpretation of the law  -- a larger case law body of interpretation and application.  While the few may suffer, some will bring these issues up through the expensive and time consuming Appellate process where we can begin to get some clearer picture of where we are headed, based upon where we have been.  As the 2 % or so of these work their way up, watch for most of those to be resolved prior to opinions that could possibly hurt the industrial side of the equation. --- On Mon, 11/30/09, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote: 
>  From: Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> Subject: [governance] Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers To: "'governance at lists.cpsr.org'" <governance at lists.cpsr.org> Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 12:56 AM 
>  Private policing..... Shows the kind of global policy issues and frameworks that are at stake. Parminder 
>  Page last updated at 13:54 GMT, Friday, 27 November 2009 E-mail this to a friend     Printable version Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers By Jonathan Fildes Technology reporter, BBC News Ethernet cable Software is used to track down the suspected pirates Around 15,000 suspected pirates may soon get legal letters accusing them of illegally sharing movies and games. ACS:Law plans to send notes to the accused in the new year offering a chance to settle out of court for "several hundreds of pounds". A lawyer who has defended people who have received similar letters described it as a "scattergun approach" that would catch "innocent people". ACS:Law said it was "unaware" of anyone who had been wrongly sent a letter. Andrew Crossley of the firm told BBC News it was acting to "eradicate" sharing of its client's products. "We
>  give them opportunity to enter into compromise right at the start to avoid having to deal with it [in court]," said Mr Crossley. If it went to court and the lawyers were successful, he said, damages "would run into several thousands of pounds". But consumer group Which? said that it had heard from around 150 consumers who had been "wrongly accused" in similar cases. "A lot are accused of downloading pornography," Jaclyn Clarabut of Which? told BBC News. "People find it distressing or embarrassing and pay up." Others, she said, "don't want the threat of court action" hanging over them or cannot afford to pay for a lawyer and settle the claim for the lower figure.    We estimate that commencing in the New Year we will be despatching circa 15,000 letters in relation to these two orders Andrew Crossley She said that based on previous experience, "a lot of people will be surprised" by the latest wave
>  of letters. Michael Coyle, lawyer at Southampton based firm Lawdit, described the scheme as "having very little to do with protecting the rights of the copyright holder". Instead, he said, it was "more to do with making money from alleging copyright infringements on a massive scale". He has represented several hundred clients who have received letters from ACS: Law and other firms. None of his clients has ever been forced by a court to pay a fine, he said, although some clients had decided to settle out of court. "This scattergun approach to the file sharing litigation will inevitably result in a large number of innocent parties being issued with a claim for copyright infringement." ACS: Law are "currently under investigation" by the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA), but a spokesperson said it could not divulge any more details about the nature of the complaints. The Law Society has also received complaints.
>  Mr Crossley said his firm had been targeted by an "internet campaign" and was cooperating with the inquiries. "It doesn't of itself indicate that I have done anything wrong," he said. "I have no qualms or concerns about what I am doing." Data harvest ACS: Law recently obtained two High Court orders that require ISPs to hand over the names and addresses of the account holders for 30,000 IP addresses, a number which can identify a computer on the internet. It is currently preparing three more. The orders were obtained on behalf of two German clients: DigiProtect and MediaCat. Mouse and keyboard Which? say innocent people have been caught out in similar cases Both firms are licensees of copyright work. They act on behalf of copyright holders, including various pornography studios, to pursue alleged copyright infringements. They use software to monitor file sharing networks to harvest IP
>  addresses which are then turned over to law firms to get account details. "We state that they [the alleged file-sharers] have made available to others via peer-to-peer file-sharing networks various products that they have rights in," said Mr Crossley. He said these included "games, films and music". "We estimate that commencing in the New Year we will be despatching circa 15,000 letters in relation to these two orders," he said. The letters would be used to tell the alleged "file-sharer" that they were thought to have infringed copyright. It would also inform recipients that a claim may be made against them in court and would "invite" them "to enter into a compromise to avoid any litigation." The amount would vary, he said, but was typically £300-500. The money is split between the copyright holder, licensee, the firm monitoring IP addresses and ACS: Law, which operates on a no win, no fee basis.
>  'Spoof' address Concerns have been raised about the technology used to identify IP addresses. Which? has highlighted various examples of innocent people accused by firms such as DigiProtect . "Many have never heard of peer-to-peer file sharing," said Ms Clarabut.    ILLEGAL FILE-SHARING File-sharing is not illegal. It only becomes illegal when users are sharing content, such as music, that is protected by copyrights The crackdown will be aimed at people who regularly use technologies, such as BitTorrent, and websites, such as The Pirate Bay, to find and download files There are plenty of legitimate services which use file-sharing technology such as some on-demand TV services Q&A: Disconnecting file-sharers "Some are accused of downloading video games but never played a game in their life." A study published in 2008 by Which? highlighted the case of Scottish couple Gill
>  and Ken Murdoch, aged 54 and 66, who were accused of sharing a video game. At the time, Mrs Murdoch told Which?: "We do not have, and have never had, any computer game or sharing software." The letters were sent by another law firm, which no longer represents DigiProtect. Mr Crossley said the Murdochs had been identified because the ISP gave the lawyers the wrong information about the account. Mr Crossley admitted the account holder may not be the person sharing files illegally. As a result, he said, the letter, would also invite the recipient to name the person they thought was responsible. The growing popularity of wi-fi means many people share an internet connection. Recent studies have also shown that many people do not password protect their wi-fi connections, meaning they can be hijacked and used for nefarious means. In addition, technology exists that can hide or "spoof" an IP address. Mr Crossley
>  said that "spoofing" did not apply for file sharing purposes. Expert analysis Mr Coyle said he also had reservations about the methods used to identify people and said they had never been challenged in court by experts. "The last thing they want is this software being examined in a court of Law - it would shoot the goose that lays the Golden Egg," he said. No court case has ever been fully decided from a letter sent by ACS: Law, he said. Although Mr Crossley admitted the software had never been analysed in court, he denied it had never been scrutinised. "Every application submitted to court is supported by an expert report," he said. The report was compiled by "an independent expert" and confirmed that the "data being collected is accurate". "That is the starting point for us," said Mr Crossley. "It is very important for us to be accurate. If it is not, everything that comes from that data
>  must be flawed." Similar concerns are currently being outlined to the UK government which recently outlined how it plans to tackle illegal file-sharers. The Digital Economy bill recently had its first reading and includes a plan to disconnect persistent offenders. BBC News - Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers (29 November 2009) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8381097.stm -----Inline Attachment Follows----- 
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From goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au  Sun Nov  1 00:05:42 2009
From: goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au (David Goldstein)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:05:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
 Era
In-Reply-To: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Of course, those on this list wouldn't want to get the media hyping this event in the way of what was actually claimed.

From the ICANN news release:
"The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the biggest
technical change to the Internet since it was created four decades
ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush.

Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use domain names is very significant. Eventually it will probably benefit every language that includes a character in addition to A to Z, 0 to 9 and a dash.

I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think outside the square and appreciate this.

Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to ensure IDNs were safe and secure to use. But then, many on this list are loathe to admit such a thing.

Well, I guess bitterness prevails...

David



----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
Sent: Sun, 1 November, 2009 10:57:22 AM
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New Era

Fouad wrote

>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.

Very few people who have examined this subject think the Internet was
created 40 years ago. See
http://www.nethistory.info/History%20of%20the%20Internet/origins.html
for an article I wrote when the same group celebrated the "35th
anniversary". 

I think Stephane's comments are relevant. ICANN's tick on IDNs is welcome
and overdue, but not ground breaking.

The real credit here does not lie with ICANN, but with people like Dr. John
Klensin, Dr. Konishi (Japan), Prof. Qian (China), Dr. Kenny Huang (Taiwan),
and Dr. Ko (Korea), James Seng (Singapore), TanTin Wee, many others. And as
Stephane states, the breakthrough was five years ago, not now.

But spin doctors create popular history and myths propagate.



On 1/11/09 12:11 AM, "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 08:22:33PM +0900,
>  Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote
>  a message of 109 lines which said:
> 
>> The internet regulator ICANN has approved plans to allow
>> non-Latin-script web addresses,
> 
> Unicode characters in domain names have been technically approved in
> 2003 (with the publication of RFC 3490) and installed first in a TLD a
> few months later (though I do not remember which TLD was the first
> one). ICANN, as often, is very late here. We see "non-Latin-script web
> addresses" for many years.
> 
>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.
> 
> This is simply ridiculous. More than the creation of the DNS? Or of
> BGP? Or than the deployment of TCP/IPv4, both non-existent 40 years
> ago?
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
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From mueller at syr.edu  Sun Nov  1 08:18:17 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:18:17 -0500
Subject: [governance] Civil society in ICANN: a success
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14AD@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>


Dear colleagues:

Many of you heard of the conflict noncommercial users and civil society organizations were having with ICANN over the reform of its representational structures. There is good news to report: The full ICANN Board met with representatives of the Noncommercial Users Constituency at its recent meeting in Seoul, and we came out of that meeting in basic agreement about what to do next. There are still some wrinkles to be ironed out, but we are on a convergent path.

A key factor in changing opinions was the strong membership growth the NCUC experienced over the past year and the impressive level of attendance and participation the NCUC generated at the Seoul meeting.  

This blog article explains what happened at the NCUC-Board meeting in more detail. http://blog.internetgovernance.org/blog/_archives/2009/10/25/4361022.html  

You can also see the proposed transition plan on the NCUC site: 
http://ncdnhc.org/profiles/blogs/ncuc-ncsg-transition-plan 

The basic message I want to convey is simpler: 

Thanks to all those civil society organizations who commented in the ICANN GNSO reform process on our behalf, and thanks especially to the many individuals and organizations who joined NCUC during that process. We are now a much stronger and more active force in global governance of Internet name and number resources. 

--MM

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From iza at anr.org  Sun Nov  1 01:43:53 2009
From: iza at anr.org (Izumi AIZU)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:43:53 +0900
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
 Era
In-Reply-To: <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
	 <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a5509d940910312243o461a6dc4mb736752206a5c8aa@mail.gmail.com>

We are working to introduce a competitive bidding for the registry of
new IDN ccTLD, dot-Nippoin. The uncumbent is allowed to bid for, but
whole idea is to create choice and
competition among, even ccTLDs. It's not an easy task, to make it
open, fair, balanced.
Hence we started Japan Internet Domain Name Council, with bit of
multi-stakeholder
framework, mainly composed of Internet industry associations (four of
them together),
with Consumer body, and the Government sits as "observer".

izumi


2009/11/1, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>:
> Of course, those on this list wouldn't want to get the media hyping this
> event in the way of what was actually claimed.
>
> From the ICANN news release:
> "The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the biggest
> technical change to the Internet since it was created four decades
> ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush.
>
> Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use domain
> names is very significant. Eventually it will probably benefit every
> language that includes a character in addition to A to Z, 0 to 9 and a dash.
>
> I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think outside
> the square and appreciate this.
>
> Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to ensure IDNs
> were safe and secure to use. But then, many on this list are loathe to admit
> such a thing.
>
> Well, I guess bitterness prevails...
>
> David
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Stephane Bortzmeyer
> <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
> Sent: Sun, 1 November, 2009 10:57:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
> Era
>
> Fouad wrote
>
>>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
>>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.
>
> Very few people who have examined this subject think the Internet was
> created 40 years ago. See
> http://www.nethistory.info/History%20of%20the%20Internet/origins.html
> for an article I wrote when the same group celebrated the "35th
> anniversary".
>
> I think Stephane's comments are relevant. ICANN's tick on IDNs is welcome
> and overdue, but not ground breaking.
>
> The real credit here does not lie with ICANN, but with people like Dr. John
> Klensin, Dr. Konishi (Japan), Prof. Qian (China), Dr. Kenny Huang (Taiwan),
> and Dr. Ko (Korea), James Seng (Singapore), TanTin Wee, many others. And as
> Stephane states, the breakthrough was five years ago, not now.
>
> But spin doctors create popular history and myths propagate.
>
>
>
> On 1/11/09 12:11 AM, "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 08:22:33PM +0900,
>>  Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote
>>  a message of 109 lines which said:
>>
>>> The internet regulator ICANN has approved plans to allow
>>> non-Latin-script web addresses,
>>
>> Unicode characters in domain names have been technically approved in
>> 2003 (with the publication of RFC 3490) and installed first in a TLD a
>> few months later (though I do not remember which TLD was the first
>> one). ICANN, as often, is very late here. We see "non-Latin-script web
>> addresses" for many years.
>>
>>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
>>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.
>>
>> This is simply ridiculous. More than the creation of the DNS? Or of
>> BGP? Or than the deployment of TCP/IPv4, both non-existent 40 years
>> ago?
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
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>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
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>


-- 
                        >> Izumi Aizu <<

          Institute for InfoSocionomics, Tama University, Tokyo

           Institute for HyperNetwork Society, Oita,
                                  Japan
                                 * * * * *
           << Writing the Future of the History >>
                                www.anr.org
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From siliconvalley2005 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  1 04:17:23 2009
From: siliconvalley2005 at yahoo.com (annan ebenezer)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 01:17:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New Era
 of Internet and Local Languages
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70910310422g6e3e8336r6b336c91044a5b63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <618496.24881.qm@web110218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

 
Kudos to all, it has been a well- fought  "thing". i remember reading about  this  news some time ago. It is finally with us. the challenges that would   coming with it need to be managed. I believe it will spark more "identity revelations" and it is good for the world and internet governance.
ebenezer, Ghana

--- On Sat, 10/31/09, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
Subject: [governance] IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New Era of Internet and Local Languages
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Saturday, October 31, 2009, 4:22 AM


Reporting from Seoul!

The internet regulator ICANN has approved plans to allow
non-Latin-script web addresses, a move that is being described as the
biggest change to the way the internet works since it was created 40
years ago. For example, this opens up Pakistan's Internationalized
Domain Names Space in Urdu, Sindhi, Pashto etc....Initially the
Government of Pakistan, Ministry of IT&T/PTA will be provided with the
facility to acquire IDN's from ICANN before the companies and
individuals can! For participation in the various processes of ICANN.
The news in detail is below with video links:

Watch ICANN's Video about IDN's:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid46208174001?bctid=46955584001

Read the news on CNN:
Internet domain names set to appear in non-Latin scripts
October 30, 2009 -- Updated 1213 GMT (2013 HKT)
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/29/internet.domains.languages/index.html

Read the news on BBC:
Internet addresses set for change
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8333194.stm

The Official News:
ICANN Bringing the Languages of the World to the Global Internet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: ICANN Website:
http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-30oct09-en.htm
Fast Track Process for Internationalized Domain Names Launches Nov 16

30 October 2009

Seoul: The first Internet addresses containing non-Latin characters
from start to finish will soon be online thanks to today's approval of
the new Internationalized Domain Name Fast Track Process by the
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers board.

"The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the
biggest technical change to the Internet since it was created four
decades ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush. "Right now
Internet address endings are limited to Latin characters – A to Z. But
the Fast Track Process is the first step in bringing the 100,000
characters of the languages of the world online for domain names."

ICANN's Fast Track Process launches on 16 November 2009. It will allow
nations and territories to apply for Internet extensions reflecting
their name – and made up of characters from their national language.
If the applications meet criteria that includes government and
community support and a stability evaluation, the applicants will be
approved to start accepting registrations.

" This is only the first step, but it is an incredibly big one and an
historic move toward the internationalization of the Internet ," said
Rod Beckstrom, ICANN's President and CEO. "The first countries that
participate will not only be providing valuable information of the
operation of IDNs in the domain name system, they are also going to
help to bring the first of billions more people online – people who
never use Roman characters in their daily lives."

IDNs have been a topic of discussion since before ICANN's inception.
It's taken years of intense technical testing, policy development, and
global co-operation to prepare the Fast Track process for its coming
launch.

"Our work on IDNs has gone through numerous drafts, dozens of tests,
and an incredible amount of development by volunteers since we started
this project. Today is the first step in moving from planning and
implementation to the real launch," said Tina Dam, ICANN's Senior
Director for IDNs. "The launch of the Fast Track Process will be an
amazing change to make the Internet an even more valuable tool, and
for even more people around the globe."

More information of the Fast Track program is available online at:
http://www.icann.org/en/topics/idn/fast-track/

About ICANN:

ICANN is responsible for the global coordination of the Internet's
system of unique identifiers like domain names (like .org, .museum and
country codes like .uk) and the addresses used in a variety of
Internet protocols that help computers reach each other over the
Internet. Careful management of these resources is vital to the
Internet's operation, so ICANN's global stakeholders meet regularly to
develop policies that ensure the Internet's ongoing security and
stability. ICANN is an internationally organized, public benefit
non-profit company. For more information please visit: www.icann.org.



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
@skBajwa
Answering all your technology questions
http://www.askbajwa.com
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 10:29:13 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:29:13 +0900
Subject: [governance] Civil society in ICANN: a success
In-Reply-To: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14AD@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
References: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14AD@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911010729oe52418brd7f13c065fad58e2@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Milton and all our Colleagues!

All I can say is that we couldn't have done it without each other! It
was good to meet you all and work together to achieve this!

There is bound to be some more good news in its making and I am
optimistic and determined that this is not going to take too long now!

Best

Fouad Bajwa

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues:
>
> Many of you heard of the conflict noncommercial users and civil society organizations were having with ICANN over the reform of its representational structures. There is good news to report: The full ICANN Board met with representatives of the Noncommercial Users Constituency at its recent meeting in Seoul, and we came out of that meeting in basic agreement about what to do next. There are still some wrinkles to be ironed out, but we are on a convergent path.
>
> A key factor in changing opinions was the strong membership growth the NCUC experienced over the past year and the impressive level of attendance and participation the NCUC generated at the Seoul meeting.
>
> This blog article explains what happened at the NCUC-Board meeting in more detail. http://blog.internetgovernance.org/blog/_archives/2009/10/25/4361022.html
>
> You can also see the proposed transition plan on the NCUC site:
> http://ncdnhc.org/profiles/blogs/ncuc-ncsg-transition-plan
>
> The basic message I want to convey is simpler:
>
> Thanks to all those civil society organizations who commented in the ICANN GNSO reform process on our behalf, and thanks especially to the many individuals and organizations who joined NCUC during that process. We are now a much stronger and more active force in global governance of Internet name and number resources.
>
> --MM
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Sun Nov  1 12:09:57 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 13:09:57 -0400
Subject: [governance] Federal Judge Says E-mail Not Protected By 4th 
In-Reply-To: <9102918.1257020536623.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <9102918.1257020536623.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <45ed74050911010909r3b425e8nea97e374e6ea1a4b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jeffrey,

I am posting before reading the reference materials, blush, because I saw
your post on the way going out but wanted to respond to your own
observations.  But I will read the materials and get back as others likely
will with feedback.

I was at a Federal trial here last week where it was just about all email as
evidence. A wrote, B wrote, A responded, etc... with lots of apparent intent
to capture admissions.  What happened to sworn affidavits?

Used to be email was by definition casual and not binding.  Right? Wrong?
Neither?  Both?

Warm regards, LDMF.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Jeffrey A. Williams <jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
> wrote:

> All,
>
>  As an perhaps important FYI...  FWIW this seems to be a rather shocking
> rueling even given the narrowness of same as most users use third party
> providers and as such their Email is therefore not protected under the
> forth amendment in the opinion of this judge.  I personally believe
> he is mistaken on the grounds that a user of such a service has or
> should have a reasonable expectation of PII in the use of their
> account.  This goes directly to governance concerns and perhaps
> others would care to share their opinions???
>
> See:
>
> In the case In re United States,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_W._Mosman
> Judge Mosman ruled that there is
> http://volokh.com/2009/10/28/district-judge-concludes-e-mail-not-protected-by-fourth-amendment/noconstitutional requirement of
> notice to the account holder because the Fourth Amendment does not apply
> to e-mails under the third-party doctrine. 'When a person uses the
> Internet,
> the user's actions are no longer in his or her physical home; in fact he or
> she is not truly acting in private space at all. The user is generally
> accessing the Internet with a network account and computer storage owned
> by an ISP like Comcast or NetZero. All materials stored online, whether
> they are e-mails or remotely stored documents, are physically stored on
> servers owned by an ISP. When we send an e-mail or instant message from
> the comfort of our own homes to a friend across town the message travels
> from our computer to computers owned by a third party, the ISP, before
> being delivered to the intended recipient. Thus 'private' information is
> actually being held by third-party private companies."" Updated 2:50 GMT
> by timothy: Orin Kerr, on whose blog post of yesterday this story was
> founded, has issued an
> http://volokh.com/2009/10/29/opinion-on-fourth-amendment-and-e-mail/importantcorrection. He writes, at the above-linked Volokh Conspiracy, "In the
> course of re-reading the opinion to post it, I recognized that I was
> misreading a key part of the opinion.  As I read it now, Judge Mosman
> does not conclude that e-mails are not protected by the Fourth Amendment.
> Rather, he assumes for the sake of argument that the e-mails are protected
> (see bottom of page 12), but then concludes that the third party context
> negates an argument for Fourth Amendment notice to the subscribers."
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeffrey A. Williams
> Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
> "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
>   Abraham Lincoln
>
> "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
> often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt
>
> "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
> liability
> depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
> P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
> United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
> ===============================================================
> Updated 1/26/04
> CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
> Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
> ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail
> jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
> Phone: 214-244-4827
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
- - -
With warm regards,
LDMF.
Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
914 769 3652
law /  computing / humanities:
Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the U.N.;
World Education Fellowship;
Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
Persons with Pain Intl.;
ICT multiple decades;
Other affiliations on Request.

n.b.:
- The *Respectful Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing
Diversity" (ask about leadership interning).
- Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the CCC/UN
(Gellermann et al).
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From bortzmeyer at internatif.org  Sun Nov  1 12:45:00 2009
From: bortzmeyer at internatif.org (Stephane Bortzmeyer)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:45:00 +0100
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New  Era
In-Reply-To: <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20091101174500.GE8305@sources.org>

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 09:05:42PM -0700,
 David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au> wrote 
 a message of 112 lines which said:

> Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
> domain names is very significant.

So what? Nobody said the opposite. The point is that it is old news,
it is now six years since the introduction of IDN. ICANN's
announcement means very little.

> I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
> outside the square and appreciate this.

Again, what is the relationship with what I wrote?

> Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to
> ensure IDNs were safe and secure to use. 

There was a lot of work for IDN. IETF people for the standardization,
software authors for the libraries, registry employees for the
introduction of IDN in their registry, such as .JP or .CN (both were
among the first). ICANN did nothing significant except spreading FUD
about mysterious "dangers" and holding expensive meetings.

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From goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au  Sun Nov  1 19:01:48 2009
From: goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au (David Goldstein)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:01:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New  Era
In-Reply-To: <20091101174500.GE8305@sources.org>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20091101174500.GE8305@sources.org>
Message-ID: <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

So by your reckoning Stephane, the last 6 years were wasted and the testing by ICANN was irrelevant?




----- Original Message ----
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
To: David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Sent: Mon, 2 November, 2009 4:45:00 AM
Subject: Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New  Era

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 09:05:42PM -0700,
David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au> wrote 
a message of 112 lines which said:

> Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
> domain names is very significant.

So what? Nobody said the opposite. The point is that it is old news,
it is now six years since the introduction of IDN. ICANN's
announcement means very little.

> I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
> outside the square and appreciate this.

Again, what is the relationship with what I wrote?

> Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to
> ensure IDNs were safe and secure to use. 

There was a lot of work for IDN. IETF people for the standardization,
software authors for the libraries, registry employees for the
introduction of IDN in their registry, such as .JP or .CN (both were
among the first). ICANN did nothing significant except spreading FUD
about mysterious "dangers" and holding expensive meetings.


      __________________________________________________________________________________
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From icggov at johnlevine.com  Sun Nov  1 20:56:16 2009
From: icggov at johnlevine.com (John Levine)
Date: 2 Nov 2009 01:56:16 -0000
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
 Era
In-Reply-To: <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20091102015616.48046.qmail@simone.iecc.com>

In article <194011.97226.qm at web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com> you write:
>So by your reckoning Stephane, the last 6 years were wasted and the
>testing by ICANN was irrelevant?

ICANN was shouting "Hey! Look at me!" while other people did the real
work.

The IETF IDNA group did a vast amount of work, including a recently
completed update, to deal with all of the nitpicky stuff about what
characters are allowed in what scripts.  Programmers all over the
world wrote, debugged, and deployed punycode libraries to implement
the IDN specs.

ICANN did a handful of tiny tests which did nothing more than confirm
that everyone else had already done the real work.

R's,
John
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From mueller at syr.edu  Mon Nov  2 01:40:38 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 01:40:38 -0500
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
In-Reply-To: <20091102015616.48046.qmail@simone.iecc.com>
References: <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
 <20091102015616.48046.qmail@simone.iecc.com>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DD@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>

I am not disagreeing with John but for better or worse, we seem to be missing what ICANN really did. Of course it did not do the technical work - that is not its mission. What it did was policy work, act as a gatekeeper to the root, and specifically make the decision that ccTLD operators would have a privileged right to enter the IDN space first. I am deliberately describing that decision in as neutral terms as I can - I suspect most of you know my opinion of it - but at least let's be accurate about what ICANN does and does not do.

--MM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Levine [mailto:icggov at johnlevine.com]
> 
> ICANN was shouting "Hey! Look at me!" while other people did the real
> work.
> 
> The IETF IDNA group did a vast amount of work, including a recently
> completed update, to deal with all of the nitpicky stuff about what
> characters are allowed in what scripts.  Programmers all over the
> world wrote, debugged, and deployed punycode libraries to implement
> the IDN specs.
> 
> ICANN did a handful of tiny tests which did nothing more than confirm
> that everyone else had already done the real work.
> 
> R's,
> John
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From mueller at syr.edu  Mon Nov  2 01:42:50 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 01:42:50 -0500
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
In-Reply-To: <a5509d940910312243o461a6dc4mb736752206a5c8aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
	 <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
 <a5509d940910312243o461a6dc4mb736752206a5c8aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DE@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>

This is really great, Izumi. I spoke with someone from JPRS at the Seoul meeting and she hinted that Japan would take a more open and competitive approach to the IDN fast track. This is a model policy that I wish other countries would follow. Let us know how it works out.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: izumiaizu at gmail.com [mailto:izumiaizu at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Izumi
> AIZU
> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:44 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; David Goldstein
> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
> Era
> 
> We are working to introduce a competitive bidding for the registry of
> new IDN ccTLD, dot-Nippoin. The uncumbent is allowed to bid for, but
> whole idea is to create choice and
> competition among, even ccTLDs. It's not an easy task, to make it
> open, fair, balanced.
> Hence we started Japan Internet Domain Name Council, with bit of
> multi-stakeholder
> framework, mainly composed of Internet industry associations (four of
> them together),
> with Consumer body, and the Government sits as "observer".
> 
> izumi
> 
> 
> 2009/11/1, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>:
> > Of course, those on this list wouldn't want to get the media hyping this
> > event in the way of what was actually claimed.
> >
> > From the ICANN news release:
> > "The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the biggest
> > technical change to the Internet since it was created four decades
> > ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush.
> >
> > Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
> domain
> > names is very significant. Eventually it will probably benefit every
> > language that includes a character in addition to A to Z, 0 to 9 and a
> dash.
> >
> > I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
> outside
> > the square and appreciate this.
> >
> > Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to ensure
> IDNs
> > were safe and secure to use. But then, many on this list are loathe to
> admit
> > such a thing.
> >
> > Well, I guess bitterness prevails...
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
> > To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Stephane Bortzmeyer
> > <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
> > Sent: Sun, 1 November, 2009 10:57:22 AM
> > Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A
> New
> > Era
> >
> > Fouad wrote
> >
> >>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
> >>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.
> >
> > Very few people who have examined this subject think the Internet was
> > created 40 years ago. See
> > http://www.nethistory.info/History%20of%20the%20Internet/origins.html
> > for an article I wrote when the same group celebrated the "35th
> > anniversary".
> >
> > I think Stephane's comments are relevant. ICANN's tick on IDNs is
> welcome
> > and overdue, but not ground breaking.
> >
> > The real credit here does not lie with ICANN, but with people like Dr.
> John
> > Klensin, Dr. Konishi (Japan), Prof. Qian (China), Dr. Kenny Huang
> (Taiwan),
> > and Dr. Ko (Korea), James Seng (Singapore), TanTin Wee, many others. And
> as
> > Stephane states, the breakthrough was five years ago, not now.
> >
> > But spin doctors create popular history and myths propagate.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/11/09 12:11 AM, "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 08:22:33PM +0900,
> >>  Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote
> >>  a message of 109 lines which said:
> >>
> >>> The internet regulator ICANN has approved plans to allow
> >>> non-Latin-script web addresses,
> >>
> >> Unicode characters in domain names have been technically approved in
> >> 2003 (with the publication of RFC 3490) and installed first in a TLD a
> >> few months later (though I do not remember which TLD was the first
> >> one). ICANN, as often, is very late here. We see "non-Latin-script web
> >> addresses" for many years.
> >>
> >>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
> >>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.
> >>
> >> This is simply ridiculous. More than the creation of the DNS? Or of
> >> BGP? Or than the deployment of TCP/IPv4, both non-existent 40 years
> >> ago?
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________________
> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> >> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> >>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >>
> >> For all list information and functions, see:
> >>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> >     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> > Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> > Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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> >
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> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
>                         >> Izumi Aizu <<
> 
>           Institute for InfoSocionomics, Tama University, Tokyo
> 
>            Institute for HyperNetwork Society, Oita,
>                                   Japan
>                                  * * * * *
>            << Writing the Future of the History >>
>                                 www.anr.org
> ____________________________________________________________
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From iza at anr.org  Mon Nov  2 02:50:16 2009
From: iza at anr.org (Izumi AIZU)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:50:16 +0900
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
In-Reply-To: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DE@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com> 
	<a5509d940910312243o461a6dc4mb736752206a5c8aa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DE@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <a5509d940911012350h3e117844qb550d0b6e81fabdb@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Milton,

As you can imagine, the process is not an easy one - and will continue
to be so. One camp wants for competition, another values consistency.

As far as I know, no other ccTLD at this point plans to introduce
plural registry for the new IDN - all existing registry will also run
the IDN.  But, I heard that in China, a new registry is being created,
for the new gTLD, but also they might run for city TLDs such as
Beijing or Shanghai - the government rep lady said in Sydney said that
want to introduce competition.

izumi

2009/11/2 Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>:
> This is really great, Izumi. I spoke with someone from JPRS at the Seoul meeting and she hinted that Japan would take a more open and competitive approach to the IDN fast track. This is a model policy that I wish other countries would follow. Let us know how it works out.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: izumiaizu at gmail.com [mailto:izumiaizu at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Izumi
>> AIZU
>> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:44 AM
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; David Goldstein
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
>> Era
>>
>> We are working to introduce a competitive bidding for the registry of
>> new IDN ccTLD, dot-Nippoin. The uncumbent is allowed to bid for, but
>> whole idea is to create choice and
>> competition among, even ccTLDs. It's not an easy task, to make it
>> open, fair, balanced.
>> Hence we started Japan Internet Domain Name Council, with bit of
>> multi-stakeholder
>> framework, mainly composed of Internet industry associations (four of
>> them together),
>> with Consumer body, and the Government sits as "observer".
>>
>> izumi
>>
>>
>> 2009/11/1, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>:
>> > Of course, those on this list wouldn't want to get the media hyping this
>> > event in the way of what was actually claimed.
>> >
>> > From the ICANN news release:
>> > "The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the biggest
>> > technical change to the Internet since it was created four decades
>> > ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush.
>> >
>> > Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
>> domain
>> > names is very significant. Eventually it will probably benefit every
>> > language that includes a character in addition to A to Z, 0 to 9 and a
>> dash.
>> >
>> > I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
>> outside
>> > the square and appreciate this.
>> >
>> > Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to ensure
>> IDNs
>> > were safe and secure to use. But then, many on this list are loathe to
>> admit
>> > such a thing.
>> >
>> > Well, I guess bitterness prevails...
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> >
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From bortzmeyer at internatif.org  Mon Nov  2 03:05:23 2009
From: bortzmeyer at internatif.org (Stephane Bortzmeyer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:05:23 +0100
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
In-Reply-To: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DD@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
References: <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20091102015616.48046.qmail@simone.iecc.com> <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DD@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <20091102080523.GB18519@nic.fr>

On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 01:40:38AM -0500,
 Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> wrote 
 a message of 30 lines which said:

> I am not disagreeing with John but for better or worse, we seem to
> be missing what ICANN really did. Of course it did not do the
> technical work - that is not its mission.

ICANN boasted a lot about technical tests it commissioned (and which
were basically a waste of time, since IDN in the root raises *zero*
*technical* issues).

So, if ICANN were to say "We are just a policy body, we don't do
technical stuff", I would agree with you. But ICANN is not that candid2,
and pretends to deal with undefined technical issues like the famous
"security and stability of the Internet". That's also in the name of
these technical issues that ICANN delayed IDN in the root.
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From bortzmeyer at internatif.org  Mon Nov  2 03:02:21 2009
From: bortzmeyer at internatif.org (Stephane Bortzmeyer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:02:21 +0100
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New  Era
In-Reply-To: <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20091101174500.GE8305@sources.org> <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20091102080221.GA18519@nic.fr>

On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 04:01:48PM -0800,
 David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au> wrote 
 a message of 50 lines which said:

> the last 6 years were wasted 

Not at all. I wonder if I'm really so bad with the english language or
if you do not read what other people write. During these six years,
many zone administrators actually deployed IDN (For the record, I
fully agree with John Levine here.)

> and the testing by ICANN was irrelevant?

Mostly yes. (For the record, I fully agree with John Levine here.)

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From avri at psg.com  Mon Nov  2 03:29:26 2009
From: avri at psg.com (Avri Doria)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:29:26 +0900
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
 Era
In-Reply-To: <20091102080221.GA18519@nic.fr>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20091101174500.GE8305@sources.org> <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20091102080221.GA18519@nic.fr>
Message-ID: <BE1E81B2-F88B-49E7-A956-5752174A0125@psg.com>


On 2 Nov 2009, at 17:02, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

> Not at all. I wonder if I'm really so bad with the english language or
> if you do not read what other people write.

no, you write clearly enough.

but what you are doing is not differentiating between idns having been  
available at the second level for a long time and only now at the  
first level.
i do not know if this is intentional or accidental.
but i have often noted in conversations on domain names that people  
tend to make this mistake, so it is possible you are just missing the  
difference.

a.

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From charlespmok at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 03:33:36 2009
From: charlespmok at gmail.com (Charles Mok (gmail))
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 16:33:36 +0800
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
In-Reply-To: <a5509d940911012350h3e117844qb550d0b6e81fabdb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
	 <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	 <a5509d940910312243o461a6dc4mb736752206a5c8aa@mail.gmail.com>
	 <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DE@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
	 <a5509d940911012350h3e117844qb550d0b6e81fabdb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7cd8c34e0911020033p59c3c3a4nc45b25a1afb33745@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Izumi,

Hats off to Japan for doing it and for setting a pioneering example for the
rest of the world.  Pls keep us updated of the process, as it should be
useful for the rest of us when we try to state the same kind of case to our
governments/bureaucracies.

Thank you,
charles

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Izumi AIZU <iza at anr.org> wrote:

> Thanks Milton,
>
> As you can imagine, the process is not an easy one - and will continue
> to be so. One camp wants for competition, another values consistency.
>
> As far as I know, no other ccTLD at this point plans to introduce
> plural registry for the new IDN - all existing registry will also run
> the IDN.  But, I heard that in China, a new registry is being created,
> for the new gTLD, but also they might run for city TLDs such as
> Beijing or Shanghai - the government rep lady said in Sydney said that
> want to introduce competition.
>
> izumi
>
> 2009/11/2 Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>:
> > This is really great, Izumi. I spoke with someone from JPRS at the Seoul
> meeting and she hinted that Japan would take a more open and competitive
> approach to the IDN fast track. This is a model policy that I wish other
> countries would follow. Let us know how it works out.
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: izumiaizu at gmail.com [mailto:izumiaizu at gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> Izumi
> >> AIZU
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:44 AM
> >> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; David Goldstein
> >> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A
> New
> >> Era
> >>
> >> We are working to introduce a competitive bidding for the registry of
> >> new IDN ccTLD, dot-Nippoin. The uncumbent is allowed to bid for, but
> >> whole idea is to create choice and
> >> competition among, even ccTLDs. It's not an easy task, to make it
> >> open, fair, balanced.
> >> Hence we started Japan Internet Domain Name Council, with bit of
> >> multi-stakeholder
> >> framework, mainly composed of Internet industry associations (four of
> >> them together),
> >> with Consumer body, and the Government sits as "observer".
> >>
> >> izumi
> >>
> >>
> >> 2009/11/1, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>:
> >> > Of course, those on this list wouldn't want to get the media hyping
> this
> >> > event in the way of what was actually claimed.
> >> >
> >> > From the ICANN news release:
> >> > "The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the
> biggest
> >> > technical change to the Internet since it was created four decades
> >> > ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush.
> >> >
> >> > Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
> >> domain
> >> > names is very significant. Eventually it will probably benefit every
> >> > language that includes a character in addition to A to Z, 0 to 9 and a
> >> dash.
> >> >
> >> > I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
> >> outside
> >> > the square and appreciate this.
> >> >
> >> > Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to ensure
> >> IDNs
> >> > were safe and secure to use. But then, many on this list are loathe to
> >> admit
> >> > such a thing.
> >> >
> >> > Well, I guess bitterness prevails...
> >> >
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
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http://www.hkej.com/template/forum/php/forum_details.php?blog_posts_id=20878
Join Internet Society Hong Kong 加入香港互聯網協會 --
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From bortzmeyer at internatif.org  Mon Nov  2 07:59:07 2009
From: bortzmeyer at internatif.org (Stephane Bortzmeyer)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:59:07 +0100
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New  Era
In-Reply-To: <BE1E81B2-F88B-49E7-A956-5752174A0125@psg.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20091101174500.GE8305@sources.org> <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <20091102080221.GA18519@nic.fr> <BE1E81B2-F88B-49E7-A956-5752174A0125@psg.com>
Message-ID: <20091102125907.GA23280@nic.fr>

On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 05:29:26PM +0900,
 Avri Doria <avri at psg.com> wrote 
 a message of 26 lines which said:

> but what you are doing is not differentiating between idns having
> been available at the second level for a long time and only now at
> the first level.

I believe I understand the difference. For people using Latin scripts
(for instance in german or french), the fact that the TLD is in ASCII
is not a big issue. For people with non-Latin scripts and, specially
if they write right-to-left, it is a more severe problem to have the
TLD in ASCII. So, allowing IDN in the root is a welcome step.

My point was not that nothing happened in Seoul, just that the ICANN
announcement was NOT the introduction of IDN in the DNS, something
that happened six years ago. 



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From tracyhackshaw at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 13:13:58 2009
From: tracyhackshaw at gmail.com (Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:13:58 -0400
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
 Era
In-Reply-To: <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
	 <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	 <20091101174500.GE8305@sources.org>
	 <194011.97226.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <808a83f60911021013y358bbc16r3b43fecca4284d55@mail.gmail.com>

It's passing strange that the community of potential IDN users - at least
those who were in Seoul last week (where I was) -  including many of those
people mentioned here - seemed to have genuinely and unanimously welcomed
this in spite of the negatives which have appeared in this thread.

BTW, for those who are interested, the public testing of IDNs facilitated by
the dreaded ICANN has been and continues to be available at
http://idn.icann.org/IDNwiki

<http://idn.icann.org/IDNwiki>Within that article are links to the
historical aspects of the IDN process. The historical timeline behind the
approval of the IDN Fast Track (implementation) process (which is what the
Board approved, as opposed to the fundamental issue of IDNs per se is
available thru the following presentation by Baher Esmat of ICANN at
http://www.icann.org/en/topics/idn/idns-internet-week-tunis-aug08.pdf`and
via the presentation of James Seng at APNIC 2009 in Beijing at
http://meetings.apnic.net/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/14009/seng-idn-overview.pdf

See also http://ccnso.icann.org/workinggroups/idncwg.htm

For those who are interested in the next major upcoming change why not take
a look now at the historical process behind the new gTLDs at
http://www.icann.com/en/topics/new-gtlds/history-en.htm

Best wishes.

Tracy

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 8:01 PM, David Goldstein <
goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> So by your reckoning Stephane, the last 6 years were wasted and the testing
> by ICANN was irrelevant?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
> To: David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>
> Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Sent: Mon, 2 November, 2009 4:45:00 AM
> Subject: Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New  Era
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 09:05:42PM -0700,
> David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au> wrote
> a message of 112 lines which said:
>
> > Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
> > domain names is very significant.
>
> So what? Nobody said the opposite. The point is that it is old news,
> it is now six years since the introduction of IDN. ICANN's
> announcement means very little.
>
> > I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
> > outside the square and appreciate this.
>
> Again, what is the relationship with what I wrote?
>
> > Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to
> > ensure IDNs were safe and secure to use.
>
> There was a lot of work for IDN. IETF people for the standardization,
> software authors for the libraries, registry employees for the
> introduction of IDN in their registry, such as .JP or .CN (both were
> among the first). ICANN did nothing significant except spreading FUD
> about mysterious "dangers" and holding expensive meetings.
>
>
>
>  __________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> ____________________________________________________________
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  2 14:19:59 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:19:59 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
Message-ID: <5655433.1257189599358.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  2 14:31:50 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:31:50 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] "Three strikes" in Europe, on Wednesday?
Message-ID: <31694991.1257190310542.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  For your review and consideration:

La Quadrature du Net - For immediate release

Permanent link:
http://www.laquadrature.net/en/three-strikes-in-europe-on-wednesday


"Three strikes" in Europe, on Wednesday?


*** Paris, November 2nd, 2009 - The negotiations on the Telecoms Package
might come to a close on Wednesday. The Council of the European Union is
still pushing for "three strikes" policies in Europe but is also
attempting to allow private corporations to restrict citizens' Internet
access. Will the European Parliament continue to hide behind a
disputable legal argumentation provided by the rapporteur Catherine
Trautmann, and accept the unacceptable for the future of Internet access
in Europe? ***

- ----

A campaign page [1] has been set up to allow everyone to contact Members
of the European Parliament and urge them to refuse any proposal from the
Council allowing "three strikes" policies in Europe, and to explicitly
protect EU citizens' freedom to access the Net.

- ----

The conciliation phase of the Telecoms Package could end on Wednesday,
after the next meeting of the Conciliation delegation for the European
Parliament and another interinstitutional "trialogue" meeting.

The new version of the compromise amendment presented by the Council of
the EU still allows for restrictions of Internet access such as "three
strikes" policies in Europe. Moreover, contrarily to the Parliament's
version, the Council's proposal also permits private corporations to
restrict Internet access [2], notably enabling entertainment industries
to pressure Internet service providers in order to police the Net.

"The Council's position demonstrates that its aim is to obtain a wording
compatible with 'three unproved alleged infringements and you are out of
the Internet' mass sanction policies. Some countries want to install
them by laws, others through privately operated mechanisms. The duty of
the Parliament delegation is to make sure that only a wording that makes
clear that the access to the Internet, a condition of freedom of
expression in today's world, cannot be restricted in such a manner."
comments Philippe Aigrain, strategy adviser for the citizen advocacy
group La Quadrature du Net.

Members of the delegation had on their desks all the elements [3] to
counter the arguments crafted by Mrs. Trautmann with the help of the
EP's legal services in order to drop the strong protection of citizens
voted twice by 88% of the Parliament. However, they decided to ignore
them and missed out on the possibility of rewording [4] the original
amendment 138 to improve its language while preserving its core principles.

"So far, the will of rapporteur Trautmann to quickly wrap up the
Telecoms Package was stronger than the Parliament's commitment to
protecting citizens. The legitimacy of the negotiators and of the
European Parliament as a whole is at stake. What will citizens think if
after having seen their representatives defending them on two occasions
before the elections, when they had everybody's attention, they now
witness the Parliament giving in to the Council in closed-door meetings,
by allowing 'three strikes' schemes and private police of the Net?" asks
Jérémie Zimmermann, spokesperson for La Quadrature du Net.




* Références *

1. Campaign page:
http://www.laquadrature.net/wiki/URGENT_action_Parliament_about_to_authorize_European_three_strikes
2. The Council's wording limits the weak, neutralized protections that
it entails only to "measures taken by Member States" instead of "any
measures", which would include that of private parties. See our analysis
of the different versions of this dangerous wording:
http://www.laquadrature.net/en/an-evolution-of-amendment-138
3. See our memo:
http://www.laquadrature.net/en/improving-amendment-138-while-preserving-its-core-principles
4. See La Quadrature's proposed rewording:
http://www.laquadrature.net/en/indisputable-wording-of-amendment-138


Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  2 14:37:17 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:37:17 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
Message-ID: <18650720.1257190637585.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Izumi and all,

  FYI, China is already and has been doing this for some time.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Izumi AIZU <iza at anr.org>
>Sent: Nov 2, 2009 1:50 AM
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>
>Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
>
>Thanks Milton,
>
>As you can imagine, the process is not an easy one - and will continue
>to be so. One camp wants for competition, another values consistency.
>
>As far as I know, no other ccTLD at this point plans to introduce
>plural registry for the new IDN - all existing registry will also run
>the IDN.  But, I heard that in China, a new registry is being created,
>for the new gTLD, but also they might run for city TLDs such as
>Beijing or Shanghai - the government rep lady said in Sydney said that
>want to introduce competition.
>
>izumi
>
>2009/11/2 Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>:
>> This is really great, Izumi. I spoke with someone from JPRS at the Seoul meeting and she hinted that Japan would take a more open and competitive approach to the IDN fast track. This is a model policy that I wish other countries would follow. Let us know how it works out.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: izumiaizu at gmail.com [mailto:izumiaizu at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Izumi
>>> AIZU
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:44 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; David Goldstein
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
>>> Era
>>>
>>> We are working to introduce a competitive bidding for the registry of
>>> new IDN ccTLD, dot-Nippoin. The uncumbent is allowed to bid for, but
>>> whole idea is to create choice and
>>> competition among, even ccTLDs. It's not an easy task, to make it
>>> open, fair, balanced.
>>> Hence we started Japan Internet Domain Name Council, with bit of
>>> multi-stakeholder
>>> framework, mainly composed of Internet industry associations (four of
>>> them together),
>>> with Consumer body, and the Government sits as "observer".
>>>
>>> izumi
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/11/1, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>:
>>> > Of course, those on this list wouldn't want to get the media hyping this
>>> > event in the way of what was actually claimed.
>>> >
>>> > From the ICANN news release:
>>> > "The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the biggest
>>> > technical change to the Internet since it was created four decades
>>> > ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush.
>>> >
>>> > Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
>>> domain
>>> > names is very significant. Eventually it will probably benefit every
>>> > language that includes a character in addition to A to Z, 0 to 9 and a
>>> dash.
>>> >
>>> > I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
>>> outside
>>> > the square and appreciate this.
>>> >
>>> > Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to ensure
>>> IDNs
>>> > were safe and secure to use. But then, many on this list are loathe to
>>> admit
>>> > such a thing.
>>> >
>>> > Well, I guess bitterness prevails...
>>> >
>>> > David
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>____________________________________________________________
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Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  2 14:46:17 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:46:17 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Federal Judge Says E-mail Not Protected By 4th
Message-ID: <29551292.1257191178012.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Mon Nov  2 14:58:40 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:58:40 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
Message-ID: <21667263.1257191920698.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Ian and all,

  Exactly right in your last comment/sentance Ian!  Spin
doctoring is a favorite past time of ICANN staffers and 
their fellow travelers, as it were.  Policy wonks creat
nothing tangable of value in IT and never have.  Other 
far more knoledgable folks do that work and do it basically
and largely very well, with some excpetions of course.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
>Sent: Oct 31, 2009 5:57 PM
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
>Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New Era
>
>Fouad wrote
>
>>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
>>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.
>
>Very few people who have examined this subject think the Internet was
>created 40 years ago. See
>http://www.nethistory.info/History%20of%20the%20Internet/origins.html
>for an article I wrote when the same group celebrated the "35th
>anniversary". 
>
>I think Stephane's comments are relevant. ICANN's tick on IDNs is welcome
>and overdue, but not ground breaking.
>
>The real credit here does not lie with ICANN, but with people like Dr. John
>Klensin, Dr. Konishi (Japan), Prof. Qian (China), Dr. Kenny Huang (Taiwan),
>and Dr. Ko (Korea), James Seng (Singapore), TanTin Wee, many others. And as
>Stephane states, the breakthrough was five years ago, not now.
>
>But spin doctors create popular history and myths propagate.
>
>
>
>On 1/11/09 12:11 AM, "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer at internatif.org>
>wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 08:22:33PM +0900,
>>  Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote
>>  a message of 109 lines which said:
>> 
>>> The internet regulator ICANN has approved plans to allow
>>> non-Latin-script web addresses,
>> 
>> Unicode characters in domain names have been technically approved in
>> 2003 (with the publication of RFC 3490) and installed first in a TLD a
>> few months later (though I do not remember which TLD was the first
>> one). ICANN, as often, is very late here. We see "non-Latin-script web
>> addresses" for many years.
>> 
>>> a move that is being described as the biggest change to the way the
>>> internet works since it was created 40 years ago.
>> 
>> This is simply ridiculous. More than the creation of the DNS? Or of
>> BGP? Or than the deployment of TCP/IPv4, both non-existent 40 years
>> ago?
>> 
>> ____________________________________________________________
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>
>
>____________________________________________________________
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>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
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Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827


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From shahshah at irnic.ir  Mon Nov  2 15:11:17 2009
From: shahshah at irnic.ir (Siavash Shahshahani)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:41:17 +0330 (IRST)
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New]
Message-ID: <200911022011.nA2KBHjW006785@ns1.irnic.ir>

Izumi, Milton,
Encouraging competition is a noble cause, but before we overdo
congratulating the Japanese initiative and fooling ourselves into
imagining that this model will be emulated necessarily with benign intent,
let us take a realistic look at what is going to happen. Fast track rules
give de facto authority to governments to designate the operating
registry. Looking at the list of likely fast track candidates, it is
apparent that in most cases the registry is a govt monopoly and the govt
will continue to exercise its 'sovereign right' by designating either a
govt agency or a subservient organization. In the few cases where the
incumbent is an  independent entity and the govt has not been able to
re-delegate on account of the good work of the registry and its support by
the community, this will give the govt a golden opportunity to exercise
arbitrary authority (not the Japanese model). And let us not forget that
much of the real work that made IDN possible was carried out by these
incumbent registries. It is time their efforts are acknowledged and given
due weight in the selection.
Siavash

> Thanks Milton,
>
> As you can imagine, the process is not an easy one - and will continue
> to be so. One camp wants for competition, another values consistency.
>
> As far as I know, no other ccTLD at this point plans to introduce
> plural registry for the new IDN - all existing registry will also run
> the IDN.  But, I heard that in China, a new registry is being created,
> for the new gTLD, but also they might run for city TLDs such as
> Beijing or Shanghai - the government rep lady said in Sydney said that
> want to introduce competition.
>
> izumi
>
> 2009/11/2 Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>:
>> This is really great, Izumi. I spoke with someone from JPRS at the Seoul
>> meeting and she hinted that Japan would take a more open and competitive
>> approach to the IDN fast track. This is a model policy that I wish other
>> countries would follow. Let us know how it works out.
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: izumiaizu at gmail.com [mailto:izumiaizu at gmail.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Izumi
>>> AIZU
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:44 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; David Goldstein
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A
>>> New
>>> Era
>>>
>>> We are working to introduce a competitive bidding for the registry of
>>> new IDN ccTLD, dot-Nippoin. The uncumbent is allowed to bid for, but
>>> whole idea is to create choice and
>>> competition among, even ccTLDs. It's not an easy task, to make it
>>> open, fair, balanced.
>>> Hence we started Japan Internet Domain Name Council, with bit of
>>> multi-stakeholder
>>> framework, mainly composed of Internet industry associations (four of
>>> them together),
>>> with Consumer body, and the Government sits as "observer".
>>>
>>> izumi
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/11/1, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>:
>>> > Of course, those on this list wouldn't want to get the media hyping
>>> this
>>> > event in the way of what was actually claimed.
>>> >
>>> > From the ICANN news release:
>>> > "The coming introduction of non-Latin characters represents the
>>> biggest
>>> > technical change to the Internet since it was created four decades
>>> > ago," said ICANN chairman Peter Dengate Thrush.
>>> >
>>> > Giving people whose language is not Latin-based the ability to use
>>> domain
>>> > names is very significant. Eventually it will probably benefit every
>>> > language that includes a character in addition to A to Z, 0 to 9 and
>>> a
>>> dash.
>>> >
>>> > I guess many of those whose languages are Latin-based can't think
>>> outside
>>> > the square and appreciate this.
>>> >
>>> > Whether you like ICANN or not, there was a lot of work done to ensure
>>> IDNs
>>> > were safe and secure to use. But then, many on this list are loathe
>>> to
>>> admit
>>> > such a thing.
>>> >
>>> > Well, I guess bitterness prevails...
>>> >
>>> > David
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>


-------------------------------------------------
IPM/IRNIC
P.O.Box 19395-5564, Shahid Bahonar Sq.
Tehran 19548, Iran
Phone: (+98 21) 22 82 80 80; 22 82 80 81, ext 113
Cell: (+98 912)104 2501
Fax: (+98 21) 22 29 57 00
Email: shahshah at irnic.ir, shahshah at nic.ir
-----------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------------
IPM/IRNIC
P.O.Box 19395-5564, Shahid Bahonar Sq.
Tehran 19548, Iran
Phone: (+98 21) 22 82 80 80; 22 82 80 81, ext 113
Cell: (+98 912)104 2501
Fax: (+98 21) 22 29 57 00
Email: shahshah at irnic.ir, shahshah at nic.ir
-----------------------------------------------

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From iza at anr.org  Mon Nov  2 22:40:09 2009
From: iza at anr.org (Izumi AIZU)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:40:09 +0900
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New
In-Reply-To: <p06200711c714407f1359@121.160.183.252>
References: <C7131A12.78B1%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <461279.52875.qm@web58908.mail.re1.yahoo.com> 
	<a5509d940910312243o461a6dc4mb736752206a5c8aa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD14DE@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu> 
	<a5509d940911012350h3e117844qb550d0b6e81fabdb@mail.gmail.com> 
	<p06200711c714407f1359@121.160.183.252>
Message-ID: <a5509d940911021940h5a24ed4pd17a3bb54cd643e4@mail.gmail.com>

2009/11/2 George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at gmail.com>:
> Izumi,
>
> [I am in Korea and for some unknown rason, I am unable to send from the
> account that the list accepts.  So even though this is also addressed to the
> list, it will be rejected.  Please make sure that the text below also gets
> to the list, with your response.  Thanks!]
>
> If I understand you correctly, the planned competitive bidding would imply
> that someone initially controls the name and will receive the money
> resulting from the highest bid.
>
> To my knowledge, the ICANN ccNSO is not accepting competitive bids, is it?

I have not heard about that, but I am not knowledgeable about ccNSO.
 I do appreciate if you could show me the reference.
And I am not sure how much ccNSO has the jurisdiction over the
selection of ccTLD manager.

Maybe I should not have used the word "bid". There will be a competitive
selection, based on certain criteria set forth by the Telecommunication
Council of the MIC, which was composed of professors, business leaders
and consumer group expert, and by a selection committee that will
be established by Japan Internet Domain Name Council (JIDNC).
JIDNC may charge some fee for application and also to the winner,
but there are processing fee and no surplus is expected.

By the way, I am not "representing" JIDNC, but one member of its steering
committee. So this is just my personal observation.

The result of the selection committee will be endorsed first by JIDNC
and then by the Ministry so that ICANN will approve it. The latter is in line
with the IDN ccTLD Fast Track procedure.

After one year of operation, JIDNC is tasked to carry out the oversight/
audit function for the new registry is in compliant with the public interest.
Terms and conditions for this task is not yet set precisely. Certain fee
for the audit may be imposed to the selected registry.

>  That leads me to two questions:
>
> 1. Who gets the money and what degrees of freedom will they have to use it?

So this is not quite the valid question at this moment as no surplus
is expected for the selection.

>
> 2. What is the implication for an increase in registrant prices in this
> domain?

I am not clear about the question. "increase in registrant prices" for
the new IDN ccTLD, or to the existing ccTLD, dot jp?  In any case,
the new IDN price is nowhere decided as the registry is not there yet,
and dot jp prices has nothing to do with the IDN at this moment.
Maybe I misunderstand the intent of your question.

>
> Please note that I speak for myself here and not for ICANN.

I also speak for only myself.  But thank you for the question.

izumi

>
> Regards,
>
> George
>
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From iza at anr.org  Mon Nov  2 22:52:25 2009
From: iza at anr.org (Izumi AIZU)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:52:25 +0900
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New]
In-Reply-To: <200911022011.nA2KBHjW006785@ns1.irnic.ir>
References: <200911022011.nA2KBHjW006785@ns1.irnic.ir>
Message-ID: <a5509d940911021952n37521d8ah3c4f3353a60a96c3@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Siavash and all,

You are right. The Japanese case is not by any means a model
to be followed by others. Each ccTLD has its own situation and
while we/they can exchange best practices, there should not be
one uniform way. In the case of Japan, ccTLD has been in the
private sector, and Government has little say in reality.
This time, we tried a kind of "multi-stakeholder" where government
participate, as "observer" for the selection itself. We are tasked
to be open, fair, and transparent.

In the case of IDN ccTLD, it is true that the government has
the final say to select or endorse who will be the registry,
before ICANN approves it to follow the standard IANA delegation
process. That is, in my shallow understanding, even the government
says  "this is the registry" they need, in theory, to prove that the
consensus is there among local Internet community.

Like ccTLD situation, the understanding and actions of
governments around Internet issues are also very different
and diverse globally, some are more democratic and
others are not at all. So depending on that situation
things vary a lot I understand.

izumi

2009/11/3 Siavash Shahshahani <shahshah at irnic.ir>:
> Izumi, Milton,
> Encouraging competition is a noble cause, but before we overdo
> congratulating the Japanese initiative and fooling ourselves into
> imagining that this model will be emulated necessarily with benign intent,
> let us take a realistic look at what is going to happen. Fast track rules
> give de facto authority to governments to designate the operating
> registry. Looking at the list of likely fast track candidates, it is
> apparent that in most cases the registry is a govt monopoly and the govt
> will continue to exercise its 'sovereign right' by designating either a
> govt agency or a subservient organization. In the few cases where the
> incumbent is an  independent entity and the govt has not been able to
> re-delegate on account of the good work of the registry and its support by
> the community, this will give the govt a golden opportunity to exercise
> arbitrary authority (not the Japanese model). And let us not forget that
> much of the real work that made IDN possible was carried out by these
> incumbent registries. It is time their efforts are acknowledged and given
> due weight in the selection.
> Siavash
>
>> Thanks Milton,
>>
>> As you can imagine, the process is not an easy one - and will continue
>> to be so. One camp wants for competition, another values consistency.
>>
>> As far as I know, no other ccTLD at this point plans to introduce
>> plural registry for the new IDN - all existing registry will also run
>> the IDN.  But, I heard that in China, a new registry is being created,
>> for the new gTLD, but also they might run for city TLDs such as
>> Beijing or Shanghai - the government rep lady said in Sydney said that
>> want to introduce competition.
>>
>> izumi
>>
>> 2009/11/2 Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>:
>>> This is really great, Izumi. I spoke with someone from JPRS at the Seoul
>>> meeting and she hinted that Japan would take a more open and competitive
>>> approach to the IDN fast track. This is a model policy that I wish other
>>> countries would follow. Let us know how it works out.
>>>
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From siliconvalley2005 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  3 03:12:51 2009
From: siliconvalley2005 at yahoo.com (annan ebenezer)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 00:12:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme -
Message-ID: <510136.85634.qm@web110216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Hi All,
 what is the next  internet  governance capacity building program? I have been following this for some time but have not gotten any feedback.
still waiting, 
 
ebenezer
 
thank





      
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From mariliamaciel at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 06:03:24 2009
From: mariliamaciel at gmail.com (Marilia Maciel)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:03:24 -0200
Subject: [governance] Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme -
In-Reply-To: <510136.85634.qm@web110216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <510136.85634.qm@web110216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f7e605ab0911030303o7e76af53kca0ec36a7f24b5cb@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ebenezer.

The next Internet Governance Capacity building program organized by Diplo
should start in April or May. We will make sure that the call for
applications will be sent to this list.
You can also be informed about this and other courses in the website
www.diplomacy.edu

Best wishes!

Marilia

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:12 AM, annan ebenezer
<siliconvalley2005 at yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>  what is the next  internet  governance capacity building program? I have
> been following this for some time but have not gotten any feedback.
> still waiting,
>
> ebenezer
>
> thank
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
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>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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>


-- 
Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
FGV Direito Rio

Center of Technology and Society
Getulio Vargas Foundation
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 08:29:41 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:29:41 +0500
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
 France?
Message-ID: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com>

Reading the news piece from BBC below leaves me thinking that what is
the definition of a Pirate, a person who shares with his family,
friends, people, community? The definition stands vague especially
when one hasn't been derived and mutually understood by the
international community thus leaving space for extreme human rights
violations:

Sharing for information purposes only:

>From BBC News Website:

Government to cut off web pirates
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8329915.stm

The Business Secretary Lord Mandelson says legislation will be drafted
to disconnect illegal file sharers from the internet. Speaking at a
government-sponsored forum he said the UK would introduce a similar
policy to France. It means persistent pirates will be sent two warning
letters before facing disconnection from the network.

READ MORE: Net pirates to be 'disconnected'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8328820.stm

-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
@skBajwa
Answering all your technology questions
http://www.askbajwa.com
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 08:43:58 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:13:58 -0430
Subject: [governance] Nominations for co-coordinator of IGC list
Message-ID: <4AF0339E.7070104@gmail.com>

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From ajp at glocom.ac.jp  Tue Nov  3 08:49:04 2009
From: ajp at glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:49:04 +0900
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f31ae3560911030549m5bcb4888n3eae7daa8232aa91@mail.gmail.com>

Also from the BBC, "File-sharers are big spenders too"

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8337887.stm>

Adam




On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:
> Reading the news piece from BBC below leaves me thinking that what is
> the definition of a Pirate, a person who shares with his family,
> friends, people, community? The definition stands vague especially
> when one hasn't been derived and mutually understood by the
> international community thus leaving space for extreme human rights
> violations:
>
> Sharing for information purposes only:
>
> From BBC News Website:
>
> Government to cut off web pirates
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8329915.stm
>
> The Business Secretary Lord Mandelson says legislation will be drafted
> to disconnect illegal file sharers from the internet. Speaking at a
> government-sponsored forum he said the UK would introduce a similar
> policy to France. It means persistent pirates will be sent two warning
> letters before facing disconnection from the network.
>
> READ MORE: Net pirates to be 'disconnected'
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8328820.stm
>
> --
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> @skBajwa
> Answering all your technology questions
> http://www.askbajwa.com
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
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>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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From edmanix at gmail.com  Tue Nov  3 08:53:22 2009
From: edmanix at gmail.com (Emmanuel Edet)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:53:22 +0100
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e@mail.gmail.com>

Law enforcement or censorship?

Regards

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:
> Reading the news piece from BBC below leaves me thinking that what is
> the definition of a Pirate, a person who shares with his family,
> friends, people, community? The definition stands vague especially
> when one hasn't been derived and mutually understood by the
> international community thus leaving space for extreme human rights
> violations:
>
> Sharing for information purposes only:
>
> From BBC News Website:
>
> Government to cut off web pirates
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8329915.stm
>
> The Business Secretary Lord Mandelson says legislation will be drafted
> to disconnect illegal file sharers from the internet. Speaking at a
> government-sponsored forum he said the UK would introduce a similar
> policy to France. It means persistent pirates will be sent two warning
> letters before facing disconnection from the network.
>
> READ MORE: Net pirates to be 'disconnected'
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8328820.stm
>
> --
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> @skBajwa
> Answering all your technology questions
> http://www.askbajwa.com
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
emmanuel
Happiness is good health and a bad memory."
- Ingrid Bergman (1917-1982)
http://ictlegal.blogspot.com/
(Professional)http://eteakamba.blogspot.com/ (Personal)
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From katitza at datos-personales.org  Tue Nov  3 11:59:20 2009
From: katitza at datos-personales.org (Katitza Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:59:20 +0100
Subject: [governance] URGENT: The ACTA Internet Chapter: Putting the Pieces
 Together
References: <B2DA413D-E998-47AE-9A67-DA9CBA991C28@datos-personales.org>
Message-ID: <08FF0767-53BF-4441-83C0-98F890CB6154@datos-personales.org>


http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4510/125/

The Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement negotations continue in a few  
hours as Seoul, Korea plays host to the latest round of talks.  The  
governments have posted the meeting agenda, which unsurprisingly  
focuses on the issue of Internet enforcement.  The United States has  
drafted the chapter under enormous secrecy, with selected groups  
granted access under strict non-disclosure agreements and other  
countries (including Canada) given physical, watermarked copies  
designed to guard against leaks.

Despite the efforts to combat leaks, information on the Internet  
chapter has begun to emerge (just as they did with the other elements  
of the treaty).  Sources say that the draft text, modeled on the U.S.- 
South Korea free trade agreement, focuses on following five issues:

1.   Baseline obligations inspired by Article 41 of the TRIPs which  
focuses on the enforcement of intellectual property.

2.   A requirement to establish third-party liability for copyright  
infringement.

3.   Restrictions on limitations to 3rd party liability (ie. limited  
safe harbour rules for ISPs).  For example, in order for ISPs to  
qualify for a safe harbour, they would be required establish policies  
to deter unauthorized storage and transmission of IP infringing  
content.  Provisions are modeled under the U.S.-Korea Free Trade  
Agreement, namely Article 18.10.30.  They include policies to  
terminate subscribers in appropriate circumstances.  Notice-and- 
takedown, which is not currently the law in Canada nor a requirement  
under WIPO, would also be an ACTA requirement.

4.   Anti-circumvention legislation that establishes a WIPO+ model by  
adopting both the WIPO Internet Treaties and the language currently  
found in U.S. free trade agreements that go beyond the WIPO treaty  
requirements.  For example, the U.S.-South Korea free trade agreement  
specifies the permitted exceptions to anti-circumvention rules.  These  
follow the DMCA model (reverse engineering, computer testing, privacy,  
etc.) and do not include a fair use/fair dealing exception.  Moreover,  
the free trade agreement clauses also include a requirement to ban the  
distribution of circumvention devices.  The current draft does not  
include any obligation to ensure interoperability of DRM.

5.   Rights Management provisions, also modeled on U.S. free trade  
treaty language.

If accurate (and these provisions are consistent with the U.S.  
approach for the past few years in bilateral trade negotations) the  
combined effect of these provisions would to be to dramatically  
reshape Canadian copyright law and to eliminate sovereign choice on  
domestic copyright policy.  Having just concluded a national copyright  
consultation, these issues were at the heart of thousands of  
submissions.  If Canada agrees to these ACTA terms, flexibility in  
WIPO implementation (as envisioned by the treaty) would be lost and  
Canada would be forced to implement a host of new reforms (this is  
precisely what U.S. lobbyists have said they would like to see  
happen).  In other words, the very notion of a made-in-Canada approach  
to copyright would be gone.

The Internet chapter raises two additional issues.  On the  
international front, it provides firm confirmation that the treaty is  
not a counterfeiting trade, but a copyright treaty.  These provisions  
involve copyright policy as no reasonable definition of counterfeiting  
would include these kinds of provisions.  On the domestic front, it  
raises serious questions about the Canadian negotiation mandate.   
Negotations from Foreign Affairs are typically constrained by either  
domestic law, a bill before the House of Commons, or the negotiation  
mandate letter.  Since these provisions dramatically exceed current  
Canadian law and are not found in any bill presently before the House,  
Canadians should be asking whether the negotiation mandate letter has  
envisioned such dramatic changes to domestic copyright law.  When  
combined with the other chapters that include statutory damages,  
search and seizure powers for border guards, anti-camcording rules,  
and mandatory disclosure of personal information requirements, it is  
clear that there is no bigger IP issue today than the Anti- 
Counterfeiting Trade Agreement being negotiated behind closed doors  
this week in Korea.
_______________________________________________
Coalition mailing list
Coalition at mailman.thepublicvoice.org
http://mailman.thepublicvoice.org/listinfo.cgi/coalition-thepublicvoice.org

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From mueller at syr.edu  Tue Nov  3 12:57:17 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:57:17 -0500
Subject: [governance] Re: IDN's Internationalized Domain Names - A New]
In-Reply-To: <200911022011.nA2KBHjW006785@ns1.irnic.ir>
References: <200911022011.nA2KBHjW006785@ns1.irnic.ir>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6E93@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Siavash Shahshahani [mailto:shahshah at irnic.ir] 
> Izumi, Milton,
> Encouraging competition is a noble cause, but before we overdo
> congratulating the Japanese initiative and fooling ourselves into
> imagining that this model will be emulated necessarily with 
> benign intent,let us take a realistic look at what is going to 
> happen. Fast track rules give de facto authority to governments 
> to designate the operating registry. Looking at the list of 
> likely fast track candidates, it is apparent that in most cases 
> the registry is a govt monopoly and the govt
> will continue to exercise its 'sovereign right' by 
> designating either a govt agency or a subservient organization.

This is precisely why I am not enthusiastic about the fast track.

> In the few cases where the
> incumbent is an  independent entity and the govt has not been able to
> re-delegate on account of the good work of the registry and 
> its support by the community, this will give the govt a golden opportunity 
> to exercise arbitrary authority (not the Japanese model). 

Yes, you are probably right. 

> And let us not forget that much of the real work that made 
> IDN possible was carried out by these incumbent registries. 
> It is time their efforts are acknowledged and given
> due weight in the selection.

You are giving us a very mixed message, Siavash. ;-) 
It's ok, I can understand why.

--MM
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Tue Nov  3 15:55:08 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:55:08 +0000
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
In-Reply-To: <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com>
 <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Y$tmGWwsiJ8KFATw@perry.co.uk>

In message 
<f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e at mail.gmail.com>, at 
14:53:22 on Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Emmanuel Edet <edmanix at gmail.com> writes
>Law enforcement or censorship?

It's definitely censorship. The government regards pop music as 
undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it.

The people making the music would just like the audience to pay for it, 
but have reckoned without the "everything on the Internet must be free 
of charge" clause in the Human Rights Convention.
-- 
Roland Perry
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov  3 16:07:36 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:07:36 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
Message-ID: <17864156.1257282456811.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Roland and all,

-----Original Message-----
>From: Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
>Sent: Nov 3, 2009 2:55 PM
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
>
>In message 
><f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e at mail.gmail.com>, at 
>14:53:22 on Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Emmanuel Edet <edmanix at gmail.com> writes
>>Law enforcement or censorship?
>
>It's definitely censorship. The government regards pop music as 
>undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it.

  I think this is a bit overstated.
>
>The people making the music would just like the audience to pay for it, 
>but have reckoned without the "everything on the Internet must be free 
>of charge" clause in the Human Rights Convention.

Than perhaps they should find another dilivery system for their
product.  This sounds alot like an RIAA rant in my country.
>-- 
>Roland Perry
>____________________________________________________________
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>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
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Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov  3 16:16:38 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:16:38 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Fw: Weekly AG Columns from Attorney General Abbott
Message-ID: <17033456.1257282998728.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Dear Atty. General and all,

  I am sharing this with some other folks in hopes that it will
have a positive effect and in an indirect manner provide for
an example of how ICANN for instance has perhaps enguaged in
similar practices in the past, but for whatever reason or 
reasons unknown, have been able to skirt scrutinity for same
even though multipul examples of such by ICANN accredited
registrars, ect., have been voluminously and frequently
exposed and provided to the appropriate legal authorities
accordingly.

-----Forwarded Message-----
>From: Texas Attorney General <webmaster at oag.state.tx.us>
>Sent: Nov 3, 2009 1:09 PM
>To: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
>Subject: Weekly AG Columns from Attorney General Abbott
>
>Weekly AG Columns - November 2009
>
>Understanding the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act 
>Criminal, Civil Medicaid Fraud Teams Protect Texas Taxpayers 
>Office of the Attorney General Reaches Out to Military Families 
>Child Support Evader Michelle Falco 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Understanding the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act
>by Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott
>
>“Our remedy cures arthritis and cancer in seven days!”
>
>“Resolve your outstanding debts! With our product, you’ll only have to pay your creditors 30 percent of what you owe!”
>
>When a vendor or salesman uses false statements, duress, exaggerations or misleading advertisements to win a Texan’s business, he or she violates the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act (DTPA).
>
>Vendors may violate the DTPA by claiming their product does something it does not or cannot do. In April, the Office of the Attorney General (OAG) charged the California based 1 Freedom, Inc., with violating the DTPA for selling supplies and instructions on how to install devices that promised to convert water to fuel, reduce fuel costs, increase gas mileage and enhance engine performance. Investigators have discovered no evidence that 1 Freedom’s claims are true.
>
>Companies also violate the DTPA when they take advantage of a customer’s lack of knowledge or language comprehension. In March, the OAG reached an agreement with a Houston auto dealer after customers complained that they were misled into signing lease agreements when they believed they were actually purchasing vehicles. Investigators learned that salespeople targeted customers who did not speak and read English well.
>
>The OAG protects Texans by filing civil enforcement actions under the DTPA and other consumer protection statutes. Businesses must comply with the law when they interact with customers.
>
>Complaints filed with the OAG may form the basis for a state investigation into a company’s business practices. In some cases, significant numbers of complaints about a business may give rise to legal action to enforce state law and protect the public interest. The decision to investigate or take legal action is based on a number of factors.
>
>Enforcement actions are filed on behalf of the State of Texas and the public good. The OAG cannot represent individual Texans, but some legal actions do produce restitution for customers. For example, in April, the OAG reached an agreement with the owners of Extreme Fitness and Wellness, Inc., who were court-ordered to repay hundreds of customers who pre-paid their gym membership dues. The owners of the Lubbock fitness spa violated the DTPA by collecting about $40,700 in advance membership dues for a health club that never opened.
>
>The DTPA covers the sale, lease and distribution of nearly all goods and services, with the exception of professional advice. Providers of professional advice would not be cited under the DTPA if opinions they give clients turn out to be “wrong.” For example, an attorney could not be sued for deceptive trade practices for advising a client to file a lawsuit that ultimately failed.
>
>Consumer education is a vital part of the OAG’s mission. The best consumer protection is widespread public awareness of consumer rights and common scams. Texans who believe they have been subject to deceptive trade practices should file a complaint with the OAG and retain as much evidence of wrongdoing as possible, including brochures, advertisements, records of related transactions and notes about conversations with company representatives.
>
>Texans who relied on a deceptive practice to their detriment also should make every effort to remedy the situation with the vendor. They should send a certified, return receipt letter to the vendor outlining the problem and what the company should do to make the situation right. If that fails, Texans may also consider suing in small claims court or consulting an attorney about civil litigation.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Points to Remember
>DECEPTIVE TRADE PRACTICES ACT
>
>Examples of deceptive trade practices include:
>
>• False or misleading advertising 
>• Exaggerating or misrepresenting the benefits or endorsements of a product or service 
>• Making false statements about the manufacture or origin of a good/service 
>• Passing off used products as new ones 
>• Lying about the need for repairs or parts 
>• Making false, negative accusations toward a competitor 
>• Price gouging in the wake of a disaster or catastrophe
>
>The Office of the Attorney General may take legal action to enforce state consumer protection laws. To file a complaint, contact:
>
>Office of Attorney General
>Consumer Protection Division Hotline
>(800) 252-8011
>www.texasattorneygeneral.gov
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>Criminal, Civil Medicaid Fraud Teams Protect Texas Taxpayers
>by Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott
>
>The Office of the Attorney General (OAG) is committed to protecting taxpayers. With that goal in mind, we are focused on eliminating waste, fraud and abuse in the $21 billion Medicaid program, which provides taxpayer-funded health care to low income Texans.
>
>There are two fronts to our ongoing battle against Medicaid fraud.
>
>On the criminal side, the Medicaid Fraud Control Unit (MFCU) investigates and prosecutes health care providers and vendors who bill taxpayers for services that were never rendered. The criminal component of our Medicaid fraud prevention team includes 147 investigators and investigative auditors, of which 58 are commissioned peace officers who conduct complex fraud investigations from nine field offices across the state. 
>
>One important aspect of the MFCU’s investigative work focuses on protecting Medicaid patients who reside in nursing homes. Together with local law enforcement officials, the MFCU has conducted criminal investigations into illegal conduct by nursing home employees who neglected or abused their patients. We have also cracked down on staff members who abused their positions by stealing from their elderly patients’ bank accounts. These enforcement efforts both protect nursing home patients and ensure that taxpayers are not footing the bill for illegal conduct.
>
>Our work to reduce improper Medicaid expenditures has a civil component as well. In 1997, the Texas Legislature passed a law that encourages whistleblowers to expose – and therefore prevent – unlawful billing practices by Medicaid vendors. Thanks to a legislatively mandated expansion in 1997, our Civil Medicaid Fraud (CMF) section has become an entire division with more than 50 employees.  
>
>The majority of CMF cases pursued in Texas state courts involve the improper reporting of drug prices by pharmaceutical companies. State and federal law requires that drug manufacturers report the prices at which they sell their products to various providers, including pharmacies, wholesalers and distributors. The Texas Medicaid program uses this pricing information to estimate the costs Medicaid providers pay to acquire the drug manufacturers’ products. Medicaid providers bill the state run program for these costs – so the program uses the sales data to ensure taxpayers get the best possible price. Medicaid providers bill the state run program for these costs, plus prescription dispensing fees, and Medicaid reimburses the providers. When a manufacturer reports inflated prices, the taxpayers are paying too much for Medicaid provided prescription drugs.
>
>Nationally, most of the cases alleging Medicaid fraud involve illegal marketing practices such as off label marketing and kickbacks. Off label marketing occurs when a drug manufacturer markets a drug for purposes other than those approved by law, primarily those approved by the Food and Drug Administration. CMF participates in national investigations of this conduct, and is also leading the nation in actively litigating against manufacturers who illegally market their products.
>
>CMF is also pursuing matters against manufacturers of unsafe products and pharmacy benefit managers that fail to comply with Texas’ Medicaid laws and regulations. 
>
>Based upon its proven track record of successful cases and landmark settlements, CMF has established itself nationwide as a leader in the ongoing fight against Medicaid fraud and abuse.
>
>Hard working taxpayers help their less fortunate neighbors by funding the Medicaid program. So it is critical that each and every Medicaid dollar be spent providing health care to indigent Texans – not funding fraudulent schemes. That is why civil litigators, criminal prosecutors and commissioned peace officers come to work at the Office of the Attorney General every day, where they work tirelessly to reduce waste, fraud, and abuse in the Medicaid program.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Points to Remember
>Protecting Texans from Medicaid Fraud
>
>Report financial exploitation or physical abuse or neglect of a resident in a Medicaid-funded facility:
>
>Medicaid Fraud Control Unit	
>Office of the Attorney General
>(512) 463-2011
>E-mail: mfcu at oag.state.tx.us
>
>Texas Department of Aging and Disability Services
>(800) 458-9858
>
>For more information on the Medicaid Fraud Control Unit or other senior issues:
>Office of the Attorney General
>(800) 252-8011
>
>For Nursing Home Ombudsman assistance and benefits counseling:
>Texas Department of Aging and Disability Services Area Agencies on Aging
>(800) 252-9240
>www.dads.state.tx.us
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>Office of the Attorney General Reaches Out to Military Families
>by Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott
>
>The Office of the Attorney General (OAG) recognizes the sacrifices that military families make in service to our country. We want to do our part by making sure single parents in the military know the OAG’s Child Support Division can help them obtain financial and medical support for their children. Services include:
>
>• locating absent parents;
>• establishing paternity;
>• establishing, enforcing and modifying child and medical support orders; and
>• collecting and distributing child support payments.
>
>Applications for child support services can be obtained by visiting Child Support Interactive on the main Attorney General Web site at www.texasattorneygeneral.gov or by calling our 24 hour voice response system at (800) 252-8014.
>
>Under certain circumstances, the Child Support Division helps parents modify their child support order. Parents entering or leaving military service may experience a change in income. For military parents, either an increase or a decrease in pay is considered a material and substantial change that may warrant a modification to the order. Visit the child support section of the Attorney General Web site to learn more. Parents who feel their circumstances may qualify for a modification can download a form requesting that the child support office review their case.   
>
>Children need more than child and medical support from the parent without custody. It is important to a child’s wellbeing that both parents stay involved in their lives. Our office helps parents who are engaged in custody or visitation disputes by partnering with local organizations to provide access and visitation services, including co-parenting education, alternative dispute resolution, development of parenting plans, supervised visitation and visitation enforcement. For more information about access and visitation programs throughout Texas, visit the child support section of the Attorney General’s Web site and select Access and Visitation Help.
>
>The Access and Visitation Hotline is one resource available to parents from anywhere in Texas. The hotline is the only one of its kind in the nation that provides parents with free phone access to attorneys, who offer legal information and assistance related to child custody and visitation issues, as well as paternity and child support information. Hotline attorneys do not represent parents; rather, they provide tools and guidance, and answer parents’ questions. The statewide toll-free number is answered in English and Spanish, Monday – Friday from 1 to 7 p.m. The hotline has a corresponding Web site www.txaccess.org where parents can download sample materials and tools for assistance with child support issues.
>
>In addition, the OAG, in collaboration with the Texas Access to Justice Foundation (TAJF), offers free legal clinics to parents who need help understanding their visitation orders. The desire to increase positive, safe, shared parenting led the OAG to work with TAJF to develop a statewide project to help parents with visitation questions. The Parenting Order Legal Clinics, also known as POLC, are held monthly at locations across the state. The two hour clinics are led by experienced attorneys who are trained to address parents’ access and visitation concerns. To view a calendar of upcoming clinics, go to the child support section of the Attorney General’s Web site and select Access and Visitation Help.
>
>The Office of the Attorney General would like to thank service members and their families for the sacrifices they make each day to serve and protect our nation. 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Points To Remember
>Reaching Out to Military Families
>
>Apply for child support services by visiting Child Support Interactive on the main Attorney General Web site at www.texasattorneygeneral.gov or by calling the 24 hour voice response system at (800) 252-8014
>
>Contact your local child support office to request a review and adjustment of your child support order, if you are a noncustodial parent who experiences a change in income due to your military activation
>
>The Access and Visitation Hotline’s toll free number, (866) 292-4636, is answered in English and Spanish, Monday – Friday from 1 to 7 p.m.
>
>The OAG, in collaboration with the Texas Access to Justice Foundation, offers free Parenting Order Legal Clinics to help parents understand visitation orders.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
>Child Support Evader Michelle Falco
>by Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott
>
>Attorney General Greg Abbott needs your help locating Child Support Evader Michelle Falco, one of the Most Wanted Child Support Evaders in Texas. Falco, who was added to the Child Support Evader’s list in May 2009, owes $50,109 for the care of two children from the Dallas area.
>
>In 1994, Falco was ordered to make child support payments of $276 per month. Falco, who had the ability to make her payments, did not follow the court’s order to support her children financially. At a September 2005 enforcement hearing, she was found to owe more than $40,000. In May 2008, after being given many opportunities to obey the civil court order to pay child support, a Dallas County grand jury indicted Falco for criminal nonsupport. 
>
>Falco has not made a single payment in more than two years. By refusing to provide the financial resources her children need, Falco has turned her back on her children and violated the law. A combination of missed payments and interest that accrues on unpaid child support adds up to more than $50,000 in unpaid child support Falco now owes.  
>
>Investigators from the Office of the Attorney General have searched the state for Falco. Her last known address was in Algonquin, IL. She is reported to be traveling with two small children – a girl, age seven and a boy, age six. Falco may be working for cash or self-employed to avoid garnishment of wages to pay child support. Contact the Attorney General’s Office at (866) EVADERS (382-3377) to report information that may lead to the arrest of Michelle Falco.
>
>
>Last Address: Algonquin, IL
>Occupation: General Labor
>Born: 7/20/69 
>Height: 5’8” 
>Weight: 130 lbs. 
>Color of Eyes: Blue
>Color of Hair: Brown 
>Race: Caucasian
>Distinguishing Marks: Tribal tattoo from neck to hip 
>Alias: 	Michelle Schall, Michell Blender, Michelle Tipler 
>
>Texas law requires the Office of the Attorney General to publicly identify certain parents who are delinquent in the payment of child support. The Child Support Evaders are selected because they have the ability to take responsibility for their children but refuse to do so.  Incarceration is the only option for parents who repeatedly ignore court orders to pay child support.  The Attorney General’s Office helps parents who lack the ability to pay child support by referring them to job training and employment services.
>
>Visit the agency’s Web site www.texasattorneygeneral.gov to find out about other Child Support Evaders, and to obtain information about the Attorney General’s Child Support Division.
>
>Most Wanted Evaders
>
>For a parent to be named as a Most Wanted Child Support Evader:
>• Court-ordered delinquent support must be in excess of $5,000
>• Arrest warrant must have been issued for non support
>• Location of noncustodial parent is unknown
>• Parent has not made any payments in the last six months
>• Noncustodial parent must not be involved in bankruptcy proceedings
>• Noncustodial parent must not be receiving welfare benefits
>
>In order to make child support information public, the custodial parent must sign a confidentiality waiver.
>(866) EVADERS (382-3377)
>www.texasattorneygeneral.gov
>
>****
>You have received this e-mail from the Office of the Attorney General because you have subscribed to this topic on our website.  We do not sell our subscriber list to anyone, and do not acquire lists from third parties; we only send to persons who have subscribed themselves via our website.
>
>You may unsubscribe from this list, review your subscriptions, or change your e-mail address on file, by logging into this page: http://www.oag.state.tx.us/listserv/login.php (your e-mail address is your user-id).
>
>You may also call (800-252-8011) or write: P.O. Box 12548, Austin, TX 78711-2548.
>
>We hope that you find this system useful. Please send any concerns or comments you may have to: webmaster at oag.state.tx.us
>
>

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Tue Nov  3 16:23:32 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:23:32 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] European Commission Wants UK to Beef Up Privacy
Message-ID: <15375748.1257283412331.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  Here our INEGroup members agree and I hope that the IGF/IGC does
as well.  Problem is that it seems that P2P and abuses by ICANN
registrars on a nearly daily basis are excluded.  One is surely
compelled to wonder why?  Seems also that the UK in particular
as a member of the EU is taking a more nationalistic position here...

See:
(November 2, 2009)
The European Commission says that the UK government has not adequately
protected citizens' privacy.  The concerns centers on 2006 and 2007
trials of the Phorm targeted behavioral advertising technology in which
people were not informed that their surfing habits were being tracked.
European Union telecommunications commissioner Viviane Reding wants "the
UK authorities to change their national laws to ensure that British
citizens fully benefit from the safeguards set out in EU law concerning
confidentiality of electronic communications." The UK has two months to
respond to the Commission's letter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8337685.stm


Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
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     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au  Tue Nov  3 17:15:59 2009
From: goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au (David Goldstein)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:15:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
In-Reply-To: <Y$tmGWwsiJ8KFATw@perry.co.uk>
References: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com> <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e@mail.gmail.com> <Y$tmGWwsiJ8KFATw@perry.co.uk>
Message-ID: <348941.67372.qm@web58904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Now that's one of the biggest loads of bollocks... that "government regards pop music as undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it." What planet are you on? What century are you living in? Mid-20th century?




----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 7:55:08 AM
Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following

In message <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e at mail.gmail.com>, at 14:53:22 on Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Emmanuel Edet <edmanix at gmail.com> writes
> Law enforcement or censorship?

It's definitely censorship. The government regards pop music as undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it.

The people making the music would just like the audience to pay for it, but have reckoned without the "everything on the Internet must be free of charge" clause in the Human Rights Convention.
-- Roland Perry
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      __________________________________________________________________________________
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Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
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From seiiti.lists at googlemail.com  Wed Nov  4 03:59:37 2009
From: seiiti.lists at googlemail.com (Seiiti Arata)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:59:37 +0200
Subject: [governance] Internet Governance Capacity Building Programme -
In-Reply-To: <f7e605ab0911030303o7e76af53kca0ec36a7f24b5cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <510136.85634.qm@web110216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	 <f7e605ab0911030303o7e76af53kca0ec36a7f24b5cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecd95cb50911040059y57f42e2ep53ca99c88ca2c13b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ebenezer, you may also want to look here:

www.facebook.com/igcbp
www.twitter.com/igcbp
www.diplointernetgovernance.org

Best
S.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello Ebenezer.
>
> The next Internet Governance Capacity building program organized by Diplo
> should start in April or May. We will make sure that the call for
> applications will be sent to this list.
> You can also be informed about this and other courses in the website
> www.diplomacy.edu
>
> Best wishes!
>
> Marilia
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:12 AM, annan ebenezer <
> siliconvalley2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>  what is the next  internet  governance capacity building program? I have
>> been following this for some time but have not gotten any feedback.
>> still waiting,
>>
>> ebenezer
>>
>> thank
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
> FGV Direito Rio
>
> Center of Technology and Society
> Getulio Vargas Foundation
> Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>
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>
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Wed Nov  4 09:32:23 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:32:23 +0000
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
In-Reply-To: <348941.67372.qm@web58904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <701af9f70911030529q101e9465h66daaf0a60fdd12a@mail.gmail.com>
 <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e@mail.gmail.com>
 <Y$tmGWwsiJ8KFATw@perry.co.uk> <348941.67372.qm@web58904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9Z7PvPo3BZ8KFA1y@perry.co.uk>

In message <348941.67372.qm at web58904.mail.re1.yahoo.com>, at 14:15:59 on 
Tue, 3 Nov 2009, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au> writes
>Now that's one of the biggest loads of bollocks... that "government 
>regards pop music as undesirable, and is trying every means it can to 
>eradicate it." What planet are you on?

Planet Irony. (But I hope most people realised that).

>----- Original Message ----
>From: Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 7:55:08 AM
>Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
>
>In message 
><f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e at mail.gmail.com>, at 
>14:53:22 on Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Emmanuel Edet <edmanix at gmail.com> writes
>> Law enforcement or censorship?
>
>It's definitely censorship. The government regards pop music as 
>undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it.
>
>The people making the music would just like the audience to pay for it, 
>but have reckoned without the "everything on the Internet must be free 
>of charge" clause in the Human Rights Convention.
>-- Roland Perry
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
>
> 
>________________________________________________________________________
>__________
>Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
>Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>____________________________________________________________
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>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
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-- 
Roland Perry
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov  4 14:37:14 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:37:14 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] M. Geist: ACTA Negotiations, Day Two: What's On Tap
Message-ID: <15609702.1257363434651.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  As a matter of some importance to us all the following
I hope will be helpful and reasonably informative to the extent
that ACTA information will be released.

=================================

QUOTE:
Member of Parliament, Sweden
Prof Geist,
Thank you for keeping us updated throughout the process! Without you
as a source of information, I would not have a clue about current ACTA
developments.
END OF QUOTE

Read on his site for all the good links:

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4511/125/


ACTA Negotiations, Day Two: What's On Tap

Wednesday November 04, 2009

As ACTA negotiators head into day two of the Seoul, Korea meetings,
the global response to the Internet provisions in the chapter (the
issue from day one) has been remarkable.  Articles and postings from
around the world (Germany, Italy, Sweden, UK, New Zealand, the
Netherlands, U.S.,  Germany, Italy, Hungary, the Netherlands),
coverage from some of the most popular websites (Gizmodo,
ReadWriteWeb, TorrentFreak, BoingBoing, Slashdot), as well as expert
commentary (EFF, Electronic Frontier Australia) has been swift and
universally concerned with ACTA.

According to the official agenda, in a few hours talks will continue
on the Internet provisions and then move into the criminal provisions
chapter.  I discussed details of the Internet chapter yesterday, in a
post that highlights the creation of a Global DMCA that would severely
limit the ability for signatories to use the flexibility found in the
WIPO Internet treaties.  Moreover, the provisions would pave the way
for a globalized three-strikes and you're out system, as ISP safe
harbours would be premised on policies to terminate subscribers in
appropriate circumstances.

It is worth highlighting the ongoing criminal provisions as well.  As
previously leaked, the U.S. and Japan supplied the initial text for
this chapter.  Their proposal included:

     * extend criminal enforcement to both (1) cases of a commercial
nature; and (2) cases involving significant willful copyright and
trademark infringement even where there is no direct or indirect
motivation of financial gain.  In other words, non-commercial
infringement could lead to criminal penalties
     * each country would be required to establish a laundry list of
penalties - including imprisonment - sufficient to deter future acts
of infringement. The specific proposed language was "include sentences
of imprisonment as well as monetary fines sufficiently high to provide
a deterrent to future acts of infringement, consistent with a policy
of removing the monetary incentive of the infringer."
     * trafficking in fake packaging for movies or music would become
a criminal act. The fake packaging provision provided:

Each Party shall provide for criminal procedures and penalties to be
applied, even absent willful trademark counterfeiting or copyright or
related rights piracy, at least in cases of knowing trafficking in:
(a)    counterfeit labels affixed to, enclosing, or accompanying, or
designed to be affixed to, enclose, or accompany the following:
(i)    a phonogram,
(ii)     a copy of a computer program or other literary work,
(iii)    a copy of a motion picture or other audiovisual work,
(iv)    documentation or packaging for such items; and
(b)     counterfeit documentation or packaging for items of the type
described in subparagraph (a); and
(c)    illicit labels affixed to, enclosing, or accompanying, or
designed to be affixed to, enclose, or accompany items of the type
described in subparagraph (a).

     * Criminalization of unauthorized camcording:

Each Party shall provide for criminal procedures and penalties to be
applied against any person who, without authorization of the holder of
copyright or related rights in a motion picture or other audiovisual
work, knowingly uses an audiovisual recording device to transmit or
make a copy of or transmits to the public the motion picture or other
audiovisual work, or any part thereof, from a performance of the
motion picture or other audiovisual work in a motion picture
exhibition facility open to the public.

On top of these provisions, there are full chapters on civil
enforcement (including mandatory statutory damages) and border
measures (including blocking shipments and new search powers).  This
is why I concluded yesterday that there is no bigger IP issue today
than the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement being negotiated behind
closed doors this week in Korea.

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827



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You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov  4 14:59:59 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 13:59:59 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] EU Wants To Redefine "Closed" As "Nearly Open"
Message-ID: <3914482.1257364799771.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  Seems to follow on with ICANN's approach and/or difinition
of same!  >:(

  This diatribe is interesting, shameful, and logically unsound
of course, yet provides for some insight as to how all of us
can continue to expect the EU to relate to the worlds public
at large.  Very disappointing...

See:
"A [0]leaked copy (PDF) of Version 2 of the European
Interoperability Framework replaces a requirement in Version 1 for
carefully-defined open standards by one for [1]a more general 'openness':
'the willingness of persons, organizations or other members of a
community of interest to share knowledge and to stimulate debate within
that community of interest.' It also defines an 'openness continuum' that
includes 'non-documented, proprietary specifications, proprietary
software and the reluctance or resistance to reuse solutions, i.e. the
"not invented here" syndrome.' Looks like 'closed' is the new 'open' in
the EU."

Discuss this story at:
    http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=09/11/03/017259

Links:
    0. http://www.bigwobber.nl/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/European-Interoperability-Framework-for-European-Public-Services-draft.pdf
    1. http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2620&blogid=14



Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Wed Nov  4 16:25:15 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:25:15 +1100
Subject: [governance] Another Pirate Party rep in European Parliament
Message-ID: <C7183C6B.7ACA%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

http://torrentfreak.com/pirate-party-gets-second-seat-in-european-parliament
-091104/



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From katitza at datos-personales.org  Wed Nov  4 18:18:15 2009
From: katitza at datos-personales.org (Katitza Rodriguez)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:18:15 +0100
Subject: [governance] Civil Society Groups and Privacy Expertes Release
 Madrid Declaration
References: <C7CC3898-C461-4FAD-92A0-E4901142FE36@datos-personales.org>
Message-ID: <ED2819FC-7D4D-4C05-8BDC-254B131B8DEC@datos-personales.org>

Civil Society Groups and Privacy Experts Release Madrid Declaration,  
Reaffirm International Privacy Laws, Identify New Challenges and Call  
for Concrete Action to Safeguard Privacy
By Liason on November 3, 2009 12:49 PM | Permalink
In a crisply worded declaration, over 100 civil society organizations  
and privacy experts from more than 40 countries have set out an  
expansive statement on the future of privacy. The Madrid Declaration  
affirms that privacy is a fundamental human right and reminds "all  
countries of their obligations to safeguard the civil rights of their  
citizens and residents." The Madrid Declaration warns that "privacy  
law and privacy institutions have failed to take full account of new  
surveillance practices." The Declaration urges countries "that have  
not yet established a comprehensive framework for privacy protection  
and an independent data protection authority to do so as expeditiously  
as possible." The civil society groups and experts recommend a  
"moratorium on the development or implementation of new systems of  
mass surveillance." Finally, the Declaration calls for the  
"establishment of a new international framework for privacy  
protection, with the full participation of civil society, that is  
based on the rule of law, respect for fundamental human rights, and  
support for democratic institutions." The Madrid Declaration was  
released at the Public Voice conference in Madrid on Global Privacy  
Standards. Multiple translations of the Declaration are available.

Please send your signature at privacy @ datos-personales.org

If you want to help with some translations, pls. send an email to  
privacy @ datos-personales.org

We are recruiting signatures until January 28, International Privacy  
Day.

http://thepublicvoice.org/2009/11/civil-society-groups-and-privacy-expertes-release-madrid-declaration-reaffirm-international-privacy.php

_______________________________________________
Madrid mailing list
Madrid at mailman.thepublicvoice.org
http://mailman.thepublicvoice.org/listinfo.cgi/madrid-thepublicvoice.org

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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Thu Nov  5 00:17:56 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Wed,  4 Nov 2009 21:17:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Did Congress really give the FCC power to protect the
 'Net?
Message-ID: <sympa.1257397377.86409.976@lists.cpsr.org>

Did Congress really give the FCC power to protect the 'Net?
By Matthew Lasar | November 1, 2009

Art.Ref.:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/11/does-the-fcc-have-authority-to-enforce-net-neutrality-rules.ars

--

Note to Eric Dierker, I can't offer any 'direct comment' other than 'this is
what it is.' The news piece contain serveral worthwhile links within.  With the
FCC as part of the mix, it begs the question: Will  governance be shared and
how?
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Thu Nov  5 11:37:34 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:37:34 +0000
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
Message-ID: <348878.41869.qm@smtp126-mob.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am looking for the motivation for pursuing such a load. But I am stuck on lunacy and idiocy ;-)

----------
Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone

------Original Message------
From: David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>
To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
Date: Tue, Nov 3, 2:15 PM -0800
Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following

Now that's one of the biggest loads of bollocks... that "government regards pop music as undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it" What planet are you on? What century are you living in? Mid-20th century?




----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 7:55:08 AM
Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following

In message <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e at mail.gmail.com>, at 14:53:22 on Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Emmanuel Edet <edmanix at gmail.com> writes
> Law enforcement or censorship?

It's definitely censorship. The government regards pop music as undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it.

The people making the music would just like the audience to pay for it, but have reckoned without the "everything on the Internet must be free of charge" clause in the Human Rights Convention.
-- Roland Perry
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov  5 14:05:49 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:05:49 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
Message-ID: <1212920.1257447949363.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Eric, Roland, David, and all,

  I also am having a bit of trouble in buying into Rolands
contention here.  Perhaps he and/or David should file an
official complaint with the EU council and the UK government
in an effort to flush out this contention more fully.  ??
My guess is that such a filing will not occur and thus the
attempt here at perhaps using public opinion to garner some
presure on the UK government.  

  None the less with the ACTA consideration which I posted
yesterday being a bit foggy still due to the respective 
governments seeking to keep such negotiations "Under wraps"
until they are finnished with the end product, what has leaked
out is to say the least shocking and IMO will be difficult to
adaquately enforce on a global basis as well as costly to 
attempt to broadly or even narrowly.  Ergo the consumer looses
to higher prices in the mid term.  Not a good senerio.

  Conversly however, it has been clear for years now that the
IP community especially in the entertainment segment and their
respective representational organizations such as the RIAA and
MPAA in the US as well as their respective EU counterparts sought
and still seek to use the power of the Internet to sell/hawk their
product but often times do so in technically irresponsible and
potentially dangerous ways demonstrating their lack or knowledge
and leeping before looking, as it were.  Hence to great degree
the problems with perception perhaps that Roland and David are
suffering from.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Eric Dierker <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Nov 5, 2009 10:37 AM
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>
>Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
>
>I am looking for the motivation for pursuing such a load. But I am stuck on lunacy and idiocy ;-)
>
>----------
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone
>
>------Original Message------
>From: David Goldstein <goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au>
>To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>Date: Tue, Nov 3, 2:15 PM -0800
>Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
>
>Now that's one of the biggest loads of bollocks... that "government regards pop music as undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it" What planet are you on? What century are you living in? Mid-20th century?
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 7:55:08 AM
>Subject: Re: [governance] UK - Government to cut off web pirates - following
>
>In message <f008fc3b0911030553p6814b161nb8b6132ea069ff4e at mail.gmail.com>, at 14:53:22 on Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Emmanuel Edet <edmanix at gmail.com> writes
>> Law enforcement or censorship?
>
>It's definitely censorship. The government regards pop music as undesirable, and is trying every means it can to eradicate it.
>
>The people making the music would just like the audience to pay for it, but have reckoned without the "everything on the Internet must be free of charge" clause in the Human Rights Convention.
>-- Roland Perry
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
>
>      __________________________________________________________________________________
>Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
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>____________________________________________________________
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Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov  5 14:23:28 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:23:28 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Secret Copyright Treaty Leaks. It's Bad. Very Bad.
Message-ID: <2122026.1257449008272.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  Again it looks as though ICANN's IPC, RIAA, MPAA and their
other nation counterparts, and Authors Guild have gotten a
perhaps big win/windfall here.  What says the IGF/IGC?

  FWIW, I can't see the bulk of this agreement/treaty being
in the interest of the Internet community.  Certainly it
favors heavily the IP segment.

See:
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=09/11/04/144240
Jamie found a Boing Boing story that will probably get your blood to at
least a simmer. It says "The http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/03/secret-copyright-tre.html
internet chapter of the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, a secret 
copyright treaty whose text Obama's administration refused to disclose 
due to 'national security' concerns, has leaked. It's bad." You can read 
the http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4510/125/original leaked
document or the summary. If passed, the internet will never be the same.
Thank goodness it's hidden from public scrutiny for National Security.
< sarcasm intended >

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827


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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov  5 14:34:05 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:34:05 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Did Congress really give the FCC power to protect
Message-ID: <31889876.1257449645715.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Yehuda and all,

  I disagree with Comcasts answer.  The factual answer is 
of course yes.  The FCC has always had this power but has
rarely exercised it, and rightfully so.  Such a power can
often times be a two edged sword and responsible FCC field
regulators are fully aware, or should be of such.  Still 
there remains the possibility that such a power can be
abused.  None the less as many of us have seen or should
be self aware of, many ISP and IAP's are quite neglegent
and as a result allow their customers to be abused by
Internet miscrients, like BitTorrent to continue on
and on with their nonsense.  Yahoo and Gmail also have
been similar abusers accordingly unfortunately.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Yehuda Katz <yehudakatz at mailinator.com>
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 11:17 PM
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>Subject: [governance] Did Congress really give the FCC power to protect the 'Net?
>
>Did Congress really give the FCC power to protect the 'Net?
>By Matthew Lasar | November 1, 2009
>
>Art.Ref.:
>http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/11/does-the-fcc-have-authority-to-enforce-net-neutrality-rules.ars
>
>--
>
>Note to Eric Dierker, I can't offer any 'direct comment' other than 'this is
>what it is.' The news piece contain serveral worthwhile links within.  With the
>FCC as part of the mix, it begs the question: Will  governance be shared and
>how?
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov  5 14:39:09 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:39:09 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Civil Society Groups and Privacy Expertes Release
Message-ID: <12386376.1257449949701.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov  5 16:02:29 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:02:29 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Maryland Town Tests New Cryptographic Voting System
Message-ID: <33433961.1257454949804.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

 See:
mailto:chris at swiedler.org
ceswiedler writes "In Tuesday's election voters in Takoma Park, MD
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/scantegrityused a new cryptographic 
voting system designed by David Chaum with researchers from several universities 
including MIT and the University of Maryland. Voters use a special ink to 
mark their ballots, which reveals three-digit codes which they can later 
check against a website to verify their vote was tallied. Additionally, 
anyone can download election data from a 
https://scantegrity.org/svn/data/takoma-nov3-2009/PUBLIC/PUBLIC/Subversion 
repository and verify the overall accuracy of the
results without seeing the actual choices of any individual voter."




  Perhaps ICANN can take a follow-on initiative in seeking
further information in the interest of implimentation and 
use of this seemingly promising voting system so that issues
that are being considered or have been proposed to ICANN can
be voted upon by any and all Interested stakeholders most
especially users?

Paul, I hope that this method meets with at least your
initial approval?  Please advise.

The IGF/IGC may also wish to consider this voting method
as well.  For either ICANN or the IGF/IGC the need for
also sending out the special pens would be required, but
that would seem to be a minor expense accordingly.

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov  6 16:40:14 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:40:14 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: [A2k] Live Coverage of the Bilski Supreme Court
 Hearing?
Message-ID: <4169162.1257543614905.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Manon and all,

  Indeed this is a very interesting case that I and many
INEGroup members have been following closely.  Our position
in this case has already been expressed frequently.  We
oppose business plans as patentable.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Manon Ress <manon.ress at keionline.org>
>Sent: Nov 6, 2009 2:24 PM
>To: a2k discuss list <a2k at lists.essential.org>
>Subject: [A2k] Live Coverage of the Bilski Supreme Court Hearing?
>
>I am not sure how this is possible but ...
>Manon
>
>The Practising Law Institute's Patent Center Will Provide Live
>Coverage of the Bilski Supreme Court Hearing
>
>Posted on: Friday, 6 November 2009, 11:00 CST
>
>Legal education organization will live blog court proceedings for
>landmark intellectual property decision on November 9
>
>WASHINGTON, Nov. 6 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- On Monday, November 9,
>2009, in Washington, D.C., the United States Supreme Court will hear
>oral arguments in the much anticipated Bilski case, which could well
>decide whether business methods and software remain patentable in the
>United States.
>
>The Practising Law Institute (PLI), the nation's largest producer of
>continuing legal education, will be present at this hearing, providing
>continuous updates throughout the day via its Patent Practice Center
>blog, an increasingly recognized forum for patent news and opinion
>
>On October 30, 2008, the United States Court of Appeals for the
>Federal Circuit issued its much anticipated decision in In re Bilski,
>which presented the central question of whether a purely mental
>process is patentable subject matter. The Federal Circuit addressed
>the issue so broadly that it ultimately affected the patent-
>eligibility of numerous software-related inventions. Many had been
>expecting a far-reaching decision that dealt a blow to "pure" business
>method patents, but few expected just how far-reaching the decision
>would be, or that it would call into question thousands of software
>patents granted over the last ten to fifteen years.
>
>http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1782068/the_practising_law_institutes_patent_center_will_provide_live_coverage/index.html?source=r_technology
>
>
>***************************************************************************
>Manon Ress
>manon.ress at keionline.org
>Knowledge Ecology International
>1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Washington, DC 20009 USA
>Tel.:  +1.202.332.2670, Fax: +1.202.332.2673
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>A2k mailing list
>A2k at lists.essential.org
>http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/a2k

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov  6 16:53:14 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:53:14 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [ga] Re: [governance] Civil Society Groups and Privacy Expertes
Message-ID: <11578272.1257544394913.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov  7 14:45:26 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:45:26 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [ga] Re: [governance] Civil Society Groups and Privacy Expertes
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov  7 15:10:01 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 14:10:01 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] More on Google privacy violation issue: Dashboard
 Reveals What Google Knows About You
Message-ID: <30190848.1257624601983.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  Of great concern to users everywhere the following is quite
interesting.  What's even more interesting is that much of the
personal data that Goolge has collected is of very questionable
accuracy.
See: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=09/11/06/0453232

"Ever wonder exactly what Google knows about you? Google
took a step today to answer that question http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9140411/Dashboard_shows_what_Google_knows_about_you
with the unveiling of Google Dashboard, which is designed to let users 
see and control the copious amounts of data that http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9129916/FTC_urged_to_investigate_Google_s_hosted_services
Google has stored in its servers about them. 'Over the past 11 years, 
Google has focused on building innovative products for our users. Today, 
with hundreds of millions of people using those products around the world, 
we are very aware of the trust that you have placed in us, and our responsibility 
to protect your privacy and data,' http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/transparency-choice-and-control-now.htmlGoogle said in a blog post today. 'In an effort to provide you 
with greater transparency and control over their own data, we've built 
the Google Dashboard.' Dashboard is set up so that users can control the 
personal settings in each Google product that they use. Google said the 
tool supports more than 20 products, including Gmail, Calendar, Docs, Web 
History, YouTube, Picasa, Talk, Reader, Alerts and Google Latitude.  
Consumer Watchdog said in a statement today that it applauds Google for 
giving users a single place to go to manage their data. But at the same 
tine, the group also came down hard on Google, contending that it needs 
to give users a vehicle for stopping the company from collecting any 
personal data."

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827




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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sat Nov  7 18:23:11 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:53:11 -0430
Subject: [governance] Second Candidate for co-coordinator Fouad Bajwa
Message-ID: <4AF6015F.20003@gmail.com>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sat Nov  7 18:29:34 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:29:34 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: [ga] Registrants
Message-ID: <6482161.1257636574465.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Eric and all,

  Of course, and nicely as well as properly stated.  Well done.
It bares repeating yet weighs heavily on us all that such posturing
has become so exceptable and can be sumed up in the old refrain:
"No matter how things change it's amazing how they remain the same".
I believe this far too often applies to individuals as well as
organizations.

  Registrants as well as non-registrant users have so far been
demonstrably left out of the policy making in respect to
ICANN and the Internet generally.  As such, nationalistic
regulation as well as legislation has commenced, much of which
does not favor the future prospects of openness and transparency
and is anti-user/anti-registrant.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Hugh Dierker <hdierker2204 at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Nov 7, 2009 4:52 PM
>To: Joop Teernstra <terastra at terabytz.co.nz>, Danny Younger <dannyyounger at yahoo.com>, Accountability Headquarters <ga at gnso.icann.org>, "Jeffrey A. Williams" <jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: [ga] Registrants
>
>I think this may be reflective of a reoccuring problem.  Posturing for personal power requires holding your cards close to the vest, transparency takes a back seat.
>
>----------
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone
>
>------Original Message------
>From: Jeffrey A. Williams <jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com>
>To: "Joop Teernstra" <terastra at terabytz.co.nz>,"Hugh Dierker" <hdierker2204 at yahoo.com>,"Danny Younger" <dannyyounger at yahoo.com>,
> "Accountability Headquarters" <ga at gnso.icann.org>
>Date: Sat, Nov 7, 1:41 PM -0600
>Subject: Re: [ga] Registrants
>
>
>Joop and all,
>
> 
>
>  I suppose that this has multipul meanings and references.  One can only wonder
>
>which "Peace Process" Joop is referring to.  If Somalia is the comparison, than the
>
>movement is not fairing well.  If the Palistinian-Israel process the same can be
>
>assumed.  If some other comparison than it would be more open and transparent
>
>if Joop would be much more specific.  Joop?
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joop Teernstra
>Sent: Nov 7, 2009 5:39 AM
>To: Hugh Dierker, Danny Younger, Accountability Headquarters
>Subject: Re: [ga] Registrants
>
>
>
>
>It is comparable to "the Peace Process". 
> 
> 
>
>----- Original Message -----
> From: Hugh Dierker
> To: Danny Younger ; Accountability Headquarters
> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 6:32 PM
> Subject: [ga] Registrants
>
>
>What is the latest word on the Registrant movement?
>
> 
>
Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov  8 08:59:26 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 05:59:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Second Candidate for co-coordinator Fouad Bajwa
In-Reply-To: <4AF6015F.20003@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71703.33192.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Please tell us Ginger, where all this open and transparent process for the "we have a" taking place?  I am sorry but it sounds like a runner up in a beauty contest or the picking of a Pope.

--- On Sat, 11/7/09, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
Subject: [governance] Second Candidate for co-coordinator Fouad Bajwa
To: "'governance at lists.cpsr.org'" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 11:23 PM


We have a second candidate for co-coordinator of the IGC caucus, Fouad Bajwa:

Fouad Bajwa is an active member of the Civil Society from Pakistan,
South Asia. Fouad is an active member of the IGC and was nominated by
the IGC and elected by the UN as a member advisor of the IGF
Multistakeholder Advisory Group (MAG) in May 2008. He has been part of
various ICT, FOSS and Philanthropic (Technology for Human Development)
initiatives regionally and around the world. As a social innovator, he
has been involved with various social enterprises and communities that
help promote Information and Communication Technologies (ICTs) in the
Government, Private Sector and Civil Society with great relevance to
the developing world. He is also widely recognized for his
contributions as a Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) Evangelist and
renowned in Pakistan and globally for his contributions towards
promoting the Freedoms of use of Technology for Human Development.

Fouad has advised and participated various regional and global
Technology Access and Digital Inclusion campaigns for example one such
involving the manufacturing of over one billion low-cost ultra mobile
laptop computers running Free Software and their provision to one
billion underprivileged people on planet that have yet to use or
access computers and the Internet. This program was being carried out
by the Gerry Morgan Foundation Canada where Fouad (Co-Founder) has
been responsible for identifying and developing strategic global ICT4D
partnerships to meet this goal and works mainly with the ICT community
to identify programs.

He was the Co-founder of the Free and Open Source Software Foundation
and Community in Pakistan and initiated various programs for promoting
FOSS in the country. In 2005, his programs trained over 7000 people
and most notably women in use of Linux and respecting human intellect.
4800 Linux users were certified during this activity. Over half a
million of Free Software CDs have been distributed all over Pakistan
since then. In Pakistan, he currently leads the Linux Professional
Institute LPI-Pakistan office and is a Team Lead for the Ubuntu Linux
LoCo Team Pakistan and is a member of the Champions Network of the
prestigious ICT Challenge & Award, the Stockholm Challenge.

Fouad is a graduate in Computer Science and Information Technology and
also carries a scholarship in Internet Governance from DiploFoundation
and numerous fellowships in ICT4D & FOSS related policy, strategy,
research and development activities. He also trains and consults
organizations in other parts of world to design and implement ICT4D
inclusion and access programs. His online profile can be accessed at:
http://www.satc.pk/?q=node/14. Fouad is passionate about the
participation of the developing world in Internet Governance issues
and the multistakeholder dialogue between the IGF and ICANN.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From correia.rui at gmail.com  Sun Nov  8 13:12:56 2009
From: correia.rui at gmail.com (Rui Correia)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:12:56 +0200
Subject: [governance] Second Candidate for co-coordinator Fouad Bajwa
In-Reply-To: <71703.33192.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <4AF6015F.20003@gmail.com>
	 <71703.33192.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ec8caada0911081012j44aa2ff1w28d203a8d207862d@mail.gmail.com>

For those unfamiliar with the English language

"We have a" means, "we have received"/ "a name has been tendered"/ "a name
has been put forward", "we have received a nomination. The "we" is Ginger
speaking not as herself, but as the position she represents, as the on-going
IGC Coordinator.

Ginger put out the email announcing the position to replace Ian Peter, so it
is only natural that she will report to this forum whatever suggestions she
receives from us, "we", the members - "I will periodically announce
nominations that have been received". "We (the members) now have a second
candidate. When another gets suggested, then "we will have a third
candidate". You might want to nominate one yourself, in which case certainly
Ginger will say "we now have a third candidate".

But English aside, the call for nominations did state that nominations
should be sent directly to her - it there an issue over transparency with
that, you should have pointed it out a long time ago.

Regards,

Rui



2009/11/8 Eric Dierker <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>

>  Please tell us Ginger, where all this open and transparent process for the
> "we have a" taking place?  I am sorry but it sounds like a runner up in a
> beauty contest or the picking of a Pope.
>
> --- On *Sat, 11/7/09, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
> Subject: [governance] Second Candidate for co-coordinator Fouad Bajwa
> To: "'governance at lists.cpsr.org'" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 11:23 PM
>
>
> We have a second candidate for co-coordinator of the IGC caucus, Fouad
> Bajwa:
>
> Fouad Bajwa is an active member of the Civil Society from Pakistan,
> South Asia. Fouad is an active member of the IGC and was nominated by
> the IGC and elected by the UN as a member advisor of the IGF
> Multistakeholder Advisory Group (MAG) in May 2008. He has been part of
> various ICT, FOSS and Philanthropic (Technology for Human Development)
> initiatives regionally and around the world. As a social innovator, he
> has been involved with various social enterprises and communities that
> help promote Information and Communication Technologies (ICTs) in the
> Government, Private Sector and Civil Society with great relevance to
> the developing world. He is also widely recognized for his
> contributions as a Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) Evangelist and
> renowned in Pakistan and globally for his contributions towards
> promoting the Freedoms of use of Technology for Human Development.
>
> Fouad has advised and participated various regional and global
> Technology Access and Digital Inclusion campaigns for example one such
> involving the manufacturing of over one billion low-cost ultra mobile
> laptop computers running Free Software and their provision to one
> billion underprivileged people on planet that have yet to use or
> access computers and the Internet. This program was being carried out
> by the Gerry Morgan Foundation Canada where Fouad (Co-Founder) has
> been responsible for identifying and developing strategic global ICT4D
> partnerships to meet this goal and works mainly with the ICT community
> to identify programs.
>
> He was the Co-founder of the Free and Open Source Software Foundation
> and Community in Pakistan and initiated various programs for promoting
> FOSS in the country. In 2005, his programs trained over 7000 people
> and most notably women in use of Linux and respecting human intellect.
> 4800 Linux users were certified during this activity. Over half a
> million of Free Software CDs have been distributed all over Pakistan
> since then. In Pakistan, he currently leads the Linux Professional
> Institute LPI-Pakistan office and is a Team Lead for the Ubuntu Linux
> LoCo Team Pakistan and is a member of the Champions Network of the
> prestigious ICT Challenge & Award, the Stockholm Challenge.
>
> Fouad is a graduate in Computer Science and Information Technology and
> also carries a scholarship in Internet Governance from DiploFoundation
> and numerous fellowships in ICT4D & FOSS related policy, strategy,
> research and development activities. He also trains and consults
> organizations in other parts of world to design and implement ICT4D
> inclusion and access programs. His online profile can be accessed at:http://www.satc.pk/?q=node/14. Fouad is passionate about the
> participation of the developing world in Internet Governance issues
> and the multistakeholder dialogue between the IGF and ICANN.
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>


-- 
________________________________________________


Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant
2 Cutten St
Horison
Roodepoort-Johannesburg,
South Africa
Tel/ Fax (+27-11) 766-4336
Mobile (+27) (0) 84-498-6838
_______________
áâãçéêíóôõúç
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From vanda at uol.com.br  Sun Nov  8 13:26:38 2009
From: vanda at uol.com.br (Vanda UOL)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 16:26:38 -0200
Subject: [governance] Second Candidate for co-coordinator Fouad Bajwa
In-Reply-To: <4AF6015F.20003@gmail.com>
References: <4AF6015F.20003@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011e01ca60a1$0495ae80$0dc10b80$@com.br>

Yes, Fuad is a great acquisition! 

Best

 vanda

From: Ginger Paque [mailto:gpaque at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:23 PM
To: 'governance at lists.cpsr.org'
Subject: [governance] Second Candidate for co-coordinator Fouad Bajwa

 

We have a second candidate for co-coordinator of the IGC caucus, Fouad
Bajwa:




Fouad Bajwa is an active member of the Civil Society from Pakistan,
South Asia. Fouad is an active member of the IGC and was nominated by
the IGC and elected by the UN as a member advisor of the IGF
Multistakeholder Advisory Group (MAG) in May 2008. He has been part of
various ICT, FOSS and Philanthropic (Technology for Human Development)
initiatives regionally and around the world. As a social innovator, he
has been involved with various social enterprises and communities that
help promote Information and Communication Technologies (ICTs) in the
Government, Private Sector and Civil Society with great relevance to
the developing world. He is also widely recognized for his
contributions as a Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) Evangelist and
renowned in Pakistan and globally for his contributions towards
promoting the Freedoms of use of Technology for Human Development.
 
Fouad has advised and participated various regional and global
Technology Access and Digital Inclusion campaigns for example one such
involving the manufacturing of over one billion low-cost ultra mobile
laptop computers running Free Software and their provision to one
billion underprivileged people on planet that have yet to use or
access computers and the Internet. This program was being carried out
by the Gerry Morgan Foundation Canada where Fouad (Co-Founder) has
been responsible for identifying and developing strategic global ICT4D
partnerships to meet this goal and works mainly with the ICT community
to identify programs.
 
He was the Co-founder of the Free and Open Source Software Foundation
and Community in Pakistan and initiated various programs for promoting
FOSS in the country. In 2005, his programs trained over 7000 people
and most notably women in use of Linux and respecting human intellect.
4800 Linux users were certified during this activity. Over half a
million of Free Software CDs have been distributed all over Pakistan
since then. In Pakistan, he currently leads the Linux Professional
Institute LPI-Pakistan office and is a Team Lead for the Ubuntu Linux
LoCo Team Pakistan and is a member of the Champions Network of the
prestigious ICT Challenge & Award, the Stockholm Challenge.
 
Fouad is a graduate in Computer Science and Information Technology and
also carries a scholarship in Internet Governance from DiploFoundation
and numerous fellowships in ICT4D & FOSS related policy, strategy,
research and development activities. He also trains and consults
organizations in other parts of world to design and implement ICT4D
inclusion and access programs. His online profile can be accessed at:
http://www.satc.pk/?q=node/14. Fouad is passionate about the
participation of the developing world in Internet Governance issues
and the multistakeholder dialogue between the IGF and ICANN.

 

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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Tue Nov 10 10:33:38 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:33:38 +0100
Subject: [governance] IGF workshop on a development agenda for IG (remote
 participation)
Message-ID: <78743126-2504-4F4D-A52C-AE93318DCCE6@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hello,

For people who will not be attending the IGF in Sharm el Sheikh, there  
is now another remote participation opportunity, in addition to the  
IGF main sessions and the GigaNet symposium, courtesy of Derrick  
Cogburn and his Cotelco center.  This is the workshop I've organized  
on, "Implementing the WSIS Principles: A Development Agenda for  
Internet Governance."  Description and RP information are below if the  
topic is of interest.

Best,

Bill



http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2009proposal

Concise Description:

The Tunis Agenda’s WSIS principles on Internet governance comprise  
both procedural and substantive prescriptions. The former state that  
governance should be conducted in a manner that is multilateral,  
transparent, democratic, and fully inclusive of all stakeholders. The  
latter state that governance should, inter alia, ensure an equitable  
distribution of resources, facilitate access for all, and be an  
essential element of a people-centred, inclusive, development- 
oriented, and non-discriminatory information society. Taken together,  
these latter principles suggest that Internet governance should help  
to advance development objectives. In addition, the Tunis Agenda  
mandates the IGF to, “Promote and assess, on an ongoing basis, the  
embodiment of WSIS principles in Internet Governance processes.”  
Implementing the substantive WSIS principles and this element of the  
IGF mandate would require that stakeholders use the collaborative  
opportunities afforded by the IGF to assess and encourage governance  
mechanisms’ contributions to development. But unfortunately, the  
development dimension often has been overlooked in discussions of the  
WSIS principles and the IGF mandate. Accordingly, this workshop will  
help redress the problem by fostering a dialogue that takes seriously  
the concept of IG4D and by exploring ways to promote its realization  
in both the IGF and Internet governance mechanisms.

More specifically, the workshop will consider the possible  
establishment of a development agenda for Internet governance that  
would facilitate implementation of the WSIS principles and the IGF  
mandate. A development agenda is a holistic program of analysis and  
action intended to mainstream development considerations into the  
procedures and policy outputs of global governance mechanisms. While  
there have been concerted efforts to pursue such agendas in the  
multilateral institutions dealing with issues like international trade  
and intellectual property, there has been no discussion of a  
corresponding initiative for global Internet governance. With this in  
mind, a workshop entitled “Toward a Development Agenda for Internet  
Governance” was held at the IGF in Rio de Janeiro in 2007 http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2007report 
. Participants considered the general desirability of pursuing a  
development agenda and agreed that a properly configured and  
consensual initiative could help to promote an open, accessible,  
diverse, and secure global Internet. To carry the discussion forward,  
a second workshop entitled “A Development Agenda for Internet  
Governance: From Principle to Practice” was held at the IGF in  
Hyderabad in 2008 http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2008report. Here  
participants began to explore the possible substantive focus and  
operational aspects of a development agenda, and inter alia affirmed  
that the IGF is the most appropriate venue in which to elaborate a  
cross-cutting and flexible agenda that could encourage development- 
oriented enhancements within Internet governance institutions.

This third workshop in the series, to be held at the IGF in Sharm el  
Sheikh, will build on the prior discussions and seek to progress  
consensus building in three interrelated issue-areas:

1. The substantive focus of a development agenda, i.e. the key  
institutions and issues (pertaining both to Internet infrastructures  
and core resources and to their use for networked information,  
communication, and commerce) to be assessed from a developmental  
baseline so as to identify best practices and guidelines that  
organizations could consider employing within their respective work  
programs.
2. The procedural and institutional dimensions of an agenda, e.g.  
assessing the transparency and inclusiveness of participation, per the  
WSIS procedural principles, from the standpoint of people-centered  
development.
3. The operational aspects of pursuing an agenda in the IGF and  
beyond, e.g. the challenges of agenda setting, building a dynamic  
coalition and/or other collaborations, consensually defining  
assessment criteria and modalities, aggregating and presenting  
information, interfacing with governance stakeholders and  
institutions, providing feed-back mechanisms for input, etc.


Institutional Co-Sponsors

•	Government of Argentina (TBC)
•	Association for Progressive Communications
•	Centre for International Governance, Graduate Institute for  
International Studies
•	Council of Europe
•	Diplo Foundation
•	Institute for Internet Policy & Law, Beijing Normal University
•	Internet Society of China
•	Federal Office of Communication, Government of Switzerland


Scheduling and Remote Participation

The workshop will be held on Day 3 of the IGF--- Tuesday 17 November,  
from 9:30-12:30 in Room 3, Suez Canal.

Remote participation in the workshop will be provided for by the  
Center for Research on Collaboratories and Technology Enhanced  
Learning Communities at Syracuse University, USA.

Information on computer system requirements and use of the  
webconferencing technology (Elluminate Live!) is available at:
http://giganet.igloogroups.org/remotepart

Remote participation during the workshop will be available at
https://sas.elluminate.com/m.jnlp?password=M.10FC7E24BA568E8B69C7D3F0DDC21E


Agenda

I. Welcome and Overview by the organizer

William J. Drake
Senior Associate, Center for International Governance, Graduate  
Institute for International and Development Studies, Geneva, Switzerland


II. Panel Presentations

Moderator: William J. Drake

Speakers

Anriette Esterhuysen
Executive Director, Association for Progressive Communications, South  
Africa

Derrick Cogburn
Associate Professor of International Relations, American University,  
and Senior Scientist and Chief Research Director at the School of  
Information Studies, Syracuse University, United States of America

Olga Cavalli
Advisor to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and representative to the  
Governmental Advisor Committee of ICANN, Government of Argentina

Christine Arida
Director for Telecom Planning and Services, Egyptian National Telecom  
Regulatory Authority (NTRA), Government of Egypt

Alice Munyua
Convenor, East African IGF and Kenya ICT Action Network,
Communications Commission, Government of Kenya

Hong Xue
Professor of Law and Director of the Institute for Internet Policy &  
Law, Beijing Normal University, China

Fiona Alexander
Associate Administrator (Head of Office) for International Affairs,
National Telecommunications and Information Administration, Department  
of Commerce, Government of the United States

Elfa Yr Gylfadottir
Adviser, Office of cultural affairs, Ministry of Education, Science  
and Culture, Iceland


III. Q&A with the Panelists


IV. Group Discussion

Possible elements of a development agenda:

1. Capacity building
2. Institutional/procedural issues
3. Substantive policy issues: Governance of infrastructures
4. Substantive policy issues: Governance of networked
information, communication & commerce

How to move forward with a DA:

5. In the IGF & global IG institutions
6. Research and capacity building


V. Synthesis and Conclusion

***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Senior Associate
Centre for International Governance
Graduate Institute of International and
  Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
***********************************************************


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From gpaque at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 12:03:55 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:33:55 -0430
Subject: [governance] Upcoming IGF Remote Participation
Message-ID: <4AF99CFB.2050500@gmail.com>

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From goldstein.roxana at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 15:08:38 2009
From: goldstein.roxana at gmail.com (Roxana Goldstein)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:08:38 -0300
Subject: [governance] Upcoming IGF Remote Participation
In-Reply-To: <4AF99CFB.2050500@gmail.com>
References: <4AF99CFB.2050500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ca4162f0911101208x64af9ec7j50c9041d706739d7@mail.gmail.com>

Yes dear Ginger, I will be attending the IGF at the ISOC hub in Buenos
Aires.
abrazo,
Roxana




2009/11/10 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>

> Hello everyone,
>
> I know you are very busy with work and travel, as well as personal
> obligations. However, if you are not planning on going to Sharm El Sheikh
> for the 2009 IGF next week, I urge you to try to join by Remote
> Participation. Please let me know if you will be doing so, so that we can
> maintain a Skype conference parallel connection for comments.
>
> Best,
> Ginger
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Tue Nov 10 16:26:35 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:26:35 +0500
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
 http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com
Message-ID: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to share the link to my blog that specifically covers global
Internet governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/

The motivation comes after repeated requests from friends and
colleagues to consolidate my comments related to IGF and and now ICANN
as well as IG in general within a single space that is both accessible
to share comments.

Therefore, I will be collecting all my thoughts and comments from
participation within the IGF and ICANN meetings on a regular basis and
feel free to comment and share your own ideas thereof. Do follow my
comments from the IGF meeting in Sharam El-Sheikh and my endeavours on
IG at ICANN.

If you have any information or links that you may want to share
including links to your blogs, I would love to share them on my blog
and vice versa.

-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 10 21:50:07 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:50:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
 http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <707674.62336.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Very nice blogging indeed. Perhaps you could clarify a prevailing rant of yours.  I will say it bluntly so as to get the issue on the table and let the fretters worry if I am politically correct.
 
It seems like you are saying that for the sake of Internet Governance; Quality and competence should be replaced by an Affirmative Action Program for Developing Nations. Or perhaps better is DNAAP?
 
This has merit for the same reason any affirmative action program does. But are you bold enough to just come out and be honest about it?  Personally I would prefer it to the stepson, tokenism and throw the dog a bone mentality that now exists within ICANN.  I grew up in the developing and underdeveloped Navajo Nation within the US borders, I can see dimming lights from where I live that are from a developing nation and my wife and two adopted sons are from developing nations and I find the lack of humanism and depth in Southern California to be below standards of a developed nation. So I think I could get behind your position if you came out of the closet and called a spade a spade.
 
OTOH it is my belief that as it exists today the Internet is enough of a gap bridger that we maybe should not mess with the development of these nations. That as information flows intelligence and opportunity is manifest in any who chose that path.  And therefor it would be my hope that we move forward without attaching programs as it were that allow developed nations to corrupt but rather give developing nations a conduit to take what they want.
 


--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 9:26 PM


Hi Everyone,

I wanted to share the link to my blog that specifically covers global
Internet governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/

The motivation comes after repeated requests from friends and
colleagues to consolidate my comments related to IGF and and now ICANN
as well as IG in general within a single space that is both accessible
to share comments.

Therefore, I will be collecting all my thoughts and comments from
participation within the IGF and ICANN meetings on a regular basis and
feel free to comment and share your own ideas thereof. Do follow my
comments from the IGF meeting in Sharam El-Sheikh and my endeavours on
IG at ICANN.

If you have any information or links that you may want to share
including links to your blogs, I would love to share them on my blog
and vice versa.

-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 10 22:05:58 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:05:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Voice of Elders
Message-ID: <990463.49557.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I think that within our existing fledgling Internet governance modalities we are truly missing out on the opportunity to use something that has never existed before to take advantage of a group that has never existed before.
 
Buddha made clear his belief that a single earnest day of travel was worth a year of formal schooling. I think he was basically referring to the notion that actual experience is far more valuable than academics, when combined with the intention to study and learn. I speak as a man with a doctorate and about 2,000 miles of hiking in the Grand Canyon alone, not to mention hundreds on 6 continents.
 
My point is that we are not including into our systems the allocation of "seats at the table" for the experienced, the elders.  We are not being inclusive when discussing handicapps or barriers to access. We are forsaking the great asset of experience for the expedience of the faster, brighter newer peoples. We worry about access for the deaf and blind, for remote villages, for developing nations but we leave nothing for access for fastest growing group in the world, the elders. Our speed and growth is resulting in a total lack of respectful interface with our most worthy of citizens.
 
 
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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Wed Nov 11 02:00:17 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:00:17 +0100
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
 http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hmmm....

http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/

http://internetgovernance.org

Seems "confusingly similar."  Maybe a case for the UDRP?  :-)

Bill

On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I wanted to share the link to my blog that specifically covers global
> Internet governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>
> The motivation comes after repeated requests from friends and
> colleagues to consolidate my comments related to IGF and and now ICANN
> as well as IG in general within a single space that is both accessible
> to share comments.
>
> Therefore, I will be collecting all my thoughts and comments from
> participation within the IGF and ICANN meetings on a regular basis and
> feel free to comment and share your own ideas thereof. Do follow my
> comments from the IGF meeting in Sharam El-Sheikh and my endeavours on
> IG at ICANN.
>
> If you have any information or links that you may want to share
> including links to your blogs, I would love to share them on my blog
> and vice versa.
>
> -- 
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Senior Associate
Centre for International Governance
Graduate Institute of International and
  Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
***********************************************************


____________________________________________________________
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 02:10:41 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:10:41 +0500
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance 
In-Reply-To: <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911102310l6c481762x1fdbb0f80a229e06@mail.gmail.com>

Haha, well said Bill, but I am on Internet's Governance and on a third
level domain whereas Milton is on the first level of everything :o)
It's a hosted blog, didn't have the resources to manage a complete
gTLD :o)

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:00 PM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> Hmmm....
>
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>
> http://internetgovernance.org
>
> Seems "confusingly similar."  Maybe a case for the UDRP?  :-)
>
> Bill
>
> On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> I wanted to share the link to my blog that specifically covers global
>> Internet governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>>
>> The motivation comes after repeated requests from friends and
>> colleagues to consolidate my comments related to IGF and and now ICANN
>> as well as IG in general within a single space that is both accessible
>> to share comments.
>>
>> Therefore, I will be collecting all my thoughts and comments from
>> participation within the IGF and ICANN meetings on a regular basis and
>> feel free to comment and share your own ideas thereof. Do follow my
>> comments from the IGF meeting in Sharam El-Sheikh and my endeavours on
>> IG at ICANN.
>>
>> If you have any information or links that you may want to share
>> including links to your blogs, I would love to share them on my blog
>> and vice versa.
>>
>> --
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Fouad Bajwa
>> Advisor & Researcher
>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> Follow my Tweets:
>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> MAG Interview:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> ***********************************************************
> William J. Drake
> Senior Associate
> Centre for International Governance
> Graduate Institute of International and
>  Development Studies
> Geneva, Switzerland
> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
> www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
> ***********************************************************
>
>
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
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From b.schombe at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 02:31:07 2009
From: b.schombe at gmail.com (Baudouin SCHOMBE)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:31:07 +0100
Subject: [governance] IGF workshop on a development agenda for IG (remote
In-Reply-To: <78743126-2504-4F4D-A52C-AE93318DCCE6@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <78743126-2504-4F4D-A52C-AE93318DCCE6@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <ecb172de0911102331u745c02f9i896c165dcd0d53d3@mail.gmail.com>

Hi William,

I hope to be in this workshop

Baudouin

2009/11/10 William Drake <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch>

> Hello,
>
> For people who will not be attending the IGF in Sharm el Sheikh, there is
> now another remote participation opportunity, in addition to the IGF main
> sessions and the GigaNet symposium, courtesy of Derrick Cogburn and his
> Cotelco center.  This is the workshop I've organized on, "Implementing the
> WSIS Principles: A Development Agenda for Internet Governance."  Description
> and RP information are below if the topic is of interest.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2009proposal
>
> Concise Description:
>
> The Tunis Agenda’s WSIS principles on Internet governance comprise both
> procedural and substantive prescriptions. The former state that governance
> should be conducted in a manner that is multilateral, transparent,
> democratic, and fully inclusive of all stakeholders. The latter state that
> governance should, inter alia, ensure an equitable distribution of
> resources, facilitate access for all, and be an essential element of a
> people-centred, inclusive, development-oriented, and non-discriminatory
> information society. Taken together, these latter principles suggest that
> Internet governance should help to advance development objectives. In
> addition, the Tunis Agenda mandates the IGF to, “Promote and assess, on an
> ongoing basis, the embodiment of WSIS principles in Internet Governance
> processes.” Implementing the substantive WSIS principles and this element of
> the IGF mandate would require that stakeholders use the collaborative
> opportunities afforded by the IGF to assess and encourage governance
> mechanisms’ contributions to development. But unfortunately, the development
> dimension often has been overlooked in discussions of the WSIS principles
> and the IGF mandate. Accordingly, this workshop will help redress the
> problem by fostering a dialogue that takes seriously the concept of IG4D and
> by exploring ways to promote its realization in both the IGF and Internet
> governance mechanisms.
>
> More specifically, the workshop will consider the possible establishment of
> a development agenda for Internet governance that would facilitate
> implementation of the WSIS principles and the IGF mandate. A development
> agenda is a holistic program of analysis and action intended to mainstream
> development considerations into the procedures and policy outputs of global
> governance mechanisms. While there have been concerted efforts to pursue
> such agendas in the multilateral institutions dealing with issues like
> international trade and intellectual property, there has been no discussion
> of a corresponding initiative for global Internet governance. With this in
> mind, a workshop entitled “Toward a Development Agenda for Internet
> Governance” was held at the IGF in Rio de Janeiro in 2007
> http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2007report. Participants considered the
> general desirability of pursuing a development agenda and agreed that a
> properly configured and consensual initiative could help to promote an open,
> accessible, diverse, and secure global Internet. To carry the discussion
> forward, a second workshop entitled “A Development Agenda for Internet
> Governance: From Principle to Practice” was held at the IGF in Hyderabad in
> 2008 http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2008report. Here participants began
> to explore the possible substantive focus and operational aspects of a
> development agenda, and inter alia affirmed that the IGF is the most
> appropriate venue in which to elaborate a cross-cutting and flexible agenda
> that could encourage development-oriented enhancements within Internet
> governance institutions.
>
> This third workshop in the series, to be held at the IGF in Sharm el
> Sheikh, will build on the prior discussions and seek to progress consensus
> building in three interrelated issue-areas:
>
> 1. The substantive focus of a development agenda, i.e. the key institutions
> and issues (pertaining both to Internet infrastructures and core resources
> and to their use for networked information, communication, and commerce) to
> be assessed from a developmental baseline so as to identify best practices
> and guidelines that organizations could consider employing within their
> respective work programs.
> 2. The procedural and institutional dimensions of an agenda, e.g. assessing
> the transparency and inclusiveness of participation, per the WSIS procedural
> principles, from the standpoint of people-centered development.
> 3. The operational aspects of pursuing an agenda in the IGF and beyond,
> e.g. the challenges of agenda setting, building a dynamic coalition and/or
> other collaborations, consensually defining assessment criteria and
> modalities, aggregating and presenting information, interfacing with
> governance stakeholders and institutions, providing feed-back mechanisms for
> input, etc.
>
>
> Institutional Co-Sponsors
>
> •       Government of Argentina (TBC)
> •       Association for Progressive Communications
> •       Centre for International Governance, Graduate Institute for
> International Studies
> •       Council of Europe
> •       Diplo Foundation
> •       Institute for Internet Policy & Law, Beijing Normal University
> •       Internet Society of China
> •       Federal Office of Communication, Government of Switzerland
>
>
> Scheduling and Remote Participation
>
> The workshop will be held on Day 3 of the IGF--- Tuesday 17 November, from
> 9:30-12:30 in Room 3, Suez Canal.
>
> Remote participation in the workshop will be provided for by the Center for
> Research on Collaboratories and Technology Enhanced Learning Communities at
> Syracuse University, USA.
>
> Information on computer system requirements and use of the webconferencing
> technology (Elluminate Live!) is available at:
> http://giganet.igloogroups.org/remotepart
>
> Remote participation during the workshop will be available at
> https://sas.elluminate.com/m.jnlp?password=M.10FC7E24BA568E8B69C7D3F0DDC21E
>
>
> Agenda
>
> I. Welcome and Overview by the organizer
>
> William J. Drake
> Senior Associate, Center for International Governance, Graduate Institute
> for International and Development Studies, Geneva, Switzerland
>
>
> II. Panel Presentations
>
> Moderator: William J. Drake
>
> Speakers
>
> Anriette Esterhuysen
> Executive Director, Association for Progressive Communications, South
> Africa
>
> Derrick Cogburn
> Associate Professor of International Relations, American University, and
> Senior Scientist and Chief Research Director at the School of Information
> Studies, Syracuse University, United States of America
>
> Olga Cavalli
> Advisor to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and representative to the
> Governmental Advisor Committee of ICANN, Government of Argentina
>
> Christine Arida
> Director for Telecom Planning and Services, Egyptian National Telecom
> Regulatory Authority (NTRA), Government of Egypt
>
> Alice Munyua
> Convenor, East African IGF and Kenya ICT Action Network,
> Communications Commission, Government of Kenya
>
> Hong Xue
> Professor of Law and Director of the Institute for Internet Policy & Law,
> Beijing Normal University, China
>
> Fiona Alexander
> Associate Administrator (Head of Office) for International Affairs,
> National Telecommunications and Information Administration, Department of
> Commerce, Government of the United States
>
> Elfa Yr Gylfadottir
> Adviser, Office of cultural affairs, Ministry of Education, Science and
> Culture, Iceland
>
>
> III. Q&A with the Panelists
>
>
> IV. Group Discussion
>
> Possible elements of a development agenda:
>
> 1. Capacity building
> 2. Institutional/procedural issues
> 3. Substantive policy issues: Governance of infrastructures
> 4. Substantive policy issues: Governance of networked
> information, communication & commerce
>
> How to move forward with a DA:
>
> 5. In the IGF & global IG institutions
> 6. Research and capacity building
>
>
> V. Synthesis and Conclusion
>
> ***********************************************************
> William J. Drake
> Senior Associate
> Centre for International Governance
> Graduate Institute of International and
>  Development Studies
> Geneva, Switzerland
> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
> www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
> ***********************************************************
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
COORDONNATEUR NATIONAL REPRONTIC
COORDONNATEUR SOUS REGIONAL ACSIS/AFRIQUE CENTRALE
MEMBRE FACILITATEUR GAID AFRIQUE
téléphone fixe: +243 1510 34 91
Téléphone mobile:+243998983491/+243999334571
                          +243811980914
email:b.schombe at gmail.com <email%3Ab.schombe at gmail.com>
blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
blog:http://educticafrique.ning.com/
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 04:50:43 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:50:43 +0300
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance 
In-Reply-To: <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911110150s1f4ed941h5c2c8ec2eb63eace@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:00 AM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> Hmmm....
>
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>
> http://internetgovernance.org
>
> Seems "confusingly similar."


or at least very confused, conflating "multistakeholder" with
"International" or "multicultural", not counting the large numbers of
ICANN staff from the developing world, or the "continuing cooperation"
ICANN has given to the IGF, including funding and staff time and
discounting the Board members (past and current) from the developing
world.

To mix threads here, ICANN and the rest of the Inet community have had
a "development agenda" for over a decade.

Bill,
I hope that you include in your workshop, the efforts and
accomplishments of ISOC, NSRC, AfNOG, SANOG, the earlier established
RIRs who helped to nurture emerging RIRs, ICANN, and a variety of
other organisations who have been focused on developing Internet
skills and penetration since the 1980's.


-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 05:15:18 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:15:18 +0500
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911110150s1f4ed941h5c2c8ec2eb63eace@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
	 <f65fb55e0911110150s1f4ed941h5c2c8ec2eb63eace@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911110215r795861ajfe68a43348052429@mail.gmail.com>

Hi McTim,

Acknowledging what you have said is very true and correct.

Just a clarification,  this is just the first post from my end and
these are my personal comments based on my initial feelings from the
ICANN meeting, please read the disclaimer at the bottom and the
intention of this blog is not to undermine anyone's or any
organization's efforts. Its true that at the end of the day, no two
people may have the same understanding of a single situation.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:50 PM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:00 AM, William Drake
> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>> Hmmm....
>>
>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>>
>> http://internetgovernance.org
>>
>> Seems "confusingly similar."
>
>
> or at least very confused, conflating "multistakeholder" with
> "International" or "multicultural", not counting the large numbers of
> ICANN staff from the developing world, or the "continuing cooperation"
> ICANN has given to the IGF, including funding and staff time and
> discounting the Board members (past and current) from the developing
> world.
>
> To mix threads here, ICANN and the rest of the Inet community have had
> a "development agenda" for over a decade.
>
> Bill,
> I hope that you include in your workshop, the efforts and
> accomplishments of ISOC, NSRC, AfNOG, SANOG, the earlier established
> RIRs who helped to nurture emerging RIRs, ICANN, and a variety of
> other organisations who have been focused on developing Internet
> skills and penetration since the 1980's.
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Wed Nov 11 06:38:07 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:38:07 +1100
Subject: [governance] Speakers list for IGF review
Message-ID: <C720ED4F.7D51%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

This has just been announced on IGF website. I suggest that people
interested in this should self nominate for the speakers list.

Ian Peter


Taking Stock and Looking Forward ­ on the desirability of the continuation
of the Forum.
18 November, 10:00 ­ 13:00

Chair: TBD

The focus of this three hour session will be: ³formal consultations with
Forum participants² on the ³desirability of the continuation of the Forum²,
as stipulated by Paragraph 76 of the Tunis Agenda. These consultations have
been initiated by an online process, starting with a questionnaire prepared
by the IGF secretariat. A synthesis paper reflecting all commentaries
received is available in all UN languages.

The discussions will be held on the basis of a pre-established speakers
list. Interested participants can request a speaking slot by sending an
email to igfstock at intgovforum.org with the heading ³taking stock².


____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From yjpark21 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 06:47:57 2009
From: yjpark21 at gmail.com (YJ Park)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:47:57 +0100
Subject: [governance] Fwd: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
In-Reply-To: <OF0DEC79AD.9BF2A114-ONC125766B.00387162-C125766B.00387163@unog.un.org>
References: <OF0DEC79AD.9BF2A114-ONC125766B.00387162-C125766B.00387163@unog.un.org>
Message-ID: <a74d36b0911110347p7c32a0cdsce047374730f914e@mail.gmail.com>

For those who plan to attend IGF either in person and remotely.
There will be "Formal Consultation with Forum Participants" on 18th.
Best,
YJ
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Markus KUMMER <MKUMMER at unog.ch>
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:16 AM
Subject: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
To: igf_members at intgovforum.org


Dear colleagues,

You may recall our discussion during last September's planning meeting with
regard to the "Taking Stock and Looking Forward" session.  As the mandate
calls for a "formal consultation with forum participants" we will organize
the session on the basis of a pre-established list of speakers.

We have opened the list and begun taking requests for speakers. Request can
be submitted by email to a dedicated address <igfstock at intgovforum.org> with
the subject line "taking stock".

Speakers will be asked to come up to the podium and make their statement
from the rostrum. As we expect great interest, interventions should not
exceed  3 minutes.

I would be grateful if you could spread the news through your respective
networks. The email address and links are on the IGF website; <
http://www.intgovforum.org/>

Best regards

Markus




_______________________________________________
igf_members mailing list
igf_members at intgovforum.org
http://intgovforum.org/mailman/listinfo/igf_members_intgovforum.org
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 07:26:49 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:26:49 -0500
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911110215r795861ajfe68a43348052429@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
	 <f65fb55e0911110150s1f4ed941h5c2c8ec2eb63eace@mail.gmail.com>
	 <701af9f70911110215r795861ajfe68a43348052429@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45ed74050911110426p7097be4m63a127184721c5f5@mail.gmail.com>

**Respectful Interfaces* e-note 101109:*

Very interesting discussion on, inter alia,  *core* issues pervading many
group-collaborative models, concepts and contexts, and indeed fundaments of
Representation:

*Nature and Scope of inclusivity/ inclusivness.*

Plus identifying/ managing *sets** *in the 'universe of discourse'  in
principle (and the target world of action  too!) *.*

Say on please.

Linda.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:15 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi McTim,
>
> Acknowledging what you have said is very true and correct.
>
> Just a clarification,  this is just the first post from my end and
> these are my personal comments based on my initial feelings from the
> ICANN meeting, please read the disclaimer at the bottom and the
> intention of this blog is not to undermine anyone's or any
> organization's efforts. Its true that at the end of the day, no two
> people may have the same understanding of a single situation.
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:50 PM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 10:00 AM, William Drake
> > <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> >> Hmmm....
> >>
> >> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >> http://internetgovernance.org
> >>
> >> Seems "confusingly similar."
> >
> >
> > or at least very confused, conflating "multistakeholder" with
> > "International" or "multicultural", not counting the large numbers of
> > ICANN staff from the developing world, or the "continuing cooperation"
> > ICANN has given to the IGF, including funding and staff time and
> > discounting the Board members (past and current) from the developing
> > world.
> >
> > To mix threads here, ICANN and the rest of the Inet community have had
> > a "development agenda" for over a decade.
> >
> > Bill,
> > I hope that you include in your workshop, the efforts and
> > accomplishments of ISOC, NSRC, AfNOG, SANOG, the earlier established
> > RIRs who helped to nurture emerging RIRs, ICANN, and a variety of
> > other organisations who have been focused on developing Internet
> > skills and penetration since the 1980's.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > McTim
> > "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> > route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> >     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> >     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> ICT4D & Internet Governance
> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
>  You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
- - -
With warm regards,
LDMF.
Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
914 769 3652
law /  computing / humanities:
Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the U.N.;
World Education Fellowship;
Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
Persons with Pain Intl.;
ICT multiple decades;
Other affiliations on Request.

n.b.:
- The *Respectful Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing
Diversity" (ask about leadership interning).
- Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the CCC/UN
(Gellermann et al).
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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Wed Nov 11 07:46:02 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:46:02 +0100
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
 http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911110150s1f4ed941h5c2c8ec2eb63eace@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com> <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch> <f65fb55e0911110150s1f4ed941h5c2c8ec2eb63eace@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA83B05D-975C-4DC1-8BCC-50E555E51876@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hi McTim

On Nov 11, 2009, at 10:50 AM, McTim wrote:

>
> Bill,
> I hope that you include in your workshop, the efforts and
> accomplishments of ISOC, NSRC, AfNOG, SANOG, the earlier established
> RIRs who helped to nurture emerging RIRs, ICANN, and a variety of
> other organisations who have been focused on developing Internet
> skills and penetration since the 1980's.

While the event is forward looking rather than historical and is more  
focused on global IG mechanisms than capacity building per se, it  
would of course be great if you and other people with these kinds of  
experiences were to come and participate, whether F2F or remotely.

Cheers,

Bill
____________________________________________________________
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From dannyyounger at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 11 08:38:29 2009
From: dannyyounger at yahoo.com (Danny Younger)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:38:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
Message-ID: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in working group activities -- see http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html

The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member participation whatsoever in several working groups:

Registration Abuse Policies WG
Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
Community Communications Coordination WG

These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in other working groups:

Policy Development Process WG
Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG

Not listed in this report was participation data for some of the newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation Amendments WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly have seen no active participation by members of these two constituencies.

When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group level it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge will be skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is not a healthy situation.

On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?



      

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From tijani.benjemaa at planet.tn  Wed Nov 11 08:43:39 2009
From: tijani.benjemaa at planet.tn (Tijani BEN JEMAA)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:43:39 +0100
Subject: [governance] Fwd: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
In-Reply-To: <a74d36b0911110347p7c32a0cdsce047374730f914e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF0DEC79AD.9BF2A114-ONC125766B.00387162-C125766B.00387163@unog.un.org> <a74d36b0911110347p7c32a0cdsce047374730f914e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9CF5FA078ABE4B59985ED185438FD277@MTBJ>

Dear Y.J.

 

You said 18th, but where and at what time?

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Tijani BEN JEMAA

Vice Président de la CIC

Fédération Mondiale des Organisations d'Ingénieurs

Tél : + 216 98 330 114

Fax : + 216 70 860 861

------------------------------------------------------------

 

  _____  

De : YJ Park [mailto:yjpark21 at gmail.com] 
Envoyé : mercredi 11 novembre 2009 12:48
À : governance at lists.cpsr.org
Objet : [governance] Fwd: [igf_members] Stocktaking session

 

For those who plan to attend IGF either in person and remotely.

There will be "Formal Consultation with Forum Participants" on 18th.

Best,

YJ

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Markus KUMMER <MKUMMER at unog.ch>
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:16 AM
Subject: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
To: igf_members at intgovforum.org



Dear colleagues,

 

You may recall our discussion during last September's planning meeting with
regard to the "Taking Stock and Looking Forward" session.  As the mandate
calls for a "formal consultation with forum participants" we will organize
the session on the basis of a pre-established list of speakers. 

 

We have opened the list and begun taking requests for speakers. Request can
be submitted by email to a dedicated address <igfstock at intgovforum.org> with
the subject line "taking stock". 


Speakers will be asked to come up to the podium and make their statement
from the rostrum. As we expect great interest, interventions should not
exceed  3 minutes.

I would be grateful if you could spread the news through your respective
networks. The email address and links are on the IGF website;
<http://www.intgovforum.org/>

Best regards

Markus

 

 


_______________________________________________
igf_members mailing list
igf_members at intgovforum.org
http://intgovforum.org/mailman/listinfo/igf_members_intgovforum.org

 

Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
Version: 8.5.425 / Base de données virale: 270.14.59/2494 - Date: 11/10/09
19:56:00

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From ajp at glocom.ac.jp  Wed Nov 11 08:55:33 2009
From: ajp at glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:55:33 +0900
Subject: [governance] Fwd: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
In-Reply-To: <9CF5FA078ABE4B59985ED185438FD277@MTBJ>
References:  <OF0DEC79AD.9BF2A114-ONC125766B.00387162-C125766B.00387163@unog.un.org>
 <a74d36b0911110347p7c32a0cdsce047374730f914e@mail.gmail.com>
 <9CF5FA078ABE4B59985ED185438FD277@MTBJ>
Message-ID: <p06240820c72072353506@[172.16.0.77]>

Please see the IGF website 
<http://www.intgovforum.org/> and official 
programme 
<http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/2009/sharm_el_Sheikh/Programme.MainSessions.html#Taking-Stock>.

(18 November, 10:00 ­ 13:00)

Best,

Adam



>Dear Y.J.
>
>You said 18th, but where and at what time?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Tijani BEN JEMAA
>Vice Président de la CIC
>Fédération Mondiale des Organisations d'Ingénieurs
>Tél : + 216 98 330 114
>Fax : + 216 70 860 861
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>De : YJ Park [mailto:yjpark21 at gmail.com]
>Envoyé : mercredi 11 novembre 2009 12:48
>À : governance at lists.cpsr.org
>Objet : [governance] Fwd: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
>
>For those who plan to attend IGF either in person and remotely.
>There will be "Formal Consultation with Forum Participants" on 18th.
>Best,
>YJ
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Markus KUMMER <<mailto:MKUMMER at unog.ch>MKUMMER at unog.ch>
>Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:16 AM
>Subject: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
>To: <mailto:igf_members at intgovforum.org>igf_members at intgovforum.org
>
>Dear colleagues,
>
>You may recall our discussion during last 
>September's planning meeting with regard to the 
>"Taking Stock and Looking Forward" session.  As 
>the mandate calls for a "formal consultation 
>with forum participants" we will organize the 
>session on the basis of a pre-established list 
>of speakers. 
>
>We have opened the list and begun taking 
>requests for speakers. Request can be submitted 
>by email to a dedicated address 
><<mailto:igfstock at intgovforum.org>igfstock at intgovforum.org> 
>with the subject line "taking stock".
>
>Speakers will be asked to come up to the podium 
>and make their statement from the rostrum. As we 
>expect great interest, interventions should not 
>exceed  3 minutes.
>I would be grateful if you could spread the news 
>through your respective networks. The email 
>address and links are on the IGF website; 
><<http://www.intgovforum.org/>http://www.intgovforum.org/>
>Best regards
>Markus
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>igf_members mailing list
><mailto:igf_members at intgovforum.org>igf_members at intgovforum.org
><http://intgovforum.org/mailman/listinfo/igf_members_intgovforum.org>http://intgovforum.org/mailman/listinfo/igf_members_intgovforum.org
>
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From yjpark21 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 09:04:01 2009
From: yjpark21 at gmail.com (YJ Park)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:04:01 +0100
Subject: [governance] Fwd: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
In-Reply-To: <9CF5FA078ABE4B59985ED185438FD277@MTBJ>
References: <OF0DEC79AD.9BF2A114-ONC125766B.00387162-C125766B.00387163@unog.un.org>
	 <a74d36b0911110347p7c32a0cdsce047374730f914e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <9CF5FA078ABE4B59985ED185438FD277@MTBJ>
Message-ID: <a74d36b0911110604k1d9e75abq15b28bd1cc19a8a3@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Tijani,

Adam already responded to your question.

Re remote participation, maybe some of us can coordinate between Sharm
El-Sheihk and remote participation, so the statement of those who remotely
participate in this event can be read by those who are in the event.
My two cents,
YJ
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa at planet.tn
> wrote:

>  Dear Y.J.
>
>
>
> You said 18th, but where and at what time?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Tijani BEN JEMAA*
>
> Vice Président de la *CIC***
>
> *F*édération *M*ondiale des *O*rganisations d'*I*ngénieurs
>
> *Tél :* + 216 98 330 114
>
> *Fax :* + 216 70 860 861
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *De :* YJ Park [mailto:yjpark21 at gmail.com]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 11 novembre 2009 12:48
> *À :* governance at lists.cpsr.org
> *Objet :* [governance] Fwd: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
>
>
>
> For those who plan to attend IGF either in person and remotely.
>
> There will be "Formal Consultation with Forum Participants" on 18th.
>
> Best,
>
> YJ
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Markus KUMMER* <MKUMMER at unog.ch>
> Date: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 11:16 AM
> Subject: [igf_members] Stocktaking session
> To: igf_members at intgovforum.org
>
>  Dear colleagues,
>
>
>
> You may recall our discussion during last September's planning meeting with
> regard to the "Taking Stock and Looking Forward" session.  As the mandate
> calls for a "formal consultation with forum participants" we will organize
> the session on the basis of a pre-established list of speakers.
>
>
>
> We have opened the list and begun taking requests for speakers. Request can
> be submitted by email to a dedicated address <igfstock at intgovforum.org>
> with the subject line "taking stock".
>
>
> Speakers will be asked to come up to the podium and make their statement
> from the rostrum. As we expect great interest, interventions should not
> exceed  3 minutes.
>
> I would be grateful if you could spread the news through your respective
> networks. The email address and links are on the IGF website; <
> http://www.intgovforum.org/>
>
> Best regards
>
> Markus
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> igf_members mailing list
> igf_members at intgovforum.org
> http://intgovforum.org/mailman/listinfo/igf_members_intgovforum.org
>
>
>
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> 19:56:00
>
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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Wed Nov 11 10:04:10 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:04:10 +0800
Subject: [governance] Speakers list for IGF review
In-Reply-To: <C720ED4F.7D51%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <C720ED4F.7D51%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <F48B313D-4F5F-4937-9E8E-A6B6E57A9FDB@ciroap.org>

On 11/11/2009, at 7:38 PM, Ian Peter wrote:

> This has just been announced on IGF website. I suggest that people
> interested in this should self nominate for the speakers list.

I nominated as soon as I saw it and received a canned response to  
"check the Web site", plus an autoreply from Markus Kummer.

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

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From cls at rkey.com  Wed Nov 11 10:34:20 2009
From: cls at rkey.com (Craig Simon)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:34:20 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AFAD97C.1010808@rkey.com>

Danny Younger wrote:
> On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?

Since you asked...

As I've mentioned before, I've put considerable effort into developing 
new a kind of collaborative decision-making venue that I believe would 
be of interest to folks here.

It plays off the ranked-choice, IRV system used in ICANN's Board Member 
election in 2000. You can see an operational demo on Facebook at 
http://apps.facebook.com/we-vote/ .

This project is a direct consequence of my Ph.D. research on Internet 
Governance. It's not a specific answer to the WG problems just noted, 
but it's definitely intended to "improve the overall situation."

The demo reflects what I've been able to accomplish without 
collaborators or outside resources. Are there any foundations, angels, 
or VCs out there who want to help me take it further?

Craig Simon
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From george.sadowsky at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 11 11:43:37 2009
From: george.sadowsky at attglobal.net (George Sadowsky)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:43:37 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
Message-ID: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>

Danny,

This is a good observation on your part.  Thanks for bringing it to the list.

As you know, the NCUC is being reformed as a result of the GNSO 
restructuring, and will be somewhat more comprehensive in composition 
in the future.  Also, as recent chair of the NCUC, Robin Gross has 
made significant initial progress in enlarging the existing group.

Perhaps ICANN's study will motivate these groups to involve 
themselves more in the working groups in the future.  This is 
especially important for the NCSG, which represents individual 
registrants who are further removed from ICANN activities than are 
the other constituencies within the GNSO.

(These are my own personal opinions.)

George

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At 5:38 AM -0800 11/11/09, Danny Younger wrote:
>ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in 
>working group activities -- see 
>http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html
>
>The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two 
>constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member 
>participation whatsoever in several working groups:
>
>Registration Abuse Policies WG
>Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
>Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
>Community Communications Coordination WG
>
>These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in other 
>working groups:
>
>Policy Development Process WG
>Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG
>
>Not listed in this report was participation data for some of the 
>newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation Amendments 
>WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly have seen no active 
>participation by members of these two constituencies.
>
>When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group 
>level it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge 
>will be skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is 
>not a healthy situation.
>
>On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What 
>suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?
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From plzak at arin.net  Wed Nov 11 13:39:51 2009
From: plzak at arin.net (Ray Plzak)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:39:51 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FEA070315E40A3489D38398C35FE7BB25AFA728C56@EDAMAME.arin.net>

Perhaps a closer look at the way the RIR policy fora work would be a good thing to do. All of them have active email lists and well attended policy meetings (which by the way are not at ICANN meetings).

Ray (speaking for myself)

-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Younger [mailto:dannyyounger at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 08:38
To: Governance List
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem

ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in working group activities -- see http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html

The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member participation whatsoever in several working groups:

Registration Abuse Policies WG
Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
Community Communications Coordination WG

These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in other working groups:

Policy Development Process WG
Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG

Not listed in this report was participation data for some of the newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation Amendments WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly have seen no active participation by members of these two constituencies.

When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group level it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge will be skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is not a healthy situation.

On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?



      

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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 11 15:44:23 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:44:23 +0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911111244q325d0b78r2f413d7374a2808a@mail.gmail.com>

I might have to keep my comments on ICANN to myself in my blog space
only because I am still trying to learn about the chaos. I've gotten
some heavy bashing on just asking questions in the IGF circles so I
resorted to learning the ICANN issues first hand and then gathering a
group of similar interests on IG and deliberating the issues within
that interest group. The idea is in a very basic stage at the moment
but hopefully I see some synergy in the near future on the issue.

Your comments Danny are recorded at my end as I collect my thoughts
after the ICANN meeting experience. I've heard a lot and witnessed a
great deal myself now but I need to learn to interpret this in a
language that is acceptable for further intervention by the larger
community....

I hope I am speaking sensibly?

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Danny Younger <dannyyounger at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in working group activities -- see http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html
>
> The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member participation whatsoever in several working groups:
>
> Registration Abuse Policies WG
> Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
> Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
> Community Communications Coordination WG
>
> These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in other working groups:
>
> Policy Development Process WG
> Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG
>
> Not listed in this report was participation data for some of the newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation Amendments WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly have seen no active participation by members of these two constituencies.
>
> When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group level it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge will be skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is not a healthy situation.
>
> On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 11 16:29:48 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:29:48 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
Message-ID: <25830234.1257974989080.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Fouad and all,

  For those of us that have been involved with ICANN for a number
of years and in mycase sense it's conception, we can recognize when
they officially speak and what is or what is not nonsense as well
as have at one time of another been bashed by member(s) of the\
ICANN Board or staff or otherwise diminished and/or admonished
inapropriately by same.  Yet such should not disuade you from
speaking out openly and transparently in a manner that you yourself
feels is appropriate or otherwise necessary regardless.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 11, 2009 2:44 PM
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, Danny Younger <dannyyounger at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
>
>I might have to keep my comments on ICANN to myself in my blog space
>only because I am still trying to learn about the chaos. I've gotten
>some heavy bashing on just asking questions in the IGF circles so I
>resorted to learning the ICANN issues first hand and then gathering a
>group of similar interests on IG and deliberating the issues within
>that interest group. The idea is in a very basic stage at the moment
>but hopefully I see some synergy in the near future on the issue.
>
>Your comments Danny are recorded at my end as I collect my thoughts
>after the ICANN meeting experience. I've heard a lot and witnessed a
>great deal myself now but I need to learn to interpret this in a
>language that is acceptable for further intervention by the larger
>community....
>
>I hope I am speaking sensibly?
>
>On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Danny Younger <dannyyounger at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in working group activities -- see http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html
>>
>> The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member participation whatsoever in several working groups:
>>
>> Registration Abuse Policies WG
>> Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
>> Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
>> Community Communications Coordination WG
>>
>> These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in other working groups:
>>
>> Policy Development Process WG
>> Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG
>>
>> Not listed in this report was participation data for some of the newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation Amendments WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly have seen no active participation by members of these two constituencies.
>>
>> When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group level it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge will be skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is not a healthy situation.
>>
>> On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Regards.
>--------------------------
>Fouad Bajwa
>Advisor & Researcher
>ICT4D & Internet Governance
>Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>My Blog: Internet's Governance
>http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>Follow my Tweets:
>http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>MAG Interview:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From MWong at piercelaw.edu  Wed Nov 11 16:50:59 2009
From: MWong at piercelaw.edu (Mary Wong)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:50:59 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>
References: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>
Message-ID: <4AFAEB730200005B00048322@BRENNAN>

The report that Danny mentions was discussed at a GNSO Council session during the recent ICANN meeting in Seoul. Several factors - such as the overwhelming number of issues currently "in process" within the GNSO, the fact that participation rates necessarily fluctuate depending on the issue(s) in question, and the inaccessibility of much of the information about ICANN policies and processes, were identified as contributing to the lack of participation as well as being a central problem facing newcomers to the ICANN community.
 
The most obvious fix is to lower the "barriers to entry" for newcomers and less experienced participants in ICANN. The various ICANN websites are apparently being revamped with this in mind, and ICANN itself has taken steps to conduct briefings for newer entrants at its meetings. More can, of course, be done and I hope that this list can generate constructive suggestions that can be forwarded to the ICANN Board and staff for consideration.
 
Regarding NCUC participation, George has mentioned (correctly) that NCUC has seen its membership rate climb dramatically in the past year. Many of the new members are also new to ICANN, so much of what I said before regarding accessibility of information (from acronyms to process) has definitely been a problem. There have also been issues relating to remote participation, language and the cost of attending ICANN meetings - all of which must be familiar issues to members of this list in other contexts. Given, then, that the current work groups and issues tend mostly to center on technical and other issues of larger concern to (say) registries and registrars, or on operational issues relating to the massive restructuring of the GNSO, my personal belief is that the lack of participation by NCUC members in these groups is no indication of NCUC's lack of depth, diversity or interest in ICANN and internet governance issues.
 
I'm heartened by the growth in NCUC membership, and in this regard welcome the structural change in the GNSO toward Stakeholder Groups, in which the NCUC has been placed into the Non-Commercial Stakeholder Group (NCSG). NCUC members have already expressed interest in working on issues within ICANN relating to (among others) development, education, philanthropy and consumer protection - I am hopeful that this is a positive sign of civil society engagement and diversity of interests within the ICANN community.
 
BTW, although I'm currently one of the NCSG Councillors to the GNSO, these are my personal views.
 
Best,
Mary
 
 
Mary W S Wong
Professor of Law & Chair, IP Programs
Franklin Pierce Law Center
Two White Street
Concord, NH 03301
USA
Email: mwong at piercelaw.edu
Phone: 1-603-513-5143
Webpage: http://www.piercelaw.edu/marywong/index.php
Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584


>>> George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at attglobal.net> 11/11/2009 11:43 AM >>>
Danny,

This is a good observation on your part.  Thanks for bringing it to the list.

As you know, the NCUC is being reformed as a result of the GNSO 
restructuring, and will be somewhat more comprehensive in composition 
in the future.  Also, as recent chair of the NCUC, Robin Gross has 
made significant initial progress in enlarging the existing group.

Perhaps ICANN's study will motivate these groups to involve 
themselves more in the working groups in the future.  This is 
especially important for the NCSG, which represents individual 
registrants who are further removed from ICANN activities than are 
the other constituencies within the GNSO.

(These are my own personal opinions.)

George

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At 5:38 AM -0800 11/11/09, Danny Younger wrote:
>ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in 
>working group activities -- see 
>http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html
>
>The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two 
>constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member 
>participation whatsoever in several working groups:
>
>Registration Abuse Policies WG
>Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
>Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
>Community Communications Coordination WG
>
>These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in other 
>working groups:
>
>Policy Development Process WG
>Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG
>
>Not listed in this report was participation data for some of the 
>newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation Amendments 
>WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly have seen no active 
>participation by members of these two constituencies.
>
>When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group 
>level it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge 
>will be skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is 
>not a healthy situation.
>
>On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What 
>suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 11 16:58:29 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:58:29 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: Voice of Elders
Message-ID: <32483967.1257976709243.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Wed Nov 11 16:41:11 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:41:11 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
Message-ID: <2217735.1257975671806.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Ray and all,

  I have participated on several of these RAA forums in the past,
but have found that they are not open and transparent/or open
to any and all that wish to participate.  This in and of itself
is misguided and very suspicious accordingly.  

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ray Plzak <plzak at arin.net>
>Sent: Nov 11, 2009 12:39 PM
>To: "governance at lists.cpsr.org" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>, Danny Younger <dannyyounger at yahoo.com>
>Subject: RE: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
>
>Perhaps a closer look at the way the RIR policy fora work would be a good thing to do. All of them have active email lists and well attended policy meetings (which by the way are not at ICANN meetings).
>
>Ray (speaking for myself)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Danny Younger [mailto:dannyyounger at yahoo.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 08:38
>To: Governance List
>Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
>
>ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in working group activities -- see http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html
>
>The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member participation whatsoever in several working groups:
>
>Registration Abuse Policies WG
>Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
>Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
>Community Communications Coordination WG
>
>These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in other working groups:
>
>Policy Development Process WG
>Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG
>
>Not listed in this report was participation data for some of the newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation Amendments WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly have seen no active participation by members of these two constituencies.
>
>When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group level it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge will be skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is not a healthy situation.
>
>On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?
>
>
>
>      
>
>____________________________________________________________
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Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From mueller at syr.edu  Wed Nov 11 17:10:09 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:10:09 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6EFB@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>



Danny,
You ask for suggestions to "remedy" the overall situation. To identify a remedy one must first identify the cause. 

The main reason NCUC's attendance in minor, specialized WGs has been minimized in the last 9 months is that it has been forced to fight a political battle for its very existence, and this has absorbed nearly all of the energies of its key activists. It seems, at least for now, to have won that battle and to have finally persuaded key Board members to take a more sensible approach to the formation of new Stakeholder Groups. It has also been forced to devote an enormous amount of energy into recruiting new members. Going forward you will see an expansion in our activity on a broad variety of areas, now that the organizational issue sare more or less settled. 

NCUC has however been extremely active on two issues that have much greater priority: the IRT/STI work on trademark protection in new TLDs, and the registtry-registrar separation issue. 

The WG you list are extremely technical and narrow in focus. Most of the new members we are recruiting simply would have no idea how to cope with them, either procedureally or substantively. It is a matter of education. We have succeeded in bringing in a whole new generation of members, but the idea that an NGO from Sri Lanka can join NCUC Tuesday and jump into a workshop on the intricacies of inter-registrar contracts on Wednesday is plainly unrealistic. This is all volunteer labor, and people tend to gravitate toward what they know and even then, it takes time to understand icann processes and politics. 

As an interesting and related question, may I ask you: did you participate in any of these WGs? As a former member of NCUC, you had many opportunities to do so but, as I recall, never did. Perhaps you can help answer your own question. 

--MM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Danny Younger [mailto:dannyyounger at yahoo.com] 
> 
> The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two 
> constituencies in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no 
> member participation whatsoever in several working groups:
> 
> Registration Abuse Policies WG
> Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-A
> Inter-Registrar Transfers WG-B
> Community Communications Coordination WG
> 
> These two constituencies also had very limited attendance in 
> other working groups:
> 
> Policy Development Process WG
> Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG
> 
> Not listed in this report was participation data for some of 
> the newer working groups such as the Registrar Accreditation 
> Amendments WG and the Registrant Rights WG that similarly 
> have seen no active participation by members of these two 
> constituencies.
> 
> When some constituencies fail to participate at the working 
> group level it is almost inevitable that whatever 
> recommendations emerge will be skewed as a result of 
> imbalanced input -- clearly this is not a healthy situation.
> 
> On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What 
> suggestions might you offer to improve this overall situation?
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
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From mueller at syr.edu  Wed Nov 11 17:20:15 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:20:15 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>
References: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6EFC@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>


George:
Understanding your intention to be helpful, here are my somewhat hasty responses as I prepare to go to IGF:

One IMPORTANT lesson that the Board can draw about "fixing an ICANN problem" is that the more complex and reversible it allows its processes to become the more it will disadvantage noncommercial groups and individual registrants relative to paid, professional indstry lobbyists. 

In other words, when the Board launches something like the IRT, which second-guesses policy that already emerged from a three-year GNSO policy process, and forces us to chase trademark and registry advocates around the world in a new series of events addressing a policy issue that we thought was already resolved, then the extra effort has to be taken away from something else. We do not have unlimited resources of time, money and labor. 

This is indeed an ICANN problem, not an NCUC problem.

More comments:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky at attglobal.net] 

> Perhaps ICANN's study will motivate these groups to involve 
> themselves more in the working groups in the future.

No, a study showing a lack of participation will not alter anything. What will alter levels of participation are a) stronger incentives for people to participate, and b) greater capacity on their part, via internal education and organization in the new NCSG, more money, and more people.

>  This is 
> especially important for the NCSG, which represents individual 
> registrants who are further removed from ICANN activities than are 
> the other constituencies within the GNSO.

We are not further removed. We are in the thick of things on issues that matter to our members (free expression, registrant rights, new TLDs, competition, multilingualism)

But we are not paid industrial lobbyists who stand to gain thousands of millions of dollars if the inter-registrar transfer policy is defined in a certain way or if so-called abuse policies are altered in one way or another. And we can only cover so many WGs and IRTs and consultations at once. The Board's continuing inability to understand basic, political science 101 features of collective action is always amazing to me. How can anyone expect nonprofit organizations to deovte as much time to ICANN WGs as Chuck Gomes, who is a well-paid, professional, full-time employee of VeriSign, whose very existence depends on ICANN contracts and policy? 

We will ALWAYS have to pick our battles and our battlegrounds carefully, and if we don't spend 10 hours a week on a bureuacratic work group defining PDP processes please excuse us, but we do have day jobs. 

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From dannyyounger at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 11 18:38:53 2009
From: dannyyounger at yahoo.com (Danny Younger)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:38:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6EFB@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <196905.76887.qm@web110110.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hello Milton,

Re:  "may I ask you: did you participate in any of these WGs? As a former member of NCUC, you had many opportunities to do so but, as I recall, never did."

I'm really sorry to hear that your memory is fading, but perhaps this will jog your recollection:  as an NCUC member I drafted the Revised & final (v3) Policy Discussion Document (PDPFeb06) for the Contractual Conditions WG as a Rapporteur submission... (you yourself spent a bit of time editing my work as I recall).  

With regard to current participation, while I am not a member of any constituency at the moment, I am nevertheless actively participating in the RAA amendments WG and recently submitted a list of 26 amendment topics for consideration;  the WG also received recommendations from law enforcement and from the intellectual property community but none from any civil society contingent as yet -- you may want to jump into this WG sometime soon...  

You may also recall that it was my initiative within NARALO that led to the formation of the Post Expiry Domain Name Recovery WG -- see http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/na-discuss_atlarge-lists.icann.org/2008-August/002593.html

....and likely you will also recall that I chaired the At-Large's New Constituencies Working Group.  So, I do try to stay involved.... and I do contribute regularly to ICANN's Public Comment Forums.

I posted this note because I believe that a greater degree of participation is sorely needed right now (as the GNSO currently has an inordinate amount of work on its plate).  Perhaps some of the 80 organizations that are NCUC members can be coaxed into participating just a wee bit more....

Be well,
Danny


      

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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Wed Nov 11 19:20:22 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:20:22 +1100
Subject: [governance] Reminder re IGC caucus meeting at Sharm
Message-ID: <C7219FF6.7DBA%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Just to remind everyone that our meeting is scheduled for Saturday Evening,
November 14, from 7pm to 8pm at the conference venue. The room is the Nile
Valley room, which will have been used for Giganet earlier in the day.

Please make every effort to be on time, particularly if coming from other
venues and meetings, as we will not be able to run overtime with this
meeting and many people will be keen to get the days meetings out of the way
and relax. So I hope we can start promptly at 7pm and, if anything, finish
early.



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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Wed Nov 11 19:24:19 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:24:19 +1100
Subject: [governance] My movements
Message-ID: <C721A0E3.7DBE%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

For anyone needing to contact me at the last minute -

Airline gods willing, I will be arriving Sharm about 9am on November 14
after an overnight flight and staying at Rehana Resort. Perhaps anything
really urgent it might be good to leave a message at the hotel reception as
I am not sure that on arrival I will be all that into checking my email. But
I am likely to check on line messages some time before our 7pm meeting
Saturday night.

Ian


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From george.sadowsky at attglobal.net  Wed Nov 11 19:52:53 2009
From: george.sadowsky at attglobal.net (George Sadowsky)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:52:53 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To:  <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6EFC@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
References: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>
 <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6EFC@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <p0620075ec720f76d5542@[192.168.248.66]>

Hi, Milton.

Responses are inserted below.  Note that these are my personal 
opinions only.  And, since we will both be in Sharm el Sheikh, we can 
continue this discussion there face to face, if you wish.

At 5:20 PM -0500 11/11/09, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>George:
>Understanding your intention to be helpful, here are my somewhat 
>hasty responses as I prepare to go to IGF:
>
>One IMPORTANT lesson that the Board can draw about "fixing an ICANN 
>problem" is that the more complex and reversible it allows its 
>processes to become the more it will disadvantage noncommercial 
>groups and individual registrants relative to paid, professional 
>indstry lobbyists.

I am sympathetic to the principle.  In real life, however, change 
happens, change both generated within an organization or external to 
the organization, and unintended and unforeseen consequences emerge. 
It would not at all be good policy to deny opening previously closed 
questions solely on the basis that they were previoiusly closed.

>
>In other words, when the Board launches something like the IRT, 
>which second-guesses policy that already emerged from a three-year 
>GNSO policy process, and forces us to chase trademark and registry 
>advocates around the world in a new series of events addressing a 
>policy issue that we thought was already resolved, then the extra 
>effort has to be taken away from something else. We do not have 
>unlimited resources of time, money and labor.
>
>This is indeed an ICANN problem, not an NCUC problem.

It's certainly correct that the IRT was a Board creation, created 
quickly, and the makeup of its composition not as thoughtful of 
balance as it might have been.  Yet given the new gTLDs policy and a 
strong and emerging concern regarding IPR rights, the need for some 
consideration of the issue was (at least to me) apparent.

Perhaps, for a subset of issues, ICANN needs to fashion faster 
processes that are efficient and effective and yet provide balance 
between the affected stakeholders.  Current policy development takes 
a long time at ICANN.

>
>More comments:
>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: George Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky at attglobal.net]
>
>>  Perhaps ICANN's study will motivate these groups to involve
>>  themselves more in the working groups in the future.
>
>No, a study showing a lack of participation will not alter anything. 
>What will alter levels of participation are a) stronger incentives 
>for people to participate, and b) greater capacity on their part, 
>via internal education and organization in the new NCSG, more money, 
>and more people.

Sorry, the study of participation showing low rates will be taken by 
some, rightly or wrongly, as a lack of interest, action, and 
effective representation.  If only for political positioning, it's a 
bad result.

While I agree with your points a) and b), and clearly with the 
positive effect of more money and more people, in the ICANN structure 
NCSG represents millions of registrants who have only one or a few 
domains.  If NCSG is to effectively represent this large constituency 
in the GNSO, it should be obligated to participate in the work of the 
working groups, even if the work of the groups is less relevant to 
individual and non-commercial registrants than it is to the other SOs 
in the GNSO.

>
>>   This is
>>  especially important for the NCSG, which represents individual
>>  registrants who are further removed from ICANN activities than are
>>  the other constituencies within the GNSO.
>
>We are not further removed. We are in the thick of things on issues 
>that matter to our members (free expression, registrant rights, new 
>TLDs, competition, multilingualism)

In the earlier comments, perhaps I should have said "individual 
registrants, the great majority of who are further removed from ICANN 
activities than the great majority of actors in the other 
constituencies ..."

The core NCSG group is clearly are in the thick of the issues you 
mention above, but it's your judgment that elevates these particular 
issues to high priority status.  Are you sure that those priorities 
represent the priorities of your constituency.  How about registrar 
transfer policy, which I think you put at a lower priority level?

>
>But we are not paid industrial lobbyists who stand to gain thousands 
>of millions of dollars if the inter-registrar transfer policy is 
>defined in a certain way or if so-called abuse policies are altered 
>in one way or another.

Quite so, but it's the registrants you represent that benefit from 
involvement in assuring that the transfer policy is as simple and 
useful as possible for them.

>  And we can only cover so many WGs and IRTs and consultations at 
>once. The Board's continuing inability to understand basic, 
>political science 101 features of collective action is always 
>amazing to me. How can anyone expect nonprofit organizations to 
>devote as much time to ICANN WGs as Chuck Gomes, who is a well-paid, 
>professional, full-time employee of VeriSign, whose very existence 
>depends on ICANN contracts and policy?

This argues strongly for increasing the breadth of the NCSG and 
increasing the number of people who collectively have interests in 
the broad spectrum of GNSO concerns, so that participation in the 
working groups will be much more likely.

Further, it's generally not non-profit organizations that devote time 
to such causes, it's dedicated individuals whose organizations permit 
them, either formally or informally, to engage in such activities.  A 
good part of what makes the Internet valuable is the work of current 
and past dedicated volunteers, some of whom are members of this list, 
who contribute in a wide variety of ways.

So perhaps you are implying that volunteers find the ICANN process 
sufficiently unproductive and therefore do not participate.  Yet I 
know volunteers within ICANN who are giving a lot of time to work in 
the ICANN structure and who are uncompensated for it and giving up 
external income to do it.  My sense is that we do not have a critical 
mass of such people, but we have the possibility of achieving that 
critical mass.   Robin has jump-started that process.

>
>We will ALWAYS have to pick our battles and our battlegrounds 
>carefully, and if we don't spend 10 hours a week on a bureuacratic 
>work group defining PDP processes please excuse us, but we do have 
>day jobs.


Regards,

George
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Wed Nov 11 20:01:31 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:01:31 +1100
Subject: [governance] Speakers list for IGF review
In-Reply-To: <F48B313D-4F5F-4937-9E8E-A6B6E57A9FDB@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <C721A99B.7DC4%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Maybe try again - you might have been too quick off the mark!



On 12/11/09 2:04 AM, "Jeremy Malcolm" <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:

> On 11/11/2009, at 7:38 PM, Ian Peter wrote:
> 
>> This has just been announced on IGF website. I suggest that people
>> interested in this should self nominate for the speakers list.
> 
> I nominated as soon as I saw it and received a canned response to
> "check the Web site", plus an autoreply from Markus Kummer.


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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Thu Nov 12 06:24:36 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:24:36 +0800
Subject: [governance] A really useful resource for those at the IGF
Message-ID: <9FA32CEB-D930-4BA7-8793-7D7EE453D99F@ciroap.org>

One of the suggestions made at the September consultation, by Mr  
Narani of India, was that there should be a downloadable calendar of  
events that people can load into their calendar software of choice.

In fact, a little-known fact is that this already exists.  It is a  
resource that was initiated by the Online Collaboration Dynamic  
Coalition back in 2007.  Although the OCDC is no longer active (for  
annoying but not relevant reasons), I have been continuing to update  
the IGF Community Site that it developed at http://igf-online.net,  
including the calendar.

You can access the calendar either on the Web here:

   http://igf-online.net/phpicalendar/

or (even better) import this open-standard iCalendar file into your  
own calendar software, such as iCal, Sunbird, Lightning, Google  
Calendar, Evolution and others:

   http://igf-online.net/?ec3_ical

Other things that you can do with the IGF Community Site at http://igf-online.net 
  include:

* Register on the Wordpress blog at http://igf-online.net and post  
blog entries in a central location that may be better-known and  
indexed than your personal blog;

* Alternatively, make sure that your personal blog is aggregated in  
the IGF blog aggregator at http://igf-online.net/gregarius;

* Use the wiki at http://wiki.igf-online.net/ - although mostly empty,  
this is still quietly used by a few including the Privacy Dynamic  
Coalition (see http://wiki.igf-online.net/wiki/Privacy);

* Join an IRC chat forum (#igf on chat.freenode.net - there's a Web  
interface for it on the site);

* All pages at http://igf-online.net share a common multilingual link  
bar across the top, that links to all the known official and  
unofficial online resources for the IGF.

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

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7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

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From charityg at diplomacy.edu  Thu Nov 12 09:28:01 2009
From: charityg at diplomacy.edu (Charity Gamboa)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:28:01 -0600
Subject: [governance] Reminder re IGC caucus meeting at Sharm
In-Reply-To: <C7219FF6.7DBA%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <C7219FF6.7DBA%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <ad14556f0911120628l5cd8de18vaf99fa228e48a415@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ian,

Will try to make it as soon as we are done with the ISOC meeting on the
14th. I am leaving now for Sharm. See you!

Regards,
Charity

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:

> Just to remind everyone that our meeting is scheduled for Saturday Evening,
> November 14, from 7pm to 8pm at the conference venue. The room is the Nile
> Valley room, which will have been used for Giganet earlier in the day.
>
> Please make every effort to be on time, particularly if coming from other
> venues and meetings, as we will not be able to run overtime with this
> meeting and many people will be keen to get the days meetings out of the
> way
> and relax. So I hope we can start promptly at 7pm and, if anything, finish
> early.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
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> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
http://charitygamboa.towerofbabel.com
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Thu Nov 12 10:11:44 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:11:44 +0000
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <202486.82478.qm@web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5+5+GDZwWC$KFA$y@perry.co.uk>

In message <202486.82478.qm at web110113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, at 05:38:29 
on Wed, 11 Nov 2009, Danny Younger <dannyyounger at yahoo.com> writes
>ICANN recently published a study of constituency participation in 
>working group activities -- see 
>http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg07806.html
>
>The attendance rosters paint a very sad picture -- two constituencies 
>in particular (the ISPs and the NCUC) had no member participation 
>whatsoever in several working groups:
>
>Registration Abuse Policies WG

If I could stick my head above the parapet here.... I participate as an 
individual, but if I had to name a constituency (which I don't think is 
compulsory) the NCUC would be the one. [I've discussed this in the past 
with Milton, without ever actually joining it formally].

>When some constituencies fail to participate at the working group level 
>it is almost inevitable that whatever recommendations emerge will be 
>skewed as a result of imbalanced input -- clearly this is not a healthy 
>situation.
>
>On this list are many veterans of the ICANN process.  What suggestions 
>might you offer to improve this overall situation?

It's a lot of work, you need to find people to encourage and support 
you.
-- 
Roland Perry
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From ocl at gih.com  Thu Nov 12 10:37:21 2009
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:37:21 +0100
Subject: [governance] Fw: [Nom-comm-2010] NomCom event during IGF
Message-ID: <BB6F1513DA6D44DB8087EC271E5BB382@GIH.CO.UK>


Folks,

Apologies for cross-posting but this event is not on the official IGF schedule, so please disseminate widely.
Warm regards,

Olivier
Member of ICANN NomCom 2010


-------------------------------- 
ICANN NomCom Outreach Meeting at the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Sharm el Sheikh

 

Do you want to become a leader in ICANN? Then you should join the ICANN NomCom Outreach meeting on Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 1.15 p.m. - 2.00 p.m. in Room 6 (Biblioteca Alexandria). The session will explain how you could become more involved in ICANN's multi-stakeholder bottom up policy development process and what you have to do to present a "Statement of Interest" (SOI) for one of the leading positions within ICANN. In 2010, ICANN's Nominating Committee will appoint three ICANN Directors, one ccNSO and one GNSO Council member and two members of the At Large Advisory Committee (ALAC).

 

You will have a chance to meet Rod Beckstrom, ICANN's new President & CEO, ICANN Directors, selected by previous NomComs and ICANN staff. The session will be moderated by Wolfgang Kleinwächter, Chair of the 2010 NomCom.

 

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From mueller at syr.edu  Thu Nov 12 11:49:40 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:49:40 -0500
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911102310l6c481762x1fdbb0f80a229e06@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
 <701af9f70911102310l6c481762x1fdbb0f80a229e06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD175F@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>

Fouad:
Of course Bill was joking. 
IGP promises never to claim ownership of the term "internet governance" [or even "internets governance"] and looking at your site it is clear that there is no attempt to confuse people into thinking that your blog and ours are the same. This is a good example of how looking only at domain name string similarity does not provide an adequate assessment of confusing similarity in a legal/trademark sense. ICANN take note.

--MM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fouad Bajwa [mailto:fouadbajwa at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:11 AM
> To: William Drake
> Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
> 
> Haha, well said Bill, but I am on Internet's Governance and on a third
> level domain whereas Milton is on the first level of everything :o)
> It's a hosted blog, didn't have the resources to manage a complete
> gTLD :o)
> 
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:00 PM, William Drake
> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> > Hmmm....
> >
> > http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> >
> > http://internetgovernance.org
> >
> > Seems "confusingly similar."  Maybe a case for the UDRP?  :-)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >> I wanted to share the link to my blog that specifically covers global
> >> Internet governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >> The motivation comes after repeated requests from friends and
> >> colleagues to consolidate my comments related to IGF and and now ICANN
> >> as well as IG in general within a single space that is both accessible
> >> to share comments.
> >>
> >> Therefore, I will be collecting all my thoughts and comments from
> >> participation within the IGF and ICANN meetings on a regular basis and
> >> feel free to comment and share your own ideas thereof. Do follow my
> >> comments from the IGF meeting in Sharam El-Sheikh and my endeavours on
> >> IG at ICANN.
> >>
> >> If you have any information or links that you may want to share
> >> including links to your blogs, I would love to share them on my blog
> >> and vice versa.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards.
> >> --------------------------
> >> Fouad Bajwa
> >> Advisor & Researcher
> >> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> >> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> >> Follow my Tweets:
> >> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> >> MAG Interview:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> >> ____________________________________________________________
> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> >> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> >>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >>
> >> For all list information and functions, see:
> >>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> > ***********************************************************
> > William J. Drake
> > Senior Associate
> > Centre for International Governance
> > Graduate Institute of International and
> >  Development Studies
> > Geneva, Switzerland
> > william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
> > www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
> > ***********************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> ICT4D & Internet Governance
> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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From mueller at syr.edu  Thu Nov 12 12:14:54 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:14:54 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To: <p0620075ec720f76d5542@[192.168.248.66]>
References: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>
 <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6EFC@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
 <p0620075ec720f76d5542@[192.168.248.66]>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD1760@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky at attglobal.net]
> 
> It's certainly correct that the IRT was a Board creation, created
> quickly, and the makeup of its composition not as thoughtful of
> balance as it might have been.  Yet given the new gTLDs policy and a
> strong and emerging concern regarding IPR rights, the need for some
> consideration of the issue was (at least to me) apparent.

Then don't complain that noncommercial and unpaid individuals and activists can't keep up. You can't have it both ways. Either stabilize your processes and make them less discretionary, complex and whimsical, or accept the fact that no one except a full-time paid lobbyist like Chuck Gomes or Marilyn Cade can keep up with them all. 

> Sorry, the study of participation showing low rates will be taken by
> some, rightly or wrongly, as a lack of interest, action, and
> effective representation.  If only for political positioning, it's a
> bad result.

I've just explained to you why the "lack of interest, action and effective representation" interpretation is wrong. I hope you agree. However, some of us would openly admit to a total lack of interest in some of the more bureaucratic GNSO WGs, and would strongly assert that we would be doing our constituency a disservice by devoting hours of work to that stuff. 

> domains.  If NCSG is to effectively represent this large constituency
> in the GNSO, it should be obligated to participate in the work of the
> working groups, even if the work of the groups is less relevant to

Ah, please tell me George, how you plan to enforce this "obligation?" When nonprofits and individuals join NCUC, they are not being conscripted into an army subject to military command. If people are not motivated or capable of participating, they don't participate. Many a time we have delegated someone to these WGs only to learn that they dropped out or didn't effectively participate, either because they got suddenly busy at their real work/life, or because they got weary of hearing the same chorus and same obstructionist tactics from certain business groups that I won't name here. Please get a grip on the reality of the situation. There are no human resources out there for us or you to command.

> The core NCSG group is clearly are in the thick of the issues you
> mention above, but it's your judgment that elevates these particular
> issues to high priority status.  Are you sure that those priorities
> represent the priorities of your constituency.  

Yes, I am quite sure. 

Anyone in NCUC can get involved in any WG they want. Surely you are familiar with the common pattern in volunteer organizations. For every 100 members, there are 2-10 people who can be reliably counteed on to do any work. Some tasks motivated the members, others don't. The harder and more specialized and narrow  the work is, the lower that ratio gets. This is just common sense. 

> How about registrar
> transfer policy, which I think you put at a lower priority level?

It is an important issue, but few people have the expertise to contend with this issue on the same level as a registry or registrar whose full time job it is. I have personally begged three different major consumer organizations to get involved in these WGs. None of them prioritized it. They have bigger fish to fry: net neutrality, wireless spectrum policy, privacy in SNS sites, etc. etc. etc.

If you believe that there are hundreds or even dozens of individual registrants clamoring to get into the inter-registrar transfers WG and that NCUC is somehow keeping them out, please produce a list of names. I am sure Robin, the current chair, and everyone else in NCSG will welcome them with open arms. 

> Quite so, but it's the registrants you represent that benefit from
> involvement in assuring that the transfer policy is as simple and
> useful as possible for them.

This whole ICANN religion that somehow the people who participate "represent" millions of others is completely false. But that's a more extended conversation for another day. 

You don't "represent" anyone nor do I, fundamentally. We get involved because we know things about the Internet and have beliefs about how policy should go. That's it.

ICANN's participatory organs represent the people who are interested and capable enough to get involved in them. Full stop. 

> This argues strongly for increasing the breadth of the NCSG and
> increasing the number of people who collectively have interests in
> the broad spectrum of GNSO concerns, so that participation in the
> working groups will be much more likely.

You speak of "increasing the breadth" as if some command could be issued and suddenly millions of people with loads of free time on their hands will immediately appear and be sorted into work tasks. Sure, there is some room for better informing larger numbers of people, but basically ICANN attracts the people who have a direct and immediate interest in its activities and fails to inspire the billions who don't. 

> Further, it's generally not non-profit organizations that devote time
> to such causes, it's dedicated individuals whose organizations permit
> them, either formally or informally, to engage in such activities.  A
> good part of what makes the Internet valuable is the work of current
> and past dedicated volunteers, some of whom are members of this list,
> who contribute in a wide variety of ways.

Yes, indeed. You've got it. It's basically motivated individuals. You cannot command them to appear, and if they don't appear, you can't blame the people who are already involved for the lack of interest in what ICANN does. 

> So perhaps you are implying that volunteers find the ICANN process
> sufficiently unproductive and therefore do not participate.  Yet I
> know volunteers within ICANN who are giving a lot of time to work in
> the ICANN structure and who are uncompensated for it and giving up
> external income to do it.  My sense is that we do not have a critical

You are talking now to one of those dedicated individuals, someone who has done more than his share of creating and sustaining the platform around which noncommercial orgs and individuals can participate.

As one of those dedicated individuals, I ask you: what is your message to me? What are you trying to tell me? 

Give me a practical action item. 

And make sure it is NOT "make millions of people with hundreds of more important things in their lives devote 30 hours a week to ICANN" because that's not going to happen.

--MM
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 12:25:37 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:25:37 +0500
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
In-Reply-To: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD175F@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
References: <701af9f70911101326u21e84eeejddfc948f37600fc5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0E35FBE4-471B-4D1C-93DB-2A419C9B13DD@graduateinstitute.ch>
	 <701af9f70911102310l6c481762x1fdbb0f80a229e06@mail.gmail.com>
	 <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD175F@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911120925i497b2076hdce7476d30e2e12b@mail.gmail.com>

Haha, true Milton and that's why I have stated in the Title that it's me!

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> wrote:
> Fouad:
> Of course Bill was joking.
> IGP promises never to claim ownership of the term "internet governance" [or even "internets governance"] and looking at your site it is clear that there is no attempt to confuse people into thinking that your blog and ours are the same. This is a good example of how looking only at domain name string similarity does not provide an adequate assessment of confusing similarity in a legal/trademark sense. ICANN take note.
>
> --MM
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fouad Bajwa [mailto:fouadbajwa at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:11 AM
>> To: William Drake
>> Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Subject: Re: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
>>
>> Haha, well said Bill, but I am on Internet's Governance and on a third
>> level domain whereas Milton is on the first level of everything :o)
>> It's a hosted blog, didn't have the resources to manage a complete
>> gTLD :o)
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:00 PM, William Drake
>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>> > Hmmm....
>> >
>> > http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> >
>> > http://internetgovernance.org
>> >
>> > Seems "confusingly similar."  Maybe a case for the UDRP?  :-)
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>> > On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Everyone,
>> >>
>> >> I wanted to share the link to my blog that specifically covers global
>> >> Internet governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> >>
>> >> The motivation comes after repeated requests from friends and
>> >> colleagues to consolidate my comments related to IGF and and now ICANN
>> >> as well as IG in general within a single space that is both accessible
>> >> to share comments.
>> >>
>> >> Therefore, I will be collecting all my thoughts and comments from
>> >> participation within the IGF and ICANN meetings on a regular basis and
>> >> feel free to comment and share your own ideas thereof. Do follow my
>> >> comments from the IGF meeting in Sharam El-Sheikh and my endeavours on
>> >> IG at ICANN.
>> >>
>> >> If you have any information or links that you may want to share
>> >> including links to your blogs, I would love to share them on my blog
>> >> and vice versa.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Regards.
>> >> --------------------------
>> >> Fouad Bajwa
>> >> Advisor & Researcher
>> >> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> >> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> >> Follow my Tweets:
>> >> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> >> MAG Interview:
>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> >> ____________________________________________________________
>> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> >>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> >> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>> >>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>> >>
>> >> For all list information and functions, see:
>> >>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>> >
>> > ***********************************************************
>> > William J. Drake
>> > Senior Associate
>> > Centre for International Governance
>> > Graduate Institute of International and
>> >  Development Studies
>> > Geneva, Switzerland
>> > william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
>> > www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
>> > ***********************************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Fouad Bajwa
>> Advisor & Researcher
>> ICT4D & Internet Governance
>> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> Follow my Tweets:
>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> MAG Interview:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From george.sadowsky at attglobal.net  Thu Nov 12 13:37:10 2009
From: george.sadowsky at attglobal.net (George Sadowsky)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:37:10 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
In-Reply-To:  <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD1760@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
References: <p06200752c7209a2e30eb@[192.168.248.66]>
 <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D78FFC6EFC@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
 <p0620075ec720f76d5542@[192.168.248.66]>
 <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD1760@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>
Message-ID: <p06200701c722051f17d0@[10.0.1.3]>

I've tried to make a set of constructive comments about the NCUC and 
its relationship to ICANN.  According to Milton's post, which is 
tinged with anger, bitterness and frustration, I am being unrealistic 
and have failed.

I feel misinterpreted and I strongly disagree, but this conversation 
is going nowhere except, like many others, in the direction of 
acrimony and ad hominem attacks.  That's not productive; let's end it 
here.

George

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



At 12:14 PM -0500 11/12/09, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>  > -----Original Message-----
>>  From: George Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky at attglobal.net]
>>
>>  It's certainly correct that the IRT was a Board creation, created
>>  quickly, and the makeup of its composition not as thoughtful of
>>  balance as it might have been.  Yet given the new gTLDs policy and a
>>  strong and emerging concern regarding IPR rights, the need for some
>>  consideration of the issue was (at least to me) apparent.
>
>Then don't complain that noncommercial and unpaid individuals and 
>activists can't keep up. You can't have it both ways. Either 
>stabilize your processes and make them less discretionary, complex 
>and whimsical, or accept the fact that no one except a full-time 
>paid lobbyist like Chuck Gomes or Marilyn Cade can keep up with them 
>all.
>
>>  Sorry, the study of participation showing low rates will be taken by
>>  some, rightly or wrongly, as a lack of interest, action, and
>>  effective representation.  If only for political positioning, it's a
>>  bad result.
>
>I've just explained to you why the "lack of interest, action and 
>effective representation" interpretation is wrong. I hope you agree. 
>However, some of us would openly admit to a total lack of interest 
>in some of the more bureaucratic GNSO WGs, and would strongly assert 
>that we would be doing our constituency a disservice by devoting 
>hours of work to that stuff.
>
>>  domains.  If NCSG is to effectively represent this large constituency
>>  in the GNSO, it should be obligated to participate in the work of the
>>  working groups, even if the work of the groups is less relevant to
>
>Ah, please tell me George, how you plan to enforce this 
>"obligation?" When nonprofits and individuals join NCUC, they are 
>not being conscripted into an army subject to military command. If 
>people are not motivated or capable of participating, they don't 
>participate. Many a time we have delegated someone to these WGs only 
>to learn that they dropped out or didn't effectively participate, 
>either because they got suddenly busy at their real work/life, or 
>because they got weary of hearing the same chorus and same 
>obstructionist tactics from certain business groups that I won't 
>name here. Please get a grip on the reality of the situation. There 
>are no human resources out there for us or you to command.
>
>>  The core NCSG group is clearly are in the thick of the issues you
>>  mention above, but it's your judgment that elevates these particular
>>  issues to high priority status.  Are you sure that those priorities
>>  represent the priorities of your constituency. 
>
>Yes, I am quite sure.
>
>Anyone in NCUC can get involved in any WG they want. Surely you are 
>familiar with the common pattern in volunteer organizations. For 
>every 100 members, there are 2-10 people who can be reliably 
>counteed on to do any work. Some tasks motivated the members, others 
>don't. The harder and more specialized and narrow  the work is, the 
>lower that ratio gets. This is just common sense.
>
>>  How about registrar
>>  transfer policy, which I think you put at a lower priority level?
>
>It is an important issue, but few people have the expertise to 
>contend with this issue on the same level as a registry or registrar 
>whose full time job it is. I have personally begged three different 
>major consumer organizations to get involved in these WGs. None of 
>them prioritized it. They have bigger fish to fry: net neutrality, 
>wireless spectrum policy, privacy in SNS sites, etc. etc. etc.
>
>If you believe that there are hundreds or even dozens of individual 
>registrants clamoring to get into the inter-registrar transfers WG 
>and that NCUC is somehow keeping them out, please produce a list of 
>names. I am sure Robin, the current chair, and everyone else in NCSG 
>will welcome them with open arms.
>
>>  Quite so, but it's the registrants you represent that benefit from
>>  involvement in assuring that the transfer policy is as simple and
>>  useful as possible for them.
>
>This whole ICANN religion that somehow the people who participate 
>"represent" millions of others is completely false. But that's a 
>more extended conversation for another day.
>
>You don't "represent" anyone nor do I, fundamentally. We get 
>involved because we know things about the Internet and have beliefs 
>about how policy should go. That's it.
>
>ICANN's participatory organs represent the people who are interested 
>and capable enough to get involved in them. Full stop.
>
>>  This argues strongly for increasing the breadth of the NCSG and
>>  increasing the number of people who collectively have interests in
>>  the broad spectrum of GNSO concerns, so that participation in the
>>  working groups will be much more likely.
>
>You speak of "increasing the breadth" as if some command could be 
>issued and suddenly millions of people with loads of free time on 
>their hands will immediately appear and be sorted into work tasks. 
>Sure, there is some room for better informing larger numbers of 
>people, but basically ICANN attracts the people who have a direct 
>and immediate interest in its activities and fails to inspire the 
>billions who don't.
>
>>  Further, it's generally not non-profit organizations that devote time
>>  to such causes, it's dedicated individuals whose organizations permit
>>  them, either formally or informally, to engage in such activities.  A
>>  good part of what makes the Internet valuable is the work of current
>>  and past dedicated volunteers, some of whom are members of this list,
>>  who contribute in a wide variety of ways.
>
>Yes, indeed. You've got it. It's basically motivated individuals. 
>You cannot command them to appear, and if they don't appear, you 
>can't blame the people who are already involved for the lack of 
>interest in what ICANN does.
>
>>  So perhaps you are implying that volunteers find the ICANN process
>>  sufficiently unproductive and therefore do not participate.  Yet I
>>  know volunteers within ICANN who are giving a lot of time to work in
>>  the ICANN structure and who are uncompensated for it and giving up
>>  external income to do it.  My sense is that we do not have a critical
>
>You are talking now to one of those dedicated individuals, someone 
>who has done more than his share of creating and sustaining the 
>platform around which noncommercial orgs and individuals can 
>participate.
>
>As one of those dedicated individuals, I ask you: what is your 
>message to me? What are you trying to tell me?
>
>Give me a practical action item.
>
>And make sure it is NOT "make millions of people with hundreds of 
>more important things in their lives devote 30 hours a week to 
>ICANN" because that's not going to happen.
>
>--MM

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From anriette at apc.org  Thu Nov 12 13:53:58 2009
From: anriette at apc.org (Anriette Esterhuysen)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:53:58 +0200
Subject: [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
Message-ID: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>

PLEASE JOIN US FOR THE WORKSHOP ON A DRAFT CODE OF GOOD PRACTICE FOR
INTERNET GOVERNANCE VERSION 1.0 (Workshop 96) 
Wednesday 18 November, 9.00–10.30 am, Room 3: Suez Canal

This workshop is organised jointly by the United Nations Economic 
Commission for Europe (UNECE), the Council of Europe and the Association
for Progressive Communications (APC), taking forward a trilateral 
initiative that has been developed since the first IGF in Athens.

This workshop will be different from all the previous ones we
convened...We have a draft code and we need your feedback!

Visit http://intgovcode.org/index.php/Main_Page for background
information and a copy of the draft code.

This first draft of a Code of Good Practice on information, 
participation and transparency in Internet governance is based on the 
WSIS principles and on existing arrangements in Internet Governance 
institutions and uses the Aarhus Convention as a benchmark where 
appropriate. It is the result of consultations with IG stakeholders 
during the IGF process since 2006 and of a comparative assessment of 
existing information and participation arrangements in a number of 
selected Internet governance institutions that agreed to participate in 
this exercise.

The aim of the workshop is to discuss the draft text with a view to an 
agreement on its format and its key elements from the perspective of 
both Internet governance entities and Internet users.

The workshop will consist of different stakeholder groups discussing the
draft code of practice from their respective perspectives. Breakout 
groups will be facilitated by representatives of the various stakeholder
groups:

* Internet technical community (including naming and numbering orgs) - Constance Bommelaer, ISOC (Europe), 
Paul Wilson, APCNIC (Asia Pacific)
* Internet standards setting bodies (tbc)
* Capacity building organisations - Ms Natasha Primo, APC (Africa)
* Governments and Inter-governmental organisations- Mr Thomas Schneider,
BAKOM, Switzerland (Europe)
* Academic and research community – Jeanette Hoffman (Europe)
* Civil Society in Internet Governance – Brendan Kuerbis, Internet 
Governance Project (USA)

The initiative will be introduced by:

Michael Remmert, Council of Europe
Anriette Esterhuysen, APC, and,
David Souter, ict Development Associates

It will be facilitated by Karen Banks from the APC.

Looking forward to hearing your views on the draft code!


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
anriette esterhuysen - executive director
association for progressive communications
p o box 29755 melville - south africa 2109
anriette at apc.org - tel/fax + 27 11 726 1692
http://www.apc.org


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From ahmed.swapan at gmail.com  Thu Nov 12 14:55:48 2009
From: ahmed.swapan at gmail.com (Ahmed Swapan Mahmud)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:55:48 -0200
Subject: [governance] A really useful resource for those at the IGF
In-Reply-To: <9FA32CEB-D930-4BA7-8793-7D7EE453D99F@ciroap.org>
References: <9FA32CEB-D930-4BA7-8793-7D7EE453D99F@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <c81ef57a0911121155k490eeffaq622086e889a4f871@mail.gmail.com>

HI Jeremy

Thank you very much.

See you in Sharm.

Regards, Ahmed

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:

> One of the suggestions made at the September consultation, by Mr Narani of
> India, was that there should be a downloadable calendar of events that
> people can load into their calendar software of choice.
>
> In fact, a little-known fact is that this already exists.  It is a resource
> that was initiated by the Online Collaboration Dynamic Coalition back in
> 2007.  Although the OCDC is no longer active (for annoying but not relevant
> reasons), I have been continuing to update the IGF Community Site that it
> developed at http://igf-online.net, including the calendar.
>
> You can access the calendar either on the Web here:
>
>  http://igf-online.net/phpicalendar/
>
> or (even better) import this open-standard iCalendar file into your own
> calendar software, such as iCal, Sunbird, Lightning, Google Calendar,
> Evolution and others:
>
>  http://igf-online.net/?ec3_ical
>
> Other things that you can do with the IGF Community Site at
> http://igf-online.net include:
>
> * Register on the Wordpress blog at http://igf-online.net and post blog
> entries in a central location that may be better-known and indexed than your
> personal blog;
>
> * Alternatively, make sure that your personal blog is aggregated in the IGF
> blog aggregator at http://igf-online.net/gregarius;
>
> * Use the wiki at http://wiki.igf-online.net/ - although mostly empty,
> this is still quietly used by a few including the Privacy Dynamic Coalition
> (see http://wiki.igf-online.net/wiki/Privacy);
>
> * Join an IRC chat forum (#igf on chat.freenode.net - there's a Web
> interface for it on the site);
>
> * All pages at http://igf-online.net share a common multilingual link bar
> across the top, that links to all the known official and unofficial online
> resources for the IGF.
>
> --
> JEREMY MALCOLM
> Project Coordinator
> CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
> for Asia Pacific and the Middle East
>
> Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
> 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
> TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
> Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
> Mob: +60 12 282 5895
> Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
> www.consumersinternational.org
>
> Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global campaigning
> voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in 115 countries, we
> are building a powerful international consumer movement to help protect and
> empower consumers everywhere. For more information, visit
> www.consumersinternational.org.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
Executive Director, VOICE
House 67, Block-Ka
Pisciculture Housing Society
Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
Bangladesh
Tel : +88-02-8158688
Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
Alternate e-mail : exchange.voice at gmail.com
Website : www.voicebd.org
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From vanda at uol.com.br  Thu Nov 12 15:11:00 2009
From: vanda at uol.com.br (Vanda UOL)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:11:00 -0200
Subject: [governance] Fw: [Nom-comm-2010] NomCom event during IGF
In-Reply-To: <BB6F1513DA6D44DB8087EC271E5BB382@GIH.CO.UK>
References: <BB6F1513DA6D44DB8087EC271E5BB382@GIH.CO.UK>
Message-ID: <008201ca63d4$47111980$d5334c80$@com.br>

Excellent Olivier , I will  post it at my Diplo page. My regards to Wolfgang
!

 

cid:image002.jpg at 01C93E96.B7BF8BD0

Vanda Scartezini

Polo Consultores Associados

Alameda Santos 1470 #1407

Tel - +55.11.3266.6253

Mob- +55.11.8181.1464

vanda at uol.com.br

 

 

 

From: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond [mailto:ocl at gih.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:37 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; IRP at lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org
Subject: [governance] Fw: [Nom-comm-2010] NomCom event during IGF

 

 

Folks,

 

Apologies for cross-posting but this event is not on the official IGF
schedule, so please disseminate widely.

Warm regards,

 

Olivier

Member of ICANN NomCom 2010

 

 

-------------------------------- 

ICANN NomCom Outreach Meeting at the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in
Sharm el Sheikh

 

Do you want to become a leader in ICANN? Then you should join the ICANN
NomCom Outreach meeting on Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 1.15 p.m. - 2.00 p.m.
in Room 6 (Biblioteca Alexandria). The session will explain how you could
become more involved in ICANN's multi-stakeholder bottom up policy
development process and what you have to do to present a "Statement of
Interest" (SOI) for one of the leading positions within ICANN. In 2010,
ICANN's Nominating Committee will appoint three ICANN Directors, one ccNSO
and one GNSO Council member and two members of the At Large Advisory
Committee (ALAC).

 

You will have a chance to meet Rod Beckstrom, ICANN's new President & CEO,
ICANN Directors, selected by previous NomComs and ICANN staff. The session
will be moderated by Wolfgang Kleinwächter, Chair of the 2010 NomCom.

 

 

  _____  

 

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov 12 16:26:16 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:26:16 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: [ga] Registrants
Message-ID: <15352756.1258061176151.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Karl and all,

  Thank you for the accurate and full historic review.  Furhter
I agree with your final conclusion.  However this being again 
articulated, and thankfully more fully and accurately, what now
remains/exists is what we need to get busy working on and hopefully
singificantly improving, especially on the price and costing
side.  

-----Original Message-----
>From: Karl Auerbach <karl at CaveBear.com>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2009 1:59 PM
>To: ga at gnso.icann.org
>Subject: Re: [ga] Registrants
>
>
>On 11/11/2009 12:31 PM, Roberto Gaetano wrote:
>
>> Actually, the fees for domain names were introduced in 1995 by NetSol,
>> the then monopoly Registry/Registrar, well before ICANN.
>> For the record, in 1995 registrants were paying $50 for a domain name
>> under .com, 30% of which of tax. The tax was later lifted, but the $35
>> remained until ICANN introduced the separation between registry and
>> registrar that made the prices drop.
>
>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that was not what caused the 
>prices to drop, nor has ICANN allowed prices to drop to a level 
>commensurate with what was expected of the registry-registrar model.
>
>Originally, when SRI ran the domain name registry, names were free.
>
>Then along came Network Solutions and the Cooperative Agreement.
>
>Under the old cooperative agreement, once charging was allowed at all, 
>the price was fixed by the US Gov't at $50 with $15 going to the gov't 
>as a net-users tax.
>
>That $15 tax was declared unlawful and abandoned, leaving $35 per name.
>
>The Cooperative Agreement was to have ended in 1997 or 1998 (I forget 
>which) with Network Solutions/Verisign handing everything back to the Gov't.
>
>Obviously that never happened.
>
>Because of the unexpected growth of the net the USG was poised to get 
>stuck with some cost overruns and the US Gov't couldn't act fast enough 
>(the USG takes years to do things) to find its way out of the developing 
>mess.
>
>So, as a matter of expediency, the Cooperative Agreement was amended and 
>extended several times to become the umbrella for all things ICANN and 
>Verisign.
>
>As part of this the US Gov't caused ICANN to be created by the law firm 
>of Jones Day (a firm that still continues to this day to be one of 
>ICANN's largest creditors and which still maintains considerable 
>presence inside of ICANN.)
>
>ICANN did not change the game of prices.
>
>Rather it was the US Gov't that removed the price term, leaving the 
>price to float whether there is registrar/registry separation or not.
>
>In other words neither ICANN not the registry-registrar model can take 
>the credit for the price drop.
>
>The Cooperative Agreement games were documented in great depth in the 
>Rony's book 
>http://www.amazon.com/Domain-Handbook-Stakes-Strategies-Cyberspace/dp/0879305150/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258055878&sr=8-1
>
>But ICANN can take a bow and claim credit for the price not dropping as 
>far as it could have dropped:
>
>After the Gov't decreed price was eliminated ICANN inserted-back two 
>fixed-price components: the registry fee (a fee based on nothing more 
>substantial than warm air and hand waiving) and the ICANN tax.  The 
>impact of these forms in many cases the largest part of the overall 
>domain name cost to consumers.
>
>If ICANN were to allow the registry fee component to reflect actual 
>registry costs, internet users would save the larger part of a 
>$1,000,000,000 USD per year in excessive domain name fees.
>
>		--karl--
>
>

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov 12 16:29:47 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:29:47 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
Message-ID: <20559439.1258061387519.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

George and all,

  I agree fully.  We've seen/read too much of such nonsense
from Milton and others over the years.

-----Original Message-----
>From: George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at attglobal.net>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2009 12:37 PM
>To: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>, "'governance at lists.cpsr.org'" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>, Danny Younger <dannyyounger at yahoo.com>
>Subject: RE: [governance] Fixing an ICANN problem
>
>I've tried to make a set of constructive comments about the NCUC and 
>its relationship to ICANN.  According to Milton's post, which is 
>tinged with anger, bitterness and frustration, I am being unrealistic 
>and have failed.
>
>I feel misinterpreted and I strongly disagree, but this conversation 
>is going nowhere except, like many others, in the direction of 
>acrimony and ad hominem attacks.  That's not productive; let's end it 
>here.
>
>George
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>At 12:14 PM -0500 11/12/09, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>>  > -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: George Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky at attglobal.net]
>>>
>>>  It's certainly correct that the IRT was a Board creation, created
>>>  quickly, and the makeup of its composition not as thoughtful of
>>>  balance as it might have been.  Yet given the new gTLDs policy and a
>>>  strong and emerging concern regarding IPR rights, the need for some
>>>  consideration of the issue was (at least to me) apparent.
>>
>>Then don't complain that noncommercial and unpaid individuals and 
>>activists can't keep up. You can't have it both ways. Either 
>>stabilize your processes and make them less discretionary, complex 
>>and whimsical, or accept the fact that no one except a full-time 
>>paid lobbyist like Chuck Gomes or Marilyn Cade can keep up with them 
>>all.
>>
>>>  Sorry, the study of participation showing low rates will be taken by
>>>  some, rightly or wrongly, as a lack of interest, action, and
>>>  effective representation.  If only for political positioning, it's a
>>>  bad result.
>>
>>I've just explained to you why the "lack of interest, action and 
>>effective representation" interpretation is wrong. I hope you agree. 
>>However, some of us would openly admit to a total lack of interest 
>>in some of the more bureaucratic GNSO WGs, and would strongly assert 
>>that we would be doing our constituency a disservice by devoting 
>>hours of work to that stuff.
>>
>>>  domains.  If NCSG is to effectively represent this large constituency
>>>  in the GNSO, it should be obligated to participate in the work of the
>>>  working groups, even if the work of the groups is less relevant to
>>
>>Ah, please tell me George, how you plan to enforce this 
>>"obligation?" When nonprofits and individuals join NCUC, they are 
>>not being conscripted into an army subject to military command. If 
>>people are not motivated or capable of participating, they don't 
>>participate. Many a time we have delegated someone to these WGs only 
>>to learn that they dropped out or didn't effectively participate, 
>>either because they got suddenly busy at their real work/life, or 
>>because they got weary of hearing the same chorus and same 
>>obstructionist tactics from certain business groups that I won't 
>>name here. Please get a grip on the reality of the situation. There 
>>are no human resources out there for us or you to command.
>>
>>>  The core NCSG group is clearly are in the thick of the issues you
>>>  mention above, but it's your judgment that elevates these particular
>>>  issues to high priority status.  Are you sure that those priorities
>>>  represent the priorities of your constituency. 
>>
>>Yes, I am quite sure.
>>
>>Anyone in NCUC can get involved in any WG they want. Surely you are 
>>familiar with the common pattern in volunteer organizations. For 
>>every 100 members, there are 2-10 people who can be reliably 
>>counteed on to do any work. Some tasks motivated the members, others 
>>don't. The harder and more specialized and narrow  the work is, the 
>>lower that ratio gets. This is just common sense.
>>
>>>  How about registrar
>>>  transfer policy, which I think you put at a lower priority level?
>>
>>It is an important issue, but few people have the expertise to 
>>contend with this issue on the same level as a registry or registrar 
>>whose full time job it is. I have personally begged three different 
>>major consumer organizations to get involved in these WGs. None of 
>>them prioritized it. They have bigger fish to fry: net neutrality, 
>>wireless spectrum policy, privacy in SNS sites, etc. etc. etc.
>>
>>If you believe that there are hundreds or even dozens of individual 
>>registrants clamoring to get into the inter-registrar transfers WG 
>>and that NCUC is somehow keeping them out, please produce a list of 
>>names. I am sure Robin, the current chair, and everyone else in NCSG 
>>will welcome them with open arms.
>>
>>>  Quite so, but it's the registrants you represent that benefit from
>>>  involvement in assuring that the transfer policy is as simple and
>>>  useful as possible for them.
>>
>>This whole ICANN religion that somehow the people who participate 
>>"represent" millions of others is completely false. But that's a 
>>more extended conversation for another day.
>>
>>You don't "represent" anyone nor do I, fundamentally. We get 
>>involved because we know things about the Internet and have beliefs 
>>about how policy should go. That's it.
>>
>>ICANN's participatory organs represent the people who are interested 
>>and capable enough to get involved in them. Full stop.
>>
>>>  This argues strongly for increasing the breadth of the NCSG and
>>>  increasing the number of people who collectively have interests in
>>>  the broad spectrum of GNSO concerns, so that participation in the
>>>  working groups will be much more likely.
>>
>>You speak of "increasing the breadth" as if some command could be 
>>issued and suddenly millions of people with loads of free time on 
>>their hands will immediately appear and be sorted into work tasks. 
>>Sure, there is some room for better informing larger numbers of 
>>people, but basically ICANN attracts the people who have a direct 
>>and immediate interest in its activities and fails to inspire the 
>>billions who don't.
>>
>>>  Further, it's generally not non-profit organizations that devote time
>>>  to such causes, it's dedicated individuals whose organizations permit
>>>  them, either formally or informally, to engage in such activities.  A
>>>  good part of what makes the Internet valuable is the work of current
>>>  and past dedicated volunteers, some of whom are members of this list,
>>>  who contribute in a wide variety of ways.
>>
>>Yes, indeed. You've got it. It's basically motivated individuals. 
>>You cannot command them to appear, and if they don't appear, you 
>>can't blame the people who are already involved for the lack of 
>>interest in what ICANN does.
>>
>>>  So perhaps you are implying that volunteers find the ICANN process
>>>  sufficiently unproductive and therefore do not participate.  Yet I
>>>  know volunteers within ICANN who are giving a lot of time to work in
>>>  the ICANN structure and who are uncompensated for it and giving up
>>>  external income to do it.  My sense is that we do not have a critical
>>
>>You are talking now to one of those dedicated individuals, someone 
>>who has done more than his share of creating and sustaining the 
>>platform around which noncommercial orgs and individuals can 
>>participate.
>>
>>As one of those dedicated individuals, I ask you: what is your 
>>message to me? What are you trying to tell me?
>>
>>Give me a practical action item.
>>
>>And make sure it is NOT "make millions of people with hundreds of 
>>more important things in their lives devote 30 hours a week to 
>>ICANN" because that's not going to happen.
>>
>>--MM
>
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
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>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov 12 16:34:08 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:34:08 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
Message-ID: <9833874.1258061648352.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Milton and all,

  Well I am glad to say that at least we agree here.  Indeed
ICANN needs to take note as does especially the IPC. 

-----Original Message-----
>From: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu>
>Sent: Nov 12, 2009 10:49 AM
>To: "governance at lists.cpsr.org" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>Subject: RE: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
>
>Fouad:
>Of course Bill was joking. 
>IGP promises never to claim ownership of the term "internet governance" [or even "internets governance"] and looking at your site it is clear that there is no attempt to confuse people into thinking that your blog and ours are the same. This is a good example of how looking only at domain name string similarity does not provide an adequate assessment of confusing similarity in a legal/trademark sense. ICANN take note.
>
>--MM
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fouad Bajwa [mailto:fouadbajwa at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:11 AM
>> To: William Drake
>> Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Subject: Re: [governance] My blog on Internet's Governance
>> 
>> Haha, well said Bill, but I am on Internet's Governance and on a third
>> level domain whereas Milton is on the first level of everything :o)
>> It's a hosted blog, didn't have the resources to manage a complete
>> gTLD :o)
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:00 PM, William Drake
>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>> > Hmmm....
>> >
>> > http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> >
>> > http://internetgovernance.org
>> >
>> > Seems "confusingly similar."  Maybe a case for the UDRP?  :-)
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>> > On Nov 10, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Everyone,
>> >>
>> >> I wanted to share the link to my blog that specifically covers global
>> >> Internet governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> >>
>> >> The motivation comes after repeated requests from friends and
>> >> colleagues to consolidate my comments related to IGF and and now ICANN
>> >> as well as IG in general within a single space that is both accessible
>> >> to share comments.
>> >>
>> >> Therefore, I will be collecting all my thoughts and comments from
>> >> participation within the IGF and ICANN meetings on a regular basis and
>> >> feel free to comment and share your own ideas thereof. Do follow my
>> >> comments from the IGF meeting in Sharam El-Sheikh and my endeavours on
>> >> IG at ICANN.
>> >>
>> >> If you have any information or links that you may want to share
>> >> including links to your blogs, I would love to share them on my blog
>> >> and vice versa.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Regards.
>> >> --------------------------
>> >> Fouad Bajwa
>> >> Advisor & Researcher
>> >> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> >> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> >> Follow my Tweets:
>> >> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> >> MAG Interview:
>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> >> ____________________________________________________________
>> >> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> >>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> >> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>> >>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>> >>
>> >> For all list information and functions, see:
>> >>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>> >
>> > ***********************************************************
>> > William J. Drake
>> > Senior Associate
>> > Centre for International Governance
>> > Graduate Institute of International and
>> >  Development Studies
>> > Geneva, Switzerland
>> > william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
>> > www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
>> > ***********************************************************
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Fouad Bajwa
>> Advisor & Researcher
>> ICT4D & Internet Governance
>> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> Follow my Tweets:
>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> MAG Interview:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>> 
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov 12 16:38:48 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:38:48 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Fw: [Nom-comm-2010] NomCom event during IGF
Message-ID: <28604136.1258061928260.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Thu Nov 12 16:50:04 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:50:04 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: [ga] new gTLDs: ICANN seeks input and advice -
 REGISTRANTS
Message-ID: <29785114.1258062605103.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From katitza at datos-personales.org  Thu Nov 12 17:56:14 2009
From: katitza at datos-personales.org (Katitza Rodriguez Pereda)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:56:14 -0500
Subject: [governance] Fwd: EGYPT: IGF Workshop 257: The Privacy & Security
 Implications of Cloud Computing (Final Program)
References: <369264.97091.qm@web50610.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A65A4D79-7A71-49FE-A5CD-F1F357C63427@datos-personales.org>


> Subject: EGYPT: IGF Workshop 257: The Privacy & Security  
> Implications of Cloud Computing (Final Program)
>

> Dear all,
>
>
>
> The final program of our IGF Workshop 257: The Privacy & Security  
> Implications of Cloud Computing is now available at
>
> Ciberdelincuencia.Org: http://ciberdelincuencia.org/fuentes/seminarios.php
>
> and The Public Voice:  http://thepublicvoice.org/events/egypt09/
>
>
>
> The bio abstracts and pictures of the participants are available in  
> both hyperlinks in case you want to identify each other while in  
> Sharm-El Sheikh.
>
>
>
> As mentioned in my previous e-mail, and in addition to Katitza and  
> Mr. Seger’s questions, I will prepare some others in the area of sec 
> urity, privacy, cross-border data flows and law enforcement that wil 
> l complement, and hopefully enhance our multi-stakeholder dialogue i 
> n this panel. The main objective of our panel “is not only to highli 
> ght the challenges, explore the issues and inform the audience, but  
> also to look at possible solutions and good business practices”. I a 
> lso expect to hear from each of you, what your own organizations are 
>  doing in order to provide solutions on the intersection between pri 
> vacy and security to the cloud computing environment.
>
>
>
> Regarding the logistics of the panel, I will briefly introduce each  
> of you, and subsequently each speaker will have 8 minutes to present  
> their perspectives and issues regarding the work of your  
> organization in the field of cloud computing. Feel free to use any  
> format for your presentation during your time allotment.
>
> Subsequently, we will establish a dynamic debate based on the  
> questions prepared and the ones that the audience and the remote  
> hubs may have.
>
>
>
> The panel will be webcast in real time with the support of Pablo  
> Molina of Gerogetown University Law Centre. There will also be  
> volunteers providing updates in Twitter, Ning and Facebook and  
> blogging on relevant aspects of the workshop.
>
> There will be a final report shortly after the IGF meeting, which  
> will be available in both websites.
>
>
>
> I’d appreciate you can disseminate the information of our workshop i 
> n your websites, among members and colleagues of your organizations  
> and other people or professionals that may be interested in attendin 
> g or following it via webcast.
>
>
>
> I look forward to meeting all of you and to a productive and dynamic  
> dialogue in Sharm-El Sheikh, and please feel free to approach me  
> before Thursday.
>
>
>
> See you soon.
>
>
>
> P.D. Some helpful sources of reference, papers and recent  
> publications on cloud computing to enhance our dialogue are now  
> available at: http://thepublicvoice.org/events/egypt09/
>
>
>
>
>
> Cristos Velasco
>
> Director General
>
> North American Consumer Project on Electronic Commerce (NACPEC)
>
> http://www.nacpec.org
>
> http://www.ciberdelincuencia.org
>
> http://www.protecciondedatos.org.mx
>
>
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From hans.klein at pubpolicy.gatech.edu  Thu Nov 12 20:29:21 2009
From: hans.klein at pubpolicy.gatech.edu (Hans Klein)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:29:21 -0500
Subject: [governance] Seeking Room in the Grand Rotana (Nov. 14-17)
In-Reply-To: <A65A4D79-7A71-49FE-A5CD-F1F357C63427@datos-personales.org>
References: <369264.97091.qm@web50610.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
 <A65A4D79-7A71-49FE-A5CD-F1F357C63427@datos-personales.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20091112202621.067577c0@pubpolicy.gatech.edu>


Hi,

Among the various civil society groups staying at the Grand Rotana 
Hotel in Sharm:
Does anyone have a room reservation that they won't use?  I am at the 
hotel now, but I could only get a room to the 14th.

I seek a room from November 14-17.

Thanks

Hans

Hans Klein
IGP, and
Associate Professor of Public Policy
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta, GA 30332
Tel: 404-717-6406
hans at gatech.edu

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From ceo at bnnrc.net  Thu Nov 12 23:22:37 2009
From: ceo at bnnrc.net (AHM Bazlur Rahman)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:22:37 +0600
Subject: [governance] Bangladesh Consultation on Fourth Annual Meeting of
 the Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
Message-ID: <023401ca6419$07e3cc90$1300a8c0@ceo>


 Bangladesh Consultation on Fourth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF)

 

Bangladesh Consultation on Fourth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) held on 31st October at Bangladesh Computer Council, Dhaka.

Mr. Hasanul Haque Inu, MP, Chairman, Parliamentary Standing Committee, Ministry of Post and Telecommunications attended the workshop as the Chief Guest while Mr. Akram H Chowdhury, MP, Chairperson, Center for e-Parliament Studis attended as the moderator of consultation.

The consultation jointly organized by Computer Jagat, Bangladesh NGOs Network for Radio and Communication (BNNRC), Center for e-Parliament Studies and J.A.N Associates Ltd. This entire program was live casted through the website of Computer Jagat and facilitated online visitors to visit and post through online forum. 

Three papers were presented to discuss the global, regional and national issues pertaining to IGF, to initiate discussion among civil society, government, technologists, research scientists, industry, media and academia. Mr. Md. Saifuddin Khalid, Lecturer, Independent University, Bangladesh (IUB) presented focusing the global issue, Mr. Tarique M. Barkatullah, Senior Systems Analyst, Bangladesh Computer Council talked on national issues, and Mr. T. I. M. Nurul Kabir, CEO, Spinnovation Ltd. focused on the action plan for reaching national and international goals

In the open discussion session a significant number of action oriented suggestion were made to achieve national and IGF goals. The Bangladesh Working Group on IGF will be publishing report on the feedback from the Internet Stakeholders in Bangladesh.

Distinguished Member of Parliament (MP), Policy-Makers and Representatives from Government, Media, Academia, CSOs, and Corporate Sector participated in the Bangladesh Consultation. 

 


Bazlu

______________________
AHM. Bazlur Rahman-S21BR
Chief Executive Officer
Bangladesh NGOs Network for Radio and Communication(BNNRC)
&
Member, Strategy Council
UN-Global Alliance for ICT and Development (UN GAID)
 
House: 13/1, Road:2, Shaymoli, Dhaka-1207 
Post Box: 5095, Dhaka 1205 Bangladesh
 
Phone: 88-02-9130750, 88-02-9138501
01711881647 Fax: 88-02-9138501-105
 
E-mail: ceo at bnnrc.net, bnnrc at bd.drik.net
www.bnnrc.net


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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 01:56:42 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:56:42 +0300
Subject: [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
In-Reply-To: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
References: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911122256m29d7bb50k56452df6efad149b@mail.gmail.com>

Anriette,

I have added my comments in the space provided, please find the doc attached.

I am curious as to why the word "consensus" appears nowhere in this
document, as that is the traditional basis for deciding Internet
policies.  Instead of adding it throughout the document, I thought I
would ask first why it has been excluded.

I have to say, with the greatest respect for you and the very good
work of APC, that I find it highly ironic that 3 bodies whose work I
cannot participate in as an individual are trying to establish "Good
Practices" for IG that they themselves cannot meet.


-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel



On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:53 PM, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> wrote:
> PLEASE JOIN US FOR THE WORKSHOP ON A DRAFT CODE OF GOOD PRACTICE FOR
> INTERNET GOVERNANCE VERSION 1.0 (Workshop 96)
> Wednesday 18 November, 9.00–10.30 am, Room 3: Suez Canal
>
> This workshop is organised jointly by the United Nations Economic
> Commission for Europe (UNECE), the Council of Europe and the Association
> for Progressive Communications (APC), taking forward a trilateral
> initiative that has been developed since the first IGF in Athens.
>
> This workshop will be different from all the previous ones we
> convened...We have a draft code and we need your feedback!
>
> Visit http://intgovcode.org/index.php/Main_Page for background
> information and a copy of the draft code.
>
> This first draft of a Code of Good Practice on information,
> participation and transparency in Internet governance is based on the
> WSIS principles and on existing arrangements in Internet Governance
> institutions and uses the Aarhus Convention as a benchmark where
> appropriate. It is the result of consultations with IG stakeholders
> during the IGF process since 2006 and of a comparative assessment of
> existing information and participation arrangements in a number of
> selected Internet governance institutions that agreed to participate in
> this exercise.
>
> The aim of the workshop is to discuss the draft text with a view to an
> agreement on its format and its key elements from the perspective of
> both Internet governance entities and Internet users.
>
> The workshop will consist of different stakeholder groups discussing the
> draft code of practice from their respective perspectives. Breakout
> groups will be facilitated by representatives of the various stakeholder
> groups:
>
> * Internet technical community (including naming and numbering orgs) - Constance Bommelaer, ISOC (Europe),
> Paul Wilson, APCNIC (Asia Pacific)
> * Internet standards setting bodies (tbc)
> * Capacity building organisations - Ms Natasha Primo, APC (Africa)
> * Governments and Inter-governmental organisations- Mr Thomas Schneider,
> BAKOM, Switzerland (Europe)
> * Academic and research community – Jeanette Hoffman (Europe)
> * Civil Society in Internet Governance – Brendan Kuerbis, Internet
> Governance Project (USA)
>
> The initiative will be introduced by:
>
> Michael Remmert, Council of Europe
> Anriette Esterhuysen, APC, and,
> David Souter, ict Development Associates
>
> It will be facilitated by Karen Banks from the APC.
>
> Looking forward to hearing your views on the draft code!
>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> anriette esterhuysen - executive director
> association for progressive communications
> p o box 29755 melville - south africa 2109
> anriette at apc.org - tel/fax + 27 11 726 1692
> http://www.apc.org
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 02:28:22 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:28:22 +0300
Subject: [governance] IGF funding and expenditures report
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911122328g4d031012rce02799b2d4497c6@mail.gmail.com>

All,

As a matter of curiosity, I am looking for "Financial Report and
audited Financial Statements of the United Nations", which
http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/index.php/funding says is where the
"project expenditure" are located.

Google.for once isn't particularly helpful.  Has anyone come across
this doc that I am looking for?

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
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From anriette at apc.org  Fri Nov 13 04:22:59 2009
From: anriette at apc.org (Anriette Esterhuysen)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:22:59 +0200
Subject: [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911122256m29d7bb50k56452df6efad149b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <f65fb55e0911122256m29d7bb50k56452df6efad149b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1258104179.2917.554.camel@anriette-laptop>

Dear McTim

Thank you for your comments which add interesting questions that should
be considered during the stake-holder consultation on the code on the
17th.  I hope you can be there.

> I have added my comments in the space provided, please find the doc attached.
> 
> I am curious as to why the word "consensus" appears nowhere in this
> document, as that is the traditional basis for deciding Internet
> policies.  Instead of adding it throughout the document, I thought I
> would ask first why it has been excluded.

My immediate reaction is that the reason for this lies in the code not
intend to cover how decisions are made; but rather the processes
surrounding decision-making to ensure transparency, access to
information and participation.

But it is a really interesting question. I am eager to hear what others
involved think.

> I have to say, with the greatest respect for you and the very good
> work of APC, that I find it highly ironic that 3 bodies whose work I
> cannot participate in as an individual are trying to establish "Good
> Practices" for IG that they themselves cannot meet.

Have you not just done exactly that? Participated in our work? 

Seriously.. speaking for APC. We are a membership organisation.. quite
old (20 years) and quite old-fashioned in some ways in that members
decide what we should prioritise. APC's primary accountability is to its
members. At the same time we work in a very inclusive way and many
organisations and individuals outside of the APC member community
participate in our work. I actually recall another APC document or
statement a long time ago (related to access in Africa) that changed as
a result of comments you made.

Also keep in mind that we are not governance institutions. As for
transparency, and making access to information easy... we try hard to do
both well, but we know we can do better.

Best and see you soon.

Anriette



-- 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
anriette esterhuysen - executive director
association for progressive communications
p o box 29755 melville - south africa 2109
anriette at apc.org - tel/fax + 27 11 726 1692
http://www.apc.org

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From ceo at bnnrc.net  Fri Nov 13 07:24:31 2009
From: ceo at bnnrc.net (AHM Bazlur Rahman)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:24:31 +0600
Subject: [governance] Bangladesh Delegation@IGF 09 Sharm el Sheik
Message-ID: <012c01ca645c$571233e0$1300a8c0@ceo>




Dear all,
Greetings from Bangladesh NGOs Network for Radio and Communication(BNNRC).

I am pleased to inform you that  I will join the IGF along with head of the Bangladesh Delegation H.E. Mr. Hasanul haq Inu, MP and Chairman Parliamentary Standing Committee for Ministry of Post and Telecommunication and Deputy head of the delegation H.E.  Dr. Akram H. Chowdhury, MP Chairperson, Centre for e-parliament Studies and Mr. M.A Haque Anu, Secretary- Bangladesh Internet Governance Forum.

With best regards,



Bazlu
_______________________
AHM. Bazlur Rahman-S21BR
Chief Executive Officer
Bangladesh NGOs Network for Radio and Communication(BNNRC)
&
Member, Strategy Council
UN-Global Alliance for ICT and Development (UN GAID)
 
House: 13/1, Road:2, Shaymoli, Dhaka-1207 
Post Box: 5095, Dhaka 1205 Bangladesh
 
Phone: 88-02-9130750, 88-02-9138501
01711881647 Fax: 88-02-9138501-105
 
E-mail: ceo at bnnrc.net, bnnrc at bd.drik.net
www.bnnrc.net
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Fri Nov 13 07:12:22 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:12:22 +0300
Subject: [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
In-Reply-To: <1258104179.2917.554.camel@anriette-laptop>
References: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <f65fb55e0911122256m29d7bb50k56452df6efad149b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1258104179.2917.554.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911130412v2a8bc689q278b450256aa698f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> wrote:
> Dear McTim
>
>
> Have you not just done exactly that? Participated in our work?
>

It depends on what is in the final version.

> Seriously.. speaking for APC. We are a membership organisation.. quite
> old (20 years) and quite old-fashioned in some ways in that members
> decide what we should prioritise. APC's primary accountability is to its
> members. At the same time we work in a very inclusive way and many
> organisations and individuals outside of the APC member community
> participate in our work. I actually recall another APC document or
> statement a long time ago (related to access in Africa) that changed as
> a result of comments you made.
>
> Also keep in mind that we are not governance institutions.

True, in the strictest sense of the term, but UNECE and CoE are, no?
I think my point is still valid.  Folk who live in glass houses and
all that.

Unfortunately, parental responsibilities prevent me from going to
Egypt, but I will try some remote participation.

And yes, you can add it to the wiki (but I can't?)???


-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
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From anriette at apc.org  Fri Nov 13 07:27:11 2009
From: anriette at apc.org (Anriette Esterhuysen)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:27:11 +0200
Subject: [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911130412v2a8bc689q278b450256aa698f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <f65fb55e0911122256m29d7bb50k56452df6efad149b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1258104179.2917.554.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <f65fb55e0911130412v2a8bc689q278b450256aa698f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1258115231.3024.532.camel@anriette-laptop>

People can can add files or edit the Code of Practice wiki.. but you
have to create an account and then log in. 

I will discuss making it completely open with our partners, but there
are advantages in having people log in as it makes tracking who said
what easier and more transparent.

Anriette

On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 15:12 +0300, McTim wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> wrote:
> > Dear McTim
> >
> >
> > Have you not just done exactly that? Participated in our work?
> >
> 
> It depends on what is in the final version.
> 
> > Seriously.. speaking for APC. We are a membership organisation.. quite
> > old (20 years) and quite old-fashioned in some ways in that members
> > decide what we should prioritise. APC's primary accountability is to its
> > members. At the same time we work in a very inclusive way and many
> > organisations and individuals outside of the APC member community
> > participate in our work. I actually recall another APC document or
> > statement a long time ago (related to access in Africa) that changed as
> > a result of comments you made.
> >
> > Also keep in mind that we are not governance institutions.
> 
> True, in the strictest sense of the term, but UNECE and CoE are, no?
> I think my point is still valid.  Folk who live in glass houses and
> all that.
> 
> Unfortunately, parental responsibilities prevent me from going to
> Egypt, but I will try some remote participation.
> 
> And yes, you can add it to the wiki (but I can't?)???
> 
> 


-- 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
anriette esterhuysen - executive director
association for progressive communications
p o box 29755 melville - south africa 2109
anriette at apc.org - tel/fax + 27 11 726 1692
http://www.apc.org

____________________________________________________________
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From gabriela at itforchange.net  Fri Nov 13 07:43:49 2009
From: gabriela at itforchange.net (Gabriela)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:13:49 +0530
Subject: [governance] ITfC workshop at IGF on 'Multistakeholder
 Participation'
Message-ID: <4AFD5485.60303@itforchange.net>

Workshop - /*Multistakeholderism at the IGF: assessing impact on 
participation*/

This panel will assess whether and how IGF's unique multistakeholder 
model has actually impacted participation in global Internet Governance 
processes.


*Moderator:* Parminder Jeet Singh (IT for Change/India)

*Panelists:*

Felipe Santarosa (Government/Brazil);

George Papadatos (Government/Greece);

Karen Banks (APC/UK);

Jennifer Warren (Lockheed Martin Corporation/USA);

Murali Shanmugavelan (Panos London/UK)/*.*/


*When: *Nov 17 - 9:30 to 10:30 hrs

*Where:* IGF Meeting 2009 in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt (Room 7 - Luxor)

-- 
Gabriela Goulart Mora
Communication and Publications Officer
IT for Change
Tel: +91 80 26536890 or 26654134 ext. 54
Cel: +91 9980502849
Add: #393, 17th Main, 35th Cross
Jayanagar 4th T Block
Bangalore 560041 India
www.itforchange.net



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From gabriela at itforchange.net  Fri Nov 13 07:46:28 2009
From: gabriela at itforchange.net (Gabriela)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:16:28 +0530
Subject: [governance] ITfC workshop at IGF on 'Gender and Citizenship'
Message-ID: <4AFD5524.7050409@itforchange.net>

Workshop - /*The Internet and Citizenship: applying a gender lens*/

The session proposes an analysis of Internet and citizenship through a 
gender perspective. The theme brings inquiries in three dimensions: 1. 
within the Internet itself, considering the impact of the present 
paradigm and emerging trends on inclusion of women, particularly 
marginalised ones; 2. at a global citizenship scenario, understanding 
the trans-local nature of the Internet; and 3. within national contexts, 
examining how the Internet re-situates the citizen and redefines 
citizenship vis-a-vis the state and the market.


*Moderator:* Anita Gurumurthy (IT for Change/India)

*Panelists:*

Alice Munyua (GRACE Research Network and Communications Commission/Kenya);

Heike Jensen (Humboldt University in Berlin/Germany and OpenNet 
Initiative Asia);

Margarita Salas (Sulá Batsú Cooperative/Costa Rica);

Olga Cavalli (Government/Argentina)


*When: *Nov 18 -- 14:00 to 15:00 hrs

*Where: *IGF Meeting 2009 in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt (Room 9 - Siwa Meetings)

-- 
Gabriela Goulart Mora
Communication and Publications Officer
IT for Change
Tel: +91 80 26536890 or 26654134 ext. 54
Cel: +91 9980502849
Add: #393, 17th Main, 35th Cross
Jayanagar 4th T Block
Bangalore 560041 India
www.itforchange.net



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From karenb at gn.apc.org  Fri Nov 13 08:09:21 2009
From: karenb at gn.apc.org (karen banks)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:09:21 +0000
Subject: [governance] Invitation: Launch of GISW 2009 on online access to
 information and knowledge - Mon Nov 16 1830
Message-ID: <4AFD5A81.4070800@gn.apc.org>

Dear colleagues attending the IGF

APC would like to invite you to the launch of our latest edition of
Global Information Society Watch - this year focussing on access to
online information and knowledge.

The launch will take place at 6.30pm on Monday at the
Lobby next to the SIC Restaurant, Sharm El-Sheikh International Congress 
Centre.

Copies of the publication will be available at the launch, and light 
refreshments will be available.

We do hope some of you can come along and join us.

Regards

Karen Banks
APC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

INVITATION
LAUNCH OF GLOBAL INFORMATION SOCIETY WATCH 2009
Access to online information and knowledge
- advancing human rights and democracy

Monday November 16 6.30pm

Lobby next to the SIC Restaurant
Sharm El-Sheikh International Congress Centre
Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt

The Association for Progressive Communications (APC) and the Humanist
Institute for Cooperation with Developing Countries (Hivos) invite you
to the launch of the third edition of GISWatch.

The report unpacks the key issues impacting on access to online
information and knowledge, including discussions on intellectual
property rights, knowledge rights, open standards and access to
educational materials and libraries.

The report also offers an institutional overview and a reflection on
indicators that track access to information and knowledge.  48 country
reports –-ten more than last year-- analyse the status of access to
online information and knowledge in countries as diverse as the
Democratic Republic of Congo, Egypt, Mexico, Switzerland and Kazakhstan,
while regional overviews offer a bird’s eye perspective on trends in
North America, Latin America and the Caribbean, Africa, the Middle East,
South Asia and Europe.

For the first time there is an innovate section that visually maps
global rights as seen through the lens of Google searches, as well as a
visual analysis of Twitter messages sent out during the recent Iranian
political crisis.

Print copies will be distributed at the launch.

******

“GISWatch has taken up the difficult and incredibly important task of
understanding the converging issues of freedom of expression, access to
knowledge and information and digital rights in a global, comparative
context. Many of these issues have come to the fore in policy
conversations in the past decade, but researchers, advocates and
policy-makers have lacked a framework for mapping and comparing them
globally. Now they have one.” – Joe Karaganis, Social Science Research
Council

“I particularly liked the measuring section. The knowledge economy needs
indices that are both qualitative and quantitative. Keeping human rights
     and human development  central in the indicators gives ‘soul’ to the
measurement. This in my view is one of  most balanced access to
information publications in the post-WSIS period.” – Dr Buhle
Mbambo-Thata, Executive Director, University of South Africa (UNISA)
Library Services

******

Global Information Society Watch 2009
will be available online from November 16 at
www.GISWatch.org

END
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From hkawa at attglobal.net  Fri Nov 13 09:29:23 2009
From: hkawa at attglobal.net (Hiroshi Kawamura)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:29:23 +0900
Subject: [governance] Invitation: Launch of GISW 2009 on online access
 to information and knowledge - Mon Nov 16 1830
In-Reply-To: <4AFD5A81.4070800@gn.apc.org>
References: <4AFD5A81.4070800@gn.apc.org>
Message-ID: <00f601ca646d$b50de500$1f29af00$@net>

Dear Karen:

Thank you very much for your invitation.
Dipendra Manocha, DAISY Consortium Indian Office, is representing the DAISY
Consortium at IGF in Egypt.
I forward your invitation to Dipendra.

Best

Hiroshi 

-----Original Message-----
From: karen banks [mailto:karenb at gn.apc.org] 
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:09 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: [governance] Invitation: Launch of GISW 2009 on online access to
information and knowledge - Mon Nov 16 1830

Dear colleagues attending the IGF

APC would like to invite you to the launch of our latest edition of Global
Information Society Watch - this year focussing on access to online
information and knowledge.

The launch will take place at 6.30pm on Monday at the Lobby next to the SIC
Restaurant, Sharm El-Sheikh International Congress Centre.

Copies of the publication will be available at the launch, and light
refreshments will be available.

We do hope some of you can come along and join us.

Regards

Karen Banks
APC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

INVITATION
LAUNCH OF GLOBAL INFORMATION SOCIETY WATCH 2009 Access to online information
and knowledge
- advancing human rights and democracy

Monday November 16 6.30pm

Lobby next to the SIC Restaurant
Sharm El-Sheikh International Congress Centre Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt

The Association for Progressive Communications (APC) and the Humanist
Institute for Cooperation with Developing Countries (Hivos) invite you to
the launch of the third edition of GISWatch.

The report unpacks the key issues impacting on access to online information
and knowledge, including discussions on intellectual property rights,
knowledge rights, open standards and access to educational materials and
libraries.

The report also offers an institutional overview and a reflection on
indicators that track access to information and knowledge.  48 country
reports --ten more than last year-- analyse the status of access to online
information and knowledge in countries as diverse as the Democratic Republic
of Congo, Egypt, Mexico, Switzerland and Kazakhstan, while regional
overviews offer a bird's eye perspective on trends in North America, Latin
America and the Caribbean, Africa, the Middle East, South Asia and Europe.

For the first time there is an innovate section that visually maps global
rights as seen through the lens of Google searches, as well as a visual
analysis of Twitter messages sent out during the recent Iranian political
crisis.

Print copies will be distributed at the launch.

******

"GISWatch has taken up the difficult and incredibly important task of
understanding the converging issues of freedom of expression, access to
knowledge and information and digital rights in a global, comparative
context. Many of these issues have come to the fore in policy conversations
in the past decade, but researchers, advocates and policy-makers have lacked
a framework for mapping and comparing them globally. Now they have one." -
Joe Karaganis, Social Science Research Council

"I particularly liked the measuring section. The knowledge economy needs
indices that are both qualitative and quantitative. Keeping human rights
     and human development  central in the indicators gives 'soul' to the
measurement. This in my view is one of  most balanced access to information
publications in the post-WSIS period." - Dr Buhle Mbambo-Thata, Executive
Director, University of South Africa (UNISA) Library Services

******

Global Information Society Watch 2009
will be available online from November 16 at www.GISWatch.org

END
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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____________________________________________________________
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From valeriab at apc.org  Fri Nov 13 09:47:03 2009
From: valeriab at apc.org (Valeria Betancourt)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:47:03 -0500
Subject: [governance] Briefing from APC on Internet governance forum
In-Reply-To: <4AFD6DE4.4010101@apc.org>
References: <4AFD6DE4.4010101@apc.org>
Message-ID: <ddcb05dc0911130647s547f9ae1jfc19cfbd4f17129a@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

We would like to share with you all the APC IGF brief. Please see below a
message from APC´s communication manager.

Best,

Valeria

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Karen Higgs <khiggs at apc.org>
Date: 2009/11/13
Subject: [APC Forum] Briefing from APC on Internet governance forum
To: "A general information sharing space for the APC Community." <
apc.forum at lists.apc.org>


Dear friends

Next week APC staff and members will be in Sharm El-Sheikh, in the fourth
meeting of the Internet Governance Forum.

The Internet Governance Forum is the only space of its kind in the world –
it acts as a “pressure relief valve” for some of the most important and
controversial issues related to the global internet. The IGF is in its
fourth year of existence and next year could be its last.

We'll be running two workshops and launching two publications.

Here's a brief of the main issues at stake (produced by our dear Willie
Currie, Valeria Betancourt and the comms team) and our activities attached
or online
http://www.apc.org/en/news/brief-apc-fourth-internet-governance-forum

APC's newsletters, APCNews/Noticias/Nouvelles will be going out on Monday.
If you're not subscribed please visit the APC website www.apc.org and fill
in the subscription box at the top right hand side of the page.

There will be some on-site coverage for those of you following the IGF
remotely. Some members will be writing and have chosen Facebook and Twitter
as their preferred media, so:

Follow on Facebook (these pages were just set up last week - join us :)
http://www.facebook.com/pages/APCNews/192785954922
http://www.facebook.com/pages/APCNoticias/124933902730
http://www.facebook.com/pages/APCNouvelles/171376632139

And Twitter
#genderigf2009
#igf2009
#apc

Best
Kah




-- 
Valeria Betancourt
Coordinadora / Coordinator
Programa de Políticas de TIC en América Latina / Latin American ICT Policy
Programme
http://www.apc.org/es/about/programmes/programa-de-politicas-de-informacion-y-comunicacio
http://lac.derechos.apc.org
Asociación para el Progreso de las Comunicaciones / Association for
Progressive Communications, APC
http://www.apc.org
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From eddank at aya.yale.edu  Fri Nov 13 17:08:00 2009
From: eddank at aya.yale.edu (Eddan Katz)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:08:00 -0800
Subject: [governance] Copyright Watch launch
References: <F1912244-7930-485D-BC18-7F0AC10DAEA3@aya.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <1B9CBF91-0BA9-4CAB-956C-92DE00269A84@aya.yale.edu>

Copyright Watch: http://www.copyright-watch.org/

Electronic Frontier Foundation Media Release

For Immediate Release: Friday, November 13, 2009

International Activists Launch New Website to Gather and
Share Copyright Knowledge

Anyone Can Track National Copyright Laws Globally with

San Francisco - The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF),
Electronic Information for Libraries (eIFL.net), and other
international copyright experts joined together today to
launch Copyright Watch -- a public website created to
centralize resources on national copyright laws at
www.copyright-watch.org.

"Copyright laws are changing across the world, and it's
hard to keep track of these changes, even for those whose
daily work is affected by them," said Teresa Hackett,
Program Manager at eIFL.net.  "A law that is passed in one
nation can quickly be taken up by others, bilateral trade
agreements, regional policy initiatives, or international
treaties.  With Copyright Watch, people can learn about the
similarities and differences in national copyright laws,
and they can use that information to more easily spot
patterns and emerging trends."

Copyright Watch is the first comprehensive and up-to-date
online repository of national copyright laws.  To find
links to national and regional copyright laws, users can
choose a continent or search using a country name.  The
site will be updated over time to include proposed
amendments to laws, as well as commentary and context from
national copyright experts.  Copyright Watch will help
document how legislators around the world are coping with
the challenges of new technology and new business models.

"Balanced and well-calibrated copyright laws are extremely
important in our global information society," said Gwen
Hinze, International Policy Director at EFF.  "Small shifts
in the balance between the rights of copyright owners and
the limitations and exceptions relied on by those who use
copyrighted content can destroy or enable business models,
criminalize or liberate free expression and everyday
behavior, and support the development of new technologies
that facilitate access to knowledge for all the world's
citizens.  We hope that Copyright Watch will encourage
comparative research and help to highlight more and less
flexible copyright regimes."

"Details of copyright law used to be important only for a
few people in creative industries," added Danny O'Brien,
International Outreach Coordinator at EFF.  "But now, with
the growth of the Internet and other digital tools, we are
all authors, publishers, and sharers of copyrighted works.
Copyright Watch was created so citizens of the world can
share and compare information about their countries' laws."

Funding to create Copyright Watch was generously provided
by the Open Society Institute.

Copyright Watch:
http://www.copyright-watch.org

For this release:
http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/11/13

Contact:

Gwen Hinze
International Policy Director
Electronic Frontier Foundation
gwen at eff.org
+1 415 436-9333 x110 (office)

Danny O'Brien
International Outreach Coordinator
Electronic Frontier Foundation
danny at eff.org
+1 415 436-9333 x121

About EFF

The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading civil
liberties organization working to protect rights in the
digital world. Founded in 1990, EFF actively encourages and
challenges industry and government to support free
expression and privacy online. EFF is a member-supported
organization and maintains one of the most linked-to
websites in the world at http://www.eff.org/






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From presidencia at internauta.org.ar  Fri Nov 13 17:17:54 2009
From: presidencia at internauta.org.ar (Presidencia Internauta)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:17:54 -0300
Subject: [governance] Briefing from APC on Internet governance forum
References: <4AFD6DE4.4010101@apc.org> <ddcb05dc0911130647s547f9ae1jfc19cfbd4f17129a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A2C44E4585B8434BA6CF6A5ABF76CA93@Sergio>

Valeria tendrás esto en español para poder distribuirlo en las distintas delegaciones de nuestra organización? Gracias de antemano!
saludos cordiales
sergio salinas porto
Internauta 
Asociación Argentina de usuarios de Internet
http://www.internauta.org.ar
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Valeria Betancourt 
  To: governance at lists.cpsr.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:47 AM
  Subject: [governance] Briefing from APC on Internet governance forum


  Hello everyone, 

  We would like to share with you all the APC IGF brief. Please see below a message from APC´s communication manager.

  Best, 

  Valeria 


  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
  From: Karen Higgs <khiggs at apc.org>
  Date: 2009/11/13
  Subject: [APC Forum] Briefing from APC on Internet governance forum
  To: "A general information sharing space for the APC Community." <apc.forum at lists.apc.org>


  Dear friends

  Next week APC staff and members will be in Sharm El-Sheikh, in the fourth meeting of the Internet Governance Forum.

  The Internet Governance Forum is the only space of its kind in the world – it acts as a “pressure relief valve” for some of the most important and controversial issues related to the global internet. The IGF is in its fourth year of existence and next year could be its last.

  We'll be running two workshops and launching two publications.

  Here's a brief of the main issues at stake (produced by our dear Willie Currie, Valeria Betancourt and the comms team) and our activities attached or online http://www.apc.org/en/news/brief-apc-fourth-internet-governance-forum

  APC's newsletters, APCNews/Noticias/Nouvelles will be going out on Monday. If you're not subscribed please visit the APC website www.apc.org and fill in the subscription box at the top right hand side of the page.

  There will be some on-site coverage for those of you following the IGF remotely. Some members will be writing and have chosen Facebook and Twitter as their preferred media, so:

  Follow on Facebook (these pages were just set up last week - join us :)
  http://www.facebook.com/pages/APCNews/192785954922
  http://www.facebook.com/pages/APCNoticias/124933902730
  http://www.facebook.com/pages/APCNouvelles/171376632139

  And Twitter
  #genderigf2009
  #igf2009
  #apc

  Best
  Kah





  -- 
  Valeria Betancourt
  Coordinadora / Coordinator
  Programa de Políticas de TIC en América Latina / Latin American ICT Policy Programme
  http://www.apc.org/es/about/programmes/programa-de-politicas-de-informacion-y-comunicacio
  http://lac.derechos.apc.org
  Asociación para el Progreso de las Comunicaciones / Association for
  Progressive Communications, APC
  http://www.apc.org



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 13 18:17:56 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:17:56 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: [A2k] Michael Geist:  the ACTA threat (audio file)
Message-ID: <26877464.1258154276883.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Manon and all,

  Well this is certainly disturbing, but thank you.  I hope
others will pay particular attention as if this treaty is 
eventually ratified broadly the fabric of IP law and the
Internet will change dramatically.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Manon Ress <manon.ress at keionline.org>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2009 1:05 PM
>To: a2k discuss list <a2k at lists.essential.org>
>Subject: [A2k] Michael Geist:  the ACTA threat (audio file)
>
>Everything you need to know about ACTA...the secret treaty, from the
>chronology to the impact.
>
>http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/12/everything-you-want.html
>
>
>***************************************************************************
>Manon Ress
>manon.ress at keionline.org
>Knowledge Ecology International
>1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Washington, DC 20009 USA
>Tel.:  +1.202.332.2670, Fax: +1.202.332.2673
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>A2k mailing list
>A2k at lists.essential.org
>http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/a2k
Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 13 18:21:01 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:21:01 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Re: [A2k] Event at AU and webcast: Patentable Subject
 Matter After the Bilski Oral Argument
Message-ID: <11221124.1258154461659.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Mike and all,

  Thank you for this update.  We are watching this case very
closely as it may indeed have global ramifications in the near
future. 

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Palmedo <mpalmedo at wcl.american.edu>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2009 11:08 AM
>To: iplusa at lists.keionline.org, ip-health at lists.essential.org, a2k at lists.essential.org
>Subject: [A2k] Event at AU and webcast: Patentable Subject Matter After the Bilski Oral Argument
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--
>[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
>EVENT WEBSITE: http://www.wcl.american.edu/pijip/go/bilski-nov2009
>
>
>
>Patentable Subject Matter After the Bilski Oral Argument
>
>
>
>A Telecast by the Program on Information Justice and Intellectual Property
>(PIJIP), Washington College of Law, American University and the Federal
>Circuit Bar Association (FCBA)
>
>
>
>November 19, 2009, 4:30-6:30 pm
>
>Washington College of Law, Room 603
>
>
>
>In Bilski v. Kappos, the U.S. Supreme Court will address limitations on
>patentable subject matter in the context of a business method invention,
>analyzing a body of case law in such a way that some say could wrongly call
>into question the validity of many other patents and types of claims, while
>others argue it is not restrictive enough. The oral argument - and the
>subsequent decision - will be studied by a broad range of members of the
>patent community who are seeking to determine its effects on innovation,
>prosecution, licensing, and litigation. PIJIP and the FCBA will host a panel
>of experts to discuss the case shortly after the Court hears the oral
>argument.
>
>
>
>The panelists for this program include: Raymond T. Chen, Solicitor, U.S.
>Patent and Trademark Office, Counsel for Respondent, J. Michael Jakes,
>Finnegan Henderson, Counsel of Record for Petitioners, Nancy Linck,
>Rothwell, Figg, Counsel for Amicus Curiae BIO, and Randolph Moss,
>WilmerHale, Counsel for Amici Curiae Bank of America et al. A period for
>questions will follow. Thomas C. Goldstein, Akin, Gump, Counsel for Amicus
>Curiae American Bar Association and Professor Joshua Sarnoff, Washington
>College of Law, American University, Counsel for Amici Eleven Law Professors
>and the AARP will moderate.
>
>
>
>In addition to on-site attendance, the FCBA will also broadcast the program
>live via the web on November 19, 2009 as a part of its regular Horizons
>series.
>
>
>
>Price for Webcast:
>
>
>
>Private Practitioner - $105 Nonmember / $65 Member (giffuepehf)
>
>Government/Academic/Retired - $35 Nonmember (feferevrul) / $15 Member
>(giffotokot)
>
>
>
>To register for this Program, please follow these instructions:
>
>
>
>1. Those wishing to participate via the Internet, please visit our website:
>https://fedcirbar.webex.com and use registration password "FCBAbilski09".
>Please enter coupon code that applies (listed next to each category above)
>upon checkout to receive discounted price.
>
>
>
>2. Those wishing to participate On-Site, with or without CLE credit, please
>visit wcl.american.edu/secle/registration. Information about the program is
>also available at wcl.american.edu/secle/founders/2009/events.cfm.
>
>
>
>3. For special "group" pricing and university law schools interested in FREE
>internet participation, contact Elisabeth Reed, reed at fedcirbar.org.
>
>
>
>FCBA will seek CLE credit from applicable states for those registrants from
>within the United States (except OH, PA, IN, SC, & PR).
>
>
>
>Mike Palmedo
>
>Assistant Director
>
>Program on Information Justice and Intellectual Property
>
>American University Washington College of Law
>
>4801 Massachusetts Ave., NW
>
>Washington, DC 20016
>
>202-274-4442 | wcl.american.edu/pijip
>
>
>
>--
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>A2k mailing list
>A2k at lists.essential.org
>http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/a2k

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Fri Nov 13 18:37:11 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:37:11 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] ICANN's IPC member the MPAA, Shuts Down Town's
 Municipal WiFi Over 1 Download
Message-ID: <1150580.1258155432127.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  Any reasonable person and/or Internt users has to ask:
What the devil is up with this nonsense?!  Is this a preview
of comming attractions or rather abuses by the MPAA?  Doesn't
ICANN or the IPC have some control or influence with this
IPC member and exercise same to behave in a rational manner?
Apperently not.

See:http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=09/11/12/2025201

"The MPAA has successfully http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/12/mpaa-shuts-down-enti.html
shut down an entire town's municipal WiFi because a single user was
found to be downloading a copyrighted movie. Rather than being
embarrassed by this gross example of collective punishment (a practice
outlawed in the Geneva conventions) against Coshocton, OH, the MPAA's
spokeslizard took the opportunity to cry poor (even though the studios
are bringing in record box-office and aftermarket receipts)."


Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827


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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 00:07:30 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:07:30 +0300
Subject: [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
In-Reply-To: <1258115231.3024.532.camel@anriette-laptop>
References: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <f65fb55e0911122256m29d7bb50k56452df6efad149b@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1258104179.2917.554.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <f65fb55e0911130412v2a8bc689q278b450256aa698f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <1258115231.3024.532.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911132107x48d7eb1aq73b5e996937d977c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> wrote:
> People can can add files or edit the Code of Practice wiki.. but you
> have to create an account and then log in.

I have an account now, but seemingly can't edit the document directly.
 Is this intended to be the case?  If so, why make a Wiki if the doc
is not editable via the Wiki?

Another question springs to mind, are you going to evaluate the IGF by
the criteria in the draft Code?  This might be a useful input to the
overall IGF evaluation.

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
____________________________________________________________
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From parminder at itforchange.net  Fri Nov 13 14:38:25 2009
From: parminder at itforchange.net (Parminder)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:08:25 +0530
Subject: [governance] UN SG's report on enhanced cooperation
Message-ID: <4AFDB5B1.3080100@itforchange.net>

Pl find enclosed the UN SG's report on Enhanced Cooperation. Nothing new 
here, but thought may be of interest to some. Parminder
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 02:55:40 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:55:40 +0300
Subject: [governance] UN SG's report on enhanced cooperation
In-Reply-To: <4AFDB5B1.3080100@itforchange.net>
References: <4AFDB5B1.3080100@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911132355o1c62f004rccff2bcbb72d51ef@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> Pl find enclosed the UN SG's report on Enhanced Cooperation. Nothing new
> here,


Nothing new?  Read the ITU section again, it's a bald power play (not
that that is new), but this is the first I have heard of, inter alia,:

• An improved governance framework could be formed, in which all
countries would have an equal say in Internet-related public policy
issues and in the management of critical Internet resources.

• An intergovernmental organization such as ITU has the necessary
mandate and hence could play a leading role in the creation of this
governance structure.

• The role and functions related to policies governing the
harmonized and global coordination of services for country-code
top-level domains (ccTLDs) should be assumed by a relevant
intergovernmental body with a mandate from Governments and experience
in providing such services so that concerns and interests of sovereign
States can be taken into account.


-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
____________________________________________________________
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Sat Nov 14 03:05:07 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:05:07 +1100
Subject: [governance] UN SG's report on enhanced cooperation
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911132355o1c62f004rccff2bcbb72d51ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C724AFE3.7EFF%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Note the report is summarising ITU's submission (along with others), not
endorsing it.


On 14/11/09 6:55 PM, "McTim" <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
>> Pl find enclosed the UN SG's report on Enhanced Cooperation. Nothing new
>> here,
> 
> 
> Nothing new?  Read the ITU section again, it's a bald power play (not
> that that is new), but this is the first I have heard of, inter alia,:
> 
> € An improved governance framework could be formed, in which all
> countries would have an equal say in Internet-related public policy
> issues and in the management of critical Internet resources.
> 
> € An intergovernmental organization such as ITU has the necessary
> mandate and hence could play a leading role in the creation of this
> governance structure.
> 
> € The role and functions related to policies governing the
> harmonized and global coordination of services for country-code
> top-level domains (ccTLDs) should be assumed by a relevant
> intergovernmental body with a mandate from Governments and experience
> in providing such services so that concerns and interests of sovereign
> States can be taken into account.
> 


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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 04:30:09 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:30:09 +0500
Subject: [governance] UN SG's report on enhanced cooperation
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911132355o1c62f004rccff2bcbb72d51ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AFDB5B1.3080100@itforchange.net>
	 <f65fb55e0911132355o1c62f004rccff2bcbb72d51ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911140130r69f82be0k17ea4e27031ecb60@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm, I see ITU's submission on their own part but not as part of the
report's overall objective. ITU and UNESCO have their own views but
bringing the issue of IG just under one existing governance
organizational structure limits it. For example, ITU never talks about
rights of Human's on the Internet..........it may be more interesting
in building the invincible hand behind cyber security law enforcement
standards and practice but not seeing the social aspects of the
Internet.

In my opinion, the IG aspect with respect to having the IGF continued
is still the best way to go!

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM, McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
>> Pl find enclosed the UN SG's report on Enhanced Cooperation. Nothing new
>> here,
>
>
> Nothing new?  Read the ITU section again, it's a bald power play (not
> that that is new), but this is the first I have heard of, inter alia,:
>
> • An improved governance framework could be formed, in which all
> countries would have an equal say in Internet-related public policy
> issues and in the management of critical Internet resources.
>
> • An intergovernmental organization such as ITU has the necessary
> mandate and hence could play a leading role in the creation of this
> governance structure.
>
> • The role and functions related to policies governing the
> harmonized and global coordination of services for country-code
> top-level domains (ccTLDs) should be assumed by a relevant
> intergovernmental body with a mandate from Governments and experience
> in providing such services so that concerns and interests of sovereign
> States can be taken into account.
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From katitza at datos-personales.org  Sat Nov 14 06:54:41 2009
From: katitza at datos-personales.org (Katitza Rodriguez)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:54:41 +0200
Subject: [governance] TAKE ACTION: Support the Madrid Privacy Declaration
References: <E19489A6-2A2A-4193-8FEA-E5495BD8B62A@datos-personales.org>
Message-ID: <8544BF91-0D3F-44AD-A5E9-59EAA5D1D829@datos-personales.org>


Dear colleagues:

PLEASE TAKE ACTION: Support the Madrid Privacy Declaration
----------------------------------------------------------------

Civil society groups and privacy experts are urging countries around
the world to safeguard privacy, a fundamental human right.

Governments and corporations are gathering too much information on
individuals, with too few protections. New systems of identification,
tracking and surveillance threaten the rights of citizens and consumers.

At the recent meeting of privacy officials in Madrid, a  declaration
was issued that reaffirmed basic privacy laws, identified new
challenges, and recommended concrete actions. The Madrid Privacy
Declaration is an important document that  makes affirmative
recommendations.

Now the Madrid Privacy Declaration is open for signature to
individuals around the world. And we need your support!
Go to this page for information about how to endorse:

http://www.thepublicvoice.org/madrid-declaration/

To learn more about privacy and the recent civil society  conference
in Madrid:

http://www.thepublicvoice.org/events/madrid09/

Please send your endorsement to privacy at datos-personales.org






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From tracyhackshaw at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 07:53:04 2009
From: tracyhackshaw at gmail.com (Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:53:04 -0400
Subject: [governance] IGF in remote? What are the IGC plans?
In-Reply-To: <4AD8DC0E.1080709@gmail.com>
References: <4AD8DC0E.1080709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <808a83f60911140453s696c3030t548d3a3af264b24f@mail.gmail.com>

Wasn't sure if this link was posted here ... not remote particpation per se,
but live IGF webcasts (already active)

http://www.un.org/webcast/igf/

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi everyone...
>
> Should we be thinking about an IGC strategy for the upcoming IGF in Egypt?
> Are there specific issues we want to be involved in, intervene in, report
> back on?
>
> What concerns and suggestions do you have?
>
> I will be unable to attend the IGF in person this year, but I plan to be
> active through Remote Participation, and if my local connection is good
> enough, I will do a presentation or two through RP as well.
>
> I would like to encourage others to attend remotely--we can tweet, chat,
> Skype--we can be involved! We can intervene in sessions, and we can ask
> those who are present to include us in their Skype conversations.
>
> Will we work as a group, or is it preferable to act as individuals? We have
> a booth in the IGF Village Square that can be used for physical meetings and
> communications too.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Best, Ginger
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>
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From tracyhackshaw at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 08:40:34 2009
From: tracyhackshaw at gmail.com (Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:40:34 -0400
Subject: [governance] Almost real-time IGF video interviews & comments from
 the IGF Channel
Message-ID: <808a83f60911140540m59f44325q5ec0aff440aff232@mail.gmail.com>

Internet Governance Forum Channel
http://www.youtube.com/igf
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Sat Nov 14 09:22:58 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:22:58 +1100
Subject: [governance] Reminder re our meeting tonight
Message-ID: <C7250872.7F1C%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Just to remind everyone that our meeting is scheduled for tonight, November
14, from 7pm to 8pm at the conference venue. The room is the Nile Valley
room, which will have been used for Giganet earlier in the day.

Please make every effort to be on time, particularly if coming from other
venues and meetings, as we will not be able to run overtime with this
meeting and many people will be keen to get the days meetings out of the way
and relax. So I hope we can start promptly at 7pm and, if anything, finish
early.

If you are coming from ISOC meet, allow 10 minutes (its just next door but
takes a bit of finding)


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From lisa at global-partners.co.uk  Sat Nov 14 09:46:51 2009
From: lisa at global-partners.co.uk (Lisa Horner)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:46:51 -0000
Subject: [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and principles: Practical
 Steps.  TOMORROW
References: <F1912244-7930-485D-BC18-7F0AC10DAEA3@aya.yale.edu> <1B9CBF91-0BA9-4CAB-956C-92DE00269A84@aya.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F8A@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>

Dear all 
 
I just wanted to draw your attention to our workshop tomorrow (Sunday) at 9.30 am.  All are welcome, in person and remotely via channel 6 here: http://www.un.org/webcast/igf/
 
Thanks,
Lisa
 

Human Rights and Principles in Internet Governance: Practical Steps

 

Workshop 314

2009 Internet Governance Forum, Sharm El Sheikh

Sunday 15th November, 09.30, Room 5.

 

The ongoing evolution of the internet and associated networked communications has profound implications for human rights.  New opportunities for fully realising our fundamental rights and freedoms have been unleashed by the development of new communication tools, platforms and practices.  However, new challenges have also arisen, for example with the emergence of new forms of surveillance and censorship.  There is an urgent need to develop strategies for protecting human rights in the internet age, whilst at the same time ensuring that internet governance fosters the continued development of an internet that supports their further realisation and expansion.  

 

This workshop will examine practical strategies for incorporating human rights standards into internet governance processes and policies.  Discussants will share their experiences of working on a wide range of initiatives that are helping to protect and expand human rights online, drawing out lessons learnt and emerging best practice.  The focus will be on challenges and opportunities for multi-stakeholder cooperation to create enabling environments and tools for the protection and promotion of human rights in the internet age.

 

All stakeholders are invited to contribute to what promises to be an engaging and lively discussion.  The workshop has been organised by Lisa Horner, Head of Research and Policy at Global Partners and Associates in the UK.  For more information, please email lisa at global-partners.co.uk.

 

Initiatives that will be explored during the workshop include:

 

The Global Network Initiative (GNI)

 

Discussants:

Rebecca MacKinnon, Global Voices/University of Hong Kong

Ebele Okobi-Harris, Yahoo! inc.

 

Launched in 2008, the GNI is a multi-stakeholder project that provides guidance to the ICT industry and its stakeholders on how to protect and advance freedom of expression and privacy.   The Initiative seeks to promote the rule of law and the adoption of laws, policies and practices that protect and respect freedom of expression and privacy through collaboration among companies, NGOs, investors and academics.  The Initiative has developed shared standards and guidelines which provide a systemic approach for companies facing government requests to protect the rights to freedom of expression and privacy of their users while respecting legitimate government authority. Over time, the aim is for the Principles and Implementation Guidelines to take root as a global standard for the ICT sector and to be adopted by companies worldwide, employed by diverse stakeholders for advancing human rights, and recognized by governments and international bodies.  

 

Participating companies commit to a number of measures upon joining the Initiative, including conducting human rights assessments and establishing internal teams to lead on implementing the Principles.  Civil society organisations, investors and academic participants also make a number of commitments, including the provision of expert advice and collaborative problem solving, and engagement with governments to promote the rule of law and policies that respect human rights.  Ebele Okobi-Harris and Rebecca Mackinnon will discuss the development and implementation of the initiative, focusing on the experiences and lessons learnt by members from different stakeholder groups.

 

Human Rights Guidelines for Internet Service Providers 

 

Discussants:  

Michael Truppe, Council of Europe Expert

Malcolm Hutty, EuroISPA/London Internet Exchange

 

In October 2008 the Council of Europe launched Human Rights Guidelines for Internet Service Providers, providing ISPs with practical advice on steps that they should take to uphold and advance human rights.  The guidelines were developed in cooperation with the European Association of Internet Service Providers (EuroISPA).  Michael Truppe and Malcolm Hutty will draw out lessons learnt from the process of drafting the guidelines, and will discuss challenges and opportunities for their application and implementation.  

 

Kenya  ICT Network 

 

Discussant: Alice Munyua, KICTANet

 

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) was created in October 2004 by a group of organisations from the private and civil society sectors.  The aim of the network was to foster collaboration between stakeholders with different expertise and view points around the commonly shared concern of the need for an ICT policy in Kenya.  The network created an enabling environment for dialogue on ICT policy issues, and succeeded in accelerating the ICT policy and regulatory process.  The outcome was the inclusive and participatory drafting of Kenya's ICT Policy, and its adoption in March 2006.  Alice Munyua will discuss the challenges and opportunities that Kictanet faced, drawing out examples of best practice for collaborative policy initiatives elsewhere.

 

Code of Good Practice on information, participation and transparency in Internet Governance

 

Discussant: Michael Remmert, Council of Europe

 

The Council of Europe, UNECE and APC have drafted "A Code of Good Practice on information, participation and transparency in Internet Governance".   The draft is based on the WSIS principles and on existing arrangements in Internet Governance institutions and uses the Aarhus Convention as a benchmark where appropriate. It is the result of consultations with internet governance stakeholders during the IGF process since 2006 and of a comparative assessment of existing information and participation arrangements in a number of internet governance institutions Michael Remmert, Head of the Council of Europe's Project "Good Governance in the Information Society", will discuss the background to the initiative and plans for its implementation.  He will also consider the role that he envisages it playing in helping to foster internet governance that embodies and supports human rights.

 

 

 

 

Civil Society Information Society Advisory Council to the OECD

 

Discussant: Katitza Rodriguez, EPIC

 

In 2008, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) formalised the participation of civil society in the work of their Committee for Information Computer and Communications Policy (ICCP) through the Civil Society Information Society Advisory Council (CSISAC).  The main purpose of the CSISAC is to contribute constructively to the policy work of the OECD-ICCP and to promote the exchange of information between the OECD civil society participants.  Katitza Rodriguez, from the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), is the CSISAC Liaison at the OECD ICCP Committee.  She will discuss the background to CSISAC, examining whether any lessons can be learnt from the process so far that could help to enhance multi-stakeholder cooperation in other international fora.

 

Charter of Human Rights and Principles on the Internet 

 

Discussant: Natasha Primo, APC

 

In 2001-2002, members and partner organisations of the Association for Progressive Communications (APC) developed the APC Internet Rights Charter at "internet rights" workshops held in Europe, Asia, Latin America and Africa in 2001-2002.  The charter underwent revision in 2006, and is currently being redrafted collaboratively in cooperation with the Dynamic Coalition on Internet Rights and Principles as the Charter of Human Rights and Principles on the Internet.  The aim of the charter is to interpret what the standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights mean in the context of the internet, and to develop principles to foster the development of an internet that can support human rights.  Natasha Primo from APC will discuss how the charter has been used as a tool for civil society advocacy, and will examine the impact that it has had in practical terms.  She will also consider prospects for using the new revised charter as a platform for multi-stakeholder cooperation on human rights issues.

 

 

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From maxsenges at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 10:49:40 2009
From: maxsenges at gmail.com (Max Senges)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:49:40 +0200
Subject: [governance] Discussion of Charter of Human Rights and Principles
 on the Internet
Message-ID: <4d976d8e0911140749m7e34d194o8916ebdf931a1278@mail.gmail.com>

Dear IGClers

Many of you have already contributed to the collabowriting of the Charter of
Human Rights and Principles, and I want to thank you at this point!

We now have the chance to use the IGF to make use and discuss the work done
so far.

Please use the workshops to point to the respective relevant thematic
sections (Freedom of Expression, Net Neutrality, Privacy, etc.)

Section I - Human Rights on the Internet
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AeybA8_Lt-gwYWpjczg2cDlkeDJzXzMxYzQ5cXF3Yzc&hl

Section II - Policy Implementation Principles (based on Human Rights)
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AeybA8_Lt-gwYWpjczg2cDlkeDJzXzI5ZnJ0dnR0YzM&hl=de

Remember: This is a DRAFT version 0.8 of the Charter! We plan to finish the
2009 version of the charter soon, but the document is meant to evolve and
also gather background information (= serve as a knowledge hub for the
different themes).

Hence we setup a from to ENDORSE THE PROCESS rather than the Charter itself
(at this point)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dE1LYUp1UlhhblNOSUlYeUZqOUxqSFE6MA

Looking forward to discuss with you!
Max
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From Sylvia.Caras at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 14:22:46 2009
From: Sylvia.Caras at gmail.com (Sylvia Caras)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:22:46 -0800
Subject: [governance] US Food and Drug hearings
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20091114112007.026ae8a0@peoplewho.org>

FDA has established public docket FDA- 2009-N-0441 to receive public 
comment on promotion of FDA-regulated medical products (including 
prescription drugs for humans and animals, prescription biologics, 
and medical devices) using the Internet and social media tools.

"Although FDA has not comprehensively addressed when Internet
promotion of prescription drugs and medical devices is labeling versus
advertising, the agency has jurisdiction over all prescription drug and
biologic product promotion as well as all restricted device advertising
and all device promotional labeling when conducted by or on behalf of a
manufacturer, packer, or distributor. There are no regulations that
specifically address Internet promotion separately from the other types
of promotion discussed above, nor are there any regulations that
prohibit the use of certain types of media to promote drugs and medical
devices. Although no rule has specifically addressed Internet
promotion, it is fairly clear that some promotional efforts are
substantially similar in presentation and content to promotional
materials in other media or publications. At the same time, FDA
recognizes that the Internet possesses certain unique technological
features and that some online tools that may be used for promotion
offer novel presentation and content features. Another emerging issue
involves the reporting of adverse event data because such information
may initially be revealed using social media platforms in the context
of Internet promotion for FDA-regulated medical products."

<http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/E9-22618.htm>http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/E9-22618.htm 

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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Sat Nov 14 16:59:30 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 02:59:30 +0500
Subject: [governance] Invitation - ONI reception at the Internet Governance
 Forum
Message-ID: <D8EA099A80904D8798C5C1E71512E7AC@shahzad>

Dear Colleagues,

Open Net Initiative (ONI) is organizing a reception tomorrow as per following schedule:

Date:        November 15, 2009
Time:        Lunch hour 1300 hrs - 1400 hrs
Venue:      The Red Sea Room at the Maritime Congress Center (IGF venue)

The reception is to celebrate the ONI research and the new forthcoming book Access Controlled. You are cordially invited to attend this reception.

Light lunch will be served. No need to confirm.

Best wishes
Shahzad
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From ahmed.swapan at gmail.com  Sat Nov 14 17:15:21 2009
From: ahmed.swapan at gmail.com (Ahmed Swapan Mahmud)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:15:21 -0200
Subject: [governance] Invitation : ONI reception at the IGF tomorrow l
Message-ID: <c81ef57a0911141415h425f556brfdbfaaa00b7b4aa0@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

Pleased to invite you to the Reception party of Open Net Initiative (ONI)
Asia to be held on November 15, 2009; 1300 hrs - 1400 hrs; The Red Sea
Room, IGF Congress Center.. This will be a friendly gathering while ONI will
celebrate its forthcoming book titled Access Controlled. ONI researchers,
members, partners and friends will be there.

This is a great opportunity to meet friends and colleagues and meet some new
faces as well and to share ideas.

Hoping to meet you.

Regards,

Ahmed

-- 
Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
Executive Director, VOICE
House 67, Block-Ka
Pisciculture Housing Society
Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
Bangladesh
Tel : +88-02-8158688
Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
Alternate e-mail : exchange.voice at gmail.com
Website : www.voicebd.org
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From lohento at oridev.org  Sat Nov 14 20:01:02 2009
From: lohento at oridev.org (Lohento Ken)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 02:01:02 +0100
Subject: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa?
Message-ID: <4AFF52CE.7020708@oridev.org>

Dear all,

One the eve of Egypt 2009, for your info, this article I wrote on the 
IGF and Africa - in French however, but please find a summary in English 
below - our list/caucus is somehow concerned - comments welcome - Regards KL

The Internet Governance Forum: what does it mean for Africa? - Octobre 
2009 - working document in French - Download here 
http://www.iafric.net/benin/gouvernanceinternet.html

SUMMARY

This article seeks to understand the representation and interest of the 
IGF process within the African ICT community, and to give illustrations 
of its eventual impact. To do this, we, primarily, have analyzed 
exchanges on two key discussion lists on which African views on Internet 
governance are conveyed. To complement and validate if necessary 
observations, we have consulted some documents produced by some players 
and have questioned others. We have also based conclusions on our 
observation of the process since its launch in 2006.

The two lists analyzed are a panAfrican list (the AfrICANN list, created 
by the AfriNIC, the body responsible for managing IP and ASN addresses 
for the continent) and an international list (the Governance list, a 
discussion space for the international civil society Internet Governance 
Caucus). The first space was analyzed during six months (November 2008 - 
April 2009) and the second during a year (May 2008 - April 2009). These 
lists are two public lists, the most relevant for our analysis. It has 
been observed only 7% of contributions dealt with IGF on the AfrICANN in 
the period; this figure shows an interest in the international process, 
but it is minimal, on a space that gathered key African ICT governance 
players. However, as contributions on other subjects discussed on the 
list illustrates, Internet Governance as an issue is of a strong 
concern, specifically when it relates to its consolidation in Africa. 
“Localising IGF” has then become a common leitmotiv on the continent. 
 From another point of view, 5.43% of the Internet Governance Caucus 
list came from African subscribers during the twelve months analyzed. 
This figure is at least below the continent's presence on this space 
(about 10%). However, it has to be stressed that Africa do contributes 
to life in this group at all levels, including during development of 
contributions submitted to IGF. On both lists, the feeble African 
participation that may be understood by several factors is regretted, by 
African stakeholders themselves first of all, and calls for reversing 
this trend are often made. All these conclusions are validated by the 
observation of the whole process, the analysis of some written 
productions and discussions with some key actors.

A main conclusion after this research is that, although Africa 
contributes and participates in IGF in different manners and for various 
reasons, its interest in the international process is minimal; this is 
due to the mandate of the Forum (which is not seen as a space for 
solutions that Africa is urgently longing for), due to the basic access 
to ICT needs and to the crucial need to strengthen internet governance 
on the continent, which is seen as a greater priority. In addition, the 
involvement of the academia is laking, as well that of regional economic 
organizations (ECOWAS, SADC, etc.), maybe because governments seems less 
interested in the process. The other main conclusion is that, capacity 
building for some African ICT actors, and the increased awareness on the 
importance of the multi-stakeholder approach in policy making the 
sector, are seen as the key advantages gained from the international 
process.

It is therefore crucial, in this period of mid-term “evaluation” of IGF, 
and some days before its fourth annual meeting organized in Africa, that 
mechanisms that support capacity building are strengthened and made more 
visible, if further enhancing the importance of the international 
process in the eyes of actors of the continent is an aim.

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From jovank at diplomacy.edu  Sat Nov 14 23:23:03 2009
From: jovank at diplomacy.edu (Jovan Kurbalija)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 06:23:03 +0200
Subject: [governance] Social Reporting Lab at IGF 09
In-Reply-To: <c81ef57a0911141415h425f556brfdbfaaa00b7b4aa0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C7254EC7.1C483%jovank@diplomacy.edu>


Diplo-IKME Social Reporting Lab at Internet Governance Forum 2009
Information management and knowledge sharing in global policy processes


Have you ever thought about the many different types of information and
knowledge gathered, exchanged and taken home from an international policy
conference?

There are so many different information sources, formats and channels:
official documents, presentations, policy papers, reports; and now also
instant photographs, video recordings, blog posts and short comments (such
as Twitter) on the Internet. There are formal sessions, but also corridor
conversations, side-meetings in restaurants and bars; formal statements and
personal opinions. There is specialist and scientific knowledge and there
are the realities of those who will live with the policies. How does this
diverse information and knowledge landscape influence global policy
processes? Can more holistic reporting help make policy processes more
accessible and more inclusive?
 
Diplo <http://www.diplomacy.edu/>  and IKM Emergent
<http://www.ikmemergent.net/>  are organising a ³social reporting lab² at
this year's Internet Governance Forum (IGF) meeting in Egypt, with the aim
to explore how multiple knowledges relevant to policy processes can be
communicated - with help from online communities and the new Internet tools
known as the social web. Together with other similar initiatives the ³lab²
will help make the Forum more accessible and inclusive.
 
The IGF meetings belong to a new generation of international conferences,
involving a much wider variety of participants from governments, civil
society and businesses. Its operational procedures are relatively informal
and pragmatic. It creates a multidisciplinary policy space involving people
from a wide variety of professions, including diplomats, computer
specialists, academics and business people. The issues discussed at the IGF
affect a significant and constantly growing part of the global population
and may determine the way a number of developmental themes,T ranging from
education to equitable trade, develop in the future. As such, this is a
particularly good environment for examining the potential of social
reporting in a policy process.
 
Social reporting is not new. It's already happening at international
meetings worldwide, co-created by thousands of people around the world.
However, the Diplo-IKME lab introduces some new reporting objectives and
represents an experiment in information and knowledge sharing. Some of the
objectives are: 

- to help participants new to the social web begin to engage using available
tools;
- to identify some of the multiple knowledges that exist in the policy
space; 
- to create ³mashups² (a mix of multiple information streams) that
demonstrate these multiple  knowledges;
- to highlight developmental aspects of the IGF;
- to engage youth in the policy process
- to support remote participation of those who cannot attend the event in
person.
 
The social reporting lab will create a ³cloud² of blogs, Twitter feeds,
video interviews and other forms of online expression. The lab relies on a
diverse team of participants from different professional, cultural,
geographic and generational backgrounds, including youth groups and Diplo
alumni. Remotely connected participants will also contribute and engage with
the reporting and the online dialogue. To learn more about the Diplo-IKME
lab visit http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/ or contact us at
diplo-ikme at diplomacy.edu.

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From shailam at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 15 02:49:28 2009
From: shailam at yahoo.com (shaila mistry)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:49:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and principles:
 Practical Steps.  TOMORROW
In-Reply-To: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F8A@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>
References: <F1912244-7930-485D-BC18-7F0AC10DAEA3@aya.yale.edu> <1B9CBF91-0BA9-4CAB-956C-92DE00269A84@aya.yale.edu> <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F8A@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>
Message-ID: <590307.28342.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi Lisa
 I am listening to you as you speak in the workshop ! this is awesome! You sound great . There is no video!

 shaila  
california

Life is too short ....challenge the rules
Forgive quickly ... love truly ...and tenderly
Laugh constantly.....and never stop dreaming! 
 




________________________________
From: Lisa Horner <lisa at global-partners.co.uk>
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 6:46:51 AM
Subject: [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and principles: Practical Steps.  TOMORROW

Dear all 

I just wanted to draw your attention to our workshop tomorrow (Sunday) at 9.30 am.  All are welcome, in person and remotely via channel 6 here: http://www.un.org/webcast/igf/

Thanks,
Lisa


Human Rights and Principles in Internet Governance: Practical Steps



Workshop 314

2009 Internet Governance Forum, Sharm El Sheikh

Sunday 15th November, 09.30, Room 5.



The ongoing evolution of the internet and associated networked communications has profound implications for human rights.  New opportunities for fully realising our fundamental rights and freedoms have been unleashed by the development of new communication tools, platforms and practices.  However, new challenges have also arisen, for example with the emergence of new forms of surveillance and censorship.  There is an urgent need to develop strategies for protecting human rights in the internet age, whilst at the same time ensuring that internet governance fosters the continued development of an internet that supports their further realisation and expansion.  



This workshop will examine practical strategies for incorporating human rights standards into internet governance processes and policies.  Discussants will share their experiences of working on a wide range of initiatives that are helping to protect and expand human rights online, drawing out lessons learnt and emerging best practice.  The focus will be on challenges and opportunities for multi-stakeholder cooperation to create enabling environments and tools for the protection and promotion of human rights in the internet age.



All stakeholders are invited to contribute to what promises to be an engaging and lively discussion.  The workshop has been organised by Lisa Horner, Head of Research and Policy at Global Partners and Associates in the UK.  For more information, please email lisa at global-partners.co.uk.



Initiatives that will be explored during the workshop include:



The Global Network Initiative (GNI)



Discussants:

RebeccaMacKinnon, Global Voices/University of Hong Kong

EbeleOkobi-Harris, Yahoo! inc.



Launched in 2008, the GNI is a multi-stakeholder project that provides guidance to the ICT industry and its stakeholders on how to protect and advance freedom of expression and privacy.   The Initiative seeks to promote the rule of law and the adoption of laws, policies and practices that protect and respect freedom of expression and privacy through collaboration among companies, NGOs, investors and academics.  The Initiative has developed shared standards and guidelines which provide a systemic approach for companies facing government requests to protect the rights to freedom of expression and privacy of their users while respecting legitimate government authority. Over time, the aim is for the Principles and Implementation Guidelines to take root as a global standard for the ICT sector and to be adopted by companies worldwide, employed by diverse stakeholders for advancing human rights, and recognized by governments and international bodies.  



Participating companies commit to a number of measures upon joining the Initiative, including conducting human rights assessments and establishing internal teams to lead on implementing the Principles.  Civil society organisations, investors and academic participants also make a number of commitments, including the provision of expert advice and collaborative problem solving, and engagement with governments to promote the rule of law and policies that respect human rights.  EbeleOkobi-Harris and RebeccaMackinnon will discuss the development and implementation of the initiative, focusing on the experiences and lessons learnt by members from different stakeholder groups.



Human Rights Guidelines for Internet Service Providers 



Discussants:  

Michael Truppe, Council of Europe Expert

Malcolm Hutty, EuroISPA/London Internet Exchange



In October 2008 the Council of Europe launched Human Rights Guidelines for Internet Service Providers, providing ISPs with practical advice on steps that they should take to uphold and advance human rights.  The guidelines were developed in cooperation with the European Association of Internet Service Providers (EuroISPA).  Michael Truppe and Malcolm Hutty will draw out lessons learnt from the process of drafting the guidelines, and will discuss challenges and opportunities for their application and implementation.  



Kenya  ICT Network 



Discussant: Alice Munyua, KICTANet



The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) was created in October 2004 by a group of organisations from the private and civil society sectors.  The aim of the network was to foster collaboration between stakeholders with different expertise and view points around the commonly shared concern of the need for an ICT policy in Kenya.  The network created an enabling environment for dialogue on ICT policy issues, and succeeded in accelerating the ICT policy and regulatory process.  The outcome was the inclusive and participatory drafting of Kenya's ICT Policy, and its adoption in March 2006.  Alice Munyua will discuss the challenges and opportunities that Kictanet faced, drawing out examples of best practice for collaborative policy initiatives elsewhere.



Code of Good Practice on information, participation and transparency in Internet Governance



Discussant: Michael Remmert, Council of Europe



The Council of Europe, UNECE and APC have drafted "A Code of Good Practice on information, participation and transparency in Internet Governance".   The draft is based on the WSIS principles and on existing arrangements in Internet Governance institutions and uses the Aarhus Convention as a benchmark where appropriate. It is the result of consultations with internet governance stakeholders during the IGF process since 2006 and of a comparative assessment of existing information and participation arrangements in a number of internet governance institutions Michael Remmert, Head of the Council of Europe's Project "Good Governance in the Information Society", will discuss the background to the initiative and plans for its implementation.  He will also consider the role that he envisages it playing in helping to foster internet governance that embodies and supports human rights.









Civil Society Information Society Advisory Council to the OECD



Discussant: Katitza Rodriguez, EPIC



In 2008, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) formalised the participation of civil society in the work of their Committee for Information Computer and Communications Policy (ICCP) through the Civil Society Information Society Advisory Council (CSISAC).  The main purpose of the CSISAC is to contribute constructively to the policy work of the OECD-ICCP and to promote the exchange of information between the OECD civil society participants.  Katitza Rodriguez, from the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), is the CSISAC Liaison at the OECDICCP Committee.  She will discuss the background to CSISAC, examining whether any lessons can be learnt from the process so far that could help to enhance multi-stakeholder cooperation in other international fora.



Charter of Human Rights and Principles on the Internet 



Discussant: Natasha Primo, APC



In 2001-2002, members and partner organisations of the Association for Progressive Communications (APC) developed the APC Internet Rights Charter at "internet rights" workshops held in Europe, Asia, Latin America and Africa in 2001-2002.  The charter underwent revision in 2006, and is currently being redrafted collaboratively in cooperation with the Dynamic Coalition on Internet Rights and Principles as the Charter of Human Rights and Principles on the Internet.  The aim of the charter is to interpret what the standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights mean in the context of the internet, and to develop principles to foster the development of an internet that can support human rights.  Natasha Primo from APC will discuss how the charter has been used as a tool for civil society advocacy, and will examine the impact that it has had in practical terms.  She will also consider prospects for using the new revised charter as a platform for
 multi-stakeholder cooperation on human rights issues.





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From isolatedn at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 03:05:11 2009
From: isolatedn at gmail.com (Sivasubramanian Muthusamy)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:05:11 +0200
Subject: [governance] Invitation to the Caucus participants: Workshops No
 319, 323 and 106
Message-ID: <fecfce260911150005i79c32e2ag60dcf206c454edf7@mail.gmail.com>

Hello

The partipants of the Internet Governance Caucus are invited
to participate at the IGF workshops
Roundtable: Balancing the need for Security and the concerns for Civil Liberties
(Workshop No 323)
with
Bruce Schneier, Alejandro Pisanty, Andres Piazza, Zahid Jamil,
Wolfgang Benedek , Jean Marc Dinant and Simon Davies
on 17th November, 9 am
Room 5, Sphinx

AND

Workshop on Fundamentals: Core Internet Values
(Workshop No 319)
with
Lynn St Amour, Daniel Dardailler, Patrick Falstrom , Ambassador Yrjo
Lansipuro, Rt. Hon' Alun
Michael, MP., Nathaniel James, Ian Peter, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy,
and Markus Kummer
on 17th November 10.45 am
Room 5, Sphinx

AND

Children in the Age of Mobile Access: The promises of Internet
co-examined with the increasing challenges to Child Safety
(Workshop No 106, co-organized with the Council of Europe and ECPAT)
with
Anjan Bose, Gitte Stald, Jonne Soininen, Ruben Rodriguez
Rudi Vansnick and Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
on 18th November, 2 pm
Room 5, Sphinx


Sivasubramanian Muthusamy

Blog: http://isocmadras.blogspot.com
facebook: http://is.gd/x8Sh
LinkedIn: http://is.gd/x8U6
Twitter: http://is.gd/x8Vz
____________________________________________________________
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 03:06:27 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:36:27 -0430
Subject: [IRP] [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and principles:
In-Reply-To: <590307.28342.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <F1912244-7930-485D-BC18-7F0AC10DAEA3@aya.yale.edu>	<1B9CBF91-0BA9-4CAB-956C-92DE00269A84@aya.yale.edu>	<43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F8A@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local> <590307.28342.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AFFB683.4060504@gmail.com>

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From ocl at gih.com  Sun Nov 15 03:21:15 2009
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:21:15 +0200
Subject: [governance] Invitation to the Caucus participants: Workshops
 No 319, 323 and 106
References: <fecfce260911150005i79c32e2ag60dcf206c454edf7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA0AB5D23FA94D659E66B486A7D6D94E@GIH.CO.UK>

Shiva wrote:

> Children in the Age of Mobile Access: The promises of Internet
> co-examined with the increasing challenges to Child Safety
> (Workshop No 106, co-organized with the Council of Europe and ECPAT)
> with
> Anjan Bose, Gitte Stald, Jonne Soininen, Ruben Rodriguez
> Rudi Vansnick and Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
> on 18th November, 2 pm
> Room 5, Sphinx

Actually, latest news is that the Egyptian First Lady will be addressing the 
Main Session attendees on wednesday morning, so the schedules have been 
somehow modified time-wise. It is my understanding that the afternoon 
sessions will now start at 14:30. Since there might be further changes, 
please check:
http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/2009/sharm_el_Sheikh/WorkshopSchedule.html

Also, the numbering of the rooms has changed (it was wrong to start with)
It's Room 9, Sphinx.

We look forward to seeing you there,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html 

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From nyangkweagien at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 04:21:08 2009
From: nyangkweagien at gmail.com (Nyangkwe Agien Aaron)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:21:08 +0100
Subject: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa?
In-Reply-To: <4AFF52CE.7020708@oridev.org>
References: <4AFF52CE.7020708@oridev.org>
Message-ID: <a6bc8cb30911150121vb40ee7emf9f705c7f626f998@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All

Thanks Ken for the research

However:

The involvement of the academia is laking, as well that of regional economic
organizations (ECOWAS, SADC, etc.), maybe because governments seems less
interested in the process.

This is due to the fact nearly all the governments of the regions are
illigitimate and have less concern for issues that concern those governed

The mandate of the Forum (which is not seen as a space for solutions that
Africa is urgently longing for), due to the basic access to ICT needs and to
the crucial need to strengthen internet governance on the continent,

You hit the nail square Ken.
Capacity building is what is mostly needed here. Internet access dispite the
availability of a down stream optical fibre that is not optimally exploited
(nobody know why, may be reason is due my remarks above)
May I say that after a Marshall plan to rebuild Europe after the second
world war, we need an ICT plan for Africa that includes AN EFFECTIVE ROUTING
OUT OF ILLIGIMATE GOVERNMENTS SUPPORTED BY THE WEST.

Best regards

Aaron

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Lohento Ken <lohento at oridev.org> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> One the eve of Egypt 2009, for your info, this article I wrote on the IGF
> and Africa - in French however, but please find a summary in English below -
> our list/caucus is somehow concerned - comments welcome - Regards KL
>
> The Internet Governance Forum: what does it mean for Africa? - Octobre 2009
> - working document in French - Download here
> http://www.iafric.net/benin/gouvernanceinternet.html
>
> SUMMARY
>
> This article seeks to understand the representation and interest of the IGF
> process within the African ICT community, and to give illustrations of its
> eventual impact. To do this, we, primarily, have analyzed exchanges on two
> key discussion lists on which African views on Internet governance are
> conveyed. To complement and validate if necessary observations, we have
> consulted some documents produced by some players and have questioned
> others. We have also based conclusions on our observation of the process
> since its launch in 2006.
>
> The two lists analyzed are a panAfrican list (the AfrICANN list, created by
> the AfriNIC, the body responsible for managing IP and ASN addresses for the
> continent) and an international list (the Governance list, a discussion
> space for the international civil society Internet Governance Caucus). The
> first space was analyzed during six months (November 2008 - April 2009) and
> the second during a year (May 2008 - April 2009). These lists are two public
> lists, the most relevant for our analysis. It has been observed only 7% of
> contributions dealt with IGF on the AfrICANN in the period; this figure
> shows an interest in the international process, but it is minimal, on a
> space that gathered key African ICT governance players. However, as
> contributions on other subjects discussed on the list illustrates, Internet
> Governance as an issue is of a strong concern, specifically when it relates
> to its consolidation in Africa. “Localising IGF” has then become a common
> leitmotiv on the continent. From another point of view, 5.43% of the
> Internet Governance Caucus list came from African subscribers during the
> twelve months analyzed. This figure is at least below the continent's
> presence on this space (about 10%). However, it has to be stressed that
> Africa do contributes to life in this group at all levels, including during
> development of contributions submitted to IGF. On both lists, the feeble
> African participation that may be understood by several factors is
> regretted, by African stakeholders themselves first of all, and calls for
> reversing this trend are often made. All these conclusions are validated by
> the observation of the whole process, the analysis of some written
> productions and discussions with some key actors.
>
> A main conclusion after this research is that, although Africa contributes
> and participates in IGF in different manners and for various reasons, its
> interest in the international process is minimal; this is due to the mandate
> of the Forum (which is not seen as a space for solutions that Africa is
> urgently longing for), due to the basic access to ICT needs and to the
> crucial need to strengthen internet governance on the continent, which is
> seen as a greater priority. In addition, the involvement of the academia is
> laking, as well that of regional economic organizations (ECOWAS, SADC,
> etc.), maybe because governments seems less interested in the process. The
> other main conclusion is that, capacity building for some African ICT
> actors, and the increased awareness on the importance of the
> multi-stakeholder approach in policy making the sector, are seen as the key
> advantages gained from the international process.
>
> It is therefore crucial, in this period of mid-term “evaluation” of IGF,
> and some days before its fourth annual meeting organized in Africa, that
> mechanisms that support capacity building are strengthened and made more
> visible, if further enhancing the importance of the international process in
> the eyes of actors of the continent is an aim.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
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From hempalshrestha at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 04:29:44 2009
From: hempalshrestha at gmail.com (Hempal Shrestha)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:29:44 +0200
Subject: [governance] Reminder re IGC caucus meeting at Sharm
In-Reply-To: <ad14556f0911120628l5cd8de18vaf99fa228e48a415@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C7219FF6.7DBA%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
	 <ad14556f0911120628l5cd8de18vaf99fa228e48a415@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf5d709e0911150129u3b377e39t5390d6b27e1c4881@mail.gmail.com>

Hi I guess, did I missed the meeting ? Is there still anything in the plan?

Hempal Shresta

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Charity Gamboa <charityg at diplomacy.edu>wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> Will try to make it as soon as we are done with the ISOC meeting on the
> 14th. I am leaving now for Sharm. See you!
>
> Regards,
> Charity
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to remind everyone that our meeting is scheduled for Saturday
>> Evening,
>> November 14, from 7pm to 8pm at the conference venue. The room is the Nile
>> Valley room, which will have been used for Giganet earlier in the day.
>>
>> Please make every effort to be on time, particularly if coming from other
>> venues and meetings, as we will not be able to run overtime with this
>> meeting and many people will be keen to get the days meetings out of the
>> way
>> and relax. So I hope we can start promptly at 7pm and, if anything, finish
>> early.
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://charitygamboa.towerofbabel.com
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
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>
>
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From lisa at global-partners.co.uk  Sun Nov 15 04:59:44 2009
From: lisa at global-partners.co.uk (Lisa Horner)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:59:44 -0000
Subject: [IRP] [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and
 principles:Practical Steps. TOMORROW
References: <F1912244-7930-485D-BC18-7F0AC10DAEA3@aya.yale.edu><1B9CBF91-0BA9-4CAB-956C-92DE00269A84@aya.yale.edu><43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F8A@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local><590307.28342.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com><4AFFB683.4060504@gmail.com> <a068833e0911150108v227efa34j2bb1abc3a1966096@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F92@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>

Thanks to all.  So great to know we had remote participation, and sorry we didn't have a system to take questions from you. We'll keep you in the loop about all the side discussions!
 
All the best,
Lisa

________________________________

From: irp-bounces at lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org on behalf of Emily Laidlaw
Sent: Sun 15/11/2009 09:08
To: Ginger Paque
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org; IRP
Subject: Re: [IRP] [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and principles:Practical Steps. TOMORROW



Great chairing Lisa.  Very interesting discussion.

I look forward to hearing about this afternoon's internal IRP discussion.

All the best from London,

Emily

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:
> Captioning is available at http://www.streamtext.net/text.aspx?event=ITU,
> and you can join the chat.
>
> Shaila, we are on Skype...
> Best, Ginger
>
> shaila mistry wrote:
>
> Hi Lisa
>  I am listening to you as you speak in the workshop ! this is awesome! You
> sound great . There is no video!
>  shaila
> california
>
> Life is too short ....challenge the rules
>
> Forgive quickly ... love truly ...and tenderly
>
> Laugh constantly.....and never stop dreaming!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lisa Horner <lisa at global-partners.co.uk>
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 6:46:51 AM
> Subject: [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and principles: Practical
> Steps. TOMORROW
>
> Dear all
>
> I just wanted to draw your attention to our workshop tomorrow (Sunday) at
> 9.30 am.  All are welcome, in person and remotely via channel 6 here:
> http://www.un.org/webcast/igf/
>
> Thanks,
> Lisa
>
>
> Human Rights and Principles in Internet Governance: Practical Steps
>
>
>
> Workshop 314
>
> 2009 Internet Governance Forum, Sharm El Sheikh
>
> Sunday 15th November, 09.30, Room 5.
>
>
>
> The ongoing evolution of the internet and associated networked
> communications has profound implications for human rights.  New
> opportunities for fully realising our fundamental rights and freedoms have
> been unleashed by the development of new communication tools, platforms and
> practices.  However, new challenges have also arisen, for example with the
> emergence of new forms of surveillance and censorship.  There is an urgent
> need to develop strategies for protecting human rights in the internet age,
> whilst at the same time ensuring that internet governance fosters the
> continued development of an internet that supports their further realisation
> and expansion.
>
>
>
> This workshop will examine practical strategies for incorporating human
> rights standards into internet governance processes and policies.
> Discussants will share their experiences of working on a wide range of
> initiatives that are helping to protect and expand human rights online,
> drawing out lessons learnt and emerging best practice.  The focus will be on
> challenges and opportunities for multi-stakeholder cooperation to create
> enabling environments and tools for the protection and promotion of human
> rights in the internet age.
>
>
>
> All stakeholders are invited to contribute to what promises to be an
> engaging and lively discussion.  The workshop has been organised by Lisa
> Horner, Head of Research and Policy at Global Partners and Associates in the
> UK.  For more information, please email lisa at global-partners.co.uk.
>
>
>
> Initiatives that will be explored during the workshop include:
>
>
>
> The Global Network Initiative (GNI)
>
>
>
> Discussants:
>
> Rebecca MacKinnon, Global Voices/University of Hong Kong
>
> Ebele Okobi-Harris, Yahoo! inc.
>
>
>
> Launched in 2008, the GNI is a multi-stakeholder project that provides
> guidance to the ICT industry and its stakeholders on how to protect and
> advance freedom of expression and privacy.  The Initiative seeks to promote
> the rule of law and the adoption of laws, policies and practices that
> protect and respect freedom of expression and privacy through collaboration
> among companies, NGOs, investors and academics.  The Initiative has
> developed shared standards and guidelines which provide a systemic approach
> for companies facing government requests to protect the rights to freedom of
> expression and privacy of their users while respecting legitimate government
> authority. Over time, the aim is for the Principles and Implementation
> Guidelines to take root as a global standard for the ICT sector and to be
> adopted by companies worldwide, employed by diverse stakeholders for
> advancing human rights, and recognized by governments and international
> bodies.
>
>
>
> Participating companies commit to a number of measures upon joining the
> Initiative, including conducting human rights assessments and establishing
> internal teams to lead on implementing the Principles.  Civil society
> organisations, investors and academic participants also make a number of
> commitments, including the provision of expert advice and collaborative
> problem solving, and engagement with governments to promote the rule of law
> and policies that respect human rights.  Ebele Okobi-Harris and Rebecca
> Mackinnon will discuss the development and implementation of the initiative,
> focusing on the experiences and lessons learnt by members from different
> stakeholder groups.
>
>
>
> Human Rights Guidelines for Internet Service Providers
>
>
>
> Discussants:
>
> Michael Truppe, Council of Europe Expert
>
> Malcolm Hutty, EuroISPA/London Internet Exchange
>
>
>
> In October 2008 the Council of Europe launched Human Rights Guidelines for
> Internet Service Providers, providing ISPs with practical advice on steps
> that they should take to uphold and advance human rights.  The guidelines
> were developed in cooperation with the European Association of Internet
> Service Providers (EuroISPA).  Michael Truppe and Malcolm Hutty will draw
> out lessons learnt from the process of drafting the guidelines, and will
> discuss challenges and opportunities for their application and
> implementation.
>
>
>
> Kenya  ICT Network
>
>
>
> Discussant: Alice Munyua, KICTANet
>
>
>
> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) was created in October 2004 by a
> group of organisations from the private and civil society sectors.  The aim
> of the network was to foster collaboration between stakeholders with
> different expertise and view points around the commonly shared concern of
> the need for an ICT policy in Kenya.  The network created an enabling
> environment for dialogue on ICT policy issues, and succeeded in accelerating
> the ICT policy and regulatory process.  The outcome was the inclusive and
> participatory drafting of Kenya's ICT Policy, and its adoption in March
> 2006.  Alice Munyua will discuss the challenges and opportunities that
> Kictanet faced, drawing out examples of best practice for collaborative
> policy initiatives elsewhere.
>
>
>
> Code of Good Practice on information, participation and transparency in
> Internet Governance
>
>
>
> Discussant: Michael Remmert, Council of Europe
>
>
>
> The Council of Europe, UNECE and APC have drafted "A Code of Good Practice
> on information, participation and transparency in Internet Governance".  The
> draft is based on the WSIS principles and on existing arrangements in
> Internet Governance institutions and uses the Aarhus Convention as a
> benchmark where appropriate. It is the result of consultations with internet
> governance stakeholders during the IGF process since 2006 and of a
> comparative assessment of existing information and participation
> arrangements in a number of internet governance institutions Michael
> Remmert, Head of the Council of Europe's Project "Good Governance in the
> Information Society", will discuss the background to the initiative and
> plans for its implementation.  He will also consider the role that he
> envisages it playing in helping to foster internet governance that embodies
> and supports human rights.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Civil Society Information Society Advisory Council to the OECD
>
>
>
> Discussant: Katitza Rodriguez, EPIC
>
>
>
> In 2008, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD)
> formalised the participation of civil society in the work of their Committee
> for Information Computer and Communications Policy (ICCP) through the Civil
> Society Information Society Advisory Council (CSISAC).  The main purpose of
> the CSISAC is to contribute constructively to the policy work of the
> OECD-ICCP and to promote the exchange of information between the OECD civil
> society participants.  Katitza Rodriguez, from the Electronic Privacy
> Information Center (EPIC), is the CSISAC Liaison at the OECD ICCP
> Committee.  She will discuss the background to CSISAC, examining whether any
> lessons can be learnt from the process so far that could help to enhance
> multi-stakeholder cooperation in other international fora.
>
>
>
> Charter of Human Rights and Principles on the Internet
>
>
>
> Discussant: Natasha Primo, APC
>
>
>
> In 2001-2002, members and partner organisations of the Association for
> Progressive Communications (APC) developed the APC Internet Rights Charter
> at "internet rights" workshops held in Europe, Asia, Latin America and
> Africa in 2001-2002.  The charter underwent revision in 2006, and is
> currently being redrafted collaboratively in cooperation with the Dynamic
> Coalition on Internet Rights and Principles as the Charter of Human Rights
> and Principles on the Internet.  The aim of the charter is to interpret what
> the standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights mean in the
> context of the internet, and to develop principles to foster the development
> of an internet that can support human rights.  Natasha Primo from APC will
> discuss how the charter has been used as a tool for civil society advocacy,
> and will examine the impact that it has had in practical terms.  She will
> also consider prospects for using the new revised charter as a platform for
> multi-stakeholder cooperation on human rights issues.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> ________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> IRP mailing list
> IRP at lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org
> http://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/listinfo.cgi/irp-internetrightsandprinciples.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IRP mailing list
> IRP at lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org
> http://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/listinfo.cgi/irp-internetrightsandprinciples.org
>
>
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/listinfo.cgi/irp-internetrightsandprinciples.org


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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 05:11:28 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:41:28 -0430
Subject: [IRP] [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and
 principles:Practical
In-Reply-To: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F92@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>
References: <F1912244-7930-485D-BC18-7F0AC10DAEA3@aya.yale.edu><1B9CBF91-0BA9-4CAB-956C-92DE00269A84@aya.yale.edu><43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F8A@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local><590307.28342.qm@web55208.mail.re4.yahoo.com><4AFFB683.4060504@gmail.com> <a068833e0911150108v227efa34j2bb1abc3a1966096@mail.gmail.com> <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F92@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>
Message-ID: <4AFFD3D0.8080107@paque.net>

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From jlfullsack at orange.fr  Sun Nov 15 05:51:59 2009
From: jlfullsack at orange.fr (Jean-Louis FULLSACK)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:51:59 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
In-Reply-To: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
References: <1258052038.2973.1346.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <6196571.100419.1258282319555.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f33>

Dear Anriette and all

This Workshop is a very good initiative, mainly for its agenda. As for its organisers, I once more do regret the absence of the European Union (and warmly congratulate the CoE and Mr Remmer, always on the IG forefront) because there are strong links with the developing countries namely in the framework of the EU-ACP agreements and especially with Africa through specialized bodies and mechanisms (Infrastructure, Education, Inter-parliamentarian, ...). 
I do hope Africa will be well represented (i.e. with active CS speakers and contributors) and get the strong support from Europe for the proposals that help alleviate the critical problems Africans are facing in establishing a really continental Internet for the sake of the future of Africa and of its Culture(s). 

With my best wishes for a successful IGF in plain respect with the WSIS CS declarations, and all the best

Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT 





> Message du 12/11/09 19:54
> De : "Anriette Esterhuysen" 
> A : "governance at lists.cpsr.org" 
> Copie à : 
> Objet : [governance] Invite: Code of Good Practice for IG Workshop
> 
> 
> PLEASE JOIN US FOR THE WORKSHOP ON A DRAFT CODE OF GOOD PRACTICE FOR
> INTERNET GOVERNANCE VERSION 1.0 (Workshop 96) 
> Wednesday 18 November, 9.00–10.30 am, Room 3: Suez Canal
> 
> This workshop is organised jointly by the United Nations Economic 
> Commission for Europe (UNECE), the Council of Europe and the Association
> for Progressive Communications (APC), taking forward a trilateral 
> initiative that has been developed since the first IGF in Athens.
> 
> This workshop will be different from all the previous ones we
> convened...We have a draft code and we need your feedback!
> 
> Visit http://intgovcode.org/index.php/Main_Page for background
> information and a copy of the draft code.
> 
> This first draft of a Code of Good Practice on information, 
> participation and transparency in Internet governance is based on the 
> WSIS principles and on existing arrangements in Internet Governance 
> institutions and uses the Aarhus Convention as a benchmark where 
> appropriate. It is the result of consultations with IG stakeholders 
> during the IGF process since 2006 and of a comparative assessment of 
> existing information and participation arrangements in a number of 
> selected Internet governance institutions that agreed to participate in 
> this exercise.
> 
> The aim of the workshop is to discuss the draft text with a view to an 
> agreement on its format and its key elements from the perspective of 
> both Internet governance entities and Internet users.
> 
> The workshop will consist of different stakeholder groups discussing the
> draft code of practice from their respective perspectives. Breakout 
> groups will be facilitated by representatives of the various stakeholder
> groups:
> 
> * Internet technical community (including naming and numbering orgs) - Constance Bommelaer, ISOC (Europe), 
> Paul Wilson, APCNIC (Asia Pacific)
> * Internet standards setting bodies (tbc)
> * Capacity building organisations - Ms Natasha Primo, APC (Africa)
> * Governments and Inter-governmental organisations- Mr Thomas Schneider,
> BAKOM, Switzerland (Europe)
> * Academic and research community – Jeanette Hoffman (Europe)
> * Civil Society in Internet Governance – Brendan Kuerbis, Internet 
> Governance Project (USA)
> 
> The initiative will be introduced by:
> 
> Michael Remmert, Council of Europe
> Anriette Esterhuysen, APC, and,
> David Souter, ict Development Associates
> 
> It will be facilitated by Karen Banks from the APC.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing your views on the draft code!
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> anriette esterhuysen - executive director
> association for progressive communications
> p o box 29755 melville - south africa 2109
> anriette at apc.org - tel/fax + 27 11 726 1692
> http://www.apc.org
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> 
>
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Sun Nov 15 05:59:09 2009
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:59:09 -0200
Subject: [governance] la&c II pre-igf meeting report just presented in
 sharm el sheik
In-Reply-To: <bf5d709e0911150129u3b377e39t5390d6b27e1c4881@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C7219FF6.7DBA%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>	 <ad14556f0911120628l5cd8de18vaf99fa228e48a415@mail.gmail.com> <bf5d709e0911150129u3b377e39t5390d6b27e1c4881@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AFFDEFD.1080302@cafonso.ca>

Dear people,

Attached please find the summary report of our regional meeting as 
presented in the plenary of the IGF Sharm el Sheik today.

fraternal regards

--c.a.

Hempal Shrestha wrote:
> Hi I guess, did I missed the meeting ? Is there still anything in the plan?
>  
> Hempal Shresta
> 
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Charity Gamboa <charityg at diplomacy.edu 
> <mailto:charityg at diplomacy.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Ian,
> 
>     Will try to make it as soon as we are done with the ISOC meeting on
>     the 14th. I am leaving now for Sharm. See you!
> 
>     Regards,
>     Charity
> 
> 
>     On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com
>     <mailto:ian.peter at ianpeter.com>> wrote:
> 
>         Just to remind everyone that our meeting is scheduled for
>         Saturday Evening,
>         November 14, from 7pm to 8pm at the conference venue. The room
>         is the Nile
>         Valley room, which will have been used for Giganet earlier in
>         the day.
> 
>         Please make every effort to be on time, particularly if coming
>         from other
>         venues and meetings, as we will not be able to run overtime with
>         this
>         meeting and many people will be keen to get the days meetings
>         out of the way
>         and relax. So I hope we can start promptly at 7pm and, if
>         anything, finish
>         early.
> 
> 
> 
>         ____________________________________________________________
>         You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>             governance at lists.cpsr.org <mailto:governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>         To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>             governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>         <mailto:governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
> 
>         For all list information and functions, see:
>             http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     http://charitygamboa.towerofbabel.com
>     <http://charitygamboa.towerofbabel.com/>
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________
>     You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>         governance at lists.cpsr.org <mailto:governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>     To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>         governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>     <mailto:governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
> 
>     For all list information and functions, see:
>         http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> 
> 
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From ahmed.swapan at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 06:54:08 2009
From: ahmed.swapan at gmail.com (Ahmed Swapan Mahmud)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:54:08 -0200
Subject: [governance] Info form IGF
Message-ID: <c81ef57a0911150354wea2ad5dg74af888015ef03c8@mail.gmail.com>

FYI/

A while ago I was interviewed by the Egyptian television 'Nile TV' while I
spoke on ONI and its project in Asia -- censorship and surveillance; how
democratic space is being controlled, the State and corporations are
imposing CS, blocking access and restricting democratic and human rights
practices...
Regards, Ahmed
-- 
Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
Executive Director, VOICE
House 67, Block-Ka
Pisciculture Housing Society
Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
Bangladesh
Tel : +88-02-8158688
Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
Alternate e-mail : exchange.voice at gmail.com
Website : www.voicebd.org
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 06:55:13 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 06:55:13 -0500
Subject: [governance] IGF Workshop: Human rights and principles:
 Practical
Message-ID: <45ed74050911150355y947f03y4177b0c732182403@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Lisa, thanks for posting this.  Will your session be archived?  Video,
audio, transcript, notes, other?

Hope so, and if you can send a link or other info.

Best wishes, Linda.



On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Lisa Horner <lisa at global-partners.co.uk>wrote:

> Dear all
>
> I just wanted to draw your attention to our workshop tomorrow (Sunday) at
> 9.30 am.  All are welcome, in person and remotely via channel 6 here:
> http://www.un.org/webcast/igf/
>
> Thanks,
> Lisa
>
>
> Human Rights and Principles in Internet Governance: Practical Steps
>
>
>
> Workshop 314
>
> 2009 Internet Governance Forum, Sharm El Sheikh
>
> Sunday 15th November, 09.30, Room 5.
>
>
>
> The ongoing evolution of the internet and associated networked
> communications has profound implications for human rights.  New
> opportunities for fully realising our fundamental rights and freedoms have
> been unleashed by the development of new communication tools, platforms and
> practices.  However, new challenges have also arisen, for example with the
> emergence of new forms of surveillance and censorship.  There is an urgent
> need to develop strategies for protecting human rights in the internet age,
> whilst at the same time ensuring that internet governance fosters the
> continued development of an internet that supports their further realisation
> and expansion.
>
>
>
> This workshop will examine practical strategies for incorporating human
> rights standards into internet governance processes and policies.
>  Discussants will share their experiences of working on a wide range of
> initiatives that are helping to protect and expand human rights online,
> drawing out lessons learnt and emerging best practice.  The focus will be on
> challenges and opportunities for multi-stakeholder cooperation to create
> enabling environments and tools for the protection and promotion of human
> rights in the internet age.
>
>
>
> All stakeholders are invited to contribute to what promises to be an
> engaging and lively discussion.  The workshop has been organised by Lisa
> Horner, Head of Research and Policy at Global Partners and Associates in the
> UK.  For more information, please email lisa at global-partners.co.uk.
> - - -
> With warm regards,
> LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:
> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).
> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
> CCC/UN.
>
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Sun Nov 15 08:31:03 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:31:03 +0500
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
 Security Office
Message-ID: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>

Greetings from the IGF,

Our ONI reception was rattled by IGF security, who objected to a poster 
advertising "Access Controlled", the book to be introduced at this event. 
The poster was thrown on the floor and we were told to remove it because of 
the reference to China and Tibet.  We refused, and security guards came and 
removed it. The incident was witnessed by many.

The poster promoting ONI new forthcoming book "Access Controlled" was 
removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster violated 
UN's policy. The sentence in question reads, "The first generation of 
Internet controls consisted largely of building firewalls at key Internet 
gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of China" is one of the first 
national Internet filtering systems."

"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and surveillance 
policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is the point of 
something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert Director of the Citizen Lab, Munk 
Centre for International Studies,and one of ONI's principal investigators.

According to Ron Deibert of The Citizen Lab and Open Net Initiatives (ONI) 
Principal, one of the organizers of the reception event, he will file a 
complaint against the`censorship' of their event and send it to the United 
Nations Human Rights Commission.

"We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because 
someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese 
government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here to 
discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance practices 
on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our views," said Al 
Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a member of the ONI 
Network.

We the members of ONI Network protest on this censorship at IGF, and ask the 
question that What IGF is for, if we can not discuss Internet Governance 
issues at this forum.

Best wishes and regards

Shahzad Ahmad
Bytesforall, Pakistan

____________________________________________________________
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 09:02:26 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:02:26 +0300
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN 
In-Reply-To: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>

Shahzad,

Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get
your books back immediately, with an apology.

I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an
increasingly large role in IG.

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:
> Greetings from the IGF,
>
> Our ONI reception was rattled by IGF security, who objected to a poster
> advertising "Access Controlled", the book to be introduced at this event.
> The poster was thrown on the floor and we were told to remove it because of
> the reference to China and Tibet.  We refused, and security guards came and
> removed it. The incident was witnessed by many.
>
> The poster promoting ONI new forthcoming book "Access Controlled" was
> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster violated
> UN's policy. The sentence in question reads, "The first generation of
> Internet controls consisted largely of building firewalls at key Internet
> gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of China" is one of the first
> national Internet filtering systems."
>
> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and surveillance
> policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is the point of
> something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert Director of the Citizen Lab, Munk
> Centre for International Studies,and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>
> According to Ron Deibert of The Citizen Lab and Open Net Initiatives (ONI)
> Principal, one of the organizers of the reception event, he will file a
> complaint against the`censorship' of their event and send it to the United
> Nations Human Rights Commission.
>
> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here to
> discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance practices
> on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our views," said Al
> Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a member of the ONI
> Network.
>
> We the members of ONI Network protest on this censorship at IGF, and ask the
> question that What IGF is for, if we can not discuss Internet Governance
> issues at this forum.
>
> Best wishes and regards
>
> Shahzad Ahmad
> Bytesforall, Pakistan
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Sun Nov 15 09:47:19 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:47:19 +0200
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad> <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>

On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote:

> Shahzad,
>
> Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get
> your books back immediately, with an apology.
>
> I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an
> increasingly large role in IG.

+1

Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop  
commitments organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the  
Secretariat know why?

In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this  
appalling action.

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

____________________________________________________________
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 09:58:46 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:28:46 -0430
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad> <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com> <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <4B001726.6060608@paque.net>

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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 10:33:21 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:03:21 -0430
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad> <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com> <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <4B001F41.90302@gmail.com>

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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Sun Nov 15 10:38:34 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:38:34 +0500
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad> <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com> <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org> <4B001726.6060608@paque.net>
Message-ID: <94B9E3DA38114BC2A084FCC74E15B1F6@shahzad>

Dear Colleagues,

Did discuss this with quite a few friends here and most of them agree for a joint action. How and what I don't know but probably civil society representatives speaking on the plenary can mention this appalling event and register the concern. Just a suggestion and then I will really suggest MAG members to take this up with IGF.

But I would really urged on the caucus members attending IGF to take this up strongly otherwise, such things will keep happening more and more in future too. 

best wishes
Shahzad
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ginger Paque 
  To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Jeremy Malcolm 
  Cc: McTim 
  Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN


  I do not think a boycott is the answer. It removes the people who most object to the action... I think an effort should be made to bring this up as an issue. Can the IGC coordinate on this?

  Jeremy Malcolm wrote: 
    On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote: 


      Shahzad, 

      Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get 
      your books back immediately, with an apology. 

      I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an 
      increasingly large role in IG. 


    +1 

    Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop commitments organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the Secretariat know why? 

    In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this appalling action. 




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From qshatti at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 10:56:56 2009
From: qshatti at gmail.com (Qusai AlShatti)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:56:56 +0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
Message-ID: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All:
A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
tomorrow.

Regards,

Qusai
____________________________________________________________
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From gate.one205 at yahoo.fr  Sun Nov 15 11:10:52 2009
From: gate.one205 at yahoo.fr (Jean-Yves GATETE)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:10:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear Qusai,

Hope I will make it there,count me.

Best regards,

Jean-Yves GATETE

--- En date de : Dim 15.11.09, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com> a écrit :

De: Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
Objet: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Dimanche 15 Novembre 2009, 16h56

Dear All:
A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
tomorrow.

Regards,

Qusai
____________________________________________________________
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Sun Nov 15 11:13:46 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:13:46 +0500
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
References: <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C279D9CE80504726B116C8C3088DB74B@shahzad>

me too... count me in. 

best wishes
Shahzad

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jean-Yves GATETE 
  To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Qusai AlShatti 
  Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:10 PM
  Subject: Re : [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009


        Dear Qusai,

        Hope I will make it there,count me.

        Best regards,

        Jean-Yves GATETE

        --- En date de : Dim 15.11.09, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com> a écrit :


          De: Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
          Objet: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
          À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
          Date: Dimanche 15 Novembre 2009, 16h56


          Dear All:
          A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
          November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
          doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
          tomorrow.

          Regards,

          Qusai
          ____________________________________________________________
          You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
               governance at lists.cpsr.org
          To be removed from the list, send any message to:
               governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From hempalshrestha at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 11:21:09 2009
From: hempalshrestha at gmail.com (Hempal Shrestha)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:21:09 +0200
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <94B9E3DA38114BC2A084FCC74E15B1F6@shahzad>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>
	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>
	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
	 <4B001726.6060608@paque.net>
	 <94B9E3DA38114BC2A084FCC74E15B1F6@shahzad>
Message-ID: <bf5d709e0911150821x1e82ef17yd7049b08839179cf@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Shahzad and friends in ONI,

It indeed is an act of great concern on the commitment of the freedom of
expression. We stand united against this incident. Further, this should not
create an opportunity for others to hurt the good work that is happening at
IGF. So, +1 for the idea of registering the concern about the incident with
concerned stakeholders/authority.

In Solidarity.

Hempal Shrestha


On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net>wrote:

>  Dear Colleagues,
>
> Did discuss this with quite a few friends here and most of them agree for a
> joint action. How and what I don't know but probably civil
> society representatives speaking on the plenary can mention this appalling
> event and register the concern. Just a suggestion and then I will really
> suggest MAG members to take this up with IGF.
>
> But I would really urged on the caucus members attending IGF to take this
> up strongly otherwise, such things will keep happening more and more in
> future too.
>
> best wishes
> Shahzad
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>  *From:* Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
> *To:* governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org>
> *Cc:* McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:58 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
>
> I do not think a boycott is the answer. It removes the people who most
> object to the action... I think an effort should be made to bring this up as
> an issue. Can the IGC coordinate on this?
>
> Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
>
> On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote:
>
> Shahzad,
>
> Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get
> your books back immediately, with an apology.
>
> I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an
> increasingly large role in IG.
>
>
> +1
>
> Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop commitments
> organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the Secretariat know why?
>
> In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this appalling
> action.
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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From hempalshrestha at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 11:21:38 2009
From: hempalshrestha at gmail.com (Hempal Shrestha)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:21:38 +0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 
In-Reply-To: <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bf5d709e0911150821w3dec341dyc8b6ade8680c0638@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Qusai,

I am also planning to be there, but will be flying back on the same late
evening. So could you confirm the timing?

Best Regards,

Hempal Shrestha

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Jean-Yves GATETE <gate.one205 at yahoo.fr>wrote:

> Dear Qusai,
>
> Hope I will make it there,count me.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jean-Yves GATETE
>
> --- En date de : *Dim 15.11.09, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>* a
> écrit :
>
>
> De: Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
> Objet: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
> À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Date: Dimanche 15 Novembre 2009, 16h56
>
>
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> Qusai
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org<http://mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>
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>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
>
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov 15 11:35:13 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <bf5d709e0911150821x1e82ef17yd7049b08839179cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <956021.12867.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Perhaps before you jump on such a bandwagon you should get the recording of the event. You should get more than one person (witnesses) account. Security anywhere is not prone to throw things on the floor. Why is no copy of the poster posted?
 
It is not that I am skeptical of being used by Harvard and Oxford publicists in order to get the word out or publish a paper or sell a book. Keep in mind the ONI group is not representative of the persons supposedly being wrongfully censored/filtered.  In fact I see no Tibetan or Chinese component to this Academic gathering of western intelligencia. Advocacy is touted on the website but I see no constituent that they are advocating for.
 
In fact I believe there is a UN policy against advertising for the sale of a commodity, service or goods at the events.  A poster promoting a book would be in violation of a very good rule.

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Shahzad Ahmad" <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
Cc: "Ginger Paque" <gpaque at gmail.com>, "Jeremy Malcolm" <jeremy at ciroap.org>, "McTim" <dogwallah at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 4:21 PM



Dear Shahzad and friends in ONI, 

It indeed is an act of great concern on the commitment of the freedom of expression. We stand united against this incident. Further, this should not create an opportunity for others to hurt the good work that is happening at IGF. So, +1 for the idea of registering the concern about the incident with concerned stakeholders/authority.   

In Solidarity.

Hempal Shrestha



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:



Dear Colleagues,
 
Did discuss this with quite a few friends here and most of them agree for a joint action. How and what I don't know but probably civil society representatives speaking on the plenary can mention this appalling event and register the concern. Just a suggestion and then I will really suggest MAG members to take this up with IGF.
 
But I would really urged on the caucus members attending IGF to take this up strongly otherwise, such things will keep happening more and more in future too. 
 
best wishes
Shahzad




----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ginger Paque 
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Jeremy Malcolm 
Cc: McTim 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN

I do not think a boycott is the answer. It removes the people who most object to the action... I think an effort should be made to bring this up as an issue. Can the IGC coordinate on this?

Jeremy Malcolm wrote: 
On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote: 


Shahzad, 

Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get 
your books back immediately, with an apology. 

I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an 
increasingly large role in IG. 

+1 

Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop commitments organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the Secretariat know why? 

In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this appalling action. 






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From nhklein at gmx.net  Sun Nov 15 11:43:12 2009
From: nhklein at gmx.net (Norbert Klein)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:43:12 +0200
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <956021.12867.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <956021.12867.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B002FA0.4080608@gmx.net>

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From goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au  Sun Nov 15 11:51:35 2009
From: goldstein_david at yahoo.com.au (David Goldstein)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:51:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <bf5d709e0911150821x1e82ef17yd7049b08839179cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>  <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>  <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>  <4B001726.6060608@paque.net>  <94B9E3DA38114BC2A084FCC74E15B1F6@shahzad> <bf5d709e0911150821x1e82ef17yd7049b08839179cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <777571.67800.qm@web58905.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Are these crocodile tears? Did anyone expect anything else in Egypt?

“Egypt’s legitimacy to host such a meeting is questionable as it has repeatedly been guilty of violations of online free expression,” Reporters Without Borders said. “It is astonishing that a government that is openly hostile to Internet users is assigned the organisation of an international meeting on the Internet’s future.”
http://www.rsf.org/Violator-of-online-free-expression.html

If people on this list expected anything but they were very deluded. Reporters Without Borders obviously knew what to expect.

David




________________________________
From: Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
Cc: Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>; Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org>; McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, 16 November, 2009 3:21:09 AM
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN


Dear Shahzad and friends in ONI, 

It indeed is an act of great concern on the commitment of the freedom of expression. We stand united against this incident. Further, this should not create an opportunity for others to hurt the good work that is happening at IGF. So, +1 for the idea of registering the concern about the incident with concerned stakeholders/authority.   

In Solidarity.

Hempal Shrestha



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>Dear Colleagues,
> 
>Did discuss this with quite a few friends here and 
>most of them agree for a joint action. How and what I don't know 
>but probably civil society representatives speaking on the 
>plenary can mention this appalling event and register the concern. Just a 
>suggestion and then I will really suggest MAG members to take this up with 
>IGF.
> 
>But I would really urged on the caucus members 
>attending IGF to take this up strongly otherwise, such things will keep 
>happening more and more in future too. 
> 
>best wishes
>Shahzad
>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>From: Ginger Paque 
>>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Jeremy Malcolm 
>>Cc: McTim 
>>Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:58 
>>  PM
>>Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is 
>>  for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
>>
>>I do not think a boycott is the answer. It 
>>  removes the people who most object to the action... I think an effort should 
>>  be made to bring this up as an issue. Can the IGC coordinate on 
>>  this?
>>
>>Jeremy Malcolm wrote: 
>> 
>>On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>>Shahzad, 
>>>>
>>>>Truly outrageous, your group 
>>>>      should really complain to Markus and get 
>>>>your books back immediately, 
>>>>      with an apology. 
>>>>
>>>>I think this shows how misguided it is to have 
>>>>      gov'ts play an 
>>>>increasingly large role in IG. 
>>>>
>>>+1 
>>> 
>>>
>>>Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop 
>>>    commitments organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the Secretariat 
>>>    know why? 
>>>
>>>In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog 
>>>    about this appalling action. 
>>>
>>>
________________________________

>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>You 
>>  received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     
>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>To be removed from the list, send any message 
>>  to:
>>     
>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
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>>  functions, see:
>>     
>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>____________________________________________________________
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>>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
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>



      __________________________________________________________________________________
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
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From isolatedn at gmail.com  Sun Nov 15 12:01:20 2009
From: isolatedn at gmail.com (Sivasubramanian Muthusamy)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:01:20 +0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <C279D9CE80504726B116C8C3088DB74B@shahzad>
References: <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	 <C279D9CE80504726B116C8C3088DB74B@shahzad>
Message-ID: <fecfce260911150901p13d1dc65xcadf956444bf4999@mail.gmail.com>

I will join.

Thanks.

Sivasubramanian Muthusamy




On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net>wrote:

>  me too... count me in.
>
> best wishes
> Shahzad
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Jean-Yves GATETE <gate.one205 at yahoo.fr>
> *To:* governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:10 PM
> *Subject:* Re : [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November
> 18,2009
>
>   Dear Qusai,
>
> Hope I will make it there,count me.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jean-Yves GATETE
>
> --- En date de : *Dim 15.11.09, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>* a
> écrit :
>
>
> De: Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
> Objet: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
> À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Date: Dimanche 15 Novembre 2009, 16h56
>
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> Qusai
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org<http://mc/compose?to=governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>
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>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>
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From guru at itforchange.net  Sun Nov 15 11:59:56 2009
From: guru at itforchange.net (=?UTF-8?B?R3VydSDgpJfgpYHgpLDgpYE=?=)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:59:56 +0200
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad> <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com> <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <4B00338C.3030207@itforchange.net>

This is a very serious issue and needs a strong protest ... else it will 
send a message that such censorship is OK.
The lines that were objected to could have been said by a speaker in a 
workshop ... this is quite an arbitrary action.

We should write a protest note from civil society to both the IGF 
organizer and the local host/organizer asking them for an explanation of 
incident.

regards
Guru

 Malcolm wrote:
> On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote:
>
>> Shahzad,
>>
>> Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get
>> your books back immediately, with an apology.
>>
>> I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an
>> increasingly large role in IG.
>
> +1
>
> Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop 
> commitments organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the 
> Secretariat know why?
>
> In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this 
> appalling action.
>

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Sun Nov 15 12:34:42 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:34:42 +0500
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
References: <956021.12867.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D6EFC5CDF174C91B2466437912E1A82@shahzad>

Dear Eric and colleagues,

Following links host the video evidence of what happened there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-kxYt2LwKc

and

http://www.youtube.com/user/fikratube#p/a/u/0/axMpYddEomc

You may also like to take a look at this:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/y9y3mua

Will get the jpeg of poster and post it here though I don't know if list allows the attachments.

best wishes and regards

Shahzad

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eric Dierker 
  To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Hempal Shrestha ; Shahzad Ahmad 
  Cc: Ginger Paque ; Jeremy Malcolm ; McTim 
  Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN


        Perhaps before you jump on such a bandwagon you should get the recording of the event. You should get more than one person (witnesses) account. Security anywhere is not prone to throw things on the floor. Why is no copy of the poster posted?

        It is not that I am skeptical of being used by Harvard and Oxford publicists in order to get the word out or publish a paper or sell a book. Keep in mind the ONI group is not representative of the persons supposedly being wrongfully censored/filtered.  In fact I see no Tibetan or Chinese component to this Academic gathering of western intelligencia. Advocacy is touted on the website but I see no constituent that they are advocating for.

        In fact I believe there is a UN policy against advertising for the sale of a commodity, service or goods at the events.  A poster promoting a book would be in violation of a very good rule.

        --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com> wrote:


          From: Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>
          Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
          To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Shahzad Ahmad" <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
          Cc: "Ginger Paque" <gpaque at gmail.com>, "Jeremy Malcolm" <jeremy at ciroap.org>, "McTim" <dogwallah at gmail.com>
          Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 4:21 PM


          Dear Shahzad and friends in ONI, 

          It indeed is an act of great concern on the commitment of the freedom of expression. We stand united against this incident. Further, this should not create an opportunity for others to hurt the good work that is happening at IGF. So, +1 for the idea of registering the concern about the incident with concerned stakeholders/authority.   

          In Solidarity.

          Hempal Shrestha



          On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:

            Dear Colleagues,

            Did discuss this with quite a few friends here and most of them agree for a joint action. How and what I don't know but probably civil society representatives speaking on the plenary can mention this appalling event and register the concern. Just a suggestion and then I will really suggest MAG members to take this up with IGF.

            But I would really urged on the caucus members attending IGF to take this up strongly otherwise, such things will keep happening more and more in future too. 

            best wishes
            Shahzad
              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: Ginger Paque 
              To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Jeremy Malcolm 
              Cc: McTim 
              Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:58 PM
              Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN


              I do not think a boycott is the answer. It removes the people who most object to the action... I think an effort should be made to bring this up as an issue. Can the IGC coordinate on this?

              Jeremy Malcolm wrote: 
                On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote: 


                  Shahzad, 

                  Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get 
                  your books back immediately, with an apology. 

                  I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an 
                  increasingly large role in IG. 


                +1 

                Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop commitments organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the Secretariat know why? 

                In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this appalling action. 



------------------------------------------------------------------

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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov 15 12:49:22 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:49:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <4B002FA0.4080608@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <14978.53577.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Your points prove mine. We know nothing about this yet. Either the first reports were vague intentionally or reflected an inability to perceive. No production of the offending poster. I understand it to be an advertisement--banned for good reason.
 
As to your superfulous attack on my history. Jailed and beaten in Paris,France in Protest, Puebla, Mexico in Protest and a still pending in a SE asian country for literature banned by the regime.* US jailed for writing and distributing a newspaper promoting womens access to choice and services. You who hide in five star hotels and attend airconditioned conferences would do well not to venture into my world..
 
*Ironic on that one, it had to do with filterbusting software - generally communists disagree with such stuff.

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Norbert Klein <nhklein at gmx.net> wrote:


From: Norbert Klein <nhklein at gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
To: "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Hempal Shrestha" <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>, "Shahzad Ahmad" <shahzad at bytesforall.net>, "Ginger Paque" <gpaque at gmail.com>, "Jeremy Malcolm" <jeremy at ciroap.org>, "McTim" <dogwallah at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 4:43 PM


Eric Dierker wrote: 





Perhaps before you jump on such a bandwagon you should get the recording of the event. You should get more than one person (witnesses) account. Security anywhere is not prone to throw things on the floor. Why is no copy of the poster posted?
 
It is not that I am skeptical of being used by Harvard and Oxford publicists in order to get the word out or publish a paper or sell a book. Keep in mind the ONI group is not representative of the persons supposedly being wrongfully censored/filtered.  In fact I see no Tibetan or Chinese component to this Academic gathering of western intelligencia. Advocacy is touted on the website but I see no constituent that they are advocating for.You are so over-simplistic. Probably you have never been in a difficult situation, or really related to people who are.






 
In fact I believe there is a UN policy against advertising for the sale of a commodity, service or goods at the events.  A poster promoting a book would be in violation of a very good rule.
Who told you this was an advertisement to sell a commodity? Surely not somebody who was there.


Norbert KIein
normally in Cambodia, now in Sharm el Sheikh


-- 
If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit
The Mirror, a regular review of the Cambodian language press in English.

This is the latest weekly editorial of the Mirror:

Cambodian-Thai Relations – Present and Former Prime Ministers 
Sunday, 8.11.2009

http://tinyurl.com/yfuswkm

(To read it, click on the line above.)

And here is something new every day:
http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov 15 13:02:49 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:02:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <8D6EFC5CDF174C91B2466437912E1A82@shahzad>
Message-ID: <223102.10708.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Awesome dude  --  regardless of content, I salute you. Pushing forward. All the hallowed halls and all the list rules and all the self promotion and grandiosity are paled by your fortitude. I threw at you a challenge and you have arizen. It is not words that fill the sails of good people on their journey in uncharted territory it is action and leadership. Stand tall, stand proud and most of all, stand for all those who cannot.
 
Please keep us keenly and publicly aware of your movements and activities. Through time we have found that day light and transparency will prohibit the strongest of vermon from acting or growing.  No matter the perfection of your rights in this matter.  The bringing to the forum questionable activity will make others, or the same, think twice about taking steps further to quelch and censor good honest discussion. 
 
Respectful Human Interface is not so much the challenge of political correctness or systems and telesystems management as it is the protection of honesty and stating one's opinion honestly is the very core veracity and the freedom of press and speech.
 
Namaste

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:


From: Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
To: "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Hempal Shrestha" <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>
Cc: "Ginger Paque" <gpaque at gmail.com>, "Jeremy Malcolm" <jeremy at ciroap.org>, "McTim" <dogwallah at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 5:34 PM





Dear Eric and colleagues,
 
Following links host the video evidence of what happened there.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-kxYt2LwKc
 
and
 
http://www.youtube.com/user/fikratube#p/a/u/0/axMpYddEomc
 
You may also like to take a look at this:
 
http://preview.tinyurl.com/y9y3mua
 
Will get the jpeg of poster and post it here though I don't know if list allows the attachments.
 
best wishes and regards
 
Shahzad
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Eric Dierker 
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Hempal Shrestha ; Shahzad Ahmad 
Cc: Ginger Paque ; Jeremy Malcolm ; McTim 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN






Perhaps before you jump on such a bandwagon you should get the recording of the event. You should get more than one person (witnesses) account. Security anywhere is not prone to throw things on the floor. Why is no copy of the poster posted?
 
It is not that I am skeptical of being used by Harvard and Oxford publicists in order to get the word out or publish a paper or sell a book. Keep in mind the ONI group is not representative of the persons supposedly being wrongfully censored/filtered.  In fact I see no Tibetan or Chinese component to this Academic gathering of western intelligencia. Advocacy is touted on the website but I see no constituent that they are advocating for.
 
In fact I believe there is a UN policy against advertising for the sale of a commodity, service or goods at the events.  A poster promoting a book would be in violation of a very good rule.

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Shahzad Ahmad" <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
Cc: "Ginger Paque" <gpaque at gmail.com>, "Jeremy Malcolm" <jeremy at ciroap.org>, "McTim" <dogwallah at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 4:21 PM



Dear Shahzad and friends in ONI, 

It indeed is an act of great concern on the commitment of the freedom of expression. We stand united against this incident. Further, this should not create an opportunity for others to hurt the good work that is happening at IGF. So, +1 for the idea of registering the concern about the incident with concerned stakeholders/authority.   

In Solidarity.

Hempal Shrestha



On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:



Dear Colleagues,
 
Did discuss this with quite a few friends here and most of them agree for a joint action. How and what I don't know but probably civil society representatives speaking on the plenary can mention this appalling event and register the concern. Just a suggestion and then I will really suggest MAG members to take this up with IGF.
 
But I would really urged on the caucus members attending IGF to take this up strongly otherwise, such things will keep happening more and more in future too. 
 
best wishes
Shahzad




----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ginger Paque 
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Jeremy Malcolm 
Cc: McTim 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN

I do not think a boycott is the answer. It removes the people who most object to the action... I think an effort should be made to bring this up as an issue. Can the IGC coordinate on this?

Jeremy Malcolm wrote: 
On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote: 


Shahzad, 

Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get 
your books back immediately, with an apology. 

I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an 
increasingly large role in IG. 

+1 

Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop commitments organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the Secretariat know why? 

In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this appalling action. 






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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov 15 14:06:31 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:06:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Boycott and protest Planning IGC dinner on
 Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <fecfce260911150901p13d1dc65xcadf956444bf4999@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161814.1408.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Hfere is where a statement opposing business as usual should be made.  One night at these hotels and at these luxury dining places would pay for 100s of internet capable laptops for Tibetans and Chinese.  If Governance is to be from the top down so be it.  If it is to be from the bottom up and inclusive of developing nations and disadvantaged individuals then this is where the protests need begin -- by those who would attend such galas and white tableclothed officianados spouting human rights.  Norbert Klein challenges my right to speak because I have never wanted???  These people do not even grasp the difference between their "wants" and most people's "needs".

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy <isolatedn at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Sivasubramanian Muthusamy <isolatedn at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Shahzad Ahmad" <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 5:01 PM



I will join.

Thanks.

Sivasubramanian Muthusamy





On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:



me too... count me in. 
 
best wishes
Shahzad
 




----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jean-Yves GATETE 
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Qusai AlShatti 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:10 PM
Subject: Re : [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009





Dear Qusai,

Hope I will make it there,count me.

Best regards,

Jean-Yves GATETE

--- En date de : Dim 15.11.09, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com> a écrit :


De: Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
Objet: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Dimanche 15 Novembre 2009, 16h56


Dear All:
A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
tomorrow.

Regards,

Qusai
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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 15:23:46 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:23:46 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa?
Message-ID: <1162422.1258316626537.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 15:27:25 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:27:25 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Boycott and protest Planning IGC dinner on
Message-ID: <23471314.1258316846167.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 15:33:16 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:33:16 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
Message-ID: <16137033.1258317196794.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 15:38:42 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:38:42 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
Message-ID: <25173197.1258317522394.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 15:47:55 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:47:55 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
Message-ID: <894138.1258318075137.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 16:02:31 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:02:31 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] Required reading?: James Bamford: "Who's in Big
 Brother's Database?"
Message-ID: <1138024.1258318952245.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  Perhaps this should be required reading for all IGF members,
and for that matter any and all Internet users/stakeholders?

  I know I will be picking up a copy very soon!

See:http://www.nybooks.com/articles/23231

Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 16:20:43 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:20:43 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] TAKE ACTION: Support the Madrid Privacy
Message-ID: <9089890.1258320043387.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Ginger and all,

  In sprit this Declaration is fairly good, but not good enough.
Simply "Urging" governments to uphold basic privacy rights of 
individuals and their generated personal data doesn't go or
express nearly strongly enough such a basic right.  Rather
"Demanding" that such rights when articulated in detail, is a far
more effective message to send to the respective governments and
government leaders.  INEGroup has done so, and did so back in 2002.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Katitza Rodriguez <katitza at datos-personales.org>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 5:54 AM
>To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>Cc: Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>Subject: [governance] TAKE ACTION: Support the Madrid Privacy Declaration
>
>
>Dear colleagues:
>
>PLEASE TAKE ACTION: Support the Madrid Privacy Declaration
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Civil society groups and privacy experts are urging countries around
>the world to safeguard privacy, a fundamental human right.
>
>Governments and corporations are gathering too much information on
>individuals, with too few protections. New systems of identification,
>tracking and surveillance threaten the rights of citizens and consumers.
>
>At the recent meeting of privacy officials in Madrid, a  declaration
>was issued that reaffirmed basic privacy laws, identified new
>challenges, and recommended concrete actions. The Madrid Privacy
>Declaration is an important document that  makes affirmative
>recommendations.
>
>Now the Madrid Privacy Declaration is open for signature to
>individuals around the world. And we need your support!
>Go to this page for information about how to endorse:
>
>http://www.thepublicvoice.org/madrid-declaration/
>
>To learn more about privacy and the recent civil society  conference
>in Madrid:
>
>http://www.thepublicvoice.org/events/madrid09/
>
>Please send your endorsement to privacy at datos-personales.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
>For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com  Sun Nov 15 16:34:03 2009
From: jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey A. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:34:03 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [governance] UDRP abuse?: FreeCreditReport.com Wins 1,017 Domains
 By UDRP
Message-ID: <32126481.1258320843457.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

All,

  The uglyness or the UDRP rises again, or is this a justified
result?  You be the judge.  When you have decided, let your
governmental representative know, and by all means notify the
UN and ICANN officials whom created the UDRP accordingly.

  Frankly at a minimum I find this dicision at least intelectually
offensive.

See:http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=09/11/13/205210

http://aliasencore.com/p502/freecreditreportcom-wins-1017-domains-in-largest-ever-udrp.html
largest domain dispute case since the Uniform Domain-Name Dispute 
Resolution Policy (UDRP) was enacted ten years ago has been decided. 
The decision saw 1,017 cyber-squatting domains turned over to 
ConsumerInfo.com, owner of FreeCreditReport.com. The 
http://domains.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/1283469.htm full decision 
can be read via the National Arbitration Forum website. "It would 
seem that this decision sets or reinforces a fairly strong precedent 
that trademark holders may be entitled to, not only to the domain name 
that exactly matches their trademark, but also to a wide swath of 
other domain names including nearly every possible misspelling or 
other variation of that trademark, potentially even if the trademark 
is comprised of generic words."




Regards,

Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
   Abraham Lincoln

"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt

"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
Phone: 214-244-4827

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From karl at cavebear.com  Sun Nov 15 18:11:25 2009
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:11:25 -0800
Subject: [governance] What happened?
Message-ID: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com>


News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at the 
IGF because it violated some UN rule about China.

We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much news 
out here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a 
sentence violated some rule or another.

Anyone have more details?

		--karl--

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From wcurrie at apc.org  Mon Nov 16 00:20:21 2009
From: wcurrie at apc.org (Willie Currie)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:20:21 -0500
Subject: [governance] Request for extending comments on IGF review
Message-ID: <4B00E115.5020602@apc.org>

Hi all

We learned during the IGC meeting on Saturday that the number of 
speakers at the Stocktaking session would be limited and that 
governments would have precedence. Other stakeholders were asked to 
cluster their inputs. At the MAG meeting on Saturday, it was made clear 
that the UN secretariat would be running the session and would not take 
comments after the session. Written comments can be made up to the session.

Because of these limitations I propose that we should make a request for 
an additional three week comment period in the IGC statement to the 
Stocktaking session. It's unclear if APC will be able to speak, but if 
we can, we will make a similar request. We should also encourage other 
academic and CS speakers to do the same. I understand ICC Basis will 
also include a similar request.

Willie
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Mon Nov 16 00:21:53 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:21:53 +0500
Subject: [governance] The end of IGF? Mulling on its point and pointlessness.
Message-ID: <86975D706AC34B6E817E9FDC38E69C2C@shahzad>

An excellent piece by genderIT.org team covers quite a few interesting points reflecting on the first day of IGF 09.

http://www.genderit.org/en/index.shtml?apc=f--e--1&x=96347

best wishes and regards

Shahzad
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Mon Nov 16 01:59:29 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:59:29 +1100
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <8D6EFC5CDF174C91B2466437912E1A82@shahzad>
Message-ID: <C7274381.7FDE%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

I have been trying to find out exactly what happened here and a lot of the
media reports are wildly inaccurate. What people who were there believe to
be the cease is roughly as follows.

The Chinese Government did complain about a poster in a public area. If it
had been inside the door instead of outside the door, there would have been
no issue that the security police apparently felt compelled to act on.

The workshop went ahead as planned after the dispute about the poster.

One person who was fortunately present during the whole event was (I may
have the title wrong here) was the UN Under Secretary for Freedom of
Expression. He has requested a full report on the incident from the IGF
Secretariat.

It is not clear who exactly the Chinese complaint was to. It was not to the
host country, the Chinese know that¹s not the appropriate way to do things.
It would appear that the complaint may have been direct to the UN Security
Unit who have travelled to all the IGFs and work closely with the
Secretariat. Whether the Secretariat proper had any strong role in the
decision is unknown to me and to those close to the event.

The other thing I have just learnt is that there was a Chinese objection to
the event taking place well before this incident and before IGF at all.  It
should not be surprising to anyone that the Chinese complained or that the
Secretariat properly ruled the workshop should go ahead. This then might be
an incident in response to that ruling ­ but I don¹t know.

However, as regards action ­ I am about to write to Markus Kummer on behalf
of the Caucus and express our concerns about the incident and ask if he can
give any further information about the restrictive action and its rationale.
That doesn¹t preclude any other action but I think we should seek more
information as to why the action was taken before going much further.
Hopefully they will respond quickly.

Ian Peter


On 16/11/09 4:34 AM, "Shahzad Ahmad" <shahzad at bytesforall.net> wrote:

> Dear Eric and colleagues,
>  
> Following links host the video evidence of what happened there.
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-kxYt2LwKc
>  
> and
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/user/fikratube#p/a/u/0/axMpYddEomc
>  
> You may also like to take a look at this:
>  
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/y9y3mua
>  
> Will get the jpeg of poster and post it here though I don't know if list
> allows the attachments.
>  
> best wishes and regards
>  
> Shahzad
>  
>>  
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  
>> From:  Eric Dierker <mailto:cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>
>>  
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; Hempal  Shrestha
>> <mailto:hempalshrestha at gmail.com>  ; Shahzad Ahmad
>> <mailto:shahzad at bytesforall.net>
>>  
>> Cc: Ginger Paque <mailto:gpaque at gmail.com>  ; Jeremy Malcolm
>> <mailto:jeremy at ciroap.org>  ; McTim <mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com>
>>  
>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:35  PM
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [governance] What IGF is  for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
>>  
>> 
>>    
>>   Perhaps before you jump on such a bandwagon you should get the  recording
>> of the event. You should get more than one person (witnesses)  account.
>> Security anywhere is not prone to throw things on the floor.  Why is no copy
>> of the poster posted?
>>   
>>  It is not that I am skeptical of being used by Harvard and Oxford
>> publicists in order to get the word out or publish a paper or sell a  book.
>> Keep in mind the ONI group is not representative of the persons  supposedly
>> being wrongfully censored/filtered.  In fact I see no  Tibetan or Chinese
>> component to this Academic gathering of western  intelligencia. Advocacy is
>> touted on the website but I see no  constituent that they are advocating for.
>>   
>>  In fact I believe there is a UN policy against advertising for the  sale of
>> a commodity, service or goods at the events.  A poster  promoting a book
>> would be in violation of a very good rule.
>> 
>> ---  On Sun, 11/15/09, Hempal Shrestha  <hempalshrestha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  
>>> 
>>> From:  Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re:  [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
>>> To:  governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Shahzad Ahmad"  <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
>>> Cc: "Ginger Paque"  <gpaque at gmail.com>, "Jeremy Malcolm"
>>> <jeremy at ciroap.org>,  "McTim" <dogwallah at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Sunday, November 15,  2009, 4:21 PM
>>> 
>>>   Dear Shahzad and friends in ONI,
>>> 
>>> It indeed is an  act of great concern on the commitment of the freedom of
>>> expression.  We stand united against this incident. Further, this should not
>>> create  an opportunity for others to hurt the good work that is happening at
>>> IGF. So, +1 for the idea of registering the concern about the incident  with
>>> concerned stakeholders/authority.
>>> 
>>> In  Solidarity.
>>> 
>>> Hempal Shrestha
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Shahzad Ahmad  <shahzad at bytesforall.net
>>> <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shahzad at bytesforall.net> >
>>> wrote:
>>>  
>>>>   Dear Colleagues,
>>>>   
>>>>  Did discuss this with quite a few  friends here and most of them agree for
>>>> a joint action. How and what  I don't know but probably civil society
>>>> representatives  speaking on the plenary can mention this appalling event
>>>> and  register the concern. Just a suggestion and then I will really
>>>> suggest MAG members to take this up with IGF.
>>>>   
>>>>  But I would really urged on the caucus  members attending IGF to take this
>>>> up strongly otherwise, such  things will keep happening more and more in
>>>> future too. 
>>>>   
>>>>  best wishes
>>>>  Shahzad
>>>>  
>>>>>   
>>>>>   -----  Original Message -----
>>>>>  From:  Ginger Paque
>>>>> <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gpaque at gmail.com>
>>>>>  To:  governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>>>>> ; Jeremy Malcolm
>>>>> <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jeremy at ciroap.org>
>>>>>  Cc:  McTim 
>>>>> <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dogwallah at gmail.com>
>>>>>  Sent:  Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:58 PM
>>>>>  Subject:  Re: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by  UN
>>>>>  
>>>>> I do not think a boycott is the  answer. It removes the people who most
>>>>> object to the action... I  think an effort should be made to bring this up
>>>>> as an issue. Can  the IGC coordinate on this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Shahzad, 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Truly outrageous,  your group should really complain to Markus and get
>>>>>>> your  books back immediately, with an apology.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think this  shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an
>>>>>>> increasingly large role in IG.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have  workshop commitments
>>>>>> organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and  let the Secretariat know
>>>>>> why? 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In any case, I hope as  many people will tweet and blog about this
>>>>>> appalling action.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> You  received this message as a subscriber on the  list:
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>>>>> <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>>>>> To  be removed from the list, send any message  to:
>>>>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> <http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance-unsubscribe at lists
>>>>> .cpsr.org> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> For  all list information and functions,  see:
>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>> 
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Inline  Attachment Follows-----
>>> 
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From divina.meigs at orange.fr  Mon Nov 16 02:12:58 2009
From: divina.meigs at orange.fr (Divina MEIGS)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:12:58 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4784951.114552.1258355578131.JavaMail.www@wwinf2219>




> Message du 15/11/09 16:57
> De : "Qusai AlShatti" 
> A : governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Copie à : 
> Objet : [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
> 
> 
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Qusai
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> 
> 
good idea
i'd be willing
divina


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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Mon Nov 16 02:24:44 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:24:44 +1100
Subject: [governance] Request for extending comments on IGF review
In-Reply-To: <4B00E115.5020602@apc.org>
Message-ID: <C727496C.7FE8%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

I think IGC should endorse this request. What do others think? As discussed
at our meeting, this review session appears as if it will not hear all
viewpoints people want to express and the extra comment period would allow
this to be redressed in some way.


On 16/11/09 4:20 PM, "Willie Currie" <wcurrie at apc.org> wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> We learned during the IGC meeting on Saturday that the number of
> speakers at the Stocktaking session would be limited and that
> governments would have precedence. Other stakeholders were asked to
> cluster their inputs. At the MAG meeting on Saturday, it was made clear
> that the UN secretariat would be running the session and would not take
> comments after the session. Written comments can be made up to the session.
> 
> Because of these limitations I propose that we should make a request for
> an additional three week comment period in the IGC statement to the
> Stocktaking session. It's unclear if APC will be able to speak, but if
> we can, we will make a similar request. We should also encourage other
> academic and CS speakers to do the same. I understand ICC Basis will
> also include a similar request.
> 
> Willie
> ____________________________________________________________
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From tracyhackshaw at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 03:00:29 2009
From: tracyhackshaw at gmail.com (Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:00:29 -0400
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November
In-Reply-To: <bf5d709e0911150821w3dec341dyc8b6ade8680c0638@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	 <bf5d709e0911150821w3dec341dyc8b6ade8680c0638@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <808a83f60911160000oadc2f9cpf8919c33e7faabaa@mail.gmail.com>

I think Wed might be tough for us since many are checking out at noon or
thereabouts and flying out of Sharm late Wed. p.m.

Any chance of Ne'ama Bay on Tuesday p.m. instead?

Maybe around 8 p.m.?

Best,

Tracy

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Hempal Shrestha
<hempalshrestha at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Qusai,
>
> I am also planning to be there, but will be flying back on the same late
> evening. So could you confirm the timing?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Hempal Shrestha
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Jean-Yves GATETE <gate.one205 at yahoo.fr>wrote:
>
>>   Dear Qusai,
>>
>> Hope I will make it there,count me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Jean-Yves GATETE
>>
>> --- En date de : *Dim 15.11.09, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>* a
>> écrit :
>>
>>
>> De: Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
>> Objet: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
>> À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Date: Dimanche 15 Novembre 2009, 16h56
>>
>>
>> Dear All:
>> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
>> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
>> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Qusai
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org<http://mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org<http://mc/compose?to=governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>>
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>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From glaser at nic.br  Mon Nov 16 03:07:56 2009
From: glaser at nic.br (Hartmut Richard Glaser)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:07:56 -0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B01085C.6050000@nic.br>

+1

Qusai AlShatti wrote:
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> Qusai
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>   
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From wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de  Mon Nov 16 03:05:48 2009
From: wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Kleinw=E4chter=2C_Wolfgang=22?=)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:05:48 +0100
Subject: [governance] ICANN NomCom
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
 <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
 <bf5d709e0911150821w3dec341dyc8b6ade8680c0638@mail.gmail.com>
 <808a83f60911160000oadc2f9cpf8919c33e7faabaa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:  <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197B0@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>

There is an ICANN Nomination Committee (NomCom) Outreach meeting on Tuesday, 1.15 p.m. in the Room 6 (Biblioteca Alexandria) with ICANNs CEO Rod Beckstroem, and three ICANN Directors (Katim Toure, Jean Jacque Subrenat, George Sadowsky). Please join.
 
wolfgang
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From nyangkweagien at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 03:12:45 2009
From: nyangkweagien at gmail.com (Nyangkwe Agien Aaron)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:12:45 +0100
Subject: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa?
In-Reply-To: <1162422.1258316626537.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <1162422.1258316626537.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a6bc8cb30911160012n509789eai67eff5ce4feca265@mail.gmail.com>

Jeffrey wrote

Ergo expecting assistance from the west as you suggest may be a slippery
slope and not generate the kind of assistance you seem to be asking for.

My appeal is to the international community as a whole and not only the
West.That is calling for a win-win collaboration. As an African I can tell
you that we are already to the fill with the "West". You can name SAPs,
Democracy proclaimed at the door and, dictatorship and profligacy whispered
through the window. You can say like De gaulle that "in international
relations there are no permanent friends but permanent interest".

Finally, I agree with you that we have to solve our ligitimacy problems
ourselves as nothing could be expected from the "West"

But we expect an outcry from the international community when a Western
country (France) destroy the Airforce of an independent country (Côte
d'Ivoire) or teleguide what is now known as the polgrom of Dada Camara's
Guinea because contracts are awarded to China

Warmly

Aaron

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jeffrey A. Williams <jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
> wrote:

>  Nyangkwe and all,
>
>
>
>   Unfortunately many in the west face the same ligitimacy considerations
> but perhaps to a lessor
>
> degree, as you articulate is being faced or recognized in Africa.  Ergo
> expecting assistance
>
> from the west as you suggest may be a slippery slope and not generate the
> kind of assistance
>
> you seem to be asking for.
>
>
>
>   This said, Africa will need to solve it's own governmental ligitimacy
> problems and expect little
>
> to no significant positive help from the west.  Perhaps the EU can aid
> Africa in this regard, but
>
> again some of the same ligitimacy problems exist or are precieved in the EU
> as well.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron
> Sent: Nov 15, 2009 3:21 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, Lohento Ken
> Subject: Re: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa?
>
> Hi All
>
> Thanks Ken for the research
>
> However:
>
> The involvement of the academia is laking, as well that of regional
> economic organizations (ECOWAS, SADC, etc.), maybe because governments seems
> less interested in the process.
>
> This is due to the fact nearly all the governments of the regions are
> illigitimate and have less concern for issues that concern those governed
>
> The mandate of the Forum (which is not seen as a space for solutions that
> Africa is urgently longing for), due to the basic access to ICT needs and to
> the crucial need to strengthen internet governance on the continent,
>
> You hit the nail square Ken.
> Capacity building is what is mostly needed here. Internet access dispite
> the availability of a down stream optical fibre that is not optimally
> exploited (nobody know why, may be reason is due my remarks above)
> May I say that after a Marshall plan to rebuild Europe after the second
> world war, we need an ICT plan for Africa that includes AN EFFECTIVE ROUTING
> OUT OF ILLIGIMATE GOVERNMENTS SUPPORTED BY THE WEST.
>
> Best regards
>
> Aaron
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Lohento Ken <lohento at oridev.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> One the eve of Egypt 2009, for your info, this article I wrote on the IGF
>> and Africa - in French however, but please find a summary in English below -
>> our list/caucus is somehow concerned - comments welcome - Regards KL
>>
>> The Internet Governance Forum: what does it mean for Africa? - Octobre
>> 2009 - working document in French - Download here
>> http://www.iafric.net/benin/gouvernanceinternet.html
>>
>> SUMMARY
>>
>> This article seeks to understand the representation and interest of the
>> IGF process within the African ICT community, and to give illustrations of
>> its eventual impact. To do this, we, primarily, have analyzed exchanges on
>> two key discussion lists on which African views on Internet governance are
>> conveyed. To complement and validate if necessary observations, we have
>> consulted some documents produced by some players and have questioned
>> others. We have also based conclusions on our observation of the process
>> since its launch in 2006.
>>
>> The two lists analyzed are a panAfrican list (the AfrICANN list, created
>> by the AfriNIC, the body responsible for managing IP and ASN addresses for
>> the continent) and an international list (the Governance list, a discussion
>> space for the international civil society Internet Governance Caucus). The
>> first space was analyzed during six months (November 2008 - April 2009) and
>> the second during a year (May 2008 - April 2009). These lists are two public
>> lists, the most relevant for our analysis. It has been observed only 7% of
>> contributions dealt with IGF on the AfrICANN in the period; this figure
>> shows an interest in the international process, but it is minimal, on a
>> space that gathered key African ICT governance players. However, as
>> contributions on other subjects discussed on the list illustrates, Internet
>> Governance as an issue is of a strong concern, specifically when it relates
>> to its consolidation in Africa. “Localising IGF” has then become a common
>> leitmotiv on the continent. From another point of view, 5.43% of the
>> Internet Governance Caucus list came from African subscribers during the
>> twelve months analyzed. This figure is at least below the continent's
>> presence on this space (about 10%). However, it has to be stressed that
>> Africa do contributes to life in this group at all levels, including during
>> development of contributions submitted to IGF. On both lists, the feeble
>> African participation that may be understood by several factors is
>> regretted, by African stakeholders themselves first of all, and calls for
>> reversing this trend are often made. All these conclusions are validated by
>> the observation of the whole process, the analysis of some written
>> productions and discussions with some key actors.
>>
>> A main conclusion after this research is that, although Africa contributes
>> and participates in IGF in different manners and for various reasons, its
>> interest in the international process is minimal; this is due to the mandate
>> of the Forum (which is not seen as a space for solutions that Africa is
>> urgently longing for), due to the basic access to ICT needs and to the
>> crucial need to strengthen internet governance on the continent, which is
>> seen as a greater priority. In addition, the involvement of the academia is
>> laking, as well that of regional economic organizations (ECOWAS, SADC,
>> etc.), maybe because governments seems less interested in the process. The
>> other main conclusion is that, capacity building for some African ICT
>> actors, and the increased awareness on the importance of the
>> multi-stakeholder approach in policy making the sector, are seen as the key
>> advantages gained from the international process.
>>
>> It is therefore crucial, in this period of mid-term “evaluation” of IGF,
>> and some days before its fourth annual meeting organized in Africa, that
>> mechanisms that support capacity building are strengthened and made more
>> visible, if further enhancing the importance of the international process in
>> the eyes of actors of the continent is an aim.
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
> Journalist-OutCome Mapper
> Special Assistant The President
> ASAFE
> P.O.Box 5213
> Douala-Cameroon
>
> Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
> Fax. 237 3342 29 70
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeffrey A. Williams
> Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
> "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
>    Abraham Lincoln
>
> "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
> often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt
>
> "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
> liability
> depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
> P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
> United States v. Carroll Towing  (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
> ===============================================================
> Updated 1/26/04
> CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
> Information Network Eng.  INEG. INC.
> ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail
> jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
> Phone: 214-244-4827
>
>


-- 
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
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From charityg at diplomacy.edu  Mon Nov 16 04:04:55 2009
From: charityg at diplomacy.edu (Charity Gamboa)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 03:04:55 -0600
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <4784951.114552.1258355578131.JavaMail.www@wwinf2219>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4784951.114552.1258355578131.JavaMail.www@wwinf2219>
Message-ID: <ad14556f0911160104l50429a39kf9906de6d14c15a2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Sorry I cannot make it to this dinner since I am leaving for the US already
on the evening of the 18th.  But would be glad to attend if given more time
to stay in Sharm.

Regards,
Charity

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Divina MEIGS <divina.meigs at orange.fr>wrote:

>
>
>
> > Message du 15/11/09 16:57
> > De : "Qusai AlShatti"
> > A : governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > Copie à :
> > Objet : [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
> >
> >
> > Dear All:
> > A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> > November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> > doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Qusai
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> > governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> > governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> > http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> >
> good idea
> i'd be willing
> divina
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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-- 

Student Alternatives Program, Inc - South Plains Academy
4008 Avenue R
Lubbock, Texas 79412
+1 (806) 744 0330
http://www.stdsapi.com/
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 04:05:24 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:05:24 +0500
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com>
References: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911160105i48dd0a33u4d74f21fffc709e@mail.gmail.com>

I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:

IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
By Rabia Garib
16 Nov 2009

KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.

According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.

The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."

"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.

Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
United Nations Human Rights Commission.

"We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
member of the ONI Network.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:
>
> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at the IGF
> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>
> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much news out
> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a sentence
> violated some rule or another.
>
> Anyone have more details?
>
>                --karl--
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 04:06:46 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:06:46 +0500
Subject: [governance] IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
Message-ID: <701af9f70911160106p31b12cefg7a443f85b46f88d3@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarded for information:

IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office:
http://www.mis-asia.com/news/articles/igf-2009-event-rattled-by-un-security-office

"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
By Rabia Garib

KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.

According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.

The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."

"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.

Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
United Nations Human Rights Commission.

"We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
member of the ONI Network.

-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance


From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Mon Nov 16 04:11:47 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:11:47 +0500
Subject: [governance] What happened?
References: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com> <701af9f70911160105i48dd0a33u4d74f21fffc709e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C041EF35EF094A08A8164D3CD7B6CF51@shahzad>

Dear Colleagues,

Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros Foundation or 
Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this event. ONI 
Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto 
University and Harvard in the US.

best wishes and regards
Shahzad

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?


I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:

IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
By Rabia Garib
16 Nov 2009

KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.

According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.

The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."

"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.

Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
United Nations Human Rights Commission.

"We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
member of the ONI Network.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:
>
> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at the IGF
> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>
> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much news 
> out
> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a 
> sentence
> violated some rule or another.
>
> Anyone have more details?
>
> --karl--
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance 

____________________________________________________________
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For all list information and functions, see:
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Mon Nov 16 04:16:17 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:16:17 +1100
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911160105i48dd0a33u4d74f21fffc709e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C7276391.8005%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Ive written to the Secretariat on behalf of IGC requesting further
information, but this appears to be a tit-for-tat incident because the IGF
Secretariat refused the Chinese request before the meeting to ban the
workshop altogether. But just to reiterate under this heading -

I have been trying to find out exactly what happened here and a lot of the
media reports are wildly inaccurate. What people who were there believe to
be the case is roughly as follows.

The Chinese Government did complain about a poster in a public area. If it
had been inside the door instead of outside the door, there would have been
no issue that the security police apparently felt compelled to act on.

The workshop went ahead as planned after the dispute about the poster.

One person who was fortunately present during the whole event was (I may
have the title wrong here) was the UN Under Secretary for Freedom of
Expression. He has requested a full report on the incident from the IGF
Secretariat.

It is not clear who exactly the Chinese complaint was to. It was not to the
host country, the Chinese know that¹s not the appropriate way to do things.
It would appear that the complaint may have been direct to the UN Security
Unit who have travelled to all the IGFs and work closely with the
Secretariat. Whether the Secretariat proper had any strong role in the
decision is unknown to me and to those close to the event.

The other thing I have just learnt is that there was a Chinese objection to
the event taking place well before this incident and before IGF at all.  It
should not be surprising to anyone that the Chinese complained or that the
Secretariat properly ruled the workshop should go ahead. This then might be
an incident in response to that ruling ­ but I don¹t know.

However, as regards action ­ I am about to write to Markus Kummer on behalf
of the Caucus and express our concerns about the incident and ask if he can
give any further information about the restrictive action and its rationale.
That doesn¹t preclude any other action but I think we should seek more
information as to why the action was taken before going much further.
Hopefully they will respond quickly.

Ian Peter


On 16/11/09 8:05 PM, "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
> 
> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
> By Rabia Garib
> 16 Nov 2009
> 
> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
> 
> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
> 
> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
> 
> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
> 
> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
> 
> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
> member of the ONI Network.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:
>> 
>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at the IGF
>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>> 
>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much news out
>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a sentence
>> violated some rule or another.
>> 
>> Anyone have more details?
>> 
>>                --karl--
>> 
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>> 
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>> 
> 
> 


____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From katitza at datos-personales.org  Mon Nov 16 04:22:43 2009
From: katitza at datos-personales.org (Katitza Rodriguez)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:22:43 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <C041EF35EF094A08A8164D3CD7B6CF51@shahzad>
References: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com> <701af9f70911160105i48dd0a33u4d74f21fffc709e@mail.gmail.com> <C041EF35EF094A08A8164D3CD7B6CF51@shahzad>
Message-ID: <CDF41084-6E27-4701-8033-948B23E1F3F3@datos-personales.org>

ONI means Open Net Initiative!

On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros  
> Foundation or
> Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this  
> event. ONI
> Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
> University and Harvard in the US.
>
> best wishes and regards
> Shahzad
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
>
>
> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
>
> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
> By Rabia Garib
> 16 Nov 2009
>
> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
>
> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
>
> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
>
> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>
> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
>
> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
> member of the ONI Network.
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com>  
> wrote:
>>
>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at  
>> the IGF
>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>>
>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much  
>> news
>> out
>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a
>> sentence
>> violated some rule or another.
>>
>> Anyone have more details?
>>
>> --karl--
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> ICT4D & Internet Governance
> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
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From mueller at syr.edu  Mon Nov 16 04:22:22 2009
From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:22:22 -0500
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <C7274381.7FDE%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <8D6EFC5CDF174C91B2466437912E1A82@shahzad>
 <C7274381.7FDE%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <75822E125BCB994F8446858C4B19F0D790FD17F7@SUEX07-MBX-04.ad.syr.edu>

Ian:
Thanks for trying to take a balanced approach. See my comments below

The Chinese Government did complain about a poster in a public area. If it had been inside the door instead of outside the door, there would have been no issue that the security police apparently felt compelled to act on.
This is false. First, the banner was moved inside and the objections and negotiations continued. Eventually the banner was removed. Hypothesis refuted, decisively. If "being inside" was ok and "being outside" was not, there was no reason to remove to banner from the room. There was only cause to move it inside.
It is not clear who exactly the Chinese complaint was to. It was not to the host country, the Chinese know that's not the appropriate way to do things. It would appear that the complaint may have been direct to the UN Security Unit who have travelled to all the IGFs and work closely with the Secretariat. Whether the Secretariat proper had any strong role in the decision is unknown to me and to those close to the event.
I have some specific knowledge about this, since I was there. The main who took charge and made the decisions regarding takedown and removal was, I think Egyptian. When I looked carefully at his badge to get his name he turned hiw badge around so that I could not see it. When I asked him, "who are you?" he refused to answer, saying only flippantly, "I am somebody." This is disgraceful behavior. If legitimate rules are being followed, the guy implementing them does not need to hide.
Actually I am pretty sure this guy was Egyptian, and that the complaint WAS to the host country.
In terms of the basis of the objections, I have also heard people mention - incorrectly it turns out - that Tibet was mentioned on the banner. Now, I don't think China shold be able to object to any mention of Tibet, but just to be factual, the banner did NOT mention Tibet.
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 04:29:14 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:29:14 +0500
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <CDF41084-6E27-4701-8033-948B23E1F3F3@datos-personales.org>
References: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com>
	 <701af9f70911160105i48dd0a33u4d74f21fffc709e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <C041EF35EF094A08A8164D3CD7B6CF51@shahzad>
	 <CDF41084-6E27-4701-8033-948B23E1F3F3@datos-personales.org>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911160129s583094d4le3b95403d1555f04@mail.gmail.com>

Kati, Yes indeed, agreed..............and my friends.....

It would also have been very nice and useful if CS members had shared
a schedule of all the workshops and the CS organizations that were
conducting their workshops with brief introductions that they were
coordinating or participating in and then we could be there and also
have witnessed/seen this but to share with you all, I've already
raised the issue within IGF-mag......and we have the open
consultations coming in February which is also a place to have direct
interaction.

Kindly provide me more details on the issue and as IGC's nominated MAG
member and its voice in the MAG you have a representation and its my
duty to intervene with this!!!!

Kati, Me, Natasha, Parminder are all there to take this up in both the
open consultations and the mag meets................




On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Katitza Rodriguez
<katitza at datos-personales.org> wrote:
> ONI means Open Net Initiative!
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros Foundation or
>> Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this event. ONI
>> Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
>> University and Harvard in the US.
>>
>> best wishes and regards
>> Shahzad
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
>>
>>
>> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
>> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
>> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
>> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
>> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
>> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
>>
>> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>> By Rabia Garib
>> 16 Nov 2009
>>
>> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
>> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
>> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
>> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
>>
>> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
>> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
>> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
>> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
>> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
>> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
>> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
>>
>> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
>> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
>> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
>> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
>> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
>> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
>>
>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>>
>> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
>> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
>> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
>>
>> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
>> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
>> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
>> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
>> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
>> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
>> member of the ONI Network.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at the IGF
>>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>>>
>>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much news
>>> out
>>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a
>>> sentence
>>> violated some rule or another.
>>>
>>> Anyone have more details?
>>>
>>> --karl--
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Fouad Bajwa
>> Advisor & Researcher
>> ICT4D & Internet Governance
>> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> Follow my Tweets:
>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> MAG Interview:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 04:38:25 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:38:25 +0500
Subject: [governance] What IGF is for? ONI Asia event rattled by UN
In-Reply-To: <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>
	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>
	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com>

Jeremy, boycott will only make CS absent from the opportunity to raise
their concerns. They have to be there and continue to
interact..................raise it and back it........be there and
take action...........

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:
> On 15/11/2009, at 4:02 PM, McTim wrote:
>
>> Shahzad,
>>
>> Truly outrageous, your group should really complain to Markus and get
>> your books back immediately, with an apology.
>>
>> I think this shows how misguided it is to have gov'ts play an
>> increasingly large role in IG.
>
> +1
>
> Am I overreacting, or should those who do not have workshop commitments
> organise a boycott of the IGF tomorrow, and let the Secretariat know why?
>
> In any case, I hope as many people will tweet and blog about this appalling
> action.
>
> --
> JEREMY MALCOLM
> Project Coordinator
> CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
> for Asia Pacific and the Middle East
>
> Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
> 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
> TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
> Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
> Mob: +60 12 282 5895
> Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
> www.consumersinternational.org
>
> Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global campaigning
> voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in 115 countries, we
> are building a powerful international consumer movement to help protect and
> empower consumers everywhere. For more information, visit
> www.consumersinternational.org.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Mon Nov 16 04:46:25 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:46:25 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <C041EF35EF094A08A8164D3CD7B6CF51@shahzad>
References: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com> <701af9f70911160105i48dd0a33u4d74f21fffc709e@mail.gmail.com> <C041EF35EF094A08A8164D3CD7B6CF51@shahzad>
Message-ID: <94AE9B17-54F0-41EB-AAFB-FA264AF81B2E@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hello,

The ONI event was to publicize the book, "Access Controlled: The  
Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace," edited by Ronald J.  
Deibert, John G. Palfrey, Rafal Rohozinski and Jonathan Zittrain.  The  
book will be published in April 2010 as part of the series I co-edit  
for the MIT Press on The Information Revolution and Global Politics.   
If anyone is interested in knowing more or pre-ordering, please see http://mitpress.mit.edu/IRGP-series 
.

Curious thing just happened.  I had put out a stack of flyers about  
the book, as well as another in the series, on the table in the back  
of the room at the session I'm now speaking in on the IG summer school  
program.  I stepped out of the room for a moment, and coming back saw  
three Chinese people standing outside the room conferring.  Walked  
back into the room and someone had removed all the flyers from the  
table.  I have to presume they are going around the building doing this.

There are also flyers at the IGP booth if anyone here here wants one.   
At least there were, not sure about now.

Best,

Bill


On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros  
> Foundation or
> Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this  
> event. ONI
> Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
> University and Harvard in the US.
>
> best wishes and regards
> Shahzad
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
>
>
> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
>
> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
> By Rabia Garib
> 16 Nov 2009
>
> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
>
> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
>
> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
>
> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>
> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
>
> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
> member of the ONI Network.
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com>  
> wrote:
>>
>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at  
>> the IGF
>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>>
>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much  
>> news
>> out
>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a
>> sentence
>> violated some rule or another.
>>
>> Anyone have more details?
>>
>> --karl--
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> ICT4D & Internet Governance
> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Senior Associate
Centre for International Governance
Graduate Institute of International and
  Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
***********************************************************


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From tapani.tarvainen at effi.org  Mon Nov 16 04:59:15 2009
From: tapani.tarvainen at effi.org (Tapani Tarvainen)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:59:15 +0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091116095914.GA27039@varis.it.jyu.fi>

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 05:56:56PM +0200, Qusai AlShatti (qshatti at gmail.com) wro
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.

I'll be in Sharm then, along with two other Effi representatives,
and probably at least two of us would be able to join the dinner.

-- 
Tapani Tarvainen
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From r.deibert at utoronto.ca  Mon Nov 16 04:58:32 2009
From: r.deibert at utoronto.ca (Ronald Deibert)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:58:32 +0200
Subject: [governance] some facts that may be helpful
Message-ID: <754A0322-8193-4AE1-8D50-BD5CC63D84AE@utoronto.ca>

1. We were told that the banner had to be removed because of the  
reference to China. This was repeated on several occasions, in front  
of about two dozen witnesses and officials, including the UN Special  
Rapporteur For Human Rights, who asked that I send in a formal letter  
of complaint.

2. Earlier, the same officials asked us to stop circulating a small  
invite to the event because it contained a mention of Tibet. They even  
underlined it in showing it to me. Because the event was just about to  
start, we said that we would not be distributing any more of these  
invitations so it was a moot point.

3. We asked repeatedly to see any rules or regulations governing this  
act. They did not give us any, only referring to the "objections of a  
member state."

4. There were in fact many posters and banners in many of the rooms  
that I attended, including others in our own. The video itself shows  
us, at one point, taking one of the other posters we have and offering  
to cover up the original one. They objected to that and told us this  
banner must be removed.

On another matter of clarification:

The UN officials did not throw the banner on the ground. They asked us  
to remove it and one of our staff placed it on the ground for us to  
consider what to do. That's where we had the discussion. When we  
refused to remove it, their security guards bundled it up and took it  
away.

Hope this helps to clarify.
Ron

Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab



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From jlfullsack at orange.fr  Mon Nov 16 05:02:29 2009
From: jlfullsack at orange.fr (Jean-Louis FULLSACK)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:02:29 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [governance] In memoriam Francis Muguet
In-Reply-To: <4AFDB5B1.3080100@itforchange.net>
References: <4AFDB5B1.3080100@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <1572168.142858.1258365748889.JavaMail.www@wwinf2223>


Dear friend Parminder, 
dear members of the list

Certainly, Enhanced cooperation is an important topic and deserves our interest.

However, I ask kindly -but firmly- the CS orgs and their members that are present in Sharm el Cheikh to devote at least a quarter of an hour to honor the memory of our regretted friend and fellow Francis Muguet. The audience should be reminded all that we owe to his work and continuous commitment during the WSIS and its follow-up process, either at the very beginning of the next CS Plenary meeting or, even better, in a special "open" space attended by all the stakeholders of the IGF. 

We should never forget his numerous initiatives, proposals, documents and activities that finally led to his premature death. A special attention should be paid on his fight for more rights and openness in the Internet space, his commitment for a free and open access to scientific and educational knowledge, for free and open software, for the Global Patronage proposal, for multilingualism and cultural diversity in the Internet, for promoting constantly the role of CS mainly in IG with a novel alternative to ICANN and all its oligarchs . But don't forget to mention as well his ideas for opening the domains space to more competition and his brutally interrupted work with the ITU in this important issue.

All of us should remind his friendliness, his personal commitment in assisting any group e.g. the developing countries' orgs, his willingness to foster a really open and better future through all his initiatives, his humour even when dealing with critical topics such as ICANN's very particular IG (remember his very descriptive term that represented this body and its gourous : the ComIntern !).

There is sufficent stuff for all of us to honor the memory of our dear friend Francis. As you may know, I owe it to him to be able to write you this message, since he was besides me when I had a heart attack at the end of the ITU-UNDP and Unesco meeting last May in Geneva. That is also the very reason I ask you to held him in your mind, at least during this event that was so important for him. And this is also the reason I  ask my friend Parminder whose commitment is so close to Francis' to act accordingly. I thank you very warmly for all your efforts, dear Parminder.

Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT and CESIR

PS : Let me just add that I'm somehow disapointed that Francis has completely disapeared from the (far too) numerous messages on this list. 

> Message du 14/11/09 07:52
> De : "Parminder" 
> A : "'governance at lists.cpsr.org'" 
> Copie à : 
> Objet : [governance] UN SG's report on enhanced cooperation
> 
> Pl find enclosed the UN SG's report on Enhanced Cooperation. Nothing new here, but thought may be of interest to some. Parminder 
> 
>
> [ secgen enhanced june 2009-1.pdf (222.9 Ko) ]
> [ message-footer.txt (0.3 Ko) ]
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From b.schombe at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 05:14:34 2009
From: b.schombe at gmail.com (Baudouin SCHOMBE)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:14:34 +0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <4784951.114552.1258355578131.JavaMail.www@wwinf2219>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4784951.114552.1258355578131.JavaMail.www@wwinf2219>
Message-ID: <ecb172de0911160214s7d4ccaa2h72ca3d3cc7472d83@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

can you tell me the time and the location

Baudouin

2009/11/16 Divina MEIGS <divina.meigs at orange.fr>

>
>
>
> > Message du 15/11/09 16:57
> > De : "Qusai AlShatti"
> > A : governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > Copie à :
> > Objet : [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
> >
> >
>  > Dear All:
> > A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> > November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> > doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Qusai
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> > governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> > governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> > http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> >
> good idea
> i'd be willing
> divina
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
COORDONNATEUR NATIONAL REPRONTIC
COORDONNATEUR SOUS REGIONAL ACSIS/AFRIQUE CENTRALE
MEMBRE FACILITATEUR GAID AFRIQUE
téléphone fixe: +243 1510 34 91
Téléphone mobile:+243998983491/+243999334571
                          +243811980914
email:b.schombe at gmail.com <email%3Ab.schombe at gmail.com>
blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
blog:http://educticafrique.ning.com/
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From nhklein at gmx.net  Mon Nov 16 05:14:51 2009
From: nhklein at gmx.net (Norbert Klein)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:14:51 +0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B01261B.60703@gmx.net>

Thanks,

please note I also am accepting the invitation.


Norbert Klein

-

Qusai AlShatti wrote:
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> Qusai
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>   


-- 
If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit
The Mirror, a regular review of the Cambodian language press in English.

This is the latest weekly editorial of the Mirror:

Cambodian-Thai Relations – Present and Former Prime Ministers 
Sunday, 8.11.2009

http://tinyurl.com/yfuswkm

(To read it, click on the line above.)

And here is something new every day:
http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com

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From iza at anr.org  Mon Nov 16 05:19:54 2009
From: iza at anr.org (Izumi AIZU)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:19:54 +0900
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <4B01261B.60703@gmx.net>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4B01261B.60703@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <a5509d940911160219n4a9eaeadh8e2016b324d2f08d@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I cannot join as I lave to leave here in the afternoon of 18th.

I appreciate your invitation, Qusai, and hope all to have wonderful evening.

izumi


>
> Qusai AlShatti wrote:
>> Dear All:
>> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
>> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
>> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Qusai
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit
> The Mirror, a regular review of the Cambodian language press in English.
>
> This is the latest weekly editorial of the Mirror:
>
> Cambodian-Thai Relations – Present and Former Prime Ministers
> Sunday, 8.11.2009
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yfuswkm
>
> (To read it, click on the line above.)
>
> And here is something new every day:
> http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>



-- 
                        >> Izumi Aizu <<

          Institute for InfoSocionomics, Tama University, Tokyo

           Institute for HyperNetwork Society, Oita,
                                  Japan
                                 * * * * *
           << Writing the Future of the History >>
                                www.anr.org
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From iza at anr.org  Mon Nov 16 05:21:17 2009
From: iza at anr.org (Izumi AIZU)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:21:17 +0900
Subject: [governance] Request for extending comments on IGF review
In-Reply-To: <C727496C.7FE8%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <4B00E115.5020602@apc.org> <C727496C.7FE8%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <a5509d940911160221g6a4bc508s756164dae71ad34a@mail.gmail.com>

I support this request.

izumi

2009/11/16 Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>:
> I think IGC should endorse this request. What do others think? As discussed
> at our meeting, this review session appears as if it will not hear all
> viewpoints people want to express and the extra comment period would allow
> this to be redressed in some way.
>
>
> On 16/11/09 4:20 PM, "Willie Currie" <wcurrie at apc.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> We learned during the IGC meeting on Saturday that the number of
>> speakers at the Stocktaking session would be limited and that
>> governments would have precedence. Other stakeholders were asked to
>> cluster their inputs. At the MAG meeting on Saturday, it was made clear
>> that the UN secretariat would be running the session and would not take
>> comments after the session. Written comments can be made up to the session.
>>
>> Because of these limitations I propose that we should make a request for
>> an additional three week comment period in the IGC statement to the
>> Stocktaking session. It's unclear if APC will be able to speak, but if
>> we can, we will make a similar request. We should also encourage other
>> academic and CS speakers to do the same. I understand ICC Basis will
>> also include a similar request.
>>
>> Willie
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>
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>



-- 
                        >> Izumi Aizu <<

          Institute for InfoSocionomics, Tama University, Tokyo

           Institute for HyperNetwork Society, Oita,
                                  Japan
                                 * * * * *
           << Writing the Future of the History >>
                                www.anr.org
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 05:27:02 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:57:02 -0430
Subject: [governance] Request for extending comments on IGF review
In-Reply-To: <a5509d940911160221g6a4bc508s756164dae71ad34a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B00E115.5020602@apc.org> <C727496C.7FE8%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <a5509d940911160221g6a4bc508s756164dae71ad34a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B0128F6.8030209@gmail.com>

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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 05:33:15 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:33:15 -0500
Subject: [governance] The end of IGF? Mulling on its point and 
In-Reply-To: <86975D706AC34B6E817E9FDC38E69C2C@shahzad>
References: <86975D706AC34B6E817E9FDC38E69C2C@shahzad>
Message-ID: <45ed74050911160233g77759bb4ne3858ef4607450d@mail.gmail.com>

Much appreciated ("almost like being there"!).  Have posted to your blog, as
follows.


Thank you for this early and insightful post; it will take a while to ponder
the excellent points made here.

     Who is to be in-network one may wonder when in-person participation is
quite costly; but cheeringly the broadcasts from the 4th IGF are streaming
through and broadening inclusion significantly.  At a different computing
related conference yesterday* it was emphasized that the Internet not only
should reflect inclusive principles around the globe but itself champion
them.  Say on!

     Linda D. Misek-Falkoff, Ph.D.,J.D., ICT ARPANet forward.   The
*Respectful Interfaces* Programme of the Communications Coordination
Committee for the U.N. and World Education Fellowship (these comments are my
own). Come join, our coda is:  "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing
Diversity". Email:   respectful.interfaces at gmail.com   .



*WordPress "WordCamp" LDMF in-placed participation 11/15/09

Looking forward to more connecting....

with best wishes, Linda.
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net>wrote:

> An excellent piece by genderIT.org team covers quite a few interesting
> points reflecting on the first day of IGF 09.
>
> http://www.genderit.org/en/index.shtml?apc=f--e--1&x=96347
>
> best wishes and regards
>
> Shahzad
> ____________________________________________________________
>


> LDMF.
>  Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
>  914 769 3652
>  law /  computing / humanities:
>  Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
>  Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
>  U.N.;
>  World Education Fellowship;
>  Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
>  National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
>  Persons with Pain Intl.;
>  ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
>  n.b.: You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
>  Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
>  about leadership interning).
>
> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the

> > CCC/UN.
>
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Mon Nov 16 05:42:15 2009
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:42:15 -0200
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org> <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>

Hi people,

I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 
200 million people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 94% 
of the people do *not* have access to any form of broadband - the "B" in 
the famous BRIC acronym.

I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access for 
a global Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the workshop 
a bit shocked with the concepts expressed, not by the AT&T 
representative (who not surprisingly said AT&T subdsidiaries countries 
other than the USA should be considered local companies because they 
employ local people), who as usual is just doing his job in defending 
the so-called "market", but by other speeches which seemed to completely 
ignore that, in most of our contries, there is a de facto monopoly or 
cartel situation regarding the telco infrastructure, and that public 
policy ought to centrally take this into account if the aim is to 
universalize broadband access with quality to all families.

One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require 
lower costs" and therefore one should just "phase out universal access 
levies and rationalize taxes". I retorted that pricing per Mb/s of ADSL 
broadband in São Paulo might be 65 times higher than the same price 
charged by the same company in London -- and therefore no amount of 
levies or taxes would justify such scandalous pricing difference, not to 
speak of the much lower QoS.

I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds 
(whose levies are a very small portion of price composition of 
broadband), we should insist on reforming policy regarding the use of 
these funds. The reply I heard was that it makes no sense to keep funds 
that are not used or are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's levy in 
Brazil is just 1% of the price of the fixed line telephone connection -- 
its impact in the price of broadband (a separate bill even if the 
service is not unbundled) is zero.

There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to 
facilitate things regarding universalization of access -- fascinating. 
Again, examples abound in which telcos guarantee only 10% of the nominal 
contracted rate, and in practice this might be even less. Should we just 
agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is better to have 
something than nothing"???

And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the 
policy debate in the developed countries as it directly impacts 
universalization through an effective reduction of prices for the final 
user. It is a major challenge for broadband public policy in developing 
countries, where regulators are usually in the hands of the telco 
cartels. The word was not mentioned (not a single time) by anyone in the 
panel, as if irrelevant to the development dimensions of broadband.

The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big 
telcos would require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One of 
the two big carriers in Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns redundant 
fiber running from Brazil to Miami in rings passing through countries in 
the Caribbean and Central America. They own their own international 
link, in summary. So do the other carrier in the de facto duopoly --  a 
major operator from Europe. This does not make any difference in pricing 
for the final user, although it does contribute to their profits in 
Brazil being far higher than in Europe for example.

Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker started 
his talk by waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly natural for 
a commercial wireless giant. But the infoDev representative and others 
mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the poor, and not even bothered to 
separate the discussion in the two main topics here: first, the mobile 
phone as a connectivity device to enable the user to fully use the 
Internet through a friendly human-machine interface, be it a common PC 
or special equipment for people with disabilities; second, the phone 
itself as *the* alternative to the full user experience that a PC or 
similar might provide. It seems the agency bureaucrats are satisfied 
with having two castes of users: a small minority of the ones who can 
fully use the Internet as it evolves requiring more and more multimedia 
capabilities on both sides (server and client), and the ones relegated 
to a small device on which it is barely possible to type small messages.

In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a 
representative of a major telco said we should not worry about bringing 
the next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so they are 
connected already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive would take 
the place of a carpenter looking for a job, who has to compose and send 
by email his CV together with images of letters of recommendation to his 
would-be employer, and had nothing but a cell phone (smart or not) to do 
it. Not to speak of comparing the executive's thin-fingered hands of a 
pianist with the big callous hands of the carpenter.

fraternal regards

--c.a.
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From doutorsocratesoreidofutebol at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 05:54:59 2009
From: doutorsocratesoreidofutebol at gmail.com (ricardo ruiz)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:54:59 -0300
Subject: [governance] Info form IGF
In-Reply-To: <c81ef57a0911150354wea2ad5dg74af888015ef03c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c81ef57a0911150354wea2ad5dg74af888015ef03c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa8f85c50911160254q1fe50414pd8b94133582a99e2@mail.gmail.com>

sounds nice...

Do u have a link for the interview?

Best

ruiz

On 15/11/2009, Ahmed Swapan Mahmud <ahmed.swapan at gmail.com> wrote:
> FYI/
>
> A while ago I was interviewed by the Egyptian television 'Nile TV' while I
> spoke on ONI and its project in Asia -- censorship and surveillance; how
> democratic space is being controlled, the State and corporations are
> imposing CS, blocking access and restricting democratic and human rights
> practices...
> Regards, Ahmed
> --
> Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
> Executive Director, VOICE
> House 67, Block-Ka
> Pisciculture Housing Society
> Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
> Bangladesh
> Tel : +88-02-8158688
> Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
> Alternate e-mail : exchange.voice at gmail.com
> Website : www.voicebd.org
>


-- 
-----------
:(){ :|:& };:
Unix Shell Forkbomb (2002)
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From charityg at diplomacy.edu  Mon Nov 16 06:06:20 2009
From: charityg at diplomacy.edu (Charity Gamboa)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:06:20 -0600
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
In-Reply-To: <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>
	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>
	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
	 <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <ad14556f0911160306o62d6e96bm7cb1d49753145cdf@mail.gmail.com>

Carlos,

I attended a workshop on Mobile Internet yesterday and they were advocating
the use of mobile for Internet access - access for the poor.  If AT&T was
there, Verizon was there in that workshop I attended. Funny,how telecoms try
to tell everyone how great they are - their expansion plans and all. ( I got
a crappy verizon phone on loan under their global roaming program - battery
that only lasts for 5 hours and I paid $9.99 for shipping plus taxes and a
one week $4.99 revised plan to lower sms and call rates, plus getting billed
for all the usage, too.)

Right now, I am not exactly too happy about mobile services and how they
over-rate themselves under several pretenses. They should just "put their
money where their mouth is."

These telecoms try to put such fascination to mobile phones! They want to
help the poor but going into mobile access is not  always the solution. If
they want to make the lives of poor people better, they should work on basic
health  and sustainability programs. Eventually, when these people get
desperate, such phones would end up in a pawnshop anyway.

Regards,
Charity

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:

> Hi people,
>
> I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 200
> million people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 94% of the
> people do *not* have access to any form of broadband - the "B" in the famous
> BRIC acronym.
>
> I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access for a
> global Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the workshop a bit
> shocked with the concepts expressed, not by the AT&T representative (who not
> surprisingly said AT&T subdsidiaries countries other than the USA should be
> considered local companies because they employ local people), who as usual
> is just doing his job in defending the so-called "market", but by other
> speeches which seemed to completely ignore that, in most of our contries,
> there is a de facto monopoly or cartel situation regarding the telco
> infrastructure, and that public policy ought to centrally take this into
> account if the aim is to universalize broadband access with quality to all
> families.
>
> One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require lower
> costs" and therefore one should just "phase out universal access levies and
> rationalize taxes". I retorted that pricing per Mb/s of ADSL broadband in
> São Paulo might be 65 times higher than the same price charged by the same
> company in London -- and therefore no amount of levies or taxes would
> justify such scandalous pricing difference, not to speak of the much lower
> QoS.
>
> I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds (whose
> levies are a very small portion of price composition of broadband), we
> should insist on reforming policy regarding the use of these funds. The
> reply I heard was that it makes no sense to keep funds that are not used or
> are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's levy in Brazil is just 1% of the
> price of the fixed line telephone connection -- its impact in the price of
> broadband (a separate bill even if the service is not unbundled) is zero.
>
> There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to
> facilitate things regarding universalization of access -- fascinating.
> Again, examples abound in which telcos guarantee only 10% of the nominal
> contracted rate, and in practice this might be even less. Should we just
> agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is better to have something
> than nothing"???
>
> And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the policy
> debate in the developed countries as it directly impacts universalization
> through an effective reduction of prices for the final user. It is a major
> challenge for broadband public policy in developing countries, where
> regulators are usually in the hands of the telco cartels. The word was not
> mentioned (not a single time) by anyone in the panel, as if irrelevant to
> the development dimensions of broadband.
>
> The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big
> telcos would require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One of the
> two big carriers in Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns redundant fiber
> running from Brazil to Miami in rings passing through countries in the
> Caribbean and Central America. They own their own international link, in
> summary. So do the other carrier in the de facto duopoly --  a major
> operator from Europe. This does not make any difference in pricing for the
> final user, although it does contribute to their profits in Brazil being far
> higher than in Europe for example.
>
> Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker started
> his talk by waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly natural for a
> commercial wireless giant. But the infoDev representative and others
> mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the poor, and not even bothered to
> separate the discussion in the two main topics here: first, the mobile phone
> as a connectivity device to enable the user to fully use the Internet
> through a friendly human-machine interface, be it a common PC or special
> equipment for people with disabilities; second, the phone itself as *the*
> alternative to the full user experience that a PC or similar might provide.
> It seems the agency bureaucrats are satisfied with having two castes of
> users: a small minority of the ones who can fully use the Internet as it
> evolves requiring more and more multimedia capabilities on both sides
> (server and client), and the ones relegated to a small device on which it is
> barely possible to type small messages.
>
> In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a
> representative of a major telco said we should not worry about bringing the
> next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so they are connected
> already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive would take the place of
> a carpenter looking for a job, who has to compose and send by email his CV
> together with images of letters of recommendation to his would-be employer,
> and had nothing but a cell phone (smart or not) to do it. Not to speak of
> comparing the executive's thin-fingered hands of a pianist with the big
> callous hands of the carpenter.
>
> fraternal regards
>
> --c.a.
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Charity Gamboa-Embley
Student Alternatives Program, Inc - South Plains Academy
4008 Avenue R
Lubbock, Texas 79412
+1 (806) 744 0330
http://www.stdsapi.com/
cembley at esc17.net
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 06:10:19 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:10:19 -0500
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
In-Reply-To: <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <41CD1188EA634A329411092C18C0097A@userPC>

Excellent comment, Carlos!  The first communication I've seen from the IGF
that deals with issues of possible concern to the "other 5 billion...

M

-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos A. Afonso [mailto:ca at cafonso.ca] 
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 5:42 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...


Hi people,

I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 
200 million people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 94% 
of the people do *not* have access to any form of broadband - the "B" in 
the famous BRIC acronym.

I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access for 
a global Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the workshop 
a bit shocked with the concepts expressed, not by the AT&T 
representative (who not surprisingly said AT&T subdsidiaries countries 
other than the USA should be considered local companies because they 
employ local people), who as usual is just doing his job in defending 
the so-called "market", but by other speeches which seemed to completely 
ignore that, in most of our contries, there is a de facto monopoly or 
cartel situation regarding the telco infrastructure, and that public 
policy ought to centrally take this into account if the aim is to 
universalize broadband access with quality to all families.

One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require 
lower costs" and therefore one should just "phase out universal access 
levies and rationalize taxes". I retorted that pricing per Mb/s of ADSL 
broadband in São Paulo might be 65 times higher than the same price 
charged by the same company in London -- and therefore no amount of 
levies or taxes would justify such scandalous pricing difference, not to 
speak of the much lower QoS.

I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds 
(whose levies are a very small portion of price composition of 
broadband), we should insist on reforming policy regarding the use of 
these funds. The reply I heard was that it makes no sense to keep funds 
that are not used or are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's levy in 
Brazil is just 1% of the price of the fixed line telephone connection -- 
its impact in the price of broadband (a separate bill even if the 
service is not unbundled) is zero.

There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to 
facilitate things regarding universalization of access -- fascinating. 
Again, examples abound in which telcos guarantee only 10% of the nominal 
contracted rate, and in practice this might be even less. Should we just 
agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is better to have 
something than nothing"???

And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the 
policy debate in the developed countries as it directly impacts 
universalization through an effective reduction of prices for the final 
user. It is a major challenge for broadband public policy in developing 
countries, where regulators are usually in the hands of the telco 
cartels. The word was not mentioned (not a single time) by anyone in the 
panel, as if irrelevant to the development dimensions of broadband.

The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big 
telcos would require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One of 
the two big carriers in Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns redundant 
fiber running from Brazil to Miami in rings passing through countries in 
the Caribbean and Central America. They own their own international 
link, in summary. So do the other carrier in the de facto duopoly --  a 
major operator from Europe. This does not make any difference in pricing 
for the final user, although it does contribute to their profits in 
Brazil being far higher than in Europe for example.

Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker started 
his talk by waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly natural for 
a commercial wireless giant. But the infoDev representative and others 
mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the poor, and not even bothered to 
separate the discussion in the two main topics here: first, the mobile 
phone as a connectivity device to enable the user to fully use the 
Internet through a friendly human-machine interface, be it a common PC 
or special equipment for people with disabilities; second, the phone 
itself as *the* alternative to the full user experience that a PC or 
similar might provide. It seems the agency bureaucrats are satisfied 
with having two castes of users: a small minority of the ones who can 
fully use the Internet as it evolves requiring more and more multimedia 
capabilities on both sides (server and client), and the ones relegated 
to a small device on which it is barely possible to type small messages.

In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a 
representative of a major telco said we should not worry about bringing 
the next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so they are 
connected already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive would take 
the place of a carpenter looking for a job, who has to compose and send 
by email his CV together with images of letters of recommendation to his 
would-be employer, and had nothing but a cell phone (smart or not) to do 
it. Not to speak of comparing the executive's thin-fingered hands of a 
pianist with the big callous hands of the carpenter.

fraternal regards

--c.a. ____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From presidencia at internauta.org.ar  Mon Nov 16 06:37:20 2009
From: presidencia at internauta.org.ar (Presidencia Internauta)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:37:20 -0300
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org> <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com> <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <8710FC0E14854F23AFCA91D457D68D47@Sergio>

The text is in Spanish and English

Spanish:
Exelente reflexion!, estoy totalmente de acuerdo con lo que expresas querido Carlos...me 
permites colgarlo en nuestro portal? Seria muy bueno que los Usuarios de Internet de 
Argentina lean esto y vean lo que se discute en las listas sobre gobernanza de Internet.
saludos cordiales

Sergio Salinas Porto
presidente
Internauta
Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet
http://www.internauta.org.ar
Integrante de FLUI
Federación Latinoamericana de Usuarios de Internet
Http://www.fuilatin.org

English:
Excellent reflection!, I totally agree with what you express dear carlos ... I may hang it 
in our site? It would be very good for Internet users in Argentina read this and see what 
is discussed on the lists on Internet Governance.
best regards
Sergio Salinas Porto
presidente
Internauta
Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet
http://www.internauta.org.ar
Integrante de FLUI
Federacion Latinoamericana de Usuarios de Internet
Http://www.fuilatin.org

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca>
To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 7:42 AM
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...


> Hi people,
>
> I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 200 million 
> people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 94% of the people do *not* have 
> access to any form of broadband - the "B" in the famous BRIC acronym.
>
> I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access for a global 
> Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the workshop a bit shocked with the 
> concepts expressed, not by the AT&T representative (who not surprisingly said AT&T 
> subdsidiaries countries other than the USA should be considered local companies because 
> they employ local people), who as usual is just doing his job in defending the so-called 
> "market", but by other speeches which seemed to completely ignore that, in most of our 
> contries, there is a de facto monopoly or cartel situation regarding the telco 
> infrastructure, and that public policy ought to centrally take this into account if the 
> aim is to universalize broadband access with quality to all families.
>
> One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require lower costs" and 
> therefore one should just "phase out universal access levies and rationalize taxes". I 
> retorted that pricing per Mb/s of ADSL broadband in São Paulo might be 65 times higher 
> than the same price charged by the same company in London -- and therefore no amount of 
> levies or taxes would justify such scandalous pricing difference, not to speak of the 
> much lower QoS.
>
> I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds (whose levies are a 
> very small portion of price composition of broadband), we should insist on reforming 
> policy regarding the use of these funds. The reply I heard was that it makes no sense to 
> keep funds that are not used or are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's levy in Brazil 
> is just 1% of the price of the fixed line telephone connection -- 
> its impact in the price of broadband (a separate bill even if the service is not 
> unbundled) is zero.
>
> There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to facilitate things 
> regarding universalization of access -- fascinating. Again, examples abound in which 
> telcos guarantee only 10% of the nominal contracted rate, and in practice this might be 
> even less. Should we just agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is better to 
> have something than nothing"???
>
> And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the policy debate in 
> the developed countries as it directly impacts universalization through an effective 
> reduction of prices for the final user. It is a major challenge for broadband public 
> policy in developing countries, where regulators are usually in the hands of the telco 
> cartels. The word was not mentioned (not a single time) by anyone in the panel, as if 
> irrelevant to the development dimensions of broadband.
>
> The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big telcos would 
> require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One of the two big carriers in 
> Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns redundant fiber running from Brazil to Miami in 
> rings passing through countries in the Caribbean and Central America. They own their own 
> international link, in summary. So do the other carrier in the de facto duopoly --  a 
> major operator from Europe. This does not make any difference in pricing for the final 
> user, although it does contribute to their profits in Brazil being far higher than in 
> Europe for example.
>
> Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker started his talk by 
> waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly natural for a commercial wireless giant. 
> But the infoDev representative and others mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the poor, 
> and not even bothered to separate the discussion in the two main topics here: first, the 
> mobile phone as a connectivity device to enable the user to fully use the Internet 
> through a friendly human-machine interface, be it a common PC or special equipment for 
> people with disabilities; second, the phone itself as *the* alternative to the full user 
> experience that a PC or similar might provide. It seems the agency bureaucrats are 
> satisfied with having two castes of users: a small minority of the ones who can fully 
> use the Internet as it evolves requiring more and more multimedia capabilities on both 
> sides (server and client), and the ones relegated to a small device on which it is 
> barely possible to type small messages.
>
> In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a representative of 
> a major telco said we should not worry about bringing the next billion to the 
> Internet -- they have cell phones, so they are connected already, problem solved. I 
> wonder if this executive would take the place of a carpenter looking for a job, who has 
> to compose and send by email his CV together with images of letters of recommendation to 
> his would-be employer, and had nothing but a cell phone (smart or not) to do it. Not to 
> speak of comparing the executive's thin-fingered hands of a pianist with the big callous 
> hands of the carpenter.
>
> fraternal regards
>
> --c.a.
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance 

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From ocl at gih.com  Mon Nov 16 06:38:18 2009
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:38:18 +0200
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad> <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com> <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org> <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com> <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca> <ad14556f0911160306o62d6e96bm7cb1d49753145cdf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2C81B19711B47A3899F17B50D706654@GIH.CO.UK>

Carlos,

  In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a representative of a major telco said we should not worry about bringing the next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so they are connected already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive would take the place of a carpenter looking for a job, who has to compose and send by email his CV together with images of letters of recommendation to his would-be employer, and had nothing but a cell phone (smart or not) to do it. Not to speak of comparing the executive's thin-fingered hands of a pianist with the big callous hands of the carpenter.
   


That's because traditional Telcos only believe in the traditional supply-purchase scenario, that is, server -> client.
They don't believe in user generated content because that's not lucrative enough.

Warm regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
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From ahmed.swapan at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 07:00:48 2009
From: ahmed.swapan at gmail.com (Ahmed Swapan Mahmud)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:00:48 -0200
Subject: [governance] The UN has been criticised for stifling debate about
 net censorshipafter it disrupted a meeting of free-speech advocates in
 Egypt.
Message-ID: <c81ef57a0911160400j4a4cf966va7695f3b1301be61@mail.gmail.com>

fyi from the IGF. <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8361849.stm>

Regards, Ahmed <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8361849.stm>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8361849.stm

[image: BBC NEWS]
UN slated for stifling net debate
By Jonathan Fildes
Technology reporter, BBC News

*The UN has been criticised for stifling debate about net censorship after
it disrupted a meeting of free-speech advocates in Egypt.*

UN security demanded the removal of a poster promoting a book by the OpenNet
Initiative (ONI) during a session at the Internet Governance Forum in Egypt.

The poster mentioned internet censorship and China's Great Firewall.

The UN has said that it had received complaints about the poster and that it
had not been "pre-approved".

"If we are not allowed to discuss topics such as internet censorship,
surveillance and privacy at a forum on internet governance, then what is the
point of the IGF?" Ron Deibert, co-founder of the OpenNet Initiative told
BBC News.

*'Objections'*

Professor Deibert said that he had been asked by the UN special rapporteur
For Human Rights, who witnessed the removal, to send a formal letter of
complaint.

Video of the event, posted to YouTube, show a UN security guard gathering up
the poster from the floor and taking it away.

"No UN official was involved in throwing the poster on the floor," a UN
spokesperson said.

"Following repeated requests from the IGF Secretariat to remove the poster
from the floor, a UN Security [guard] removed it from the floor and folded
it undamaged. The organisers were told that they could pick it up anytime
later that evening."

The UN said they had received complaints about the poster from "delegates"
and that it had not been "pre-approved for posting outside the allocated
room".

Part of the banner read: "internet censorship and surveillance are
increasing in democratic countries as well as authoritarian states.

"The first generation of controls, typified by China's 'Great Firewall', are
being replaced by more sophisticated techniques that go beyond mere denial
of information."

Mr Deibert said that he asked "repeatedly" to see "rules or regulations
governing this act".

"They did not give us any, only referring to the 'objections of a member
state'," he told BBC News.

*'Surprising decision'*

It followed an earlier incident when UN officials asked the ONI to stop
distributing an invitation which "mentioned Tibet", according to Mr Deibert.

The UN said the invitation was advertising "a film on 'free Tibet', which
was not mentioned in the original request for the room".

"The IGF Secretariat approved the request by the OpenNet Initiative (ONI)
for a room on the first day of the Forum to promote the book Access
Controlled and a room was allocated for that purpose," it said in a
statement.

"Officials from the Forum's Secretariat requested the organisers not to
distribute the flyer or show the film as this is not what the room was
requested for and second, these were concerned with a political issue not
related to the Internet Governance Forum."

The ONI agreed to stop handing out the flyers, according to Mr Deibert.

Human rights activists have criticised the Internet Governance Forum for
holding the meeting in Egypt. Reporters Without Borders said it was
"surprised" by the decision and questioned the country's approach to free
speech online.

The Internet Governance Forum (IGF) brings together government officials,
businesses and net luminaries.

Web creator Sir Tim Berners-Lee used a keynote speech at the event to launch
the World Wide Web Foundation, a group set up to use the web to drive social
and economic change, largely in the developing world.

The IGF grew out of a previous meeting called World Summit on the
Information Society that was held in Tunisia in 2005.

It has more than 1,400 participants and runs from 15 to 18 November.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/technology/8361849.stm

Published: 2009/11/16 10:49:43 GMT

© BBC MMIX

Print Sponsor
Advertisement
Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab


-- 
Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
Executive Director, VOICE
House 67, Block-Ka
Pisciculture Housing Society
Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
Bangladesh
Tel : +88-02-8158688
Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
Alternate e-mail : exchange.voice at gmail.com
Website : www.voicebd.org
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From ahmed.swapan at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 07:02:43 2009
From: ahmed.swapan at gmail.com (Ahmed Swapan Mahmud)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:02:43 -0200
Subject: [governance] Info form IGF
In-Reply-To: <aa8f85c50911160254q1fe50414pd8b94133582a99e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c81ef57a0911150354wea2ad5dg74af888015ef03c8@mail.gmail.com>
	 <aa8f85c50911160254q1fe50414pd8b94133582a99e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c81ef57a0911160402m350d4d1cuf2115dbadfde1055@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ruiz,

Sorry, I dont have the link. But Mohammaed Yousuf who took interveiw said he
would let me know and send a link.

Regards, Ahmed

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:54 AM, ricardo ruiz <
doutorsocratesoreidofutebol at gmail.com> wrote:

> sounds nice...
>
> Do u have a link for the interview?
>
> Best
>
> ruiz
>
> On 15/11/2009, Ahmed Swapan Mahmud <ahmed.swapan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > FYI/
> >
> > A while ago I was interviewed by the Egyptian television 'Nile TV' while
> I
> > spoke on ONI and its project in Asia -- censorship and surveillance; how
> > democratic space is being controlled, the State and corporations are
> > imposing CS, blocking access and restricting democratic and human rights
> > practices...
> > Regards, Ahmed
> > --
> > Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
> > Executive Director, VOICE
> > House 67, Block-Ka
> > Pisciculture Housing Society
> > Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
> > Bangladesh
> > Tel : +88-02-8158688
> > Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
> > Alternate e-mail : exchange.voice at gmail.com
> > Website : www.voicebd.org
> >
>
>
> --
> -----------
> :(){ :|:& };:
> Unix Shell Forkbomb (2002)
>



-- 
Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
Executive Director, VOICE
House 67, Block-Ka
Pisciculture Housing Society
Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
Bangladesh
Tel : +88-02-8158688
Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
Alternate e-mail : exchange.voice at gmail.com
Website : www.voicebd.org
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Mon Nov 16 07:33:22 2009
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:33:22 -0200
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
In-Reply-To: <8710FC0E14854F23AFCA91D457D68D47@Sergio>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org> <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com> <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca> <8710FC0E14854F23AFCA91D457D68D47@Sergio>
Message-ID: <4B014692.1020109@cafonso.ca>

Todos mis textos son CC (Creative Commons) "share-alike, non-commercial 
attribution."

O sea, puedes publicar siempre sin problemas :)

[] fraterno

--c.a.

Presidencia Internauta wrote:
> The text is in Spanish and English
> 
> Spanish:
> Exelente reflexion!, estoy totalmente de acuerdo con lo que expresas 
> querido Carlos...me permites colgarlo en nuestro portal? Seria muy bueno 
> que los Usuarios de Internet de Argentina lean esto y vean lo que se 
> discute en las listas sobre gobernanza de Internet.
> saludos cordiales
> 
> Sergio Salinas Porto
> presidente
> Internauta
> Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet
> http://www.internauta.org.ar
> Integrante de FLUI
> Federación Latinoamericana de Usuarios de Internet
> Http://www.fuilatin.org
> 
> English:
> Excellent reflection!, I totally agree with what you express dear carlos 
> ... I may hang it in our site? It would be very good for Internet users 
> in Argentina read this and see what is discussed on the lists on 
> Internet Governance.
> best regards
> Sergio Salinas Porto
> presidente
> Internauta
> Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet
> http://www.internauta.org.ar
> Integrante de FLUI
> Federacion Latinoamericana de Usuarios de Internet
> Http://www.fuilatin.org
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca>
> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 7:42 AM
> Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
> 
> 
>> Hi people,
>>
>> I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 
>> 200 million people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 
>> 94% of the people do *not* have access to any form of broadband - the 
>> "B" in the famous BRIC acronym.
>>
>> I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access 
>> for a global Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the 
>> workshop a bit shocked with the concepts expressed, not by the AT&T 
>> representative (who not surprisingly said AT&T subdsidiaries countries 
>> other than the USA should be considered local companies because they 
>> employ local people), who as usual is just doing his job in defending 
>> the so-called "market", but by other speeches which seemed to 
>> completely ignore that, in most of our contries, there is a de facto 
>> monopoly or cartel situation regarding the telco infrastructure, and 
>> that public policy ought to centrally take this into account if the 
>> aim is to universalize broadband access with quality to all families.
>>
>> One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require 
>> lower costs" and therefore one should just "phase out universal access 
>> levies and rationalize taxes". I retorted that pricing per Mb/s of 
>> ADSL broadband in São Paulo might be 65 times higher than the same 
>> price charged by the same company in London -- and therefore no amount 
>> of levies or taxes would justify such scandalous pricing difference, 
>> not to speak of the much lower QoS.
>>
>> I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds 
>> (whose levies are a very small portion of price composition of 
>> broadband), we should insist on reforming policy regarding the use of 
>> these funds. The reply I heard was that it makes no sense to keep 
>> funds that are not used or are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's 
>> levy in Brazil is just 1% of the price of the fixed line telephone 
>> connection -- its impact in the price of broadband (a separate bill 
>> even if the service is not unbundled) is zero.
>>
>> There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to 
>> facilitate things regarding universalization of access -- fascinating. 
>> Again, examples abound in which telcos guarantee only 10% of the 
>> nominal contracted rate, and in practice this might be even less. 
>> Should we just agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is 
>> better to have something than nothing"???
>>
>> And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the 
>> policy debate in the developed countries as it directly impacts 
>> universalization through an effective reduction of prices for the 
>> final user. It is a major challenge for broadband public policy in 
>> developing countries, where regulators are usually in the hands of the 
>> telco cartels. The word was not mentioned (not a single time) by 
>> anyone in the panel, as if irrelevant to the development dimensions of 
>> broadband.
>>
>> The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big 
>> telcos would require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One 
>> of the two big carriers in Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns 
>> redundant fiber running from Brazil to Miami in rings passing through 
>> countries in the Caribbean and Central America. They own their own 
>> international link, in summary. So do the other carrier in the de 
>> facto duopoly --  a major operator from Europe. This does not make any 
>> difference in pricing for the final user, although it does contribute 
>> to their profits in Brazil being far higher than in Europe for example.
>>
>> Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker 
>> started his talk by waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly 
>> natural for a commercial wireless giant. But the infoDev 
>> representative and others mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the 
>> poor, and not even bothered to separate the discussion in the two main 
>> topics here: first, the mobile phone as a connectivity device to 
>> enable the user to fully use the Internet through a friendly 
>> human-machine interface, be it a common PC or special equipment for 
>> people with disabilities; second, the phone itself as *the* 
>> alternative to the full user experience that a PC or similar might 
>> provide. It seems the agency bureaucrats are satisfied with having two 
>> castes of users: a small minority of the ones who can fully use the 
>> Internet as it evolves requiring more and more multimedia capabilities 
>> on both sides (server and client), and the ones relegated to a small 
>> device on which it is barely possible to type small messages.
>>
>> In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a 
>> representative of a major telco said we should not worry about 
>> bringing the next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so 
>> they are connected already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive 
>> would take the place of a carpenter looking for a job, who has to 
>> compose and send by email his CV together with images of letters of 
>> recommendation to his would-be employer, and had nothing but a cell 
>> phone (smart or not) to do it. Not to speak of comparing the 
>> executive's thin-fingered hands of a pianist with the big callous 
>> hands of the carpenter.
>>
>> fraternal regards
>>
>> --c.a.
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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> 
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Mon Nov 16 07:48:07 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:48:07 +1100
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <94AE9B17-54F0-41EB-AAFB-FA264AF81B2E@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <C7279537.803A%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Here is a reply received from Markus Kummer in response to my email below. I
will try to organise a meeting.


Dear Ian,

I am happy to explain more in detail what happened, as I am equally
concerned about these media reports. We don't allow posters, commercial or
otherwise. The IGF Village is the only place to advertise organizations and
their activities.

You may or may not have noticed that we asked a big corporation to take down
their posters/banners at the Rio meeting. They did so without any complaint.

As it happened, the group in question did not act in good faith. They asked
for a room for a book launch and we gave them a room for a book launch. The
incident you are referring to did not occur in the way it was reported. The
poster was already on the floor when the UN officials arrived.

Please let me know what would be a suitable time for a meeting.

Best regards

Markus

 
MY EMAIL FOLLOWS



Markus KUMMER <MKUMMER at unog.ch>, IGF <IGF at unog.ch>

cc  

Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>

bcc  


Subject  

Information requested re poster removal
    

Markus,

I am writing on behalf of the Internet Governance Caucus, whose members are
greatly concerned by the media reports about the poster removal incident
yesterday. I must also say that IGF delegates of all persuasions have been
talking about this and genuinely want more information.

Is it possible to get from you some information about the Secretariats role
in this and why the action was taken? I believe such information will help a
great deal in gaining a more measured and appropriate response to this
incident.

All the best,



Ian Peter


ith

On 16/11/09 8:46 PM, "William Drake" <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch>
wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> The ONI event was to publicize the book, "Access Controlled: The
> Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace," edited by Ronald J.
> Deibert, John G. Palfrey, Rafal Rohozinski and Jonathan Zittrain.  The
> book will be published in April 2010 as part of the series I co-edit
> for the MIT Press on The Information Revolution and Global Politics.
> If anyone is interested in knowing more or pre-ordering, please see
> http://mitpress.mit.edu/IRGP-series
> .
> 
> Curious thing just happened.  I had put out a stack of flyers about
> the book, as well as another in the series, on the table in the back
> of the room at the session I'm now speaking in on the IG summer school
> program.  I stepped out of the room for a moment, and coming back saw
> three Chinese people standing outside the room conferring.  Walked
> back into the room and someone had removed all the flyers from the
> table.  I have to presume they are going around the building doing this.
> 
> There are also flyers at the IGP booth if anyone here here wants one.
> At least there were, not sure about now.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:
> 
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> 
>> Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros
>> Foundation or
>> Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this
>> event. ONI
>> Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
>> University and Harvard in the US.
>> 
>> best wishes and regards
>> Shahzad
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
>> 
>> 
>> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
>> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
>> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
>> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
>> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
>> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
>> 
>> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>> By Rabia Garib
>> 16 Nov 2009
>> 
>> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
>> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
>> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
>> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
>> 
>> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
>> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
>> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
>> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
>> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
>> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
>> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
>> 
>> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
>> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
>> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
>> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
>> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
>> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
>> 
>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>> 
>> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
>> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
>> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
>> 
>> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
>> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
>> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
>> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
>> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
>> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
>> member of the ONI Network.
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at
>>> the IGF
>>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>>> 
>>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much
>>> news
>>> out
>>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a
>>> sentence
>>> violated some rule or another.
>>> 
>>> Anyone have more details?
>>> 
>>> --karl--
>>> 
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>> 
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Fouad Bajwa
>> Advisor & Researcher
>> ICT4D & Internet Governance
>> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> Follow my Tweets:
>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> MAG Interview:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>> 
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>> 
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>> 
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> 
> ***********************************************************
> William J. Drake
> Senior Associate
> Centre for International Governance
> Graduate Institute of International and
>   Development Studies
> Geneva, Switzerland
> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
> www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
> ***********************************************************
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
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From jlfullsack at orange.fr  Mon Nov 16 07:50:49 2009
From: jlfullsack at orange.fr (Jean-Louis FULLSACK)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:50:49 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [governance] UN SG's report on enhanced cooperation
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911140130r69f82be0k17ea4e27031ecb60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AFDB5B1.3080100@itforchange.net>
 <f65fb55e0911132355o1c62f004rccff2bcbb72d51ef@mail.gmail.com>
 <701af9f70911140130r69f82be0k17ea4e27031ecb60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31742817.138936.1258375849881.JavaMail.www@wwinf1d31>

Bonjour

never forget that ITU is a "technological" agency (at least on the paper) since it is the oldest international telecoms body. Nevertheless -and I'm strongly oppose that activity- ITU organiizes "Internet protection for the children" conferences and is more and more "regulation" oriented then "development" oriented (which is its primary function besides standardizatioin). In other words ITU has'nt any intellectual capacity (nor does it have the financiel resources) to be a main actor in this field.
CS should be very aware of this and rather promote a "structured" cooperation between ITU, Unesco and the UNDP for instance. 

I remember that Bill Drake proposed some ideas for an overdue ITU reform in this context at he 2008 meeting of EuroDIG , and I expressed my readiness for contributing to this thinking. Will it be on a (very) future CS agenda ?

Best regards
Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT




> Message du 14/11/09 10:30
> De : "Fouad Bajwa" 
> A : governance at lists.cpsr.org, "McTim" 
> Copie à : "Parminder" 
> Objet : Re: [governance] UN SG's report on enhanced cooperation
> 
> 
> Hmm, I see ITU's submission on their own part but not as part of the
> report's overall objective. ITU and UNESCO have their own views but
> bringing the issue of IG just under one existing governance
> organizational structure limits it. For example, ITU never talks about
> rights of Human's on the Internet..........it may be more interesting
> in building the invincible hand behind cyber security law enforcement
> standards and practice but not seeing the social aspects of the
> Internet.
> 
> In my opinion, the IG aspect with respect to having the IGF continued
> is still the best way to go!
> 
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM, McTim wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Parminder wrote:
> >> Pl find enclosed the UN SG's report on Enhanced Cooperation. Nothing new
> >> here,
> >
> >
> > Nothing new? Read the ITU section again, it's a bald power play (not
> > that that is new), but this is the first I have heard of, inter alia,:
> >
> > • An improved governance framework could be formed, in which all
> > countries would have an equal say in Internet-related public policy
> > issues and in the management of critical Internet resources.
> >
> > • An intergovernmental organization such as ITU has the necessary
> > mandate and hence could play a leading role in the creation of this
> > governance structure.
> >
> > • The role and functions related to policies governing the
> > harmonized and global coordination of services for country-code
> > top-level domains (ccTLDs) should be assumed by a relevant
> > intergovernmental body with a mandate from Governments and experience
> > in providing such services so that concerns and interests of sovereign
> > States can be taken into account.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > McTim
> > "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
> > route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> > governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> > governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> > http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> ICT4D & Internet Governance
> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> 
>
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From jam at jacquelinemorris.com  Mon Nov 16 07:51:13 2009
From: jam at jacquelinemorris.com (Jacqueline A, Morris)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:51:13 -0400
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
In-Reply-To: <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org> <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com> <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <4B014AC1.1030108@jacquelinemorris.com>

Thanks for this excellent reflection, Carlos. Much to think about.
Jacqueline

Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
> Hi people,
>
> I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 
> 200 million people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 
> 94% of the people do *not* have access to any form of broadband - the 
> "B" in the famous BRIC acronym.
>
> I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access 
> for a global Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the 
> workshop a bit shocked with the concepts expressed, not by the AT&T 
> representative (who not surprisingly said AT&T subdsidiaries countries 
> other than the USA should be considered local companies because they 
> employ local people), who as usual is just doing his job in defending 
> the so-called "market", but by other speeches which seemed to 
> completely ignore that, in most of our contries, there is a de facto 
> monopoly or cartel situation regarding the telco infrastructure, and 
> that public policy ought to centrally take this into account if the 
> aim is to universalize broadband access with quality to all families.
>
> One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require 
> lower costs" and therefore one should just "phase out universal access 
> levies and rationalize taxes". I retorted that pricing per Mb/s of 
> ADSL broadband in São Paulo might be 65 times higher than the same 
> price charged by the same company in London -- and therefore no amount 
> of levies or taxes would justify such scandalous pricing difference, 
> not to speak of the much lower QoS.
>
> I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds 
> (whose levies are a very small portion of price composition of 
> broadband), we should insist on reforming policy regarding the use of 
> these funds. The reply I heard was that it makes no sense to keep 
> funds that are not used or are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's 
> levy in Brazil is just 1% of the price of the fixed line telephone 
> connection -- its impact in the price of broadband (a separate bill 
> even if the service is not unbundled) is zero.
>
> There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to 
> facilitate things regarding universalization of access -- fascinating. 
> Again, examples abound in which telcos guarantee only 10% of the 
> nominal contracted rate, and in practice this might be even less. 
> Should we just agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is 
> better to have something than nothing"???
>
> And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the 
> policy debate in the developed countries as it directly impacts 
> universalization through an effective reduction of prices for the 
> final user. It is a major challenge for broadband public policy in 
> developing countries, where regulators are usually in the hands of the 
> telco cartels. The word was not mentioned (not a single time) by 
> anyone in the panel, as if irrelevant to the development dimensions of 
> broadband.
>
> The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big 
> telcos would require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One 
> of the two big carriers in Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns 
> redundant fiber running from Brazil to Miami in rings passing through 
> countries in the Caribbean and Central America. They own their own 
> international link, in summary. So do the other carrier in the de 
> facto duopoly --  a major operator from Europe. This does not make any 
> difference in pricing for the final user, although it does contribute 
> to their profits in Brazil being far higher than in Europe for example.
>
> Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker 
> started his talk by waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly 
> natural for a commercial wireless giant. But the infoDev 
> representative and others mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the 
> poor, and not even bothered to separate the discussion in the two main 
> topics here: first, the mobile phone as a connectivity device to 
> enable the user to fully use the Internet through a friendly 
> human-machine interface, be it a common PC or special equipment for 
> people with disabilities; second, the phone itself as *the* 
> alternative to the full user experience that a PC or similar might 
> provide. It seems the agency bureaucrats are satisfied with having two 
> castes of users: a small minority of the ones who can fully use the 
> Internet as it evolves requiring more and more multimedia capabilities 
> on both sides (server and client), and the ones relegated to a small 
> device on which it is barely possible to type small messages.
>
> In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a 
> representative of a major telco said we should not worry about 
> bringing the next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so 
> they are connected already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive 
> would take the place of a carpenter looking for a job, who has to 
> compose and send by email his CV together with images of letters of 
> recommendation to his would-be employer, and had nothing but a cell 
> phone (smart or not) to do it. Not to speak of comparing the 
> executive's thin-fingered hands of a pianist with the big callous 
> hands of the carpenter.
>
> fraternal regards
>
> --c.a.
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Mon Nov 16 08:35:18 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:35:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Icann Working Group Guidelines [WWG] Guidelines
Message-ID: <sympa.1258378319.58828.640@lists.cpsr.org>

Avri,

I've been following the progress/process of the: Working Group Guidelines [WWG]
at: http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-ppsc-wg/

The incident at the IGF-Egypt Open Net Initiative (ONI) reception, unveils
another type of stipulation/situation.

What Guideline will the WWG have in place for this type of interactive event 
(live &/or virtual)?
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From r.deibert at utoronto.ca  Mon Nov 16 09:14:20 2009
From: r.deibert at utoronto.ca (Ronald Deibert)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:14:20 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <C7279537.803A%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <C7279537.803A%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <A473F76B-8783-4BD6-A713-A84774ADAC67@utoronto.ca>

This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.  We  
were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising anything  
but because of the reference to China.  This was immediately following  
an earlier incident in which we were told to spot handing out to  
friends and colleagues invites to the book reception because of a line  
in the invitation about Tibet.  Although it irritated us and seemed  
outrageous we agreed not to distribute those invitations because the  
launch had already started and there as no point distributing anything  
more.

We booked the room for a book launch, and yes as part of the book  
launch we were giving talks about the ONI as a whole, showing clips  
from a documentary about the topics covered by the ONI it's research  
that were undertaken by researchers part of the ONI Asia group (not a  
whole film -- as was falsely reported by the ONI).

Is it not allowed to show slides and movie clips as part of a book  
launch??

In no way did UN officials tell us that the reason to remove the  
poster was because of commercial advertisement.  We were told  
explicitly it was because of the mention of China.

I mean, let's get real.  The reason had nothing to do with advertising  
and everything to do about substance.

Ron

On 16-Nov-09, at 2:48 PM, Ian Peter wrote:

> Here is a reply received from Markus Kummer in response to my email  
> below. I
> will try to organise a meeting.
>
>
> Dear Ian,
>
> I am happy to explain more in detail what happened, as I am equally
> concerned about these media reports. We don't allow posters,  
> commercial or
> otherwise. The IGF Village is the only place to advertise  
> organizations and
> their activities.
>
> You may or may not have noticed that we asked a big corporation to  
> take down
> their posters/banners at the Rio meeting. They did so without any  
> complaint.
>
> As it happened, the group in question did not act in good faith.  
> They asked
> for a room for a book launch and we gave them a room for a book  
> launch. The
> incident you are referring to did not occur in the way it was  
> reported. The
> poster was already on the floor when the UN officials arrived.
>
> Please let me know what would be a suitable time for a meeting.
>
> Best regards
>
> Markus
>
>
> MY EMAIL FOLLOWS
>
>
>
> Markus KUMMER <MKUMMER at unog.ch>, IGF <IGF at unog.ch>
>
> cc
>
> Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>
> bcc
>
>
> Subject
>
> Information requested re poster removal
>
>
> Markus,
>
> I am writing on behalf of the Internet Governance Caucus, whose  
> members are
> greatly concerned by the media reports about the poster removal  
> incident
> yesterday. I must also say that IGF delegates of all persuasions  
> have been
> talking about this and genuinely want more information.
>
> Is it possible to get from you some information about the  
> Secretariats role
> in this and why the action was taken? I believe such information  
> will help a
> great deal in gaining a more measured and appropriate response to this
> incident.
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Ian Peter
>
>
> ith
>
> On 16/11/09 8:46 PM, "William Drake" <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch 
> >
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> The ONI event was to publicize the book, "Access Controlled: The
>> Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace," edited by Ronald  
>> J.
>> Deibert, John G. Palfrey, Rafal Rohozinski and Jonathan Zittrain.   
>> The
>> book will be published in April 2010 as part of the series I co-edit
>> for the MIT Press on The Information Revolution and Global Politics.
>> If anyone is interested in knowing more or pre-ordering, please see
>> http://mitpress.mit.edu/IRGP-series
>> .
>>
>> Curious thing just happened.  I had put out a stack of flyers about
>> the book, as well as another in the series, on the table in the back
>> of the room at the session I'm now speaking in on the IG summer  
>> school
>> program.  I stepped out of the room for a moment, and coming back saw
>> three Chinese people standing outside the room conferring.  Walked
>> back into the room and someone had removed all the flyers from the
>> table.  I have to presume they are going around the building doing  
>> this.
>>
>> There are also flyers at the IGP booth if anyone here here wants one.
>> At least there were, not sure about now.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros
>>> Foundation or
>>> Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this
>>> event. ONI
>>> Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
>>> University and Harvard in the US.
>>>
>>> best wishes and regards
>>> Shahzad
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>>> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
>>>
>>>
>>> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
>>> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
>>> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
>>> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a  
>>> poster
>>> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
>>> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
>>>
>>> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
>>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what  
>>> is
>>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>>> By Rabia Garib
>>> 16 Nov 2009
>>>
>>> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an  
>>> event
>>> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum  
>>> (IGF)
>>> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who  
>>> demanded
>>> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
>>>
>>> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of  
>>> Bytesforall.net, a
>>> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
>>> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access  
>>> Controlled", a
>>> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
>>> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to  
>>> China
>>> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
>>> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
>>>
>>> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
>>> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
>>> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
>>> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
>>> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall  
>>> of
>>> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
>>>
>>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what  
>>> is
>>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>>>
>>> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
>>> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
>>> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
>>>
>>> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just  
>>> because
>>> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
>>> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather  
>>> here
>>> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
>>> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
>>> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
>>> member of the ONI Network.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at
>>>> the IGF
>>>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>>>>
>>>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much
>>>> news
>>>> out
>>>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a
>>>> sentence
>>>> violated some rule or another.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have more details?
>>>>
>>>> --karl--
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>
>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Regards.
>>> --------------------------
>>> Fouad Bajwa
>>> Advisor & Researcher
>>> ICT4D & Internet Governance
>>> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>>> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>>> Follow my Tweets:
>>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>>> MAG Interview:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>> ***********************************************************
>> William J. Drake
>> Senior Associate
>> Centre for International Governance
>> Graduate Institute of International and
>>  Development Studies
>> Geneva, Switzerland
>> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
>> www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
>> ***********************************************************
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>

Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab



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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Mon Nov 16 09:21:34 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:21:34 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <A473F76B-8783-4BD6-A713-A84774ADAC67@utoronto.ca>
References: <C7279537.803A%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <A473F76B-8783-4BD6-A713-A84774ADAC67@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <9FE188E6-F5B6-457E-B760-2FF40F937A96@ciroap.org>

On 16/11/2009, at 4:14 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:

> This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.   
> We were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising  
> anything but because of the reference to China.

Tonight there is another book launch, for GISWatch 2009: http://www.giswatch.org/gisw2009/GISW2009.html 
.  Hopefully, a poster will be erected there too.  We will see if it  
is taken down.

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

____________________________________________________________
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From r.deibert at utoronto.ca  Mon Nov 16 09:25:15 2009
From: r.deibert at utoronto.ca (Ronald Deibert)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:25:15 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <A473F76B-8783-4BD6-A713-A84774ADAC67@utoronto.ca>
References: <C7279537.803A%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <A473F76B-8783-4BD6-A713-A84774ADAC67@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <97AC2990-5F83-4CF7-8DA5-2D48939F1E3D@utoronto.ca>

Apologies, some typos in my previous post now corrected (was typing in  
a hurry) to respond to the inaccuracies that were sent around by Mr.  
Kummer.

Proper post:

This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.  We  
were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising anything  
but because of the reference to China.  This was immediately following  
an earlier incident in which we were told to stop handing out to  
friends and colleagues invites to the book reception because of a line  
in the invitation about Tibet.  Although it irritated us and seemed  
outrageous, we agreed not to distribute those invitations because the  
launch had already started and there was no point distributing  
anything more.

We booked the room for a book launch, and yes as part of the book  
launch we were giving talks about the ONI as a whole, showing clips  
from a documentary about the topics covered by the ONI, and its  
research that was undertaken by researchers who are part of the ONI  
Asia group (not a whole film -- as was falsely reported by the IGF).

Is it not allowed to show slides and movie clips as part of a book  
launch??

In no way did UN officials tell us that the reason to remove the  
poster was because of commercial advertisement.  We were told  
explicitly it was because of the mention of China.

I mean, let's get real.  The reason had nothing to do with advertising  
and everything to do about substance.

Ron
On 16-Nov-09, at 4:14 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:

> This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.   
> We were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising  
> anything but because of the reference to China.  This was  
> immediately following an earlier incident in which we were told to  
> spot handing out to friends and colleagues invites to the book  
> reception because of a line in the invitation about Tibet.  Although  
> it irritated us and seemed outrageous we agreed not to distribute  
> those invitations because the launch had already started and there  
> as no point distributing anything more.
>
> We booked the room for a book launch, and yes as part of the book  
> launch we were giving talks about the ONI as a whole, showing clips  
> from a documentary about the topics covered by the ONI it's research  
> that were undertaken by researchers part of the ONI Asia group (not  
> a whole film -- as was falsely reported by the ONI).
>
> Is it not allowed to show slides and movie clips as part of a book  
> launch??
>
> In no way did UN officials tell us that the reason to remove the  
> poster was because of commercial advertisement.  We were told  
> explicitly it was because of the mention of China.
>
> I mean, let's get real.  The reason had nothing to do with  
> advertising and everything to do about substance.
>
> Ron
>
> On 16-Nov-09, at 2:48 PM, Ian Peter wrote:
>
>> Here is a reply received from Markus Kummer in response to my email  
>> below. I
>> will try to organise a meeting.
>>
>>
>> Dear Ian,
>>
>> I am happy to explain more in detail what happened, as I am equally
>> concerned about these media reports. We don't allow posters,  
>> commercial or
>> otherwise. The IGF Village is the only place to advertise  
>> organizations and
>> their activities.
>>
>> You may or may not have noticed that we asked a big corporation to  
>> take down
>> their posters/banners at the Rio meeting. They did so without any  
>> complaint.
>>
>> As it happened, the group in question did not act in good faith.  
>> They asked
>> for a room for a book launch and we gave them a room for a book  
>> launch. The
>> incident you are referring to did not occur in the way it was  
>> reported. The
>> poster was already on the floor when the UN officials arrived.
>>
>> Please let me know what would be a suitable time for a meeting.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>> MY EMAIL FOLLOWS
>>
>>
>>
>> Markus KUMMER <MKUMMER at unog.ch>, IGF <IGF at unog.ch>
>>
>> cc
>>
>> Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
>>
>> bcc
>>
>>
>> Subject
>>
>> Information requested re poster removal
>>
>>
>> Markus,
>>
>> I am writing on behalf of the Internet Governance Caucus, whose  
>> members are
>> greatly concerned by the media reports about the poster removal  
>> incident
>> yesterday. I must also say that IGF delegates of all persuasions  
>> have been
>> talking about this and genuinely want more information.
>>
>> Is it possible to get from you some information about the  
>> Secretariats role
>> in this and why the action was taken? I believe such information  
>> will help a
>> great deal in gaining a more measured and appropriate response to  
>> this
>> incident.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Ian Peter
>>
>>
>> ith
>>
>> On 16/11/09 8:46 PM, "William Drake" <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch 
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> The ONI event was to publicize the book, "Access Controlled: The
>>> Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace," edited by  
>>> Ronald J.
>>> Deibert, John G. Palfrey, Rafal Rohozinski and Jonathan Zittrain.   
>>> The
>>> book will be published in April 2010 as part of the series I co-edit
>>> for the MIT Press on The Information Revolution and Global Politics.
>>> If anyone is interested in knowing more or pre-ordering, please see
>>> http://mitpress.mit.edu/IRGP-series
>>> .
>>>
>>> Curious thing just happened.  I had put out a stack of flyers about
>>> the book, as well as another in the series, on the table in the back
>>> of the room at the session I'm now speaking in on the IG summer  
>>> school
>>> program.  I stepped out of the room for a moment, and coming back  
>>> saw
>>> three Chinese people standing outside the room conferring.  Walked
>>> back into the room and someone had removed all the flyers from the
>>> table.  I have to presume they are going around the building doing  
>>> this.
>>>
>>> There are also flyers at the IGP booth if anyone here here wants  
>>> one.
>>> At least there were, not sure about now.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros
>>>> Foundation or
>>>> Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this
>>>> event. ONI
>>>> Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
>>>> University and Harvard in the US.
>>>>
>>>> best wishes and regards
>>>> Shahzad
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach"  
>>>> <karl at cavebear.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
>>>> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
>>>> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when  
>>>> the
>>>> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a  
>>>> poster
>>>> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by  
>>>> the
>>>> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
>>>>
>>>> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
>>>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>>>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then  
>>>> what is
>>>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>>>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>>>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>>>> By Rabia Garib
>>>> 16 Nov 2009
>>>>
>>>> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an  
>>>> event
>>>> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum  
>>>> (IGF)
>>>> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who  
>>>> demanded
>>>> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
>>>>
>>>> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of  
>>>> Bytesforall.net, a
>>>> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
>>>> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access  
>>>> Controlled", a
>>>> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
>>>> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to  
>>>> China
>>>> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
>>>> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
>>>>
>>>> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled"  
>>>> was
>>>> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
>>>> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
>>>> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
>>>> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great  
>>>> Firewall of
>>>> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
>>>>
>>>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>>>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then  
>>>> what is
>>>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>>>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>>>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>>>>
>>>> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will  
>>>> file a
>>>> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
>>>> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
>>>>
>>>> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just  
>>>> because
>>>> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the  
>>>> Chinese
>>>> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather  
>>>> here
>>>> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and  
>>>> surveillance
>>>> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing  
>>>> our
>>>> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
>>>> member of the ONI Network.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at
>>>>> the IGF
>>>>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>>>>>
>>>>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much
>>>>> news
>>>>> out
>>>>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security  
>>>>> because a
>>>>> sentence
>>>>> violated some rule or another.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have more details?
>>>>>
>>>>> --karl--
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>
>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Regards.
>>>> --------------------------
>>>> Fouad Bajwa
>>>> Advisor & Researcher
>>>> ICT4D & Internet Governance
>>>> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>>>> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>>>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>>>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>>>> Follow my Tweets:
>>>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>>>> MAG Interview:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>   governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>   governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>
>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>   http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>> ***********************************************************
>>> William J. Drake
>>> Senior Associate
>>> Centre for International Governance
>>> Graduate Institute of International and
>>> Development Studies
>>> Geneva, Switzerland
>>> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
>>> www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
>>> ***********************************************************
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
> Ronald J. Deibert
> Director, The Citizen Lab
> Munk Centre for International Studies
> University of Toronto
> r.deibert at utoronto.ca
> http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
> twitter.com/citizenlab
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
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>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab



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From alalegre at fma.ph  Mon Nov 16 09:44:53 2009
From: alalegre at fma.ph (Al Alegre)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:44:53 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: [governance] [Fwd: [oni] IGF UN Official story] - on the blocking
 of the ONI poster: CLARIFICATIONS
Message-ID: <f4d8f7045cc08e9aec438af182fd45f6.squirrel@rizal.ph.net>

To friends in the IGC and in APC who, while in IGF Egypt, have been making
official representations to, or engaging in informal private conversations
in response to yesterday's incident at the ONI reception, with various
officials in the IGF leadership...

We are sending this clarificatory message because of an "official" IGF
version of the events, which has come to our attention. We are doing this
in good faith to correct errors on all sides, in the interest of the truth
and genuine accountability.

Some media reports that have since circulated about the incident have
indeed had some minor factual errors, which we have since last night been
trying to correct by writing/commenting on the online media outlets.

Here is the gist of the clarifications Ron Deibert has been trying to
make, both to correct the above, but also to reiterate the true and
indisputable acts of censorship that were justified then on the basis of
the appeasing a member state.

We hope this helps bring the focus back to the real issues, and do please
circulate this note as  you feel appropriate. Thank you

Al Alegre
Regional Coordinator, ONI Asia

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: [oni] IGF UN Official story
From:    "Ronald Deibert" <r.deibert @utoronto.ca>
Date:    Mon, November 16, 2009 10:09 pm
To:      "oni at eon.law.harvard.edu Initiative" <oni at eon.law.harvard.edu>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone

the IGF and UN officials are now peddling an official story that the
"real reason" the poster was taken down was because it was for a
commercial product, which is not allowed.

Those of you who were there and were listening on the conversations
know that this is not the case.

it is important that we get our facts straight and make sure that we
convey the truth about what happened.

I have posted these as a guideline, feel free to correct but also to
use and spread as you see fit.

1. We were told that the banner had to be removed because of the
reference to China. This was repeated on several occasions, in front
of about two dozen witnesses and officials, including the UN Special
Rapporteur For Human Rights, who asked that I send in a formal letter
of complaint.

2. Earlier, the same officials asked us to stop circulating a small
invite to the event because it contained a mention of Tibet. They even
underlined it in showing it to me. Because the event was just about to
start, we said that we would not be distributing any more of these
invitations so it was a moot point.

3. We asked repeatedly to see any rules or regulations governing this
act. They did not give us any, only referring to the "objections of a
member state."

4. There were in fact many posters and banners in many of the rooms
that I attended, including others in our own. The video itself shows
us, at one point, taking one of the other posters we have and offering
to cover up the original one. They objected to that and told us this
banner must be removed.

On another matter of clarification:

The UN officials did not throw the banner on the ground. They asked us
to remove it and one of our staff placed it on the ground for us to
consider what to do. That's where we had the discussion. When we
refused to remove it, their security guards bundled it up and took it
away.

Hope this helps to clarify.
Ron
Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert @ utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab





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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 10:05:36 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:05:36 +0500
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911160705g5932767bqc6d90fa5aa3b7871@mail.gmail.com>

Count me in dear Qusai!

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> Qusai
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From r.deibert at utoronto.ca  Mon Nov 16 10:11:40 2009
From: r.deibert at utoronto.ca (Ronald Deibert)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:11:40 +0200
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
Message-ID: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca>

Hi Governance list.

Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters.    It is hard  
to keep up now with the IGF spin being put on the event.  So I think  
I'll just back off now and resign to whatever happens.  Hope the truth  
wins out, but it looks as though Markus Kummer is intent on spreading  
falsehoods.

It is contrary to what I've said from the beginning, contrary to what  
I've posted on my blog and contrary to what I posted on this very list  
this morning, as well as posting on the comment section of Boing Boing  
(for what that is worth).

I really wish Markus Kummer would stop spreading falsehoods about what  
I have or have not said -- and what did or did not happen at the  
event.  He was not even there.  Many on this list were though and are  
now re-telling what they witnessed themselves.  (My facts are re- 
pasted again after the reporter's query).



Hi,

i have reported on the "incident" at he IGF for heise online in one of  
my
IGF stories. Now I get a completely different stories from Markus  
Kummer and
want to follow up with you asking:

1. Kummer says it is a rule that no posters would be placed outside of
meeting rooms, this was the rule. You said UN officials pointed to   
request
from China. So what do you say to Kummers reaction?
2. Kummer said that UN oficials did not take the poster down, and by  
saying
so you created a false impression, that could even be said to be
manipulative. How would you react?

best,

Monika


Monika Ermert			eLance Journalist
monika at ermert.info		Skype: m.ermert
+49 (0) 173 6617763		+49 (0) 89 63850014
Croissant-Rust-Str. 15		81243 München

1. We were told that the banner had to be removed because of the  
reference to China. This was repeated on several occasions, in front  
of about two dozen witnesses and officials, including the UN Special  
Rapporteur For Human Rights, who asked that I send in a formal letter  
of complaint.

2. Earlier, the same officials asked us to stop circulating a small  
invite to the event because it contained a mention of Tibet. They even  
underlined it in showing it to me. Because the event was just about to  
start, we said that we would not be distributing any more of these  
invitations so it was a moot point.

3. We asked repeatedly to see any rules or regulations governing this  
act. They did not give us any, only referring to the "objections of a  
member state."

4. There were in fact many posters and banners in many of the rooms  
that I attended, including others in our own. The video itself shows  
us, at one point, taking one of the other posters we have and offering  
to cover up the original one. They objected to that and told us this  
banner must be removed.

On another matter of clarification:

The UN officials did not throw the banner on the ground. They asked us  
to remove it and one of our staff placed it on the ground for us to  
consider what to do. That's where we had the discussion. When we  
refused to remove it, their security guards bundled it up and took it  
away.

Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab



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From karl at cavebear.com  Mon Nov 16 11:12:34 2009
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:12:34 -0800
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
In-Reply-To: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca>
References: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <4B0179F2.8050407@cavebear.com>

On 11/16/2009 07:11 AM, Ronald Deibert wrote:

> Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters....

One question that I had and that was also asked on /. was about the 
video: "who were the people who applauded" when the poster was ripped 
off of its stand (while on the floor) by the security people?  It 
sounded like there were people in the room who were supporting the 
security action.

(And I don't understand the big deal about "it was already on the 
floor"?  That hardly seems like a justification for anything except 
putting it up right again.)

		--karl--



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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Mon Nov 16 11:13:25 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:13:25 +0200
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
In-Reply-To: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca>
References: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <33F5DB6D-B03D-4FFB-81EF-783B00BBE680@ciroap.org>

On 16/11/2009, at 5:11 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:

> Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters.    It is hard  
> to keep up now with the IGF spin being put on the event.  So I think  
> I'll just back off now and resign to whatever happens.  Hope the  
> truth wins out, but it looks as though Markus Kummer is intent on  
> spreading falsehoods.

Robert, please stick with it, we all fully support you and your  
colleagues on this.

Markus Kummer has behaved deceitfully to me and others in the past.   
(This is not a personal slight, it is in his job description as a  
diplomat.)  It angers me that even we within the IGC are expected to  
treat him and Nitin Desai with kid gloves because any slight upon the  
Secretariat is seen as doing injury to the IGF as a whole.

Well, this is a matter of high principle and frankly even if the IGF  
as an institution is damaged by the fallout, in my opinion, so be it.

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Mon Nov 16 11:18:25 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:18:25 +0200
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
In-Reply-To: <33F5DB6D-B03D-4FFB-81EF-783B00BBE680@ciroap.org>
References: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca> <33F5DB6D-B03D-4FFB-81EF-783B00BBE680@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <D80BAD94-F362-4315-BC8F-044989676571@ciroap.org>

On 16/11/2009, at 6:13 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:

> On 16/11/2009, at 5:11 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:
>
>> Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters.    It is  
>> hard to keep up now with the IGF spin being put on the event.  So I  
>> think I'll just back off now and resign to whatever happens.  Hope  
>> the truth wins out, but it looks as though Markus Kummer is intent  
>> on spreading falsehoods.
>
> Robert, please stick with it, we all fully support you and your  
> colleagues on this.

In my hasty annoyance I called you "Robert" instead of "Ronald".  I  
apologise.

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

____________________________________________________________
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From nyangkweagien at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 11:55:34 2009
From: nyangkweagien at gmail.com (Nyangkwe Agien Aaron)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:55:34 +0100
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
In-Reply-To: <D80BAD94-F362-4315-BC8F-044989676571@ciroap.org>
References: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca>
	 <33F5DB6D-B03D-4FFB-81EF-783B00BBE680@ciroap.org>
	 <D80BAD94-F362-4315-BC8F-044989676571@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <a6bc8cb30911160855g11b4e7e4l527a0f4670db47cd@mail.gmail.com>

"Markus Kummer has behaved deceitfully to me and others in the past.
(This is not a personal slight, it is in his job description as a
diplomat.)"

A terrible charge that needs a sentence if I can speak like a judge.
Within our journalism milieu, The Managing Editor will ask you to
leave the news room for some stood-off or a direct sack.

What says the IGC on this very sad case? Someting has to done because
this has to do with the integrity of the men and women here?

Or am I wish hunting?



On 11/16/09, Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:
> On 16/11/2009, at 6:13 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
>
>> On 16/11/2009, at 5:11 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:
>>
>>> Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters.    It is
>>> hard to keep up now with the IGF spin being put on the event.  So I
>>> think I'll just back off now and resign to whatever happens.  Hope
>>> the truth wins out, but it looks as though Markus Kummer is intent
>>> on spreading falsehoods.
>>
>> Robert, please stick with it, we all fully support you and your
>> colleagues on this.
>
> In my hasty annoyance I called you "Robert" instead of "Ronald".  I
> apologise.
>
> --
> JEREMY MALCOLM
> Project Coordinator
> CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
> for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	
>
> Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
> 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
> TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
> Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
> Mob: +60 12 282 5895
> Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
> www.consumersinternational.org
>
> Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global
> campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in
> 115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer
> movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more
> information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>


-- 
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 16 11:58:58 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:58:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] The UN has been criticised for stifling debate
 about net censorshipafter it disrupted a meeting of free-speech advocates
 in Egypt.
In-Reply-To: <c81ef57a0911160400j4a4cf966va7695f3b1301be61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <220692.17134.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Sometimes politicians get all the luck!  Or is there some symetry to the leading Yahoo news story -- coincidences are a sticky wicket!!
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA?SITE=WWL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Ahmed Swapan Mahmud <ahmed.swapan at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Ahmed Swapan Mahmud <ahmed.swapan at gmail.com>
Subject: [governance] The UN has been criticised for stifling debate about net censorshipafter it disrupted a meeting of free-speech advocates in Egypt.
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 12:00 PM



fyi from the IGF.


Regards, Ahmed


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8361849.stm




UN slated for stifling net debateBy Jonathan Fildes 
Technology reporter, BBC News 

The UN has been criticised for stifling debate about net censorship after it disrupted a meeting of free-speech advocates in Egypt.
UN security demanded the removal of a poster promoting a book by the OpenNet Initiative (ONI) during a session at the Internet Governance Forum in Egypt.
The poster mentioned internet censorship and China's Great Firewall.
The UN has said that it had received complaints about the poster and that it had not been "pre-approved".

"If we are not allowed to discuss topics such as internet censorship, surveillance and privacy at a forum on internet governance, then what is the point of the IGF?" Ron Deibert, co-founder of the OpenNet Initiative told BBC News.
'Objections'
Professor Deibert said that he had been asked by the UN special rapporteur For Human Rights, who witnessed the removal, to send a formal letter of complaint.
Video of the event, posted to YouTube, show a UN security guard gathering up the poster from the floor and taking it away.
"No UN official was involved in throwing the poster on the floor," a UN spokesperson said.



"Following repeated requests from the IGF Secretariat to remove the poster from the floor, a UN Security [guard] removed it from the floor and folded it undamaged. The organisers were told that they could pick it up anytime later that evening."
The UN said they had received complaints about the poster from "delegates" and that it had not been "pre-approved for posting outside the allocated room".
Part of the banner read: "internet censorship and surveillance are increasing in democratic countries as well as authoritarian states.
"The first generation of controls, typified by China's 'Great Firewall', are being replaced by more sophisticated techniques that go beyond mere denial of information."
Mr Deibert said that he asked "repeatedly" to see "rules or regulations governing this act".
"They did not give us any, only referring to the 'objections of a member state'," he told BBC News.
'Surprising decision'
It followed an earlier incident when UN officials asked the ONI to stop distributing an invitation which "mentioned Tibet", according to Mr Deibert.
The UN said the invitation was advertising "a film on 'free Tibet', which was not mentioned in the original request for the room".
"The IGF Secretariat approved the request by the OpenNet Initiative (ONI) for a room on the first day of the Forum to promote the book Access Controlled and a room was allocated for that purpose," it said in a statement.
"Officials from the Forum's Secretariat requested the organisers not to distribute the flyer or show the film as this is not what the room was requested for and second, these were concerned with a political issue not related to the Internet Governance Forum."
The ONI agreed to stop handing out the flyers, according to Mr Deibert.
Human rights activists have criticised the Internet Governance Forum for holding the meeting in Egypt. Reporters Without Borders said it was "surprised" by the decision and questioned the country's approach to free speech online.
The Internet Governance Forum (IGF) brings together government officials, businesses and net luminaries.
Web creator Sir Tim Berners-Lee used a keynote speech at the event to launch the World Wide Web Foundation, a group set up to use the web to drive social and economic change, largely in the developing world.
The IGF grew out of a previous meeting called World Summit on the Information Society that was held in Tunisia in 2005.
It has more than 1,400 participants and runs from 15 to 18 November.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/technology/8361849.stm

Published: 2009/11/16 10:49:43 GMT

© BBC MMIX


Print Sponsor

Advertisement



Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab


-- 
Ahmed Swapan Mahmud
Executive Director, VOICE
House 67, Block-Ka
Pisciculture Housing Society
Shyamoli, Dhaka 1207
Bangladesh
Tel : +88-02-8158688
Cell-phone : +88-01711-881919
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Website : www.voicebd.org


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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Mon Nov 16 12:08:30 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:08:30 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <9FE188E6-F5B6-457E-B760-2FF40F937A96@ciroap.org>
References: <C7279537.803A%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <A473F76B-8783-4BD6-A713-A84774ADAC67@utoronto.ca> <9FE188E6-F5B6-457E-B760-2FF40F937A96@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <DCB2A6F7-6BD9-423D-8CD5-6507820FB9DB@ciroap.org>

On 16/11/2009, at 4:21 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:

> On 16/11/2009, at 4:14 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:
>
>> This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.   
>> We were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising  
>> anything but because of the reference to China.
>
> Tonight there is another book launch, for GISWatch 2009: http://www.giswatch.org/gisw2009/GISW2009.html 
> .  Hopefully, a poster will be erected there too.  We will see if it  
> is taken down.

http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/markus-kummers-hypocrisy

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 12:34:15 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:34:15 -0500
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <94AE9B17-54F0-41EB-AAFB-FA264AF81B2E@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <4B008A9D.6070603@cavebear.com>
	 <701af9f70911160105i48dd0a33u4d74f21fffc709e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <C041EF35EF094A08A8164D3CD7B6CF51@shahzad>
	 <94AE9B17-54F0-41EB-AAFB-FA264AF81B2E@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <45ed74050911160934t73ee4029j26e6c96a69bd19fc@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bill, I do want a flyer.  Apologies if you have already sent it here but
could you please do so again either to me, or if everyone else has it, or to
the list? Or both  - as you may wish.

Warm regards, Linda.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:46 AM, William Drake <
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> The ONI event was to publicize the book, "Access Controlled: The Shaping of
> Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace," edited by Ronald J. Deibert, John G.
> Palfrey, Rafal Rohozinski and Jonathan Zittrain.  The book will be published
> in April 2010 as part of the series I co-edit for the MIT Press on The
> Information Revolution and Global Politics.  If anyone is interested in
> knowing more or pre-ordering, please see
> http://mitpress.mit.edu/IRGP-series.
>
> Curious thing just happened.  I had put out a stack of flyers about the
> book, as well as another in the series, on the table in the back of the room
> at the session I'm now speaking in on the IG summer school program.  I
> stepped out of the room for a moment, and coming back saw three Chinese
> people standing outside the room conferring.  Walked back into the room and
> someone had removed all the flyers from the table.  I have to presume they
> are going around the building doing this.
>
> There are also flyers at the IGP booth if anyone here here wants one.  At
> least there were, not sure about now.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:
>
>   Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros Foundation or
>> Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this event. ONI
>> Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
>> University and Harvard in the US.
>>
>> best wishes and regards
>> Shahzad
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
>> To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
>>
>>
>> I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
>> network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
>> Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
>> meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
>> that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
>> Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:
>>
>> IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>> By Rabia Garib
>> 16 Nov 2009
>>
>> KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
>> Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
>> in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
>> removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.
>>
>> According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
>> reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
>> security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
>> book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
>> floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
>> and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
>> incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.
>>
>> The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
>> removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
>> apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
>> first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
>> firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
>> China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."
>>
>> "If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
>> surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
>> the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
>> the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
>> International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
>>
>> Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
>> complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
>> United Nations Human Rights Commission.
>>
>> "We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
>> someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
>> government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
>> to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
>> practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
>> views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
>> member of the ONI Network.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at the IGF
>>> because it violated some UN rule about China.
>>>
>>> We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much news
>>> out
>>> here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a
>>> sentence
>>> violated some rule or another.
>>>
>>> Anyone have more details?
>>>
>>> --karl--
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>> governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards.
>> --------------------------
>> Fouad Bajwa
>> Advisor & Researcher
>> ICT4D & Internet Governance
>> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
>> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
>> My Blog: Internet's Governance
>> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
>> Follow my Tweets:
>> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
>> MAG Interview:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
> ***********************************************************
> William J. Drake
> Senior Associate
> Centre for International Governance
> Graduate Institute of International and
>  Development Studies
> Geneva, Switzerland
> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
> www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
> ***********************************************************
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the

> CCC/UN.
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 16 12:37:03 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:37:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] What happened? Moral & ethical Commercialization
 of ???
In-Reply-To: <DCB2A6F7-6BD9-423D-8CD5-6507820FB9DB@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <879718.19328.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Are human rights for sale?  Is Internet Governance for Sale?

In fact most people working hard and with reasonable conscience get paid by someone to do such work.  So in essence Rights and Governance are for sale. Should we care if someone encroaches into this forum to sell a product to further their agenda for Rights and Governance?
 
There are a few of us that do not make this an economically influenced behavior. Jeff, myself and Karl come to mind.  However even they are "in the biz" so to speak.  Milton and Ginger survive off the "grants" "endowments" and various types of fund raising through publications.  Some here are paid by Orgs such as ICANN and the UN or a NIC or international do gooders group.
 
Is not the poster and commercializing from a more grass roots level the same thing?  Is not hawking and promoting tangible goods in order to provide funding for causes the same as working for a University or Foundation -- that raises the money through huge machines and established wealth.  
 
Certainly it is wrong to condone the paid for parry and party over to the "Neema" (sic) Bay, while accepting our brothers misfortune to raise money the old fashion way by selling something, that also raises awareness, and then condemning it.
 
I am fortunate enough to have spent some time in an Academy and earned a degree equivalent in Public Safety - common as "security". My government paid, so as to have "civilians" capable of rendering deniable criticism.  Please do not blame or elevate the hardworking flatfooted blue collar security persons to find reason or justification for actions. They are soldiers and not commanders - no one got hurt and safety was maintained.
 
I am convinced that mega-Corps, Universities and Mega-Govs spend my money to promote their Ideas. I am equally convinced that in finding respectful interface for diversity we must also respect divergent means of funding. We should be tolerant and try to find ways to incorporate the funding into the message to find a higher transparency and yet preserve purity and altruism.
 
 

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:


From: Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org>
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Cc: "Ronald Deibert" <r.deibert at utoronto.ca>
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 5:08 PM


On 16/11/2009, at 4:21 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:

> On 16/11/2009, at 4:14 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:
> 
>> This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.  We were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising anything but because of the reference to China.
> 
> Tonight there is another book launch, for GISWatch 2009: http://www.giswatch.org/gisw2009/GISW2009.html.  Hopefully, a poster will be erected there too.  We will see if it is taken down.

http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/markus-kummers-hypocrisy

--JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East    

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in 115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Mon Nov 16 12:58:40 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:58:40 -0500
Subject: [governance] What happened? Moral & ethical Commercialization of
In-Reply-To: <879718.19328.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <DCB2A6F7-6BD9-423D-8CD5-6507820FB9DB@ciroap.org>
	 <879718.19328.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45ed74050911160958x45d0f94duf2ece2db6fa5c0db@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Eric -

Natu-rally (really) I read your posts, and since you have been so kind to
promote * Respectful Interfaces*  (please join), it would be so
healthy-day-endorphin-promoting to see my name mentioned, by you, along with
others named here (just examples of course) ... and you would (will?) be
adding a woman!  And amenable to being funded.  Both.  And more.

Very best wishes,  and lets all meet up otherwhere, Linda.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Eric Dierker
<cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> Are human rights for sale?  Is Internet Governance for Sale?
>
> In fact most people working hard and with reasonable conscience get paid by
> someone to do such work.  So in essence Rights and Governance are for sale.
> Should we care if someone encroaches into this forum to sell a product to
> further their agenda for Rights and Governance?
>
> There are a few of us that do not make this an economically influenced
> behavior. Jeff, myself and Karl come to mind.  However even they are "in
> the biz" so to speak.  Milton and Ginger survive off the "grants"
> "endowments" and various types of fund raising through publications.  Some
> here are paid by Orgs such as ICANN and the UN or a NIC or international do
> gooders group.
>
> Is not the poster and commercializing from a more grass roots level the
> same thing?  Is not hawking and promoting tangible goods in order to provide
> funding for causes the same as working for a University or Foundation --
> that raises the money through huge machines and established wealth.
>
> Certainly it is wrong to condone the paid for parry and party over to the
> "Neema" (sic) Bay, while accepting our brothers misfortune to raise money
> the old fashion way by selling something, that also raises awareness, and
> then condemning it.
>
> I am fortunate enough to have spent some time in an Academy and earned a
> degree equivalent in Public Safety - common as "security". My government
> paid, so as to have "civilians" capable of rendering deniable criticism.
> Please do not blame or elevate the hardworking flatfooted blue collar
> security persons to find reason or justification for actions. They are
> soldiers and not commanders - no one got hurt and safety was maintained.
>
> I am convinced that mega-Corps, Universities and Mega-Govs spend my money
> to promote their Ideas. I am equally convinced that in finding respectful
> interface for diversity we must also respect divergent means of funding.
> We should be tolerant and try to find ways to incorporate the funding into
> the message to find a higher transparency and yet preserve purity and
> altruism.
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:
>
>
> From: Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org>
> Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Cc: "Ronald Deibert" <r.deibert at utoronto.ca>
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 5:08 PM
>
>
> On 16/11/2009, at 4:21 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
>
> > On 16/11/2009, at 4:14 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:
> >
> >> This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.  We
> were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising anything but
> because of the reference to China.
> >
> > Tonight there is another book launch, for GISWatch 2009:
> http://www.giswatch.org/gisw2009/GISW2009.html.  Hopefully, a poster will
> be erected there too.  We will see if it is taken down.
>
> http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/markus-kummers-hypocrisy
>
> --JEREMY MALCOLM
> Project Coordinator
> CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
> for Asia Pacific and the Middle East
>
> Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
> 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
> TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
> Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
> Mob: +60 12 282 5895
> Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
> www.consumersinternational.org
>
> Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global campaigning
> voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in 115 countries, we
> are building a powerful international consumer movement to help protect and
> empower consumers everywhere. For more information, visit
> www.consumersinternational.org.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the

> CCC/UN.
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From carlton.samuels at uwimona.edu.jm  Mon Nov 16 13:51:41 2009
From: carlton.samuels at uwimona.edu.jm (Carlton Samuels)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:51:41 -0500
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
In-Reply-To: <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
References: <2D590E03B3174D86A80674B71EC38FB5@shahzad>
	 <f65fb55e0911150602r4882c613idd092a08aa7c7550@mail.gmail.com>
	 <D191F77F-CBA8-48F1-A8D4-C54884706EC4@ciroap.org>
	 <701af9f70911160138o5db22471j47daedf18b791561@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <61a136f40911161051i76e0d5c0lff990a6c4f496ca3@mail.gmail.com>

Carlos:
Excellent report and very thoughtful reflections.  You have identified the
lack of a comprehensive policy perspective in the public space and that is
definitely the case in the Caribbean.

In the case of Jamaica, a few of us in the ICT4D Jamaica community is
developing a broadband policy proposal for presentation to the public
authorities. While we recognize that the market definition of broadband is
problematic for several areas of use, wireless broadband does have some
market pull.

Last mile wireline considerations remain a major obstacle to broadband
penetration and all providers blame the cost to provisioning the service. So
one of the central themes of this policy paper is a redefinition of
universal service away from the 2-wire plain old telephone service (POTS) to
broadband, whatever its provisioning method, and re-purposing the universal
access fund to support deployment at the edge.

Kind regards,
Carlton Samuels

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 5:42 AM, Carlos A. Afonso <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:

> Hi people,
>
> I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 200
> million people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 94% of the
> people do *not* have access to any form of broadband - the "B" in the famous
> BRIC acronym.
>
> I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access for a
> global Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the workshop a bit
> shocked with the concepts expressed, not by the AT&T representative (who not
> surprisingly said AT&T subdsidiaries countries other than the USA should be
> considered local companies because they employ local people), who as usual
> is just doing his job in defending the so-called "market", but by other
> speeches which seemed to completely ignore that, in most of our contries,
> there is a de facto monopoly or cartel situation regarding the telco
> infrastructure, and that public policy ought to centrally take this into
> account if the aim is to universalize broadband access with quality to all
> families.
>
> One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require lower
> costs" and therefore one should just "phase out universal access levies and
> rationalize taxes". I retorted that pricing per Mb/s of ADSL broadband in
> São Paulo might be 65 times higher than the same price charged by the same
> company in London -- and therefore no amount of levies or taxes would
> justify such scandalous pricing difference, not to speak of the much lower
> QoS.
>
> I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds (whose
> levies are a very small portion of price composition of broadband), we
> should insist on reforming policy regarding the use of these funds. The
> reply I heard was that it makes no sense to keep funds that are not used or
> are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's levy in Brazil is just 1% of the
> price of the fixed line telephone connection -- its impact in the price of
> broadband (a separate bill even if the service is not unbundled) is zero.
>
> There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to
> facilitate things regarding universalization of access -- fascinating.
> Again, examples abound in which telcos guarantee only 10% of the nominal
> contracted rate, and in practice this might be even less. Should we just
> agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is better to have something
> than nothing"???
>
> And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the policy
> debate in the developed countries as it directly impacts universalization
> through an effective reduction of prices for the final user. It is a major
> challenge for broadband public policy in developing countries, where
> regulators are usually in the hands of the telco cartels. The word was not
> mentioned (not a single time) by anyone in the panel, as if irrelevant to
> the development dimensions of broadband.
>
> The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big
> telcos would require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One of the
> two big carriers in Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns redundant fiber
> running from Brazil to Miami in rings passing through countries in the
> Caribbean and Central America. They own their own international link, in
> summary. So do the other carrier in the de facto duopoly --  a major
> operator from Europe. This does not make any difference in pricing for the
> final user, although it does contribute to their profits in Brazil being far
> higher than in Europe for example.
>
> Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker started
> his talk by waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly natural for a
> commercial wireless giant. But the infoDev representative and others
> mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the poor, and not even bothered to
> separate the discussion in the two main topics here: first, the mobile phone
> as a connectivity device to enable the user to fully use the Internet
> through a friendly human-machine interface, be it a common PC or special
> equipment for people with disabilities; second, the phone itself as *the*
> alternative to the full user experience that a PC or similar might provide.
> It seems the agency bureaucrats are satisfied with having two castes of
> users: a small minority of the ones who can fully use the Internet as it
> evolves requiring more and more multimedia capabilities on both sides
> (server and client), and the ones relegated to a small device on which it is
> barely possible to type small messages.
>
> In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a
> representative of a major telco said we should not worry about bringing the
> next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so they are connected
> already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive would take the place of
> a carpenter looking for a job, who has to compose and send by email his CV
> together with images of letters of recommendation to his would-be employer,
> and had nothing but a cell phone (smart or not) to do it. Not to speak of
> comparing the executive's thin-fingered hands of a pianist with the big
> callous hands of the carpenter.
>
> fraternal regards
>
> --c.a.
> ____________________________________________________________
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 16 13:58:32 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:58:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Gender; Moral & ethical Commercialization of  ???
In-Reply-To: <45ed74050911160958x45d0f94duf2ece2db6fa5c0db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <630022.80912.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Linda, thank you for your kind words. I am a true misfit when it comes to Gender.  I believe quite by accident I have become gender blind. My path has been long and a struggle.  We must make judgment and yet not make Judgment. I try to see gender, age, race and all that great diversity as assets.  Dare I even say,, I look at each person for what is in it for me -- I am not woman, but need my feminine side, I am not young but need a youthful perspective, I am not, but I need what I am not.
 
I do not think to be inclusive, as I cannot imagine a life of exclusive. My earlier comments were meant to draw out a rather darker side to individuals, not bad, fully necessary but lacking purity.  I guess you caught me with my primordial vestige of chauvinism exposed, I did not think to be inclusive of women when referring to the negative side of commercial survival.  I must work on that -- certainly women can be as commercially mercenary as men.

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com> wrote:


From: linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened? Moral & ethical Commercialization of ???
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: respectful.interfaces at gmail.com, "l.d. misek-falkoff" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 5:58 PM



Hi Eric -
 
Natu-rally (really) I read your posts, and since you have been so kind to promote * Respectful Interfaces*  (please join), it would be so healthy-day-endorphin-promoting to see my name mentioned, by you, along with others named here (just examples of course) ... and you would (will?) be adding a woman!  And amenable to being funded.  Both.  And more.
 
Very best wishes,  and lets all meet up otherwhere, Linda.


On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Eric Dierker <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Are human rights for sale?  Is Internet Governance for Sale?

In fact most people working hard and with reasonable conscience get paid by someone to do such work.  So in essence Rights and Governance are for sale. Should we care if someone encroaches into this forum to sell a product to further their agenda for Rights and Governance?
 
There are a few of us that do not make this an economically influenced behavior. Jeff, myself and Karl come to mind.  However even they are "in the biz" so to speak.  Milton and Ginger survive off the "grants" "endowments" and various types of fund raising through publications.  Some here are paid by Orgs such as ICANN and the UN or a NIC or international do gooders group.
 
Is not the poster and commercializing from a more grass roots level the same thing?  Is not hawking and promoting tangible goods in order to provide funding for causes the same as working for a University or Foundation -- that raises the money through huge machines and established wealth. 
 
Certainly it is wrong to condone the paid for parry and party over to the "Neema" (sic) Bay, while accepting our brothers misfortune to raise money the old fashion way by selling something, that also raises awareness, and then condemning it.
 
I am fortunate enough to have spent some time in an Academy and earned a degree equivalent in Public Safety - common as "security". My government paid, so as to have "civilians" capable of rendering deniable criticism.  Please do not blame or elevate the hardworking flatfooted blue collar security persons to find reason or justification for actions. They are soldiers and not commanders - no one got hurt and safety was maintained.
 
I am convinced that mega-Corps, Universities and Mega-Govs spend my money to promote their Ideas. I am equally convinced that in finding respectful interface for diversity we must also respect divergent means of funding. We should be tolerant and try to find ways to incorporate the funding into the message to find a higher transparency and yet preserve purity and altruism.
 
 

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org> wrote:


From: Jeremy Malcolm <jeremy at ciroap.org>
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Cc: "Ronald Deibert" <r.deibert at utoronto.ca>
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 5:08 PM


On 16/11/2009, at 4:21 PM, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:

> On 16/11/2009, at 4:14 PM, Ronald Deibert wrote:
>
>> This contains a number of inaccuracies that need to be corrected.  We were told to remove the poster not because it was advertising anything but because of the reference to China.
>
> Tonight there is another book launch, for GISWatch 2009: http://www.giswatch.org/gisw2009/GISW2009.html.  Hopefully, a poster will be erected there too.  We will see if it is taken down.

http://igfwatch.org/discussion-board/markus-kummers-hypocrisy

--JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East   

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in 115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

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-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the

> CCC/UN.
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 16 14:17:18 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:17:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] What happened? Get the Flyer & the Poster
In-Reply-To: <45ed74050911160934t73ee4029j26e6c96a69bd19fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <952237.30639.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I think there is no question that we should "support" each other. I would like to know where I can PURCHASE the books.  I would like to know where I can donate to both causes.
 
While I do not personally care for High Flouting Galas and Caucuses I am impressed by the work that is being done and the effort and commitment of so many.  To help and support even those I disagree with to convene and debate and raise awareness and lead by example, is all of our duty as Netizens and humans.
 
Those who are writing regarding the demise of the IG*.  Stand-fast.  Look for the opportunities and seize the moment given you.  The journey worth taking is filled with side trips and annoyances and distractions. Stay true to your causes. If you lead and demand and do it with good motivation you will survive, and flourish. Question Authority.  Debate the governments, challenge the naysayers, yours is a truly just cause. Have faith in the goodness of woman and man's ability to recognize good.
 
*"the report of my death is greatly exaggerated" - as you can see.

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com> wrote:


From: linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "William Drake" <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch>
Cc: respectful.interfaces at gmail.com, "l.d. misek-falkoff" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 5:34 PM



Hi Bill, I do want a flyer.  Apologies if you have already sent it here but could you please do so again either to me, or if everyone else has it, or to the list? Or both  - as you may wish.
 
Warm regards, Linda.


On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:46 AM, William Drake <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:

Hello,

The ONI event was to publicize the book, "Access Controlled: The Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace," edited by Ronald J. Deibert, John G. Palfrey, Rafal Rohozinski and Jonathan Zittrain.  The book will be published in April 2010 as part of the series I co-edit for the MIT Press on The Information Revolution and Global Politics.  If anyone is interested in knowing more or pre-ordering, please see http://mitpress.mit.edu/IRGP-series.

Curious thing just happened.  I had put out a stack of flyers about the book, as well as another in the series, on the table in the back of the room at the session I'm now speaking in on the IG summer school program.  I stepped out of the room for a moment, and coming back saw three Chinese people standing outside the room conferring.  Walked back into the room and someone had removed all the flyers from the table.  I have to presume they are going around the building doing this.

There are also flyers at the IGP booth if anyone here here wants one.  At least there were, not sure about now.

Best,

Bill 



On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Shahzad Ahmad wrote:





Dear Colleagues,

Just to keep the facts straight... the Network of the Soros Foundation or
Open Society Institute) has nothing to do with ONI Asia or this event. ONI
Asia is an independent network of researchers supported by Toronto
University and Harvard in the US.

best wishes and regards
Shahzad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa at gmail.com>
To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl at cavebear.com>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?


I am at the IGF and heard about this issue that during the ONI open
network initiative (of the network of the Soros Foundation/Open
Society Institute) workshop in the morning. The issue arose when the
meeting was disrupted by UN officials who demanded removal of a poster
that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.. Here is the post by the
Pakistani Civil Society at the IGF:

IGF 2009 event rattled by UN Security Office
"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.
By Rabia Garib
16 Nov 2009

KARACHI, 15 NOVEMBER 2009 - An anti-censorship group holding an event
Sunday at the United Nations-sponsored Internet Governance Forum (IGF)
in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt, was disrupted by UN officials who demanded
removal of a poster that mentioned Internet firewalls in China.

According to a Pakistani delegate, Shahzad Ahmed of Bytesforall.net, a
reception hosted by Open Net Initiative (ONI) was rattled by IGF
security, who objected to a poster advertising "Access Controlled", a
book being introduced at the event. "The poster was thrown on the
floor and we were told to remove it because of the reference to China
and Tibet. We refused, and security guards came and removed it. The
incident was witnessed by many," Ahmed reported.

The poster promoting ONI's forthcoming book, "Access Controlled" was
removed by the IGF's organizers because a sentence in the poster
apparently violated UN policy. The sentence in question reads, "The
first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
firewalls at key Internet gateways; China's famous "Great Firewall of
China" is one of the first national Internet filtering systems."

"If we cannot discuss topics about Internet censorship and
surveillance policy at a forum about Internet governance then what is
the point of something like the IGF," said Ron Deibert, director of
the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for
International Studies and one of ONI's principal investigators.

Deibert, one of the organizers of the reception, said he will file a
complaint against the censorship of the event and send it to the
United Nations Human Rights Commission.

"We condemn this undemocratic act of censoring our event just because
someone is trying to impress or be in the good graces of the Chinese
government. It is ironic that while people are allowed to gather here
to discuss freedom of expression online, censorship and surveillance
practices on the Internet, we are being restricted in expressing our
views," said Al Alegre of the Foundation for Media Alternatives, a
member of the ONI Network.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:


News is just filtering out about the teardown of a book poster at the IGF
because it violated some UN rule about China.

We've seen videos of the teardown of the sign but there's not much news
out
here about the why except that it was done by UN security because a
sentence
violated some rule or another.

Anyone have more details?

--karl--

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-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Senior Associate
Centre for International Governance
Graduate Institute of International and
 Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
*********************************************************** 





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-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the

> CCC/UN.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 16 14:43:38 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:43:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
In-Reply-To: <3612649B-7B7D-4DFB-954A-BF1B55A5AF53@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <214227.34117.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

You would do well and somehow politically "apologize" or at least retract and rephrase a subject line that calls another a liar.  I do believe it hurts your cause and a re-organization of words could be a great tool to draw even more proper attention to your agenda.
 
It is hard to be sympathetic and lend support to a person who causes hurt to another -- no matter the truth.

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca> wrote:


From: Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca>
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 3:11 PM


Hi Governance list.


Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters.    It is hard to keep up now with the IGF spin being put on the event.  So I think I'll just back off now and resign to whatever happens.  Hope the truth wins out, but it looks as though Markus Kummer is intent on spreading falsehoods.


It is contrary to what I've said from the beginning, contrary to what I've posted on my blog and contrary to what I posted on this very list this morning, as well as posting on the comment section of Boing Boing (for what that is worth).  


I really wish Markus Kummer would stop spreading falsehoods about what I have or have not said -- and what did or did not happen at the event.  He was not even there.  Many on this list were though and are now re-telling what they witnessed themselves.  (My facts are re-pasted again after the reporter's query).






Hi,

i have reported on the "incident" at he IGF for heise online in one of my
IGF stories. Now I get a completely different stories from Markus Kummer and
want to follow up with you asking:

1. Kummer says it is a rule that no posters would be placed outside of
meeting rooms, this was the rule. You said UN officials pointed to  request
from China. So what do you say to Kummers reaction?
2. Kummer said that UN oficials did not take the poster down, and by saying
so you created a false impression, that could even be said to be
manipulative. How would you react?

best,

Monika


Monika Ermert eLance Journalist
monika at ermert.info Skype: m.ermert
+49 (0) 173 6617763 +49 (0) 89 63850014
Croissant-Rust-Str. 15 81243 München


1. We were told that the banner had to be removed because of the reference to China. This was repeated on several occasions, in front of about two dozen witnesses and officials, including the UN Special Rapporteur For Human Rights, who asked that I send in a formal letter of complaint.

2. Earlier, the same officials asked us to stop circulating a small invite to the event because it contained a mention of Tibet. They even underlined it in showing it to me. Because the event was just about to start, we said that we would not be distributing any more of these invitations so it was a moot point.

3. We asked repeatedly to see any rules or regulations governing this act. They did not give us any, only referring to the "objections of a member state."

4. There were in fact many posters and banners in many of the rooms that I attended, including others in our own. The video itself shows us, at one point, taking one of the other posters we have and offering to cover up the original one. They objected to that and told us this banner must be removed.

On another matter of clarification:

The UN officials did not throw the banner on the ground. They asked us to remove it and one of our staff placed it on the ground for us to consider what to do. That's where we had the discussion. When we refused to remove it, their security guards bundled it up and took it away.





Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab




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From r.deibert at utoronto.ca  Mon Nov 16 15:04:11 2009
From: r.deibert at utoronto.ca (Ronald Deibert)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:04:11 +0200
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
In-Reply-To: <214227.34117.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <214227.34117.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <159E434A-6E47-452A-9097-52B89C766328@utoronto.ca>

Hello Erik

You are correct: I apologize for not being more diplomatic in my  
subject header. At the time earlier today I was being blitzed by  
inaccuracies about what happened and what we were purportedly saying  
that were being attributed to Mr. Kummer.  Clearly, an IGF spin was  
being spun that was not correct and I felt this was not appropriate at  
all for this to be going on.

As far as I am concerned, the incident is history. The different views  
of what happened are out there and people can draw the conclusions  
they want to draw.

I just want to say that I made a mistake posting Monika's query to the  
list like this.  That was not necessary, so apologies to Monika.

Best wishes everyone and good luck with the rest of the IGF.

Ron

On 16-Nov-09, at 9:43 PM, Eric Dierker wrote:

> You would do well and somehow politically "apologize" or at least  
> retract and rephrase a subject line that calls another a liar.  I do  
> believe it hurts your cause and a re-organization of words could be  
> a great tool to draw even more proper attention to your agenda.
>
> It is hard to be sympathetic and lend support to a person who causes  
> hurt to another -- no matter the truth.
>
> --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> From: Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca>
> Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 3:11 PM
>
> Hi Governance list.
>
> Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters.    It is hard  
> to keep up now with the IGF spin being put on the event.  So I think  
> I'll just back off now and resign to whatever happens.  Hope the  
> truth wins out, but it looks as though Markus Kummer is intent on  
> spreading falsehoods.
>
> It is contrary to what I've said from the beginning, contrary to  
> what I've posted on my blog and contrary to what I posted on this  
> very list this morning, as well as posting on the comment section of  
> Boing Boing (for what that is worth).
>
> I really wish Markus Kummer would stop spreading falsehoods about  
> what I have or have not said -- and what did or did not happen at  
> the event.  He was not even there.  Many on this list were though  
> and are now re-telling what they witnessed themselves.  (My facts  
> are re-pasted again after the reporter's query).
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> i have reported on the "incident" at he IGF for heise online in one  
> of my
> IGF stories. Now I get a completely different stories from Markus  
> Kummer and
> want to follow up with you asking:
>
> 1. Kummer says it is a rule that no posters would be placed outside of
> meeting rooms, this was the rule. You said UN officials pointed to   
> request
> from China. So what do you say to Kummers reaction?
> 2. Kummer said that UN oficials did not take the poster down, and by  
> saying
> so you created a false impression, that could even be said to be
> manipulative. How would you react?
>
> best,
>
> Monika
>
>
> Monika Ermert eLance Journalist
> monika at ermert.info Skype: m.ermert
> +49 (0) 173 6617763 +49 (0) 89 63850014
> Croissant-Rust-Str. 15 81243 München
>
> 1. We were told that the banner had to be removed because of the  
> reference to China. This was repeated on several occasions, in front  
> of about two dozen witnesses and officials, including the UN Special  
> Rapporteur For Human Rights, who asked that I send in a formal  
> letter of complaint.
>
> 2. Earlier, the same officials asked us to stop circulating a small  
> invite to the event because it contained a mention of Tibet. They  
> even underlined it in showing it to me. Because the event was just  
> about to start, we said that we would not be distributing any more  
> of these invitations so it was a moot point.
>
> 3. We asked repeatedly to see any rules or regulations governing  
> this act. They did not give us any, only referring to the  
> "objections of a member state."
>
> 4. There were in fact many posters and banners in many of the rooms  
> that I attended, including others in our own. The video itself shows  
> us, at one point, taking one of the other posters we have and  
> offering to cover up the original one. They objected to that and  
> told us this banner must be removed.
>
> On another matter of clarification:
>
> The UN officials did not throw the banner on the ground. They asked  
> us to remove it and one of our staff placed it on the ground for us  
> to consider what to do. That's where we had the discussion. When we  
> refused to remove it, their security guards bundled it up and took  
> it away.
>
> Ronald J. Deibert
> Director, The Citizen Lab
> Munk Centre for International Studies
> University of Toronto
> r.deibert at utoronto.ca
> http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
> twitter.com/citizenlab
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab



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From jlfullsack at orange.fr  Mon Nov 16 17:35:28 2009
From: jlfullsack at orange.fr (Jean-Louis FULLSACK)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:35:28 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa?
In-Reply-To: <a6bc8cb30911160012n509789eai67eff5ce4feca265@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1162422.1258316626537.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 <a6bc8cb30911160012n509789eai67eff5ce4feca265@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5256042.169793.1258410928856.JavaMail.www@wwinf1g22>


Bonsoir Aaron

(j'écris en français car cela semble être notre langue commune)

Autant je suis d'accord avec vous pour condamner l'action prédatrice de la "Françafrique" sur votre continent depuis des décennies (voire plus loin mais cela est un autre débat), autant je suis désolé de ne pas partager votre opinion sur au moins deux points.

Le premier point :
En Guinée, Dadis Camara n'a pas eu besoin de la France pour perpétrer ses crimes contre son propre peuple : à ma connaissance les victimes du stade n'ont pas été tuées avec des armes françaises et cela a été attesté par la presse africaine. Par contre, dès que l'Union européenne a pris des sanctions contre la Guinée pour condamner ce crime organisé par leur président autoproclamé, la Chine s'est précipitée au secours de Dadis Camara pour "offrir" (si on peut dire) sa collaboration et ses services. Ce sera le pillage de la bauxite comme en Zambie c'est celui du cuivre depuis deux ans. Il faudrait demander au peuple zambien ce qu'il pense d'une telle "aide".

Le deuxième point :
En France et plus généralement en Europe il ya des organisations de la SC dont une partie est fortement imprégnée du devoir de solidarité entre peuples du "Nord" et du "Sud" et en particulier l'Afrique. Mieux, ces associations comptent des militants voire des responsables africains qui secouent leurs responsables politiques -nationaux et européens- et agissent dans leurs domaines respectifs en offrant (dans le plein sens du mot) leur compétence, leur expérience et leur temps voire leur personne afin de contribuer à la solution progressive des problèmes majeurs avec leurs partenaires de la SC africaine, des associations de village jusqu'à celles actives dans le domaine de l'enseignement supérieur, en passant par les TIC et ... l'accès de ceux qui le désirent et en ont besoin à l'Internet. La gouvernance de l'Internet est donc de facto un problème que nous devons aborder en commun, auquel nous pouvons réfléchir ensemble, et auquel nous devons donner des réponses adaptées aux situations respectives. 

Le schéma de coopération, de collaboration et d'interaction entre nos associations en Europe et en Afrique est donc une voie vertueuse dans la mesure où nous tous y veillons, et elle aura des résultats pour les peuples africains dans la mesure où nous tous nous nous y engageons. 

C'est ce que l'association CSDPTT que j'ai eu l'honneur de présider pendant cinq ans a démontré par son action réelle sur le terrain et ce que l'association CESIR dont je suis un des co-animateurs avec Christian Nguekeng se propose de faire avec votre soutien. Et je peux ajouter que dans ma ville de Strasbourg où plus de cinq mille jeunes africains étudient à l'Université, nous nous retrouvons fréquement dans diverses organisations -y compris de jumelage- pour entretenir ces liens forts qui nous relient à l'Afrique. 

Je souhaite que mes propos vous ont enlevé quelques soupçons et donné l'espoir d'un travail en commun futur, au bénéfice de vos soeurs et vos frères.

Bien cordialement à vous

Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT et CESIR 




> Message du 16/11/09 09:13
> De : "Nyangkwe Agien Aaron" 
> A : "Jeffrey A. Williams" 
> Copie à : governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Lohento Ken" 
> Objet : Re: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa?
> 
> Jeffrey wrote
> 
Ergo expecting assistance from the west as you suggest may be a slippery slope and not generate the kind of assistance you seem to be asking for.
> 
> My appeal is to the international community as a whole and not only the West.That is calling for a win-win collaboration. As an African I can tell you that we are already to the fill with the "West". You can name SAPs, Democracy proclaimed at the door and, dictatorship and profligacy whispered through the window. You can say like De gaulle that "in international relations there are no permanent friends but permanent interest".
> 
> Finally, I agree with you that we have to solve our ligitimacy problems ourselves as nothing could be expected from the "West"
> 
> But we expect an outcry from the international community when a Western country (France) destroy the Airforce of an independent country (Côte d'Ivoire) or teleguide what is now known as the polgrom of Dada Camara's Guinea because contracts are awarded to China
> 
> Warmly
> 
> Aaron
> 
> 
On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jeffrey A. Williams  wrote:
> 
> Nyangkwe and all,
> 
> Unfortunately many in the west face the same ligitimacy considerations but perhaps to a lessor
> degree, as you articulate is being faced or recognized in Africa. Ergo expecting assistance
> from the west as you suggest may be a slippery slope and not generate the kind of assistance
> you seem to be asking for.
> 
> This said, Africa will need to solve it's own governmental ligitimacy problems and expect little
> to no significant positive help from the west. Perhaps the EU can aid Africa in this regard, but
> again some of the same ligitimacy problems exist or are precieved in the EU as well.
> 
> 
> 
-----Original Message----- 
> From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron 
> Sent: Nov 15, 2009 3:21 AM 
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, Lohento Ken 
> Subject: Re: [governance] the IGF : what does it mean for Africa? 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> Thanks Ken for the research
> 
> However:
> 
The involvement of the academia is laking, as well that of regional economic organizations (ECOWAS, SADC, etc.), maybe because governments seems less interested in the process.
> 
> This is due to the fact nearly all the governments of the regions are illigitimate and have less concern for issues that concern those governed
> 
> The mandate of the Forum (which is not seen as a space for solutions that Africa is urgently longing for), due to the basic access to ICT needs and to the crucial need to strengthen internet governance on the continent,
> 
> You hit the nail square Ken. 
> Capacity building is what is mostly needed here. Internet access dispite the availability of a down stream optical fibre that is not optimally exploited (nobody know why, may be reason is due my remarks above) 
> May I say that after a Marshall plan to rebuild Europe after the second world war, we need an ICT plan for Africa that includes AN EFFECTIVE ROUTING OUT OF ILLIGIMATE GOVERNMENTS SUPPORTED BY THE WEST.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Aaron 
> 

> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Lohento Ken  wrote:
> 
Dear all,
> 
> One the eve of Egypt 2009, for your info, this article I wrote on the IGF and Africa - in French however, but please find a summary in English below - our list/caucus is somehow concerned - comments welcome - Regards KL
> 
> The Internet Governance Forum: what does it mean for Africa? - Octobre 2009 - working document in French - Download here http://www.iafric.net/benin/gouvernanceinternet.html
> 
> SUMMARY
> 
> This article seeks to understand the representation and interest of the IGF process within the African ICT community, and to give illustrations of its eventual impact. To do this, we, primarily, have analyzed exchanges on two key discussion lists on which African views on Internet governance are conveyed. To complement and validate if necessary observations, we have consulted some documents produced by some players and have questioned others. We have also based conclusions on our observation of the process since its launch in 2006.
> 
> The two lists analyzed are a panAfrican list (the AfrICANN list, created by the AfriNIC, the body responsible for managing IP and ASN addresses for the continent) and an international list (the Governance list, a discussion space for the international civil society Internet Governance Caucus). The first space was analyzed during six months (November 2008 - April 2009) and the second during a year (May 2008 - April 2009). These lists are two public lists, the most relevant for our analysis. It has been observed only 7% of contributions dealt with IGF on the AfrICANN in the period; this figure shows an interest in the international process, but it is minimal, on a space that gathered key African ICT governance players. However, as contributions on other subjects discussed on the list illustrates, Internet Governance as an issue is of a strong concern, specifically when it relates to its consolidation in Africa. “Localising IGF” has then become a common leitmotiv on the continent. From another point of view, 5.43% of the Internet Governance Caucus list came from African subscribers during the twelve months analyzed. This figure is at least below the continent's presence on this space (about 10%). However, it has to be stressed that Africa do contributes to life in this group at all levels, including during development of contributions submitted to IGF. On both lists, the feeble African participation that may be understood by several factors is regretted, by African stakeholders themselves first of all, and calls for reversing this trend are often made. All these conclusions are validated by the observation of the whole process, the analysis of some written productions and discussions with some key actors.
> 
> A main conclusion after this research is that, although Africa contributes and participates in IGF in different manners and for various reasons, its interest in the international process is minimal; this is due to the mandate of the Forum (which is not seen as a space for solutions that Africa is urgently longing for), due to the basic access to ICT needs and to the crucial need to strengthen internet governance on the continent, which is seen as a greater priority. In addition, the involvement of the academia is laking, as well that of regional economic organizations (ECOWAS, SADC, etc.), maybe because governments seems less interested in the process. The other main conclusion is that, capacity building for some African ICT actors, and the increased awareness on the importance of the multi-stakeholder approach in policy making the sector, are seen as the key advantages gained from the international process.
> 
> It is therefore crucial, in this period of mid-term “evaluation” of IGF, and some days before its fourth annual meeting organized in Africa, that mechanisms that support capacity building are strengthened and made more visible, if further enhancing the importance of the international process in the eyes of actors of the continent is an aim.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> governance at lists.cpsr.org
> 
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> 
For all list information and functions, see:
> http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> 
> 
> 

> -- 
> Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
> Journalist-OutCome Mapper
> Special Assistant The President
> ASAFE
> P.O.Box 5213
> Douala-Cameroon
> 
> Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
> Fax. 237 3342 29 70
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jeffrey A. Williams
> Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 294k members/stakeholders strong!)
> "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
> Abraham Lincoln
> 
> "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very
> often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt
> 
> "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability
> depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
> P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
> United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
> ===============================================================
> Updated 1/26/04
> CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of
> Information Network Eng. INEG. INC.
> ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1 at ix.netcom.com
> Phone: 214-244-4827
> 

> 

> -- 
> Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
> Journalist-OutCome Mapper
> Special Assistant The President
> ASAFE
> P.O.Box 5213
> Douala-Cameroon
> 
> Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
> Fax. 237 3342 29 70
> 
>
> [ message-footer.txt (0.3 Ko) ]
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 16 20:17:32 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:17:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] 
In-Reply-To: <159E434A-6E47-452A-9097-52B89C766328@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <928805.47746.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Prof.
 
You are a credit to your cause.  I applaud your sincerity.  

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca> wrote:


From: Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 8:04 PM


Hello Erik


You are correct: I apologize for not being more diplomatic in my subject header. At the time earlier today I was being blitzed by inaccuracies about what happened and what we were purportedly saying that were being attributed to Mr. Kummer.  Clearly, an IGF spin was being spun that was not correct and I felt this was not appropriate at all for this to be going on.


As far as I am concerned, the incident is history. The different views of what happened are out there and people can draw the conclusions they want to draw.  


I just want to say that I made a mistake posting Monika's query to the list like this.  That was not necessary, so apologies to Monika.


Best wishes everyone and good luck with the rest of the IGF.


Ron





On 16-Nov-09, at 9:43 PM, Eric Dierker wrote:






You would do well and somehow politically "apologize" or at least retract and rephrase a subject line that calls another a liar.  I do believe it hurts your cause and a re-organization of words could be a great tool to draw even more proper attention to your agenda.
 
It is hard to be sympathetic and lend support to a person who causes hurt to another -- no matter the truth.

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca> wrote:


From: Ronald Deibert <r.deibert at utoronto.ca>
Subject: [governance] Markus Kummer Spreading Falsehood
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 3:11 PM


Hi Governance list. 


Below is typical of what I'm receiving from reporters.    It is hard to keep up now with the IGF spin being put on the event.  So I think I'll just back off now and resign to whatever happens.  Hope the truth wins out, but it looks as though Markus Kummer is intent on spreading falsehoods.


It is contrary to what I've said from the beginning, contrary to what I've posted on my blog and contrary to what I posted on this very list this morning, as well as posting on the comment section of Boing Boing (for what that is worth).  


I really wish Markus Kummer would stop spreading falsehoods about what I have or have not said -- and what did or did not happen at the event.  He was not even there.  Many on this list were though and are now re-telling what they witnessed themselves.  (My facts are re-pasted again after the reporter's query).






Hi,

i have reported on the "incident" at he IGF for heise online in one of my
IGF stories. Now I get a completely different stories from Markus Kummer and
want to follow up with you asking:

1. Kummer says it is a rule that no posters would be placed outside of
meeting rooms, this was the rule. You said UN officials pointed to  request
from China. So what do you say to Kummers reaction?
2. Kummer said that UN oficials did not take the poster down, and by saying
so you created a false impression, that could even be said to be
manipulative. How would you react?

best,

Monika


Monika Ermert eLance Journalist
monika at ermert.info Skype: m.ermert
+49 (0) 173 6617763 +49 (0) 89 63850014
Croissant-Rust-Str. 15 81243 München


1. We were told that the banner had to be removed because of the reference to China. This was repeated on several occasions, in front of about two dozen witnesses and officials, including the UN Special Rapporteur For Human Rights, who asked that I send in a formal letter of complaint.

2. Earlier, the same officials asked us to stop circulating a small invite to the event because it contained a mention of Tibet. They even underlined it in showing it to me. Because the event was just about to start, we said that we would not be distributing any more of these invitations so it was a moot point.

3. We asked repeatedly to see any rules or regulations governing this act. They did not give us any, only referring to the "objections of a member state."

4. There were in fact many posters and banners in many of the rooms that I attended, including others in our own. The video itself shows us, at one point, taking one of the other posters we have and offering to cover up the original one. They objected to that and told us this banner must be removed.

On another matter of clarification:

The UN officials did not throw the banner on the ground. They asked us to remove it and one of our staff placed it on the ground for us to consider what to do. That's where we had the discussion. When we refused to remove it, their security guards bundled it up and took it away.





Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab




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Ronald J. Deibert
Director, The Citizen Lab
Munk Centre for International Studies
University of Toronto
r.deibert at utoronto.ca
http://deibert.citizenlab.org/
twitter.com/citizenlab




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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Mon Nov 16 21:28:17 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:28:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] ObaMao underwear now at Walmart!
Message-ID: <sympa.1258424347.48645.837@lists.cpsr.org>

ObaMao underwear available at Walmart for the Christmas shopping season! 

Re:

'ObaMao' artwork tests limits of free speech in China

LA Times:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/11/obamao-artwork-tests-limits-of-free-speech-in-china.html

The entrepreneur who supports 'ObaMao'

China Daily:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2009-09/18/content_8707133.htm

-30-
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Tue Nov 17 01:18:05 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:18:05 +1100
Subject: FW: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <C727D6D7.806D%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <C7288B4D.80A7%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Sorry, I thought I posted this last night. Anyway here is an update and
clarification.


> 
> Here is a quick update on this following a brief meeting with Markus Kummer
> (also attended by Swedish Government who were expressing similar concerns)
> 
> 1. IGF Secretariat were fully responsible for the actions. The host country
> were not involved in any way.
> 2. IGF Secretariat acted in response to a complaint from a member state. In
> the UN system if there is any breach involved they have no choice but to act.
> 3. They did order removal of the poster and can point to precedents as to why
> in the context of a complaint they needed to order removal of the poster.
> 4. In no way were they trying to cancel the workshop or prohibit any freedom
> of expression in their actions. They were doing what they felt was necessary
> in the context of a complaint from a member state.
> 
> I suggested to Markus that they needed to convey this information to the media
> . I strongly suggested this and that they clarify previous statements
> 
> 
> 


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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Nov 17 01:53:22 2009
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:53:22 -0800
Subject: FW: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <C7288B4D.80A7%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <C7288B4D.80A7%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <4B024862.7050701@cavebear.com>

On 11/16/2009 10:18 PM, Ian Peter wrote:

>> 2. IGF Secretariat acted in response to a complaint from a member state. In
>> the UN system if there is any breach involved they have no choice but to act.

Is this a policy that is written somewhere that we can look at?

		--karl--
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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Tue Nov 17 02:00:06 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:00:06 +1100
Subject: [governance] Meeting with European Commission tonight 6pm Citadel
 Room
Message-ID: <C7289526.80B0%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Just an update that tonights meeting with the European Commission is at 6pm
in the Citadel Room. The invitation to attend is open to all IGC members.



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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Tue Nov 17 02:18:12 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:18:12 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <4B024862.7050701@cavebear.com>
References: <C7288B4D.80A7%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <4B024862.7050701@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <43385DAE-1536-491C-B886-04723352DE52@ciroap.org>

On 17/11/2009, at 8:53 AM, Karl Auerbach wrote:

> On 11/16/2009 10:18 PM, Ian Peter wrote:
>
>>> 2. IGF Secretariat acted in response to a complaint from a member  
>>> state. In
>>> the UN system if there is any breach involved they have no choice  
>>> but to act.
>
> Is this a policy that is written somewhere that we can look at?

Markus's explanation does not reassure me at all.  If there are,  
indeed, policies about the user of banners, but they are not enforced  
except when a member state complains (I obtained photographic evidence  
of this last night, which I posted to the list), this opens the door  
to all manner of abuses such as that we witnessed this week.

There are many such policies at IGF that are honoured more in the  
breach than in the observance.  For example, dynamic coalitions are  
required to post annual reports on their activities in order to remain  
listed at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/index.php/dynamiccoalitions.   
Yet, there are dynamic coalitions listed there that have not posted  
their reports.  Assuming that the coalition on Freedom of Expression  
and Freedom of the Media on the Internet is one of those that has not  
done so, China could have it removed.  Are we comforted that this  
would only happen because of the application of an existing policy?

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

____________________________________________________________
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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Tue Nov 17 02:27:46 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:27:46 +0200
Subject: [governance] Reminder: IGF workshop on a development agenda remote
 participation beginning
In-Reply-To: <78743126-2504-4F4D-A52C-AE93318DCCE6@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <78743126-2504-4F4D-A52C-AE93318DCCE6@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <FA1A4A6E-A8E2-4A12-ABBB-95A4578E8D75@graduateinstitute.ch>

For any night owls in North America or people elsewhere who are  
interested in development aspects of IG, a reminder that a remote  
participation enabled workshop is beginning in ten minutes.  Details  
and log on info below.

Bill

On Nov 10, 2009, at 5:33 PM, William Drake wrote:

> Hello,
>
> For people who will not be attending the IGF in Sharm el Sheikh,  
> there is now another remote participation opportunity, in addition  
> to the IGF main sessions and the GigaNet symposium, courtesy of  
> Derrick Cogburn and his Cotelco center.  This is the workshop I've  
> organized on, "Implementing the WSIS Principles: A Development  
> Agenda for Internet Governance."  Description and RP information are  
> below if the topic is of interest.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2009proposal
>
> Concise Description:
>
> The Tunis Agenda’s WSIS principles on Internet governance comprise  
> both procedural and substantive prescriptions. The former state that  
> governance should be conducted in a manner that is multilateral,  
> transparent, democratic, and fully inclusive of all stakeholders.  
> The latter state that governance should, inter alia, ensure an  
> equitable distribution of resources, facilitate access for all, and  
> be an essential element of a people-centred, inclusive, development- 
> oriented, and non-discriminatory information society. Taken  
> together, these latter principles suggest that Internet governance  
> should help to advance development objectives. In addition, the  
> Tunis Agenda mandates the IGF to, “Promote and assess, on an ongoing  
> basis, the embodiment of WSIS principles in Internet Governance  
> processes.” Implementing the substantive WSIS principles and this  
> element of the IGF mandate would require that stakeholders use the  
> collaborative opportunities afforded by the IGF to assess and  
> encourage governance mechanisms’ contributions to development. But  
> unfortunately, the development dimension often has been overlooked  
> in discussions of the WSIS principles and the IGF mandate.  
> Accordingly, this workshop will help redress the problem by  
> fostering a dialogue that takes seriously the concept of IG4D and by  
> exploring ways to promote its realization in both the IGF and  
> Internet governance mechanisms.
>
> More specifically, the workshop will consider the possible  
> establishment of a development agenda for Internet governance that  
> would facilitate implementation of the WSIS principles and the IGF  
> mandate. A development agenda is a holistic program of analysis and  
> action intended to mainstream development considerations into the  
> procedures and policy outputs of global governance mechanisms. While  
> there have been concerted efforts to pursue such agendas in the  
> multilateral institutions dealing with issues like international  
> trade and intellectual property, there has been no discussion of a  
> corresponding initiative for global Internet governance. With this  
> in mind, a workshop entitled “Toward a Development Agenda for  
> Internet Governance” was held at the IGF in Rio de Janeiro in 2007 http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2007report 
> . Participants considered the general desirability of pursuing a  
> development agenda and agreed that a properly configured and  
> consensual initiative could help to promote an open, accessible,  
> diverse, and secure global Internet. To carry the discussion  
> forward, a second workshop entitled “A Development Agenda for  
> Internet Governance: From Principle to Practice” was held at the IGF  
> in Hyderabad in 2008 http://tinyurl.com/devagenda-igf2008report.  
> Here participants began to explore the possible substantive focus  
> and operational aspects of a development agenda, and inter alia  
> affirmed that the IGF is the most appropriate venue in which to  
> elaborate a cross-cutting and flexible agenda that could encourage  
> development-oriented enhancements within Internet governance  
> institutions.
>
> This third workshop in the series, to be held at the IGF in Sharm el  
> Sheikh, will build on the prior discussions and seek to progress  
> consensus building in three interrelated issue-areas:
>
> 1. The substantive focus of a development agenda, i.e. the key  
> institutions and issues (pertaining both to Internet infrastructures  
> and core resources and to their use for networked information,  
> communication, and commerce) to be assessed from a developmental  
> baseline so as to identify best practices and guidelines that  
> organizations could consider employing within their respective work  
> programs.
> 2. The procedural and institutional dimensions of an agenda, e.g.  
> assessing the transparency and inclusiveness of participation, per  
> the WSIS procedural principles, from the standpoint of people- 
> centered development.
> 3. The operational aspects of pursuing an agenda in the IGF and  
> beyond, e.g. the challenges of agenda setting, building a dynamic  
> coalition and/or other collaborations, consensually defining  
> assessment criteria and modalities, aggregating and presenting  
> information, interfacing with governance stakeholders and  
> institutions, providing feed-back mechanisms for input, etc.
>
>
> Institutional Co-Sponsors
>
> •	Government of Argentina (TBC)
> •	Association for Progressive Communications
> •	Centre for International Governance, Graduate Institute for  
> International Studies
> •	Council of Europe
> •	Diplo Foundation
> •	Institute for Internet Policy & Law, Beijing Normal University
> •	Internet Society of China
> •	Federal Office of Communication, Government of Switzerland
>
>
> Scheduling and Remote Participation
>
> The workshop will be held on Day 3 of the IGF--- Tuesday 17  
> November, from 9:30-12:30 in Room 3, Suez Canal.
>
> Remote participation in the workshop will be provided for by the  
> Center for Research on Collaboratories and Technology Enhanced  
> Learning Communities at Syracuse University, USA.
>
> Information on computer system requirements and use of the  
> webconferencing technology (Elluminate Live!) is available at:
> http://giganet.igloogroups.org/remotepart
>
> Remote participation during the workshop will be available at
> https://sas.elluminate.com/m.jnlp?password=M.10FC7E24BA568E8B69C7D3F0DDC21E
>
>
> Agenda
>
> I. Welcome and Overview by the organizer
>
> William J. Drake
> Senior Associate, Center for International Governance, Graduate  
> Institute for International and Development Studies, Geneva,  
> Switzerland
>
>
> II. Panel Presentations
>
> Moderator: William J. Drake
>
> Speakers
>
> Anriette Esterhuysen
> Executive Director, Association for Progressive Communications,  
> South Africa
>
> Derrick Cogburn
> Associate Professor of International Relations, American University,  
> and Senior Scientist and Chief Research Director at the School of  
> Information Studies, Syracuse University, United States of America
>
> Olga Cavalli
> Advisor to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and representative to  
> the Governmental Advisor Committee of ICANN, Government of Argentina
>
> Christine Arida
> Director for Telecom Planning and Services, Egyptian National  
> Telecom Regulatory Authority (NTRA), Government of Egypt
>
> Alice Munyua
> Convenor, East African IGF and Kenya ICT Action Network,
> Communications Commission, Government of Kenya
>
> Hong Xue
> Professor of Law and Director of the Institute for Internet Policy &  
> Law, Beijing Normal University, China
>
> Fiona Alexander
> Associate Administrator (Head of Office) for International Affairs,
> National Telecommunications and Information Administration,  
> Department of Commerce, Government of the United States
>
> Elfa Yr Gylfadottir
> Adviser, Office of cultural affairs, Ministry of Education, Science  
> and Culture, Iceland
>
>
> III. Q&A with the Panelists
>
>
> IV. Group Discussion
>
> Possible elements of a development agenda:
>
> 1. Capacity building
> 2. Institutional/procedural issues
> 3. Substantive policy issues: Governance of infrastructures
> 4. Substantive policy issues: Governance of networked
> information, communication & commerce
>
> How to move forward with a DA:
>
> 5. In the IGF & global IG institutions
> 6. Research and capacity building
>
>
> V. Synthesis and Conclusion
>
> ***********************************************************
> William J. Drake
> Senior Associate
> Centre for International Governance
> Graduate Institute of International and
> Development Studies
> Geneva, Switzerland
> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
> www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
> ***********************************************************

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From lisa at global-partners.co.uk  Tue Nov 17 03:08:49 2009
From: lisa at global-partners.co.uk (Lisa Horner)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:08:49 -0000
Subject: [governance] What happened?
References: <C7288B4D.80A7%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <4B024862.7050701@cavebear.com> <43385DAE-1536-491C-B886-04723352DE52@ciroap.org>
Message-ID: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A01B2F9E@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>

Just to clarify - the FoE dynamic coalition has submitted reports every year.  For some reason they have not been posted on the IGF website despite requests to the secretariat for them to be put up. I'm nopt suggesting this is an expression issue though, just an administrative one.
 
All are welcome at the FoE DC meeting at 11.30 in the Siwa room - invitation below.  We can consider whether the coalition should take some kind of action on the ONI incident at the meeting.
 
All the best,
Lisa

________________________________

From: Jeremy Malcolm [mailto:jeremy at ciroap.org]
Sent: Tue 17/11/2009 07:18
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Karl Auerbach
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened?



On 17/11/2009, at 8:53 AM, Karl Auerbach wrote:

> On 11/16/2009 10:18 PM, Ian Peter wrote:
>
>>> 2. IGF Secretariat acted in response to a complaint from a member 
>>> state. In
>>> the UN system if there is any breach involved they have no choice 
>>> but to act.
>
> Is this a policy that is written somewhere that we can look at?

Markus's explanation does not reassure me at all.  If there are, 
indeed, policies about the user of banners, but they are not enforced 
except when a member state complains (I obtained photographic evidence 
of this last night, which I posted to the list), this opens the door 
to all manner of abuses such as that we witnessed this week.

There are many such policies at IGF that are honoured more in the 
breach than in the observance.  For example, dynamic coalitions are 
required to post annual reports on their activities in order to remain 
listed at http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/index.php/dynamiccoalitions.  
Yet, there are dynamic coalitions listed there that have not posted 
their reports.  Assuming that the coalition on Freedom of Expression 
and Freedom of the Media on the Internet is one of those that has not 
done so, China could have it removed.  Are we comforted that this 
would only happen because of the application of an existing policy?

--
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East   

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global 
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in 
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer 
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more 
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From bdelachapelle at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 03:19:27 2009
From: bdelachapelle at gmail.com (Bertrand de La Chapelle)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:19:27 +0100
Subject: [governance] "Governance of Social Media" workshop today at 4 pm
 in Luxor
Message-ID: <954259bd0911170019h6f95c624u2ecfdae542549444@mail.gmail.com>

*GOVERNANCE OF SOCIAL MEDIA

*
*Luxor - 4 pm - today


*
*Come and share your experiences and thoughts

                in a truly interactive workshop


            Looking forward to seeing you there

                                  Bertrand

*
**
*

*








-- 
____________________
Bertrand de La Chapelle
Délégué Spécial pour la Société de l'Information / Special Envoy for the
Information Society
Ministère des Affaires Etrangères et Européennes/ French Ministry of Foreign
and European Affairs
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32

"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint
Exupéry
("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")
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From jlfullsack at orange.fr  Tue Nov 17 03:57:05 2009
From: jlfullsack at orange.fr (Jean-Louis FULLSACK)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:57:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
In-Reply-To: <41CD1188EA634A329411092C18C0097A@userPC>
References: <4B012C87.8000901@cafonso.ca>
 <41CD1188EA634A329411092C18C0097A@userPC>
Message-ID: <28912757.166841.1258448225599.JavaMail.www@wwinf1h11>

Dear Carlos and Michael
and all members of the list

I fully af agree Michael's opinion : Carlos' analysis is an interesting point of view seeen from a DC, although Brazil is generallly ranged as an "emerging country". Anyway, this country knows a lot about "development" issues and has a lot of lessons drawn from its own experiences to teach DCs and all those -especially CS Orgs- involved in trying to find adequate solutions. 

However one major component of the "fascinating mobile solution" touted during this workshop is missed : You need a connection to a network If you want to communicate with a handy or with a machine of any kind ! And this is the point in DCs, especially in their vast remote areas where more than the half of their people are living. 

In other words, in these areas mobile isn't THE solution : it is part of the problem ! 

That's why I continously called out to the WSIS stakeholders that DCs -and most obviously the whole Africa- first need a backbone network to backhaul these remote, fixed or mobile comms to the hubs (generally cities or urban centres) where they are switched and forwarded to the recipents, wherever they are. And for giving the best chance to these rural/remote areas to join the "communicating society" the backbone networks need to be completed by a great number of spur links for serving these areas.

Of course, some of you may object that there are satellites for doing that very well. Right ! But nowhere is a satellite a "structuring" solution for a country, and second, the services offered (?) are very expensive for the populations in these areas, not to mention BB services ! 

Consequently, the main issue in these countries is the design of a most appropriate, minimal and affordable network infrastructure that irrigates sufficiently and satisfactorily the country, leaving the very excentered areas to satellite services.This was in the mind of the early designers for the African RASCOM satellite ... but this is another problem. 

The isssue is therefore a political one, i.e. a decision pertaining to the tasks of a state who is to provide basic and most useful services to its population. But designing and devising such networks and solutions (e.g. satellite) should (or at least could) be carried out through a multistakeholder approach and work, where CS orgs are the primary partners because they best know the needs of the populations concernerd.

Isn't this a purely "governance" issue, and as far as the Internet is to be the most appropriated access tool in these areas, an "Internet governance" issue ? 

Warmest regards

Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT and CESIR



> Message du 16/11/09 12:11
> De : "Michael Gurstein" 
> A : "'Carlos A. Afonso'" 
> Copie à : governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Objet : RE: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
> 
> 
> Excellent comment, Carlos! The first communication I've seen from the IGF
> that deals with issues of possible concern to the "other 5 billion...
> 
> M
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlos A. Afonso [mailto:ca at cafonso.ca] 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 5:42 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: [governance] the sad broadband workshop...
> 
> 
> Hi people,
> 
> I come from one of the ten largest economies in the world, with nearly 
> 200 million people, 8.5 million km2, and 5.564 municipalities, where 94% 
> of the people do *not* have access to any form of broadband - the "B" in 
> the famous BRIC acronym.
> 
> I am just coming out of the IGF workshop "Expanding broadband access for 
> a global Internet economy: development dimensions". I left the workshop 
> a bit shocked with the concepts expressed, not by the AT&T 
> representative (who not surprisingly said AT&T subdsidiaries countries 
> other than the USA should be considered local companies because they 
> employ local people), who as usual is just doing his job in defending 
> the so-called "market", but by other speeches which seemed to completely 
> ignore that, in most of our contries, there is a de facto monopoly or 
> cartel situation regarding the telco infrastructure, and that public 
> policy ought to centrally take this into account if the aim is to 
> universalize broadband access with quality to all families.
> 
> One of the speakers (from LIRNEasia) said that "lower prices require 
> lower costs" and therefore one should just "phase out universal access 
> levies and rationalize taxes". I retorted that pricing per Mb/s of ADSL 
> broadband in São Paulo might be 65 times higher than the same price 
> charged by the same company in London -- and therefore no amount of 
> levies or taxes would justify such scandalous pricing difference, not to 
> speak of the much lower QoS.
> 
> I suggested that, instead of eliminating the universal service funds 
> (whose levies are a very small portion of price composition of 
> broadband), we should insist on reforming policy regarding the use of 
> these funds. The reply I heard was that it makes no sense to keep funds 
> that are not used or are squandered (!!). Impact of the fund's levy in 
> Brazil is just 1% of the price of the fixed line telephone connection -- 
> its impact in the price of broadband (a separate bill even if the 
> service is not unbundled) is zero.
> 
> There was also a recommendation that we should be "gentle on QoS" to 
> facilitate things regarding universalization of access -- fascinating. 
> Again, examples abound in which telcos guarantee only 10% of the nominal 
> contracted rate, and in practice this might be even less. Should we just 
> agree with absurds like this in the name of "it is better to have 
> something than nothing"???
> 
> And then there is the crucial question of unbundling, central to the 
> policy debate in the developed countries as it directly impacts 
> universalization through an effective reduction of prices for the final 
> user. It is a major challenge for broadband public policy in developing 
> countries, where regulators are usually in the hands of the telco 
> cartels. The word was not mentioned (not a single time) by anyone in the 
> panel, as if irrelevant to the development dimensions of broadband.
> 
> The speaker also mentioned that the "need" to reduce costs for the big 
> telcos would require reduction of international bandwidth costs. One of 
> the two big carriers in Brazil, a Brazilian conglomerate, owns redundant 
> fiber running from Brazil to Miami in rings passing through countries in 
> the Caribbean and Central America. They own their own international 
> link, in summary. So do the other carrier in the de facto duopoly -- a 
> major operator from Europe. This does not make any difference in pricing 
> for the final user, although it does contribute to their profits in 
> Brazil being far higher than in Europe for example.
> 
> Finally, the fascination with mobile. Of course the AT&T speaker started 
> his talk by waving a fancy iPhone to the audience -- mostly natural for 
> a commercial wireless giant. But the infoDev representative and others 
> mentioned mobile as a "solution" for the poor, and not even bothered to 
> separate the discussion in the two main topics here: first, the mobile 
> phone as a connectivity device to enable the user to fully use the 
> Internet through a friendly human-machine interface, be it a common PC 
> or special equipment for people with disabilities; second, the phone 
> itself as *the* alternative to the full user experience that a PC or 
> similar might provide. It seems the agency bureaucrats are satisfied 
> with having two castes of users: a small minority of the ones who can 
> fully use the Internet as it evolves requiring more and more multimedia 
> capabilities on both sides (server and client), and the ones relegated 
> to a small device on which it is barely possible to type small messages.
> 
> In the first regional LA&C preparatory meeting for the IGF, in 2008, a 
> representative of a major telco said we should not worry about bringing 
> the next billion to the Internet -- they have cell phones, so they are 
> connected already, problem solved. I wonder if this executive would take 
> the place of a carpenter looking for a job, who has to compose and send 
> by email his CV together with images of letters of recommendation to his 
> would-be employer, and had nothing but a cell phone (smart or not) to do 
> it. Not to speak of comparing the executive's thin-fingered hands of a 
> pianist with the big callous hands of the carpenter.
> 
> fraternal regards
> 
> --c.a. ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Tue Nov 17 05:39:17 2009
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:39:17 -0200
Subject: FW: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <4B024862.7050701@cavebear.com>
References: <C7288B4D.80A7%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <4B024862.7050701@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <4B027D55.3060209@cafonso.ca>

Yes, Karl, this is part of the rules of any UN event, and we saw it 
being enforced in the IGF Rio quite clearly. Any poster or exhibit in 
the meeting space (which is considered a UN space during the whole 
meeting period) cannot be displayed anywhere unless previously 
negotiated with the UN authorities.

In the meeting itself, the poster was projected on the wall most of the 
time (except during the projection of a documentary), and nothing else 
happened, so in the meeting itself there was no violation of free 
expression whatsoever.

frt rgds

--c.a.

Karl Auerbach wrote:
> On 11/16/2009 10:18 PM, Ian Peter wrote:
> 
>>> 2. IGF Secretariat acted in response to a complaint from a member 
>>> state. In
>>> the UN system if there is any breach involved they have no choice but 
>>> to act.
> 
> Is this a policy that is written somewhere that we can look at?
> 
>         --karl--
> ____________________________________________________________
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From andersj at elon.edu  Tue Nov 17 06:56:27 2009
From: andersj at elon.edu (Janna Anderson)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:56:27 -0500
Subject: [governance] IGF quick questions
In-Reply-To: <4B027D55.3060209@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <C727F99B.185F6%andersj@elon.edu>

Students from Elon University's Imagining the Internet Project have been
interviewing people in the IGF Village, asking them to take a brief survey
with a few IG questions. They are preparing the information for presentation
at the US National Conferences on Undergraduate Research. Very few
undergraduates are doing research on IG. These students would appreciate it
if you might find the time to go to this Survey Monkey address to take their
survey. 

It will definitely take no more than five minutes of your time, if you are
willing:

 http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=IE0EC11dPufwiqmnXQyTAg_3d_3d

You do not have to be at Sharm to participate in the survey - completing the
survey is another great way for you to enjoy remote participation.

I will later have the students pass along their report to share with members
of the list.

Thanks very much!
Janna Anderson

Director of Imagining the Internet Center, Elon University



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From katitza at datos-personales.org  Tue Nov 17 08:14:22 2009
From: katitza at datos-personales.org (Katitza Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:14:22 +0200
Subject: [governance] Fwd: The Privacy & Security Implications of Cloud
 Computing: Super Workshop 257
References: <90AAB52E-69D6-4655-9DB4-7473BBB49B3B@datos-personales.org>
Message-ID: <C515E4EF-06DB-4E03-B620-DEB2D8C4D2E1@datos-personales.org>


The Privacy & Security Implications of Cloud Computing: Super Workshop  
257

November 17, 2009

14:30 to 17:00

International Congress Center (Room 2 Red Sea)

Panel Description

Cloud Computing and its privacy and security implications are at the  
forefront of news media debate around the world. However, only  
regulators from developed countries are discussing its privacy and  
security policy implications. In 2008-2009, the US Federal Trade  
Commission and The Ontario Privacy Commissioner have discussed the  
matter. The Council of Europe raised the question of cloud computing,  
jurisdiction and international law enforcement at its Octopus  
conference in March 2009. The OECD discussed the subject during a  
workshop organized by the Committee for Information, Computer and  
Communications Policy (ICCP) in October 2009. Civil Society has  
advocated for strong data protection laws and heightened enforcement,  
business interests dispute that regulation is necessary while law  
enforcement agencies highlight the challenges for investigating  
cybercrime and securing electronic evidence when the data is stored in  
the cloud. Those services are being used all over the world. However,  
there is a lack of understanding of the issue and a lack of  
participation by stakeholders from developing countries in this debate.

This workshop will explain the definition and various types of cloud  
computing services, and focus the policy debate on privacy and  
security risks of those services at user level. The objective is to  
understand how personal data is managed and processed, and to develop  
effective policy frameworks so that users can exercise control over  
their own personal data when that data is stored and processed in the  
cloud. It will also be discussed how the current system of mutual  
legal assistance and jurisdiction may work for law enforcement  
agencies when the data is stored in the cloud, and attempt to identify  
the policy implications of cloud computing on security, privacy and  
law enforcement. This workshop will wrap up the various discussions  
held in different venues during 2009.


Co-organizers:

Alexander SEGER, Council of Europe (CoE) [bio]
Bertrand DE LA CHAPELLE, French Ministry of Foreign and European Affairs
Katitza RODRÍGUEZ, Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) [bio]
Graciela SELAIMEN, Estudos e Formação da Rits (NUPEF/RITS) [bio].
Pamela JONES HARBOUR, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) [bio]


Chair:

Cristos VELASCO, North American Consumer Project on Electronic  
Commerce (NACPEC) and Ciberdelincuencia.Org (Mexico) [bio]
Discussants:

Pamela JONES HARBOUR, Commissioner. Federal Trade Commission. [bio]
Joseph H. ALHADEFF, Vice President for Global Public Policy and Chief  
Privacy Officer, Oracle Corporation, Chair of BIAC's Information,  
Computer and Communication (ICCP) Committee, Vice Chair of ICC's  
Commission on E-Business, IT and Telecoms; [bio]
Jean Marc Dinant, University of Namur (Belgium), Expert Council of  
Europe
Michael THATCHER, Regional Technology Officer, MEA, Microsoft  
Corporation [bio];
Laurent BERNAT, Principal Assistant within the Science, Technology and  
Industry Branch of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and  
Development (OECD) [bio]
Katitza RODRIGUEZ, Director, EPIC International Privacy Program[bio];
Bruce SCHNEIER, Chief Security Technology Officer of British Telecommm  
(BT)[bio]
Alexander SEGER, Head of the Economic Crime Division, Council of  
Europe [bio];
Hong XUE, Professor of Law and Director of the Institute for the  
Internet Policy & Law at Beijing Normal University [bio];
Rapporteurs

Graciela SELAIMEN, Núcleo de Pesquisas, Estudos e Formção da Rits  
[NUPEF/RITS], Brazil.

Katitza Rodriguez, Director, EPIC International Privacy Program

http://thepublicvoice.org/events/egypt09/








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From bdelachapelle at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 08:27:30 2009
From: bdelachapelle at gmail.com (Bertrand de La Chapelle)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:27:30 +0100
Subject: [governance] Apologies : "Governance of Social Media" workshop
 today at 4 : 30, NOT 4 pm
Message-ID: <954259bd0911170527v6c15fefcq27cae9bc31e65231@mail.gmail.com>

> *GOVERNANCE OF SOCIAL MEDIA
>
> *
> *Luxor - 4:30 pm - today
>
>
> *
> *Come and share your experiences and thoughts
>
>                 in a truly interactive workshop
>
>
>             Looking forward to seeing you there
>
>                                   Bertrand
>
> *
> **
> *
>
> *
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ____________________
> Bertrand de La Chapelle
> Délégué Spécial pour la Société de l'Information / Special Envoy for the
> Information Society
> Ministère des Affaires Etrangères et Européennes/ French Ministry of
> Foreign and European Affairs
> Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32
>
> "Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint
> Exupéry
> ("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")
>



-- 
____________________
Bertrand de La Chapelle
Délégué Spécial pour la Société de l'Information / Special Envoy for the
Information Society
Ministère des Affaires Etrangères et Européennes/ French Ministry of Foreign
and European Affairs
Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32

"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint
Exupéry
("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Tue Nov 17 09:47:01 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:47:01 +0500
Subject: [governance] Fw: The venue of the dinner: APC Dinner tonight! AT 8pm
Message-ID: <415E026838404A7186BF93C6E5B65B6A@shahzad>

Dear Colleauges,

All those who confirmed their participation for APC dinner, here are the
venue details.

Looking forward to see ya at the dinner.

best wishes and regards
Shahzad

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "karen banks" <karenb at gn.apc.org>

Dear all,

Happy to confirm details of tonight's dinner (Tuesday November 17th).

The dinner will be at the C-Lido Restaurant at the Grand Rotana hotel
(Shark's Bay, Sharm El Sheikh, T: 00 2 (0) 69 3602700) - from 8pm
onwards. The Grand Rotana is only 1 mile or so from the conference centre.

We will have a buffet of hot and cold meze (and there will be food for
vegetarians), in a lovely terrace restaurant on the Red Sea. The cost
will be £100 (Egyptian pounds) per person, plus drinks (lower than our
estimate yesterday).

We will need to collect the £100 for the buffet from everyone, but you
will all be able to pay for drinks yourself.

To get to the restaurant, go to the reception area of the hotel, go down
the escalators to the pool level, walk around the right of the pool to
the steps leading down to the amputheatre, walk down the stairs to the
amputheatre, which is on the sea level. Turn right and walk along the
path til you see the sign for the restaurant.

Looking forward to seeing you there, and if you haven't already, do let
me know if you plan to join us.

All the best

Karen
for APC



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From karl at cavebear.com  Tue Nov 17 13:42:54 2009
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:42:54 -0800
Subject: FW: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <4B027D55.3060209@cafonso.ca>
References: <C7288B4D.80A7%ian.peter@ianpeter.com> <4B024862.7050701@cavebear.com> <4B027D55.3060209@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <4B02EEAE.3060609@cavebear.com>

On 11/17/2009 02:39 AM, Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
> Yes, Karl, this is part of the rules of any UN event

Where are they written down and what are the limits on country 
objections to things?  Could, perhaps, a country call for the ejection 
of people, like you our me, from the IGF meetings?  Might a country 
require a person to cease wearing a button (like "Free Elbonia now!")? 
What about a laptop with a similar message pasted onto the back of its 
screen?

I am concerned here about the range and limits to these "rules".

To many of us the prime issue of governance is often more about the 
restraint of power and authority than about any particular substantive 
issue.  These events so far make me uneasy that the basic issue of 
limits on authority are, as they so often are, not addressed ... until 
too late.

		--karl--
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 17 15:49:51 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FW: [governance] What happened?
In-Reply-To: <4B02EEAE.3060609@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <348927.72427.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I think you are dancing a little around the facts.  The UN will not and does not give concrete due process and prior public clarity to their "enforcement".  While they talk and have Armed Forces that actually take life and liberty they have never stated apriori what conduct is proscribed.
There is no protocal or public manual for the restriction of corporal force.  There is no protocal or public list of activities prohibited at their events.  Even at the UN building in NY there is no do and don't list for clarity.
 
Lincoln said to the effect: obedience of the law is the greatest freedom -- The UN says "only we know the law so watch out!"
 

--- On Tue, 11/17/09, Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:


From: Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com>
Subject: Re: FW: [governance] What happened?
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 6:42 PM


On 11/17/2009 02:39 AM, Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
> Yes, Karl, this is part of the rules of any UN event

Where are they written down and what are the limits on country objections to things?  Could, perhaps, a country call for the ejection of people, like you our me, from the IGF meetings?  Might a country require a person to cease wearing a button (like "Free Elbonia now!")? What about a laptop with a similar message pasted onto the back of its screen?

I am concerned here about the range and limits to these "rules".

To many of us the prime issue of governance is often more about the restraint of power and authority than about any particular substantive issue.  These events so far make me uneasy that the basic issue of limits on authority are, as they so often are, not addressed ... until too late.

        --karl--
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Tue Nov 17 16:14:48 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:44:48 -0430
Subject: [governance] Two nominees so far for IGC co-coordinator -- Still
 open for nominations
Message-ID: <4B031248.1050103@gmail.com>

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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Wed Nov 18 01:52:02 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:52:02 +0200
Subject: [governance] Workshop invitation: Global State of Copyright and
 Access to Knowledge
Message-ID: <23A428DA-626E-44FB-B1FD-00923F3DA869@ciroap.org>

If you are in Sharm el Sheikh, please consider attending this  
workshop, co-organised by Consumers International and the African  
Copyright and A2K Project (ACA2K), in the Red Sea room today at 11:30am:

Although the Internet's reach is global, copyright laws remain  
tethered to national borders, providing different terms of protection,  
exceptions and limitations, and enforcement mechanisms. This has  
resulted in a patchwork of rights of access to copyright materials  
across the world, incorporating little regard for the special needs of  
users in developing countries. This in turn has produced both  
uncertainty amongst consumers about what the law allows, and  
contributed to their disenchantment with a legal system that often  
does not allow permit them reasonable access to materials that they  
need for their educational and cultural advancement. The Access to  
Knowledge movement is a global Internet-linked movement aiming to  
improve consumers' access to materials protected by  
copyright,including learning materials, through various mechanisms  
including law reform, education, and by addressing access barriers  
such as cost, availability and access to ICTs. This workshop will  
introduce two multi-country research programmes, one of the African  
Copyright and Access to Knowledge (ACA2K) Project, and the other of  
Consumers International (CI). These studies approach the study of  
copyright at the doctrinal and practical levels. The former  
encompasses national copyright laws, related access and case law. The  
practical component involves qualitative impact assessement interviews  
with different stakeholders to determine the impact of the legal  
framework on access. The panel at IGF Egypt 2009 will feature  
researchers from both ACA2K and CI sharing their findings and the  
policy changes necessary to ensuring access-friendly copyright  
environments.

1. Mr. Tobias Schonwetter, Faculty of Law, University of Cape Town,  
South Africa

2. Prof. Said Aghrib from Cadi Ayyad University, Marrakech, Morocco

3. Dr. Perihan Abou Zeid, Faculty of Legal Studies and International  
Relations, Pharos University, Alexandria Egypt

4. Dr. Bassem AWAD, Chief Judge at the Egyptian Ministry of Justice  
and IP Expert

5. Pranesh Prakash, Programme Manager, the Centre for Internet and  
Society, Bangalore, India

6. Jeremy Malcolm, Project Coordinator, Consumers International, Kuala  
Lumpur, Malaysia

7. Lea Shaver, Associate Research Scholar and Lecturer in Law at Yale  
Law School, New Haven, USA

8. Hempal Shrestha, Program Officer, Bellanet Asia, Kathmandu, Nepal

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

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From qshatti at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 03:12:38 2009
From: qshatti at gmail.com (Qusai AlShatti)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:12:38 +0200
Subject: [governance] Re: Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <609019df0911180012x1a28ad4fg7eb4174d625ae612@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Everybody:

The Venue for the IGC dinner tonight will be:
Abou El Sid Restaurant at Neama Bay. It is the same building where the
Hard Rock Cafe is located. The Tel#  0124061260/0693603910. Dinner
will start at 8 pm.

Looking forward to see you all there.

Qusai

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear All:
> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> tomorrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> Qusai
>
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From qshatti at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 03:26:54 2009
From: qshatti at gmail.com (Qusai AlShatti)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:26:54 +0200
Subject: [governance] The Venue for Today (Nov. 18) IGC Dinner
Message-ID: <609019df0911180026n6c2a486cl60b1d9680fe1c9f6@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Everybody:

The Venue for the IGC dinner tonight will be:
Abou El Sid Restaurant at Neama Bay. It is the same building where the
Hard Rock Cafe is located. The Tel#  0124061260/0693603910. Dinner
will start at 8 pm.

Looking forward to see you all there.

Qusai
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From tracyhackshaw at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 03:59:12 2009
From: tracyhackshaw at gmail.com (Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:59:12 -0400
Subject: [governance] Re: Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 
In-Reply-To: <609019df0911180012x1a28ad4fg7eb4174d625ae612@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <609019df0911180012x1a28ad4fg7eb4174d625ae612@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <808a83f60911180059j4807cd42jc5dc3da6275ca0bd@mail.gmail.com>

I apologize but I will not be able to make it - last airport shuttle bus
leaves at 8.45 p.m. for my midnight flight out of Sharm.

Apologies once again.

Have a great and safe time.

Tracy

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:12 AM, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Everybody:
>
> The Venue for the IGC dinner tonight will be:
> Abou El Sid Restaurant at Neama Bay. It is the same building where the
> Hard Rock Cafe is located. The Tel#  0124061260/0693603910. Dinner
> will start at 8 pm.
>
> Looking forward to see you all there.
>
> Qusai
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > Dear All:
> > A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
> > November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
> > doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Qusai
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 04:38:56 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:08:56 -0430
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
Message-ID: <4B03C0B0.3020409@gmail.com>

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From b.schombe at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 05:07:03 2009
From: b.schombe at gmail.com (Baudouin SCHOMBE)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:07:03 +0200
Subject: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November
In-Reply-To: <bf5d709e0911150821w3dec341dyc8b6ade8680c0638@mail.gmail.com>
References: <609019df0911150756p6bdb0cd6jd0cd509563725a8d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <951176.44741.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	 <bf5d709e0911150821w3dec341dyc8b6ade8680c0638@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecb172de0911180207m289f2f83y7c3f6e3e5bcbe4f1@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I must take a shuttle bus from International Congress at 5.15 pm,
unfortunatly I can't be with you in dinner.

Baudouin

2009/11/15 Hempal Shrestha <hempalshrestha at gmail.com>

> Dear Qusai,
>
> I am also planning to be there, but will be flying back on the same late
> evening. So could you confirm the timing?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Hempal Shrestha
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Jean-Yves GATETE <gate.one205 at yahoo.fr>wrote:
>
>>   Dear Qusai,
>>
>> Hope I will make it there,count me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Jean-Yves GATETE
>>
>> --- En date de : *Dim 15.11.09, Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>* a
>> écrit :
>>
>>
>> De: Qusai AlShatti <qshatti at gmail.com>
>> Objet: [governance] Planning IGC dinner on Wednesday November 18,2009
>> À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Date: Dimanche 15 Novembre 2009, 16h56
>>
>>
>> Dear All:
>> A dinner is getting planned for IGC and others on Wednesday 18th
>> November 2009. We are looking for a place in Neema Bay and we are
>> doing a head count. It is highly appreciated of you can replay by
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Qusai
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org<http://mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org<http://mc/compose?to=governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
>
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>


-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
COORDONNATEUR NATIONAL REPRONTIC
COORDONNATEUR SOUS REGIONAL ACSIS/AFRIQUE CENTRALE
MEMBRE FACILITATEUR GAID AFRIQUE
téléphone fixe: +243 1510 34 91
Téléphone mobile:+243998983491/+243999334571
                          +243811980914
email:b.schombe at gmail.com <email%3Ab.schombe at gmail.com>
blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
blog:http://educticafrique.ning.com/
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From qshatti at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 08:30:59 2009
From: qshatti at gmail.com (Qusai AlShatti)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:30:59 +0200
Subject: [governance] The Venue for Today (Nov. 18) IGC Dinner
In-Reply-To: <D2C5F29A-459B-4500-9E5C-F60EA7B0E18E@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <609019df0911180026n6c2a486cl60b1d9680fe1c9f6@mail.gmail.com>
	 <D2C5F29A-459B-4500-9E5C-F60EA7B0E18E@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <609019df0911180530o42f22120te813e62849ee41ec@mail.gmail.com>

It is between 10 to 15 min. Drive.


On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 11:32 AM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Great, thanks for doing this.
>
> I've not been downtown yet, any idea how long it takes by taxi, how much?
>
> Guess we should work out some car pooling....
>
> BD
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2009, at 10:26 AM, Qusai AlShatti wrote:
>
>> Dear Everybody:
>>
>> The Venue for the IGC dinner tonight will be:
>> Abou El Sid Restaurant at Neama Bay. It is the same building where the
>> Hard Rock Cafe is located. The Tel#  0124061260/0693603910. Dinner
>> will start at 8 pm.
>>
>> Looking forward to see you all there.
>>
>> Qusai
>
>
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From jeremy at ciroap.org  Wed Nov 18 09:33:13 2009
From: jeremy at ciroap.org (Jeremy Malcolm)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:33:13 +0200
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
In-Reply-To: <4B03C0B0.3020409@gmail.com>
References: <4B03C0B0.3020409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E7682ECE-5E24-4946-8413-3A1E67D982DF@ciroap.org>

On 18/11/2009, at 11:38 AM, Ginger Paque wrote:

> Even when a serious error is made, our reaction has to be  
> appropriate to the venue. I think that a proper statement of  
> protest, with a request for inquiry following UN protocol would have  
> gotten a more serious and favorable result than a manipulative Web  
> 2.0 reaction. If we want to be considered international policy  
> stakeholders, we have to be solid, professional and credible.

A contrary viewpoint.  Civil society did not invade the UN's sandbox,  
it invaded ours.  We are not the newcomers to Internet governance;  
indeed, we are the indigenous inhabitants of and governors of  
cyberspace.  Whilst we have acknowledged the need for multi- 
stakeholderism and indeed championed this concept, remember that the  
IGC originally opposed a United Nations home for the IGF, recognising  
the clash of cultures that would result.

You will say that, in any case, the United Nations is the venue in  
which we now find ourselves.  But then you go on to criticise civil  
society's response to the censorship of speech not within the walls  
Congress Centre in Sharm, but in cyberspace, to which UN rules of  
procedure do not extend.  Thus if our response ruffles governmental  
feathers, it is they rather than we who should adapt.

If we are to adapt to the rules of the United Nations whilst at the  
annual meetings, by self-censoring our references to particular  
countries or companies, and by accepting that procedurally neutral  
policies will be applied selectively at the whim of delegates from  
repressive regimes to produce substantively unjust results, then so  
must the UN accept that we will express ourselves online free of those  
same restraints.

-- 
JEREMY MALCOLM
Project Coordinator
CONSUMERS INTERNATIONAL-KL OFFICE
for Asia Pacific and the Middle East	

Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM
7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg
TTDI, 60000 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
Mob: +60 12 282 5895
Fax: +60 3 7726 8599
www.consumersinternational.org

Consumers International (CI) is the only independent global  
campaigning voice for consumers. With over 220 member organisations in  
115 countries, we are building a powerful international consumer  
movement to help protect and empower consumers everywhere. For more  
information, visit www.consumersinternational.org.

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From gurstein at gmail.com  Wed Nov 18 15:50:43 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:50:43 -0800
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
Message-ID: <F22C92ADBE034B888E9C1AC0E565DFA0@userPC>


> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
> to http://datafinder.worldbank.org/internet-users
> 
> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
> 
I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of relevance
to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or similalry
for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
Papua New Guineans etc.etc.

> MBG
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Thu Nov 19 00:31:53 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:31:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
In-Reply-To: E7682ECE-5E24-4946-8413-3A1E67D982DF@ciroap.org
Message-ID: <sympa.1258608468.3349.247@lists.cpsr.org>

Clarify Please, are you saying:

The IGF (Civil Society) can secede from the UN
or 
The UN can disengage the IGF (Civil Society)

(???)

--

Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
>... Whilst we have acknowledged the need for multi-stakeholderism
> and indeed championed this concept, ...

I belive the original concept behind the United Nations/League-of-Nations
was 'multi-stakeholderism', thus I can not agree with your embelishment of the
IGF
"... indeed championed this concept, ..."
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From dominica at malcolm.id.au  Thu Nov 19 01:41:48 2009
From: dominica at malcolm.id.au (dominica at malcolm.id.au)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:41:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Left Belongings in Egypt
Message-ID: <sympa.1258612865.3349.989@lists.cpsr.org>

Hi,

This is Jeremy Malcolm's wife. He sent me a text message asking me to join and
send a message to this list because he left some important items in his room.
If anyone is still in Sharm is willing to collect them for him, can you please
SMS him on +60122825895.

Thanks,
Dominica
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From nyangkweagien at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 05:42:16 2009
From: nyangkweagien at gmail.com (Nyangkwe Agien Aaron)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:42:16 +0100
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <F22C92ADBE034B888E9C1AC0E565DFA0@userPC>
References: <F22C92ADBE034B888E9C1AC0E565DFA0@userPC>
Message-ID: <a6bc8cb30911190242p1c6120dfgd4f3115c31f4edc4@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
>> to http://datafinder.worldbank.org/internet-users
>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


-- 
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
____________________________________________________________
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Thu Nov 19 10:47:08 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:47:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Tim Berners-Lee launches "WWW Foundation" at IGF 2009
Message-ID: <sympa.1258644958.24098.956@lists.cpsr.org>

Tim Berners-Lee launches "WWW Foundation" at IGF 2009
ARS Technica.com
By Janna Quitney Anderson | November 16, 2009
Reporting for http://www.elon.edu/predictions/
ibid: http://www.elon.edu/e-web/predictions/igf_egypt/default.xhtml

Art.Ref.:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/11/tim-berners-lee-launches-www-foundation-at-igf-2009.ars

-

Edited Excerpt:

... Touré [Secretary-General Hamadoun Touré] told the audience in his keynote
that “IGF is a place where we can make progress on certain topics and
introduce those mature topics into other more formal processes, arrangements
and organizations for further consideration.” 

Sha Zukang, under-secretary-general of the United Nations' Department of
Economic and Social Affairs [formerly China’s director-general for the
department of arms control in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs] said, “If you
believe the forum is valuable, I would encourage you to say so, and tell us in
what ways…If you believe that IGF has fulfilled its purpose, I would
encourage you to speak out against our extension of the mandate and tell us
why.”

The leadership of the ITU and Touré himself have made it clear that they
prefer all non-ICANN and non-WIPO policy work to fall in their court. The
government of China is one of the few IGF actors that has made it clear it does
not see IGF as effective in the ways it would like it to be effective—for
instance, being a body that supports the rights of governments to exercise the
selective blocking and filtering of Internet content. 

The final report on the efficacy and potential for the IGF’s continuance will
be handed over to Zukang, who will pass it to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon
for a decision.  ...

-30-
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Thu Nov 19 11:08:48 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:08:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <a6bc8cb30911190242p1c6120dfgd4f3115c31f4edc4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <845373.70070.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.
 
Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to inoculate thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?
 
In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any say in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be out of a job.


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM


Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
>> to http://datafinder.worldbank.org/internet-users
>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


-- 
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Thu Nov 19 11:55:07 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:55:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Tim Berners-Lee launches "WWW Foundation" at IGF
 2009
In-Reply-To: <sympa.1258644958.24098.956@lists.cpsr.org>
Message-ID: <231927.95232.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Although my heart is not truly in it, I will make a try at why this statement has some merit:
 
"""IGF as effective in the ways it would like it to be effective—for
instance, being a body that supports the rights of governments to exercise the
selective blocking and filtering of Internet content. """"
 
Governments, generally speaking are the legitimate representative bodies of the people within their jurisdictions. (one may argue -- but one cannot show another body that is more so)
 
ICANN, ITU, IGF are not designed to represent the people. They are in fact by their very nature designed to represent industry and acadamia. None of these institutions are equipped or intent on enveloping and developing the representation of citizens and consumers.  They are at best "constituency based" and at worst dictators of process and right and wrong within their fields.  These groups are mandated and exist to recommend standards and processes. They are not created for the purpose of deciding what is best for people of varying political, societal and geographic groupings.  They refuse to have open enrollment, censorfree debate, voting or provide for rights of individuals.  They intentionally and with great aplum deny direct participation by the masses.  The insist on governance through suitable cadres and elitism.
 
I will continue to push for voting rights of the masses in all arenas. I will continue to deplore censorship and the practice of denying open access to knowledge. I will rage against the machines of industry that march regardless of human devastation with only profits in view.
I will insist on open and respectful interface between machines and persons.
 
But I cannot in good conscience believe or support the notion that the IGF or any other group has the right to dictate the cultural integrity and national rights of sovereign nations within their borders.  We are here to foster and promote the beauty and truth contained within the declarations of inalienable human rights.  But we must always do so within the bounds of respect for a given people to organize and protect their country's own resources and most importantly their cultural identity, just as equally as any individual.
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From williams.deirdre at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 12:10:37 2009
From: williams.deirdre at gmail.com (Deirdre Williams)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:10:37 +0200
Subject: [governance] Left Belongings in Egypt
In-Reply-To: <sympa.1258612865.3349.989@lists.cpsr.org>
References: <sympa.1258612865.3349.989@lists.cpsr.org>
Message-ID: <fa468ac00911190910m246d270dn5b72845adc2b1297@mail.gmail.com>

Tell him this is De, I'm still here at Rehana Beach but no cell phone.
Will try to call via someone else.
I leave tomorrow on an 11am flight to London
Have taken your phone number.

2009/11/19 <dominica at malcolm.id.au>

> Hi,
>
> This is Jeremy Malcolm's wife. He sent me a text message asking me to join
> and
> send a message to this list because he left some important items in his
> room.
> If anyone is still in Sharm is willing to collect them for him, can you
> please
> SMS him on +60122825895.
>
> Thanks,
> Dominica
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
“The fundamental cure for poverty is not money but knowledge" Sir William
Arthur Lewis, Nobel Prize Economics, 1979
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 12:12:34 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:12:34 -0500
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <845373.70070.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <a6bc8cb30911190242p1c6120dfgd4f3115c31f4edc4@mail.gmail.com>
	 <845373.70070.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45ed74050911190912j178a0608r687044877ecba931@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Eric et al:

*----- *respectful  interfaces* sidebar,  subject to emendation ---*

Warm Greetings, and not being the expert a good many of you here are -
concerning the demographics of the Internet (including supply, demand,
bandwidth, other) - nonetheless the discussion is inspiring me to ask this
question.  It would be great to be more informed...

So if useful to use the transformative dialectic of Thesis, Antithesis,
Synthesis:

1.  What is the thesis to which the reaction of speciousness applies?

2.  What is the antithesis  or creatively dissenting view in the reaction
post as to the thesis?

[3.] (One can wait for synthesis, it's usually the case with dialogue, and
well worth the waiting; unless the solution-space here is already populated
and ideas synthesizing the viewpoints can be tentatively formulated).

Sincere regards, Linda.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
<cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
> service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.
>
> Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to
> inoculate thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances
> is not relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a
> telecommunication device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive
> that the telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
> Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?
>
> In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and
> those skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have
> any say in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the
> food from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of
> the homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
> without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate
> all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
> come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
> out of a job.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM
>
>
> Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
> I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
> along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
> men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
> only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
> And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!
>
> Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64
>
> Aaon
>
> On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
> >> to http://datafinder.worldbank.org/internet-users
> >>
> >> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
> >> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
> >>
> > I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
> relevance
> > to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
> similalry
> > for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> > Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
> >
> >> MBG
> >
>
>
> --
> Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
> Journalist-OutCome Mapper
> Special Assistant The President
> ASAFE
> P.O.Box 5213
> Douala-Cameroon
>
> Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
> Fax. 237 3342 29 70
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
CCC/UN.
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 14:18:11 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:18:11 -0800
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <45ed74050911190912j178a0608r687044877ecba931@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDC5E110DD4A489E8F018AA78ABB730C@userPC>

Eric,
 
I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any
perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct use
and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's
viability or value to a society."
 
Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???) but
rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern
society -- 
 
The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and
development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the
population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public and
private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible for
use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication
of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service (where
the service is available only in electronic form...
 
In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with which
I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that the 97.1% (the Cameroun)
or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able
to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,
training, and support resources that are available to those with such
access.  Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the
population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct contribution
to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social
development.  South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of
those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions
necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information
Economy.  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to
access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,
fill these slots and so on and so on.
 
All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how
disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at
the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about
issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing the
Net.
 
MBG


 
 On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
<cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.
 
Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to inoculate
thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not
relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication
device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the
telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?
 
In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those
skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any say
in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food
from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the
homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate
all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
out of a job.


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM



Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
>> to  the  
>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


--
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
CCC/UN.


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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 14:55:39 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:55:39 -0500
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <CDC5E110DD4A489E8F018AA78ABB730C@userPC>
References: <45ed74050911190912j178a0608r687044877ecba931@mail.gmail.com>
	 <CDC5E110DD4A489E8F018AA78ABB730C@userPC>
Message-ID: <45ed74050911191155x54d0a63pb5766c9d4e304099@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Michael, I was in my post, above,  also delving for a minimalist
description of the different approaches to topic here;  so if you can
clarify or wish to, in response to my post (by choice of course, and no need
to explicitly use *thesis, antithesis, synthesis* if not seeming apt)  -
thanks.

(I wouldn't ask Eric's artistic and exciting style and content to change a
whit, or his wit to subside.  But all of you here can probably parse out the
points of view for initiates upon this request; would be quite welcome).

Best wishes, Linda.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>wrote:

> Eric,
>
> I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any
> perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct
> use
> and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's
> viability or value to a society."
>
> Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???)
> but
> rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern
> society --
>
> The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and
> development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the
> population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public and
> private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible
> for
> use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication
> of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service (where
> the service is available only in electronic form...
>
> In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with
> which
> I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that the 97.1% (the
> Cameroun)
> or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able
> to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,
> training, and support resources that are available to those with such
> access.  Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the
> population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct
> contribution
> to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social
> development.  South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of
> those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions
> necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information
> Economy.  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to
> access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,
> fill these slots and so on and so on.
>
> All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how
> disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at
> the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about
> issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing
> the
> Net.
>
> MBG
>
>
>
>  On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
> <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
> service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.
>
> Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to
> inoculate
> thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not
> relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a
> telecommunication
> device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the
> telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
> Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?
>
> In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and
> those
> skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any
> say
> in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food
> from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the
> homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
> without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate
> all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
> come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
> out of a job.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM
>
>
>
> Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
> I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
> along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
> men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
> only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
> And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!
>
> Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64
>
> Aaon
>
> On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
> >> to  the
>  >>
> >> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
> >> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
> >>
> > I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
> relevance
> > to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
> similalry
> > for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> > Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
> >
> >> MBG
> >
>
>
> --
> Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
> Journalist-OutCome Mapper
> Special Assistant The President
> ASAFE
> P.O.Box 5213
> Douala-Cameroon
>
> Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
> Fax. 237 3342 29 70
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> LDMF.
> > Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> > 914 769 3652
> > law /  computing / humanities:
> > Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> > Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> > U.N.;
> > World Education Fellowship;
> > Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> > National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> > Persons with Pain Intl.;
> > ICT multiple decades;
> > Other affiliations on Request.
> >
> > n.b.:
>
> > -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> > Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> > about leadership interning).
>
> > - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
> CCC/UN.
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
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From iza at anr.org  Thu Nov 19 14:59:28 2009
From: iza at anr.org (Izumi AIZU)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 04:59:28 +0900
Subject: [governance] Future of IGF
Message-ID: <a5509d940911191159y18a58585nee036f532743fef9@mail.gmail.com>

Now that 4th IGF is over, we are entering into the consultation phase for the
future of IGF, right. I happened to meet with some Chinese government
officials here at Cairo airport lounge and asked them about their position
about the continuation of IGF.  As some of you may noticed, the statement
they made at the stock-taking pleanry was not clear.

They said China does not support the IGF to continue, and the translation
of the statement was not clear that time. So they have submitted their
written statement later.

ITU did suppor the continuation, but China pointed out that that is the
secretariat position, there has been no official resolution by the member
states of ITU.

Oh well... another round of negotiation!

izumi
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Thu Nov 19 14:59:58 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:59:58 -0500
Subject: [governance] Good "being at IGF 4 Egypt" with you Ginger. Can you
 provide names and email addys for youth workshoppers?
Message-ID: <45ed74050911191159t1911d00fr67a6d1b0d0ea57ef@mail.gmail.com>

'Twas great, wish to continue and advance the networking.

Best, Linda.

-- 
*LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request*.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of
the CCC/UN.
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 20 00:42:25 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:42:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <CDC5E110DD4A489E8F018AA78ABB730C@userPC>
Message-ID: <830807.40876.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

What my quote is pointing out is that using numbers to say that just because a large proportion of individuals do not consume the internet directly does not mean that their issues were not addressed. 
 
Just what is one of the issues that was not addressed?  Access was addressed. Pricing was addressed. Infrastructure was addressed. Censorship was addressed.

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct use and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society."
 
......  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps, fill these slots and so on and so on.


 
All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing the Net.
 
MBG




 
 On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.
 
Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to inoculate thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?
 
In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any say in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be out of a job.


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM





Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
>> to  the  
>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


--
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
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-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the  CCC/UN.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 20 02:06:01 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:06:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <45ed74050911191155x54d0a63pb5766c9d4e304099@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <364932.69713.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I believe and always have that saying things in a couple of different ways or languages or within differing social or cultural logics is most helpful. Your questions asks for a fair diagram of my antithesis in a straightforward manner. Fair enough.
 
1. Does the percentage of actual users in a given set have a significant impact on the issues presented? Mr. Gurstein makes that connection.
2. My antithesis to the positive belief of Mr. Gurstein is that it does not matter how many users there are with regard to issues presented.
3. My conclusion is that the percentage of users within any jurisdiction did not in any way influence the issues addressed most recently.
 
It is my observation that although not representative either by vote or election or life position, the members here and in general engaged in Internet Governance in fact do address the issues of the users and those effected and affected by the Internet. This suitable cadre of individuals in fact can see the large picture of protecting rights of non users as well as users and does in fact address those concerns.
 
On a more appropriate observation  -- I try very hard to remain as ignorant and ill informed as I can so that I can adequately represent others like me.

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com> wrote:


From: linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Cc: "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, "l.d. misek-falkoff" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>, respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:55 PM



Hi Michael, I was in my post, above,  also delving for a minimalist description of the different approaches to topic here;  so if you can clarify or wish to, in response to my post (by choice of course, and no need to explicitly use thesis, antithesis, synthesis if not seeming apt)  - thanks. 
 
(I wouldn't ask Eric's artistic and exciting style and content to change a whit, or his wit to subside.  But all of you here can probably parse out the points of view for initiates upon this request; would be quite welcome).   
 
Best wishes, Linda.


On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

Eric,

I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any
perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct use

and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's
viability or value to a society."

Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???) but
rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern
society --

The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and
development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the
population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public and
private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible for
use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication
of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service (where
the service is available only in electronic form...

In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with which
I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that the 97.1% (the Cameroun)
or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able
to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,
training, and support resources that are available to those with such
access.  Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the
population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct contribution
to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social
development.  South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of
those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions
necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information
Economy.  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to
access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,
fill these slots and so on and so on.

All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how
disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at
the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about
issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing the
Net.

MBG






 On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
<cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.

Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to inoculate
thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not
relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication
device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the
telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?

In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those
skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any say
in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food
from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the
homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate
all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
out of a job.


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM



Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
>> to  the



>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


--
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
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--
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
CCC/UN.


____________________________________________________________


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From ajp at glocom.ac.jp  Fri Nov 20 03:48:57 2009
From: ajp at glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:48:57 +0900
Subject: [governance] Future of IGF
In-Reply-To: <a5509d940911191159y18a58585nee036f532743fef9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5509d940911191159y18a58585nee036f532743fef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f31ae3560911200048l7925f4eft8b4c062a49d97cde@mail.gmail.com>

There was a problem with interpretation while the Chinese delegation
made their statement.  The missing sections are now online, and text
relevant to Izumi's comments are:

"Fifthly, a Bureau should be set up with a balanced membership of
various parties and geographical regions, and its term of reference
and rules of procedures should be formulated by the United Nation.

Sixthly, on tenure of the future IGF, we deem it necessary to review
the extension of the IGF every two or three years.

In the view of the Chinese delegation, the setting up of a mechanism
for Enhanced Cooperation with a reformed IGF will effectively promote
the global Internet governance process and facilitate the achievement
of Millennium Development Goals.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman."

All transcripts are now online.  There are links from the front page
of main IGF website, and from within the main session programme
<http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/2009/sharm_el_Sheikh/Programme.MainSessions.html>.
 The programme should be useful, take a look.

Draft chairman's report online (linked from main IGF page) and there
are summaries of each day available.

Adam


On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Izumi AIZU <iza at anr.org> wrote:
> Now that 4th IGF is over, we are entering into the consultation phase for the
> future of IGF, right. I happened to meet with some Chinese government
> officials here at Cairo airport lounge and asked them about their position
> about the continuation of IGF.  As some of you may noticed, the statement
> they made at the stock-taking pleanry was not clear.
>
> They said China does not support the IGF to continue, and the translation
> of the statement was not clear that time. So they have submitted their
> written statement later.
>
> ITU did suppor the continuation, but China pointed out that that is the
> secretariat position, there has been no official resolution by the member
> states of ITU.
>
> Oh well... another round of negotiation!
>
> izumi
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>
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>
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 05:09:58 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 02:09:58 -0800
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <364932.69713.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3A090CB8CEA4478889FAB7BB23490236@userPC>

Eric and all,
 
So far as I know, I/we are not dealing here with matters of formal Boolean
logic but rather concerns with the significance and impact of Internet
Governance in the real world.
 
My question was (and remains) whether the matters under discussion were of
significance to the roughly 5.5 billion without current Internet access in
the real world and not whether the issues themselves were impacted or not by
the numbers of those having Internet access, a subject which I personally
consider to be of no interest whatsoever.
 
Your arguments and the analysis of your (and my) arguments are to my mind
complete red herrings.
 
MBG

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Dierker [mailto:cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:06 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; linda misek-falkoff; Michael Gurstein
Cc: l.d. misek-falkoff; respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally



I believe and always have that saying things in a couple of different ways
or languages or within differing social or cultural logics is most helpful.
Your questions asks for a fair diagram of my antithesis in a straightforward
manner. Fair enough.
 
1. Does the percentage of actual users in a given set have a significant
impact on the issues presented? Mr. Gurstein makes that connection.
2. My antithesis to the positive belief of Mr. Gurstein is that it does not
matter how many users there are with regard to issues presented.
3. My conclusion is that the percentage of users within any jurisdiction did
not in any way influence the issues addressed most recently.
 
It is my observation that although not representative either by vote or
election or life position, the members here and in general engaged in
Internet Governance in fact do address the issues of the users and those
effected and affected by the Internet. This suitable cadre of individuals in
fact can see the large picture of protecting rights of non users as well as
users and does in fact address those concerns.
 
On a more appropriate observation  -- I try very hard to remain as ignorant
and ill informed as I can so that I can adequately represent others like me.

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com> wrote:



From: linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Cc: "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, "l.d. misek-falkoff"
<ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>, respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:55 PM


Hi Michael, I was in my post, above,  also delving for a minimalist
description of the different approaches to topic here;  so if you can
clarify or wish to, in response to my post (by choice of course, and no need
to explicitly use thesis, antithesis, synthesis if not seeming apt)  -
thanks. 
 
(I wouldn't ask Eric's artistic and exciting style and content to change a
whit, or his wit to subside.  But all of you here can probably parse out the
points of view for initiates upon this request; would be quite welcome).   
 
Best wishes, Linda.


On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com
<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein at gmail.com> > wrote:


Eric,

I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any
perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct use

and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's
viability or value to a society."


Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???) but
rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern
society --

The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and
development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the
population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public and
private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible for
use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication
of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service (where
the service is available only in electronic form...

In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with which
I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that the 97.1% (the Cameroun)
or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able
to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,
training, and support resources that are available to those with such
access.  Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the
population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct contribution
to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social
development.  South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of
those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions
necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information
Economy.  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to
access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,
fill these slots and so on and so on.

All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how
disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at
the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about
issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing the
Net.

MBG




 On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
<cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net
<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> >
wrote:


This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.

Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to inoculate
thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not
relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication
device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the
telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?

In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those
skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any say
in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food
from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the
homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate
all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
out of a job.


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com
<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nyangkweagien at gmail.com> >
wrote:


From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com
<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nyangkweagien at gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org> ,
"Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com
<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein at gmail.com> >
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM



Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com
<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein at gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go

>> to  the

>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


--
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
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--
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
CCC/UN.


____________________________________________________________




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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 20 09:11:07 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:11:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Future of IGF
In-Reply-To: <f31ae3560911200048l7925f4eft8b4c062a49d97cde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <903677.25435.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

It surely does look to me that these folks talkin bout funding and continuing the IGF are not medical doctors or truck drivers or homemakers or social workers.  Seems to me, based on how the talk that they are diplomats and politicians.
 
As I understand it diplomats and politicians are like most folks -- they have an agenda, they have wants and needs and they have something to spend.  Now this place is filled with academics, intellectuals and activists. So I think that it should be easy to figure out what these diplomats and politicians want in exchange for the IGF having a say and a seat at the table.  Here are just a few things that I think you could sell:
 
1. A robust inclusive membership whose endorsement would mean something.
 
2. Papers illuminating  - same old - Publish or Perish - perhaps a periodical or magazine.
 
3. An active uncensored forum where ideas could be floated to predetermine political viability. An open process for submission and review. Yet with deniability.
 
4. Publicity
 
these last two will bother some
 
5. Open source* access to/for lobbyists and advocates
 
6. Online voting to best gauge popularity and public opinion without mandate  -- also used for reverse marketing and promotion of the above.
 
I don't know but seems to me even Washington or Bejing or Tehran or Montevideo or New Delhi would like this resource.
 
--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> wrote:


From: Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [governance] Future of IGF
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 8:48 AM


There was a problem with interpretation while the Chinese delegation
made their statement.  The missing sections are now online, and text
relevant to Izumi's comments are:

"Fifthly, a Bureau should be set up with a balanced membership of
various parties and geographical regions, and its term of reference
and rules of procedures should be formulated by the United Nation.

Sixthly, on tenure of the future IGF, we deem it necessary to review
the extension of the IGF every two or three years.

In the view of the Chinese delegation, the setting up of a mechanism
for Enhanced Cooperation with a reformed IGF will effectively promote
the global Internet governance process and facilitate the achievement
of Millennium Development Goals.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman."

All transcripts are now online.  There are links from the front page
of main IGF website, and from within the main session programme
<http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/2009/sharm_el_Sheikh/Programme.MainSessions.html>.
The programme should be useful, take a look.

Draft chairman's report online (linked from main IGF page) and there
are summaries of each day available.

Adam


On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Izumi AIZU <iza at anr.org> wrote:
> Now that 4th IGF is over, we are entering into the consultation phase for the
> future of IGF, right. I happened to meet with some Chinese government
> officials here at Cairo airport lounge and asked them about their position
> about the continuation of IGF.  As some of you may noticed, the statement
> they made at the stock-taking pleanry was not clear.
>
> They said China does not support the IGF to continue, and the translation
> of the statement was not clear that time. So they have submitted their
> written statement later.
>
> ITU did suppor the continuation, but China pointed out that that is the
> secretariat position, there has been no official resolution by the member
> states of ITU.
>
> Oh well... another round of negotiation!
>
> izumi
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>
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>
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 20 09:18:58 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:18:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <3A090CB8CEA4478889FAB7BB23490236@userPC>
Message-ID: <745707.2064.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Perhaps then in a non boolean way you could answer the simple question;
 
What concerns of your 5.5 were not addressed?
 
Seems like your looking for a hypothetical problem. Tell us what was not addressed.
 
(please, as you pointed out this was not about medicine or public safety or plumbing -- so give us an example that is germaine to Internet Governance not tennis in the Hamptons)

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: "'Eric Dierker'" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, governance at lists.cpsr.org, "'linda misek-falkoff'" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Cc: "'l.d. misek-falkoff'" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>, respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 10:09 AM



Eric and all,
 
So far as I know, I/we are not dealing here with matters of formal Boolean logic but rather concerns with the significance and impact of Internet Governance in the real world.
 
My question was (and remains) whether the matters under discussion were of significance to the roughly 5.5 billion without current Internet access in the real world and not whether the issues themselves were impacted or not by the numbers of those having Internet access, a subject which I personally consider to be of no interest whatsoever.
 
Your arguments and the analysis of your (and my) arguments are to my mind complete red herrings.
 
MBG


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Dierker [mailto:cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:06 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; linda misek-falkoff; Michael Gurstein
Cc: l.d. misek-falkoff; respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally






I believe and always have that saying things in a couple of different ways or languages or within differing social or cultural logics is most helpful. Your questions asks for a fair diagram of my antithesis in a straightforward manner. Fair enough.
 
1. Does the percentage of actual users in a given set have a significant impact on the issues presented? Mr. Gurstein makes that connection.
2. My antithesis to the positive belief of Mr. Gurstein is that it does not matter how many users there are with regard to issues presented.
3. My conclusion is that the percentage of users within any jurisdiction did not in any way influence the issues addressed most recently.
 
It is my observation that although not representative either by vote or election or life position, the members here and in general engaged in Internet Governance in fact do address the issues of the users and those effected and affected by the Internet. This suitable cadre of individuals in fact can see the large picture of protecting rights of non users as well as users and does in fact address those concerns.
 
On a more appropriate observation  -- I try very hard to remain as ignorant and ill informed as I can so that I can adequately represent others like me.

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com> wrote:


From: linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Cc: "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, "l.d. misek-falkoff" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>, respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:55 PM



Hi Michael, I was in my post, above,  also delving for a minimalist description of the different approaches to topic here;  so if you can clarify or wish to, in response to my post (by choice of course, and no need to explicitly use thesis, antithesis, synthesis if not seeming apt)  - thanks. 
 
(I wouldn't ask Eric's artistic and exciting style and content to change a whit, or his wit to subside.  But all of you here can probably parse out the points of view for initiates upon this request; would be quite welcome).   
 
Best wishes, Linda.


On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

Eric,

I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any
perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct use

and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's
viability or value to a society."

Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???) but
rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern
society --

The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and
development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the
population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public and
private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible for
use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication
of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service (where
the service is available only in electronic form...

In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with which
I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that the 97.1% (the Cameroun)
or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able
to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,
training, and support resources that are available to those with such
access.  Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the
population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct contribution
to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social
development.  South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of
those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions
necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information
Economy.  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to
access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,
fill these slots and so on and so on.

All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how
disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at
the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about
issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing the
Net.

MBG






 On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
<cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.

Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to inoculate
thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not
relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication
device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the
telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?

In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those
skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any say
in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food
from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the
homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate
all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
out of a job.


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM



Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
>> to  the



>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


--
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
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--
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
CCC/UN.


____________________________________________________________


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From gate.one205 at yahoo.fr  Fri Nov 20 10:05:21 2009
From: gate.one205 at yahoo.fr (Jean-Yves GATETE)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:05:21 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [governance] Future of IGF
In-Reply-To: <a5509d940911191159y18a58585nee036f532743fef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <139125.17085.qm@web27803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear Izumi,
 
First,I was very glad to meet many of this list and you especially.
I followed the the stock-taking plenary as well and of course it was supporting the continuation of the IGF in grand part,but I do have a question of what could push the China not to support this important Secretariat which did such an unique event.Or as you talked with them ,they do say that it could be changed or managed or whatever,,,
For me and others,who followed the the stock-taking ,I am sure the hat was given to IGF and  hopefully it will continue...
I think that many chinese are also supporting the IGF continuation ,,,
 
Jean Yves

--- En date de : Jeu 19.11.09, Izumi AIZU <iza at anr.org> a écrit :


De: Izumi AIZU <iza at anr.org>
Objet: [governance] Future of IGF
À: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Date: Jeudi 19 Novembre 2009, 20h59


Now that 4th IGF is over, we are entering into the consultation phase for the
future of IGF, right. I happened to meet with some Chinese government
officials here at Cairo airport lounge and asked them about their position
about the continuation of IGF.  As some of you may noticed, the statement
they made at the stock-taking pleanry was not clear.

They said China does not support the IGF to continue, and the translation
of the statement was not clear that time. So they have submitted their
written statement later.

ITU did suppor the continuation, but China pointed out that that is the
secretariat position, there has been no official resolution by the member
states of ITU.

Oh well... another round of negotiation!

izumi
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From qshatti at gmail.com  Fri Nov 20 12:48:40 2009
From: qshatti at gmail.com (Qusai AlShatti)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:48:40 +0200
Subject: [governance] Future of IGF
In-Reply-To: <a5509d940911191159y18a58585nee036f532743fef9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5509d940911191159y18a58585nee036f532743fef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <609019df0911200948o598adf83o15df9861593e1c25@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All:
The ITU statement said that ITU secretariat will submit a
recommendation to member states to support the continuation (or
extension) of the IGF. I recall that what was mentioned in the ITU
intervention.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Izumi AIZU <iza at anr.org> wrote:
> Now that 4th IGF is over, we are entering into the consultation phase for the
> future of IGF, right. I happened to meet with some Chinese government
> officials here at Cairo airport lounge and asked them about their position
> about the continuation of IGF.  As some of you may noticed, the statement
> they made at the stock-taking pleanry was not clear.
>
> They said China does not support the IGF to continue, and the translation
> of the statement was not clear that time. So they have submitted their
> written statement later.
>
> ITU did suppor the continuation, but China pointed out that that is the
> secretariat position, there has been no official resolution by the member
> states of ITU.
>
> Oh well... another round of negotiation!
>
> izumi
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Sat Nov 21 10:17:53 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:17:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] New York Time's - Kristof: Boycott Bing
Message-ID: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>

NYT's Kristof: Boycott Bing
Todd Bishop on Friday, November 20, 2009

Art.Ref.:
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2009/11/nyts_kristof_calls_for_bing_boycott.html

Art.Ref.: Link Ref.
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/boycott-microsoft-bing/

-

New York Time's Kristof: Boycott Bing ...

[UPDATE, 8 p.m.: In a response to Kristof's post Friday evening, Microsoft said
it's "committed to comprehensive results" and made it clear that it believes
any problems are related to its search technology, not a purposeful attempt to
omit controversial content. Microsoft's Adam Sohn cited "some queries that
provide very balanced web results," such as a search in Simplified Chinese for
"June 4th Tiananmen."

"In addition, today’s investigations uncovered the fact that our image search
is not functioning properly for queries entered using Simplified Chinese
characters outside of the PRC. We have identified the bug and are at work on
the fix. We expect to have this done before the Thanksgiving holiday," Sohn
wrote. "Bing’s intent for these types of queries is to provide relevant and
comprehensive results for our customers."

He added, "We appreciate the dialog that Mr. Kristof has kicked off. Community
feedback and input is incredibly important to Bing – it helps us do better
and sometimes alerts us to things we can take immediate action to fix as we
continue to improve."]

Original post below. 
Microsoft's support for Referendum 71 won its Bing search engine a new fan in
David Schmader of the Stranger, but the company's Internet search practices
related to China have now lost Bing a user in Nicholas Kristof -- and the New
York Times columnist is calling on his readers to follow suit with a boycott.

Kristof's objection, outlined in a blog post this afternoon, centers around his
observation that searches conducted using simplified Chinese characters in Bing
return "sanitized pro-Communist results" not just in China but around the
world. He questions Microsoft's claim that the results are determined by search
algorithms, not its corporate policy. Here's an excerpt from his post.

If you search a term on Bing that is politically sensitive in China, in English
the results are legitimate. Search “Tiananmen” and you’ll find out about
the army firing on pro-democracy protesters in 1989. Search Dalai Lama, Falun
Gong and you also get credible results. Conduct the search in complex Chinese
characters (the kind used in Taiwan and Hong Kong) and on the whole you still
get authentic results.
But conduct the search with the simplified characters used in mainland China,
then you get sanitized pro-Communist results. This is especially true of image
searches. Magic! No Tiananmen Square massacre. The Dalai Lama becomes an
oppressor. Falun Gong believers are villains, not victims. What’s most
offensive is that this is true wherever in the world the search is conducted
– including in my office in New York. If Microsoft felt it had to bow to
Chinese censorship within China’s borders, based on the IP address, that
might be defensible. But when Microsoft skews its worldwide searches to make Hu
Jintao feel better, that’s a disgrace. It becomes simply a unit of the
Central Committee Propaganda Department.
(This is an issue with Google as well, but to a much lesser extent. Google
censors results on its search engine used within China, google.cn, but offers
mostly uncensored results using simplified Chinese characters on its worldwide
browser, google.com. However, some searches on google.com, such as images for
Falun Gong, are also censored.) ...

Kristof's Original Post (Full)
See: Art. Link Ref.
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/boycott-microsoft-bing/

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From skorpio at gmail.com  Sat Nov 21 13:56:30 2009
From: skorpio at gmail.com (Jaco Aizenman)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:56:30 -0600
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <745707.2064.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <3A090CB8CEA4478889FAB7BB23490236@userPC>
	 <745707.2064.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d8bd2dac0911211056t1226db59x33163f221d4f2d2b@mail.gmail.com>

For a person in extreme poverty is more important to have a bank account
where he can receive funds from pulic and not public entities, than to have
access to email or the Web.

So access should be understood not just access to email or web ( you must
know to read and write before..., not just having infrastructure...), but
being present on the internet.

And being present is having a bank account first!, and later other forms o
presence....  (email, web access, etc).

That´s why the Costa Rican COngress is processing a bill (No. 15890) to add
an additional fundamental right: "Having or not, virtual personality".

A bank account is a component of the virtual personality (also email acount,
voicemail, etc, etc).

PD Eric: Like Michael G., I also have sometimes problems trying to
understand your writings..., so I apreciate if you can "write for dumbs" in
the future...., so I can understand more...       ;-)

2009/11/20 Eric Dierker <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>

> Perhaps then in a non boolean way you could answer the simple question;
>
> What concerns of your 5.5 were not addressed?
>
> Seems like your looking for a hypothetical problem. Tell us what was not
> addressed.
>
> (please, as you pointed out this was not about medicine or public safety or
> plumbing -- so give us an example that is germaine to Internet Governance
> not tennis in the Hamptons)
>
> --- On *Fri, 11/20/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
> To: "'Eric Dierker'" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>,
> governance at lists.cpsr.org, "'linda misek-falkoff'" <
> ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
> Cc: "'l.d. misek-falkoff'" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>,
> respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 10:09 AM
>
>
>  Eric and all,
>
> So far as I know, I/we are not dealing here with matters of formal Boolean
> logic but rather concerns with the significance and impact of Internet
> Governance in the real world.
>
> My question was (and remains) whether the matters under discussion were of
> significance to the roughly 5.5 billion without current Internet access in
> the real world and not whether the issues themselves were impacted or not by
> the numbers of those having Internet access, a subject which I personally
> consider to be of no interest whatsoever.
>
> Your arguments and the analysis of your (and my) arguments are to my mind
> complete red herrings.
>
> MBG
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Eric Dierker [mailto:cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:06 PM
> *To:* governance at lists.cpsr.org; linda misek-falkoff; Michael Gurstein
> *Cc:* l.d. misek-falkoff; respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
> *Subject:* Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
>
>   I believe and always have that saying things in a couple of different
> ways or languages or within differing social or cultural logics is most
> helpful. Your questions asks for a fair diagram of my antithesis in a
> straightforward manner. Fair enough.
>
> 1. Does the percentage of actual users in a given set have a significant
> impact on the issues presented? Mr. Gurstein makes that connection.
> 2. My antithesis to the positive belief of Mr. Gurstein is that it does not
> matter how many users there are with regard to issues presented.
> 3. My conclusion is that the percentage of users within any jurisdiction
> did not in any way influence the issues addressed most recently.
>
> It is my observation that although not representative either by vote or
> election or life position, the members here and in general engaged in
> Internet Governance in fact do address the issues of the users and those
> effected and affected by the Internet. This suitable cadre of individuals in
> fact can see the large picture of protecting rights of non users as well as
> users and does in fact address those concerns.
>
> On a more appropriate observation  -- I try very hard to remain as ignorant
> and ill informed as I can so that I can adequately represent others like me.
>
> --- On *Thu, 11/19/09, linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>*wrote:
>
>
> From: linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, "l.d. misek-falkoff" <
> ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>, respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:55 PM
>
>  Hi Michael, I was in my post, above,  also delving for a minimalist
> description of the different approaches to topic here;  so if you can
> clarify or wish to, in response to my post (by choice of course, and no need
> to explicitly use *thesis, antithesis, synthesis* if not seeming apt)  -
> thanks.
>
> (I wouldn't ask Eric's artistic and exciting style and content to change a
> whit, or his wit to subside.  But all of you here can probably parse out the
> points of view for initiates upon this request; would be quite welcome).
>
> Best wishes, Linda.
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any
>> perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct
>> use
>> and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's
>> viability or value to a society."
>>
>> Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???)
>> but
>> rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern
>> society --
>>
>> The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and
>> development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the
>> population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public
>> and
>> private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible
>> for
>> use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication
>> of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service
>> (where
>> the service is available only in electronic form...
>>
>> In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with
>> which
>> I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that the 97.1% (the
>> Cameroun)
>> or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able
>> to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,
>> training, and support resources that are available to those with such
>> access.  Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the
>> population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct
>> contribution
>> to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social
>> development.  South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of
>> those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions
>> necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information
>> Economy.  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to
>> access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,
>> fill these slots and so on and so on.
>>
>> All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how
>> disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at
>> the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about
>> issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing
>> the
>> Net.
>>
>> MBG
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
>> <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
>> service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a
>> society.
>>
>> Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to
>> inoculate
>> thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not
>> relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a
>> telecommunication
>> device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the
>> telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
>> Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?
>>
>> In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and
>> those
>> skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any
>> say
>> in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food
>> from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the
>> homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
>> without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I
>> tolerate
>> all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
>> come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
>> out of a job.
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nyangkweagien at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
>> >
>> Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>,
>> "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein at gmail.com>
>> >
>> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
>> I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
>> along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
>> men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
>> only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
>> And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!
>>
>> Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64
>>
>> Aaon
>>
>> On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country
>> go
>> >> to  the
>>  >>
>> >> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of
>> choice)"
>> >> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>> >>
>> > I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
>> relevance
>> > to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
>> similalry
>> > for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
>> > Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>> >
>> >> MBG
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
>> Journalist-OutCome Mapper
>> Special Assistant The President
>> ASAFE
>> P.O.Box 5213
>> Douala-Cameroon
>>
>> Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
>> Fax. 237 3342 29 70
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance at lists.cpsr.org>
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org<http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org>
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> LDMF.
>> > Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
>> > 914 769 3652
>> > law /  computing / humanities:
>> > Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
>> > Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
>> > U.N.;
>> > World Education Fellowship;
>> > Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
>> > National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
>> > Persons with Pain Intl.;
>> > ICT multiple decades;
>> > Other affiliations on Request.
>> >
>> > n.b.:
>>
>> > -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
>> > Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity"
>> (ask
>> > about leadership interning).
>>
>> > - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
>> CCC/UN.
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>>
>>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>
> For all list information and functions, see:
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>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>
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>


-- 
Jaco Aizenman L.
Presidente
Registro de Activos Financieros - RAF
------------------------
My iname is =jaco (http://xri.net/=jaco)
XDI Board member - www.xdi.org
Tel/Voicemail: 506-83461570
Costa Rica

What is an i-name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-name
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Sat Nov 21 19:07:19 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:07:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
In-Reply-To: <d8bd2dac0911211056t1226db59x33163f221d4f2d2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <183565.58732.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Thank you Jaco,
 
Respectful Interface requires nothing less than what you and Michael ask for and what Linda suggests I practice. Confuscious himself taught us that simplicity shines brighter than complexity.  The late A. Einstein told my late father "Hugh, if you cannot explain it, you have no business doing it"
 
My point is: When we address issues that make the Internet more fair,, When we address issues of procedural Access; When we build good communication tools (like respect for the person or Domain Name Protocals) When we express respect and honor each mans' rights, We are in fact addressing the non-direct-users' needs and concerns.*
 
And when I write in an incomprehensible manner, I am not respecting those who are so kind as to read what I write. My apologies and thank you for helping me to understand.
 
* In fact this is why the IGF must continue the work. Also why the lack of democratic process is acceptable.

--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Jaco Aizenman <skorpio at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jaco Aizenman <skorpio at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: "governance" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>, "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 6:56 PM


For a person in extreme poverty is more important to have a bank account where he can receive funds from pulic and not public entities, than to have access to email or the Web.

So access should be understood not just access to email or web ( you must know to read and write before..., not just having infrastructure...), but being present on the internet.

And being present is having a bank account first!, and later other forms o presence....  (email, web access, etc).

That´s why the Costa Rican COngress is processing a bill (No. 15890) to add an additional fundamental right: "Having or not, virtual personality".

A bank account is a component of the virtual personality (also email acount, voicemail, etc, etc).

PD Eric: Like Michael G., I also have sometimes problems trying to understand your writings..., so I apreciate if you can "write for dumbs" in the future...., so I can understand more...       ;-)


2009/11/20 Eric Dierker <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>






Perhaps then in a non boolean way you could answer the simple question;
 
What concerns of your 5.5 were not addressed?
 
Seems like your looking for a hypothetical problem. Tell us what was not addressed.
 
(please, as you pointed out this was not about medicine or public safety or plumbing -- so give us an example that is germaine to Internet Governance not tennis in the Hamptons)

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: "'Eric Dierker'" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, governance at lists.cpsr.org, "'linda misek-falkoff'" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Cc: "'l.d. misek-falkoff'" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>, respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 10:09 AM






Eric and all,
 
So far as I know, I/we are not dealing here with matters of formal Boolean logic but rather concerns with the significance and impact of Internet Governance in the real world.
 
My question was (and remains) whether the matters under discussion were of significance to the roughly 5.5 billion without current Internet access in the real world and not whether the issues themselves were impacted or not by the numbers of those having Internet access, a subject which I personally consider to be of no interest whatsoever.
 
Your arguments and the analysis of your (and my) arguments are to my mind complete red herrings.
 
MBG


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Dierker [mailto:cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:06 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; linda misek-falkoff; Michael Gurstein
Cc: l.d. misek-falkoff; respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally






I believe and always have that saying things in a couple of different ways or languages or within differing social or cultural logics is most helpful. Your questions asks for a fair diagram of my antithesis in a straightforward manner. Fair enough.
 
1. Does the percentage of actual users in a given set have a significant impact on the issues presented? Mr. Gurstein makes that connection.
2. My antithesis to the positive belief of Mr. Gurstein is that it does not matter how many users there are with regard to issues presented.
3. My conclusion is that the percentage of users within any jurisdiction did not in any way influence the issues addressed most recently.
 
It is my observation that although not representative either by vote or election or life position, the members here and in general engaged in Internet Governance in fact do address the issues of the users and those effected and affected by the Internet. This suitable cadre of individuals in fact can see the large picture of protecting rights of non users as well as users and does in fact address those concerns.
 
On a more appropriate observation  -- I try very hard to remain as ignorant and ill informed as I can so that I can adequately represent others like me.

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com> wrote:


From: linda misek-falkoff <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Cc: "Eric Dierker" <cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net>, "l.d. misek-falkoff" <ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com>, respectful.interfaces at gmail.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:55 PM



Hi Michael, I was in my post, above,  also delving for a minimalist description of the different approaches to topic here;  so if you can clarify or wish to, in response to my post (by choice of course, and no need to explicitly use thesis, antithesis, synthesis if not seeming apt)  - thanks. 
 
(I wouldn't ask Eric's artistic and exciting style and content to change a whit, or his wit to subside.  But all of you here can probably parse out the points of view for initiates upon this request; would be quite welcome).   
 
Best wishes, Linda.


On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

Eric,

I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any
perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct use

and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's
viability or value to a society."

Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???) but
rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern
society --

The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and
development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the
population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public and
private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible for
use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication
of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service (where
the service is available only in electronic form...

In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with which
I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that the 97.1% (the Cameroun)
or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able
to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,
training, and support resources that are available to those with such
access.  Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the
population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct contribution
to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social
development.  South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of
those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions
necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information
Economy.  That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to
access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,
fill these slots and so on and so on.

All of which is to give me an opportunity to say once again BTW, how
disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at
the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about
issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing the
Net.

MBG






 On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker
<cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or
service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.

Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses  syringe(s) to inoculate
thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not
relevant?  Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication
device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the
telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?
Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?

In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those
skilled is the only reason to allow all of us pontithicators to have any say
in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food
from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the
homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions
without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate
all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not
come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be
out of a job.


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <nyangkweagien at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM



Many thanks Michael for the revelation.
I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre
along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that
only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.
And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!

Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64

Aaon

On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go
>> to  the



>>
>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"
>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!
>>
> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of
relevance
> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or
similalry
> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of
> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.
>
>> MBG
>


--
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
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--
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the
CCC/UN.


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-- 
Jaco Aizenman L.
Presidente
Registro de Activos Financieros - RAF
------------------------
My iname is =jaco (http://xri.net/=jaco)
XDI Board member - www.xdi.org
Tel/Voicemail: 506-83461570 
Costa Rica

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From nyangkweagien at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 04:22:18 2009
From: nyangkweagien at gmail.com (Nyangkwe Agien Aaron)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:22:18 +0100
Subject: [governance] New York Time's - Kristof: Boycott Bing
In-Reply-To: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>
Message-ID: <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com>

Kristof wrote

"But when Microsoft skews its worldwide searches to make Hu
Jintao feel better, that’s a disgrace. It becomes simply a unit of the
Central Committee Propaganda Department".

It is all business as usual. Microsoft wants to protect its business
interests in China as some western countries do African dictators and
oppressors. they defended Mobutu who plundered Zaire and many current
undemocratic kleptocrats standing for AFRICAN PRESIDENTS.

And Microsoft's being "committed to comprehensive results" is the same old
song being played by people defending their interests. That is why they
appreciated the dialogue that Kristof has ignited. Point final.

It is business as usual in the Darfur region, why not same with Google
censoring stuffs that displeases that business partner?.

You ain't going to kid around with a market of amost 2 billions people just
for the sake of freedom of expression. Isn't it?

Cheers and let oppression have its way for interests to glow.

Aaron

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Yehuda Katz <yehudakatz at mailinator.com>wrote:

> NYT's Kristof: Boycott Bing
> Todd Bishop on Friday, November 20, 2009
>
> Art.Ref.:
>
> http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2009/11/nyts_kristof_calls_for_bing_boycott.html
>
> Art.Ref.: Link Ref.
> http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/boycott-microsoft-bing/
>
> -
>
> New York Time's Kristof: Boycott Bing ...
>
> [UPDATE, 8 p.m.: In a response to Kristof's post Friday evening, Microsoft
> said
> it's "committed to comprehensive results" and made it clear that it
> believes
> any problems are related to its search technology, not a purposeful attempt
> to
> omit controversial content. Microsoft's Adam Sohn cited "some queries that
> provide very balanced web results," such as a search in Simplified Chinese
> for
> "June 4th Tiananmen."
>
> "In addition, today’s investigations uncovered the fact that our image
> search
> is not functioning properly for queries entered using Simplified Chinese
> characters outside of the PRC. We have identified the bug and are at work
> on
> the fix. We expect to have this done before the Thanksgiving holiday," Sohn
> wrote. "Bing’s intent for these types of queries is to provide relevant and
> comprehensive results for our customers."
>
> He added, "We appreciate the dialog that Mr. Kristof has kicked off.
> Community
> feedback and input is incredibly important to Bing – it helps us do better
> and sometimes alerts us to things we can take immediate action to fix as we
> continue to improve."]
>
> Original post below.
> Microsoft's support for Referendum 71 won its Bing search engine a new fan
> in
> David Schmader of the Stranger, but the company's Internet search practices
> related to China have now lost Bing a user in Nicholas Kristof -- and the
> New
> York Times columnist is calling on his readers to follow suit with a
> boycott.
>
> Kristof's objection, outlined in a blog post this afternoon, centers around
> his
> observation that searches conducted using simplified Chinese characters in
> Bing
> return "sanitized pro-Communist results" not just in China but around the
> world. He questions Microsoft's claim that the results are determined by
> search
> algorithms, not its corporate policy. Here's an excerpt from his post.
>
> If you search a term on Bing that is politically sensitive in China, in
> English
> the results are legitimate. Search “Tiananmen” and you’ll find out about
> the army firing on pro-democracy protesters in 1989. Search Dalai Lama,
> Falun
> Gong and you also get credible results. Conduct the search in complex
> Chinese
> characters (the kind used in Taiwan and Hong Kong) and on the whole you
> still
> get authentic results.
> But conduct the search with the simplified characters used in mainland
> China,
> then you get sanitized pro-Communist results. This is especially true of
> image
> searches. Magic! No Tiananmen Square massacre. The Dalai Lama becomes an
> oppressor. Falun Gong believers are villains, not victims. What’s most
> offensive is that this is true wherever in the world the search is
> conducted
> – including in my office in New York. If Microsoft felt it had to bow to
> Chinese censorship within China’s borders, based on the IP address, that
> might be defensible. But when Microsoft skews its worldwide searches to
> make Hu
> Jintao feel better, that’s a disgrace. It becomes simply a unit of the
> Central Committee Propaganda Department.
> (This is an issue with Google as well, but to a much lesser extent. Google
> censors results on its search engine used within China, google.cn, but
> offers
> mostly uncensored results using simplified Chinese characters on its
> worldwide
> browser, google.com. However, some searches on google.com, such as images
> for
> Falun Gong, are also censored.) ...
>
> Kristof's Original Post (Full)
> See: Art. Link Ref.
> http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/boycott-microsoft-bing/
>
> -30-____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
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>



-- 
Aaron Agien Nyangkwe
Journalist-OutCome Mapper
Special Assistant The President
ASAFE
P.O.Box 5213
Douala-Cameroon

Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22
Fax. 237 3342 29 70
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 09:22:05 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:52:05 -0430
Subject: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak
Message-ID: <4B09490D.30407@gmail.com>

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From wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de  Sun Nov 22 11:40:39 2009
From: wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Kleinw=E4chter=2C_Wolfgang=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:40:39 +0100
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>
 <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID:  <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>

Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither on the IGF website nor is there a website from the new host country.
 
Thanks
 
wolfgang
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From andersj at elon.edu  Sun Nov 22 11:44:50 2009
From: andersj at elon.edu (Janna Anderson)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:44:50 -0500
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
Message-ID: <C72ED4B2.18806%andersj@elon.edu>

The IGF transcript says Sept. 14-17.

Janna

On 11/22/09 11:40 AM, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
<wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:

> Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures
> distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete
> informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither on the IGF
> website nor is there a website from the new host country.
>  
> Thanks
>  
> wolfgang
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

-- 
Janna Quitney Anderson
Director of Imagining the Internet
www.imaginingtheinternet.org

Associate Professor of Communications
Director of Internet Projects
School of Communications
Elon University
andersj at elon.edu
(336) 278-5733 (o)





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From charityg at diplomacy.edu  Sun Nov 22 11:51:07 2009
From: charityg at diplomacy.edu (Charity Gamboa)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:51:07 -0600
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <C72ED4B2.18806%andersj@elon.edu>
References: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
	 <C72ED4B2.18806%andersj@elon.edu>
Message-ID: <ad14556f0911220851y7b8788fcuda186b988e41159a@mail.gmail.com>

True, I have info here that says Sept. 14 - 17. Does anybody know why it
will be in September? Does it have to do with the weather in Lithuania?

Regards,
Charity

2009/11/22 Janna Anderson <andersj at elon.edu>

> The IGF transcript says Sept. 14-17.
>
> Janna
>
> On 11/22/09 11:40 AM, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
> <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:
>
> > Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures
> > distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete
> > informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither on
> the IGF
> > website nor is there a website from the new host country.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > wolfgang
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
> >      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> > To be removed from the list, send any message to:
> >      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> >
> > For all list information and functions, see:
> >      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> --
> Janna Quitney Anderson
> Director of Imagining the Internet
> www.imaginingtheinternet.org
>
> Associate Professor of Communications
> Director of Internet Projects
> School of Communications
> Elon University
> andersj at elon.edu
> (336) 278-5733 (o)
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
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>



-- 
Charity Gamboa-Embley
Student Alternatives Program, Inc - South Plains Academy
4008 Avenue R
Lubbock, Texas 79412
+1 (806) 744 0330
http://www.stdsapi.com/
cembley at esc17.net
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Sun Nov 22 11:51:56 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:51:56 +0000
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>
 <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com>
 <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
Message-ID: <DgTQhxwswWCLFAU9@perry.co.uk>

In message <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1 at server1.medienkomm.un
i-halle.de>, at 17:40:39 on Sun, 22 Nov 2009, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
<wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de> writes
>Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures
>distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete
>informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither
>on the IGF website nor is there a website from the new host country.

        "Next year's IGF meeting will be held in Vilnius, Lithuania,
        from 14 to 17 September.

        "Issued by the UN Department of Public Information

<http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/2009/sharm_el_Sheikh/IGF09-Round-
Up%20Release-final.pdf>
-- 
Roland Perry
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From sebastien.bachollet at free.fr  Sun Nov 22 12:04:20 2009
From: sebastien.bachollet at free.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien_Bachollet?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:04:20 +0100
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <ad14556f0911220851y7b8788fcuda186b988e41159a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>	 <C72ED4B2.18806%andersj@elon.edu> <ad14556f0911220851y7b8788fcuda186b988e41159a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018b01ca6b95$d7842020$868c6060$@bachollet@free.fr>

Maybe because it must be organize before the next ITU plenipot

http://www.itu.int/plenipotentiary/2010/index.html

 

 

Sébastien Bachollet

 <mailto:sebastien.bachollet at free.fr> sebastien.bachollet at free.fr

+33 6 07 66 89 33

 <http://www.egeni.org> www.egeni.org

 <http://www.isoc.fr> www.isoc.fr

De : Charity Gamboa [mailto:charityg at diplomacy.edu] 
Envoyé : dimanche 22 novembre 2009 17:51
À : governance at lists.cpsr.org; Janna Anderson
Cc : Kleinwächter, Wolfgang
Objet : Re: [governance] IGF 2010

 

True, I have info here that says Sept. 14 - 17. Does anybody know why it
will be in September? Does it have to do with the weather in Lithuania? 

Regards,
Charity

2009/11/22 Janna Anderson <andersj at elon.edu>

The IGF transcript says Sept. 14-17.

Janna

On 11/22/09 11:40 AM, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"

<wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:

> Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures
> distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete
> informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither on the
IGF
> website nor is there a website from the new host country.
>
> Thanks
>
> wolfgang
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

--
Janna Quitney Anderson
Director of Imagining the Internet
www.imaginingtheinternet.org

Associate Professor of Communications
Director of Internet Projects
School of Communications
Elon University
andersj at elon.edu
(336) 278-5733 (o)






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-- 
Charity Gamboa-Embley
Student Alternatives Program, Inc - South Plains Academy
4008 Avenue R
Lubbock, Texas 79412
+1 (806) 744 0330
http://www.stdsapi.com/
cembley at esc17.net

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From tracyhackshaw at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 12:08:33 2009
From: tracyhackshaw at gmail.com (Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:08:33 -0400
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>
	 <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
Message-ID: <808a83f60911220908p231216bbseddb2e71c5d067b4@mail.gmail.com>

September 14-17, 2010.

Tweeted at http://twitter.com/intgovforum

2009/11/22 "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" <
wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>

> Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures
> distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete
> informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither on the
> IGF website nor is there a website from the new host country.
>
> Thanks
>
> wolfgang
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Sun Nov 22 13:30:02 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 23:30:02 +0500
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org> <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com> <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> <808a83f60911220908p231216bbseddb2e71c5d067b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <086DC6D4AB6C47AAB45295E9398E1733@shahzad>

It was even earlier but then the organizers had to consider shifting the dates a bit later due to Ramadan. Yes, the Vilnius people said the weather is best around this time. 

best wishes
Shahzad
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google 
  To: governance at lists.cpsr.org ; "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" 
  Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [governance] IGF 2010


  September 14-17, 2010.


  Tweeted at http://twitter.com/intgovforum


  2009/11/22 "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" <wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>

    Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither on the IGF website nor is there a website from the new host country.

    Thanks

    wolfgang
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 17:12:59 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:12:59 +0500
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>
	 <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911221412vd069edaofed5355a5ce5ade2@mail.gmail.com>

Here is the host country IGF 2010 facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/IGF2010

2009/11/22 "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
<wolfgang.kleinwaechter at medienkomm.uni-halle.de>:
> Does somebody know the exact dates for IGF Vilnjus? All the brochures distributed in Sharm by the Vilnjus people did not include concrete informaiton abou the conference site etc. and the dates are neither on the IGF website nor is there a website from the new host country.
>
> Thanks
>
> wolfgang
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From sylvia.caras at gmail.com  Sun Nov 22 19:53:11 2009
From: sylvia.caras at gmail.com (Sylvia Caras)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:53:11 -0800
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <808a83f60911220908p231216bbseddb2e71c5d067b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org> <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com> 
	<2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de> 
	<808a83f60911220908p231216bbseddb2e71c5d067b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b1161f110911221653k26962feas75c153ebab513320@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google
<tracyhackshaw at gmail.com> wrote:
> September 14-17, 2010.

"Yom Kippur in 2010 is on Saturday, the 18th of September.

Note that in the Jewish calander, a holiday begins on the sunset of
the previous day, so observing Jews will celebrate Yom Kippur on the
sunset of Friday, the 17th of September"

Last year, after the announcement, the dates were changed for a holiday.

Who would be the person to notify?

Sylvia
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From lisa at global-partners.co.uk  Mon Nov 23 07:20:06 2009
From: lisa at global-partners.co.uk (Lisa Horner)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:20:06 -0000
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
In-Reply-To: <4B03C0B0.3020409@gmail.com>
References: <4B03C0B0.3020409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A02A7BDF@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>

Hi 

 

Just a quick response to this.  I think that we need to distinguish
between (a) coordinated civil society responses to events by the IGC and
(b) the personal responses of individual members of the broad and
amorphous "civil society" stakeholder group.

 

I think that the IGC behaved entirely appropriately in response to the
events, seeking to clarify what happened and meeting with Markus along
with other concerned stakeholders.

 

I also think that individuals/organisations were well within their
rights to blog and communicate about their opinions and versions of
events.  Not on behalf of "civil society", but in their own personal
capacities.  We shouldn't be trying to stifle that kind of citizen
reporting and expression that the internet has empowered us to engage
in.

 

Multi-stakeholder fora like the IGF do present tensions for civil
society organisations, many of which are mandated to act as watchdogs
over government and business.  We discussed at the IGC meeting in Sharm
the issue of the IGC having lost energy and momentum over the past few
years, and I think that this tension between campaigning and
multi-stakeholder engagement/neogtiation is one reason for that.  We
need to find appropriate ways of navigating around it, but I don't think
trying to manage "web 2.0" responses to events isn't the right way
forward.  

 

Thanks,

 

Lisa

 

 

From: Ginger Paque [mailto:gpaque at gmail.com] 
Sent: 18 November 2009 09:39
To: 'governance at lists.cpsr.org'
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion

 


I am not in Sharm El Sheikh at the IGF, and I did not witness the ONI
"incident". I am not opining on the incident itself, but the way Civil
Society may have handled it, and the way the "big picture" is perceived
from outside. We as Civil Society are maturing, and taking our rightful
place as a stakeholder on the international stage. To be a real "player"
in international meetings, we need to consider the rules and practices
that are in place on the stage we choose. We have asked to sit at the
table, so we have to observe these rules. We may try to change the
rules, but until we change them, we have to respect the existing ones.
This is basic to almost any social activity.

Civil Society is joining the international policy processes as a
newcomer. The situation is similar to that of women in many places: CS
has to work twice as hard and be twice as correct if we want to be taken
seriously. Our response to any incident may be stronger if it is more
discrete, and more correct than anyone else's. We will lose credibility
if we do not investigate ALL of the facts before we react. And not just
the facts, but the possible perception, which as we know, matters in any
"politics", including international "politics". 
 
According to Ronald Deibert, the ONI poster was not put on the floor by
the UN security. Why was it there? Did the videos on the Internet imply
that UN Security had put it there? It looks like media manipulation.
This does not increase our credibility. China alleges that they
protested because the banner was in the public space without permission.
China found a "diplomatic" means to protest, which was a tool at their
disposal. The CS reaction should be through these same procedures,
directed to the IGF Secretariat. If we ask to join a UN forum, then our
reaction and appeal should be to the UN Forum, in this case, to the IGF
Secretariat directly.
 
Even when a serious error is made, our reaction has to be appropriate to
the venue. I think that a proper statement of protest, with a request
for inquiry following UN protocol would have gotten a more serious and
favorable result than a manipulative Web 2.0 reaction. If we want to be
considered international policy stakeholders, we have to be solid,
professional and credible. 

From the outside, it looks like China managed to remove the poster, and
still come out winning points because the Civil Society reaction appears
to be manipulative. ONI also won from this incident, with publicity for
its book. The main loser is Civil Society because it does not look ready
for particpation in serious international policy processes. The incident
may also influence the discussion on the future of the IGF. There are
quite a few important players who see IGF as a deviation/exception to
"normal" diplomacy. With a Web 2.0 reaction, we strengthen arguments to
end this "experiment" in multilateral diplomacy. Again, Civil Society
would be the biggest loser. We lose on all counts. Life is not fair. You
don't get what you deserve, you get what you "negotiate". I do not think
that we negotiated well.

From an "old dog" still trying to learn new tricks.
Best,
Ginger

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From gpaque at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 08:04:04 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:34:04 -0430
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
In-Reply-To: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A02A7BDF@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>
References: <4B03C0B0.3020409@gmail.com> <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A02A7BDF@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>
Message-ID: <4B0A8844.5000706@gmail.com>

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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 23 08:56:33 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:56:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
In-Reply-To: <4B0A8844.5000706@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <426427.45888.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Lisa and Ginger,
 
I like it wide open. I believe that when there is a need for a group stance it will be there. This has been proven.
 
But in the moral, civil and ethical part of our world you cannot have it both ways. Once a woman has taken on the role as a representative of a group in a certain area she is done with the private personal opines.  They must be. Leadership is a brutal lonely and self sacrificing place. The giving of oneself and the leaving behind of certain rights is honorable.
It should not be tarnished by those who want their cake and want to eat it also. Even your post here Ginger is probably a double standard. You cannot speak for the community and speak for yourself.  Many who are nominated decline for this reason.
 
Milton is a good example, of what not to do. Does he speak for Milton? For Syracuse? For the NCUC? For IG?  Who knows what and when?
 
You have got to stand for something or you will fall for anything.

--- On Mon, 11/23/09, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Lisa Horner" <lisa at global-partners.co.uk>
Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 1:04 PM


Hi Lisa and all,

Lisa, you make an important point, and I agree with you entirely. Ian and the IGC acted appropriately and I am sure we will do a proper institutional follow-up. I wasn't even there: I am giving one "remote participation" opinion.

My points were meant as a comment on negotiating technique, strategy and appearances, from the "big picture" as seen from outside; from a long-range view. The "amorphous civil society stakeholder group" is very powerful. I think that we can benefit from analyzing what we do both as the IGC and as individual members of civil society, to maximize our impact on all levels in the future. I agree that we should use the tools available to us, including Web 2.0 tools when appropriate, taking advantage of their strength, but avoiding apparent manipulation for media splash and immediate effect while possibly sacrificing the long-range credibility of civil society in general.

In this particularly venue, I think civil society might have wielded its power better by following diplomatic channels more forcefully and formally, and being strictly objective in the Web 2.0 reaction.

Thanks for your excellent response.
Best,
Ginger





 



Lisa Horner wrote: 






Hi 
 
Just a quick response to this.  I think that we need to distinguish between (a) coordinated civil society responses to events by the IGC and (b) the personal responses of individual members of the broad and amorphous "civil society" stakeholder group.
 
I think that the IGC behaved entirely appropriately in response to the events, seeking to clarify what happened and meeting with Markus along with other concerned stakeholders.
 
I also think that individuals/organisations were well within their rights to blog and communicate about their opinions and versions of events.  Not on behalf of "civil society", but in their own personal capacities.  We shouldn’t be trying to stifle that kind of citizen reporting and expression that the internet has empowered us to engage in.
 
Multi-stakeholder fora like the IGF do present tensions for civil society organisations, many of which are mandated to act as watchdogs over government and business.  We discussed at the IGC meeting in Sharm the issue of the IGC having lost energy and momentum over the past few years, and I think that this tension between campaigning and multi-stakeholder engagement/neogtiation is one reason for that.  We need to find appropriate ways of navigating around it, but I don’t think trying to manage “web 2.0” responses to events isn’t the right way forward.  
 
Thanks,
 
Lisa
 
 


From: Ginger Paque [mailto:gpaque at gmail.com] 
Sent: 18 November 2009 09:39
To: 'governance at lists.cpsr.org'
Subject: [governance] Civil Society participation, my opinion
 

I am not in Sharm El Sheikh at the IGF, and I did not witness the ONI “incident”. I am not opining on the incident itself, but the way Civil Society may have handled it, and the way the "big picture" is perceived from outside. We as Civil Society are maturing, and taking our rightful place as a stakeholder on the international stage. To be a real “player” in international meetings, we need to consider the rules and practices that are in place on the stage we choose. We have asked to sit at the table, so we have to observe these rules. We may try to change the rules, but until we change them, we have to respect the existing ones. This is basic to almost any social activity.

Civil Society is joining the international policy processes as a newcomer. The situation is similar to that of women in many places: CS has to work twice as hard and be twice as correct if we want to be taken seriously. Our response to any incident may be stronger if it is more discrete, and more correct than anyone else’s. We will lose credibility if we do not investigate ALL of the facts before we react. And not just the facts, but the possible perception, which as we know, matters in any "politics", including international "politics". 
 
According to Ronald Deibert, the ONI poster was not put on the floor by the UN security. Why was it there? Did the videos on the Internet imply that UN Security had put it there? It looks like media manipulation.   This does not increase our credibility. China alleges that they protested because the banner was in the public space without permission. China found a “diplomatic” means to protest, which was a tool at their disposal. The CS reaction should be through these same procedures, directed to the IGF Secretariat. If we ask to join a UN forum, then our reaction and appeal should be to the UN Forum, in this case, to the IGF Secretariat directly.
 
Even when a serious error is made, our reaction has to be appropriate to the venue. I think that a proper statement of protest, with a request for inquiry following UN protocol would have gotten a more serious and favorable result than a manipulative Web 2.0 reaction. If we want to be considered international policy stakeholders, we have to be solid, professional and credible. 

>From the outside, it looks like China managed to remove the poster, and still come out winning points because the Civil Society reaction appears to be manipulative. ONI also won from this incident, with publicity for its book. The main loser is Civil Society because it does not look ready for particpation in serious international policy processes. The incident may also influence the discussion on the future of the IGF. There are quite a few important players who see IGF as a deviation/exception to “normal” diplomacy. With a Web 2.0 reaction, we strengthen arguments to end this “experiment” in multilateral diplomacy. Again, Civil Society would be the biggest loser. We lose on all counts. Life is not fair. You don’t get what you deserve, you get what you “negotiate”. I do not think that we negotiated well.

From an "old dog" still trying to learn new tricks.
Best,
Ginger
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From rafik.dammak at gmail.com  Mon Nov 23 10:16:04 2009
From: rafik.dammak at gmail.com (Rafik Dammak)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:16:04 +0900
Subject: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak
In-Reply-To: <4B09490D.30407@gmail.com>
References: <4B09490D.30407@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bbd2a2cd0911230716p5d6b43f4vcfc85e8d31247127@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Ginger that is my bio and will be glad to reply to any questions.

I am a Research Student at the Interdisciplinary Information Studies, at the
University of Tokyo, with focus on Ubiquitous computing, wireless sensor
network and embedded systems. I hold a degree in Computer Engineering. I
worked before as Software engineer at STMicroelectronics. I am also a
DiploFoundation alumni after completion of the Internet Governance Capacity
Building program. I took also the Online course on E-voting. I participated
in the online WIPO course on Intellectual Property because my interests for
IPR issues and A2K.

I have joined Creative Commons Tunisian license project as Public co-leader
(http://creativecommons.org/international/). I am involved in the youth
participation at Internet Governance and in the organization of youth
workshops (
http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/index.php/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSProposals2009View&wspid=230)
and attended as a youth representative. I am member of the remote
participation on IGF working group. I have been involved in ICANN community
as NCUC individual user member and also appointed recently as GNSO councilor
for the Non-commercial Stakeholders Group. I am also an ISOC global member.

I attended IGF Rio de Janeiro, Hyderabad and Sharm Sheikh. I participated at
the first Summer School on Internet Governance held in Meissen Germany.

You can follow me on twitter http://twitter.com/rafik

Finally, I joined IGC since I started be involved on IG issues.
Rafik


2009/11/22 Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com>

>  We now have a third candidate for our upcoming co-coordinator elections:
> Rafik Dammak. Rafik, would you please post a short bio here on the list?
>
> Thanks!, Ginger
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Mon Nov 23 16:38:51 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:38:51 +0000
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <b1161f110911221653k26962feas75c153ebab513320@mail.gmail.com>
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org>
 <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com>
 <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>
 <808a83f60911220908p231216bbseddb2e71c5d067b4@mail.gmail.com>
 <b1161f110911221653k26962feas75c153ebab513320@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SwCU15qrDwCLFAX+@perry.co.uk>

In message 
<b1161f110911221653k26962feas75c153ebab513320 at mail.gmail.com>, at 
16:53:11 on Sun, 22 Nov 2009, Sylvia Caras <sylvia.caras at gmail.com> 
writes
>> September 14-17, 2010.
>
>"Yom Kippur in 2010 is on Saturday, the 18th of September.
>
>Note that in the Jewish calander, a holiday begins on the sunset of
>the previous day, so observing Jews will celebrate Yom Kippur on the
>sunset of Friday, the 17th of September"
>
>Last year, after the announcement, the dates were changed for a holiday.

For Hyderabad?

The other date worth mentioning is 10th September which is the end of 
Ramadan.
-- 
Roland Perry
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Mon Nov 23 20:25:58 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:25:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak
In-Reply-To: bbd2a2cd0911230716p5d6b43f4vcfc85e8d31247127@mail.gmail.com
Message-ID: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org>

Rafik,

I'm almost sold on your candidacy, however a few questions:

Do you speak and write Japanese?

What other linguistic abilities (speak & /or write) do you have?

How long have you been following 'Internet Root/Icann Politics' (e.g.: since ?
x-year)?

What understanding of  Technical Boards (Iana, Icann, RIR's etc. etc...) do you
have?

What understanding of Polysciences do you possess (Political Systems i.e.:
Chinese Govenmental, US Govermental, Japanese, Euro, etc...)?

Thnx.
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From avri at acm.org  Tue Nov 24 05:46:42 2009
From: avri at acm.org (Avri Doria)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:46:42 -0500
Subject: [governance] IGF 2010
In-Reply-To: <b1161f110911221653k26962feas75c153ebab513320@mail.gmail.com>
References: <sympa.1258816546.37194.513@lists.cpsr.org> <a6bc8cb30911220122j5f3692bcs32de643d5271416f@mail.gmail.com>  <2DA93620FC07494C926D60C8E3C2F1A87197F1@server1.medienkomm.uni-halle.de>  <808a83f60911220908p231216bbseddb2e71c5d067b4@mail.gmail.com> <b1161f110911221653k26962feas75c153ebab513320@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <92B49D4C-0EAF-4440-95BF-1E48F6DD24FA@acm.org>

I have passed the message on.

a.

On 22 Nov 2009, at 19:53, Sylvia Caras wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google
> <tracyhackshaw at gmail.com> wrote:
>> September 14-17, 2010.
> 
> "Yom Kippur in 2010 is on Saturday, the 18th of September.
> 
> Note that in the Jewish calander, a holiday begins on the sunset of
> the previous day, so observing Jews will celebrate Yom Kippur on the
> sunset of Friday, the 17th of September"
> 
> Last year, after the announcement, the dates were changed for a holiday.
> 
> Who would be the person to notify?
> 
> Sylvia
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Tue Nov 24 15:18:17 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:18:17 +0000
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
Message-ID: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>

Just interested to know how well the remote participation worked. As a 
conscientious on-site attendee all week, I only heard one 
intervention/question arrive via the remote participation.

Was that because they had little to say, or was there some other issue?
-- 
Roland Perry
____________________________________________________________
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From amedinagomez at gmail.com  Tue Nov 24 15:30:35 2009
From: amedinagomez at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Antonio_Medina_G=F3mez?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:30:35 -0500
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>

We coordinate the IGF Colombia and gives us the opportunity to participate
virtually the IGF in Egypt. The work is of great importance.
I think that we really a great experience from the Remote Hub and this is
profit and not lost.
Antonio Medina Gomez
IGF Colombia
Hub Remote

2009/11/24 Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>

> Just interested to know how well the remote participation worked. As a
> conscientious on-site attendee all week, I only heard one
> intervention/question arrive via the remote participation.
>
> Was that because they had little to say, or was there some other issue?
> --
> Roland Perry
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Tue Nov 24 23:27:16 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:27:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Kieren McCarthy gets Married
In-Reply-To: 05B243F724B2284986522B6ACD0504D788D640A826@EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org
Message-ID: <sympa.1259123160.71436.942@lists.cpsr.org>

Another One Bites the Dust - Kieren McCarthy gets Married

Ref.:
http://kierenmccarthy.co.uk/2009/11/24/married-to-sapna/

Kieren & Sapna,

Congratulations and all the best in your future!
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Wed Nov 25 02:23:23 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:23:23 +0000
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>

In message <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a at mail.gmail.com>, 
at 15:30:35 on Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Antonio Medina Gómez 
<amedinagomez at gmail.com> writes
>We coordinate the IGF Colombia and gives us the opportunity to
>participate virtually the IGF in Egypt. The work is of great
>importance.
>I think that we really a great experience from the Remote Hub and this
>is profit and not lost.

This year the streamed output from the IGF was very good, and there's an 
excellent archive of video material on the IGF website; both of which 
are a great benefit. My question, however, was about the flow of 
information in the other direction.

>2009/11/24 Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
>  Just interested to know how well the remote participation worked. As
>  a conscientious on-site attendee all week, I only heard one
>  intervention/question arrive via the remote participation.
>
>  Was that because they had little to say, or was there some other
>  issue?

-- 
Roland Perry
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From anriette at apc.org  Wed Nov 25 02:49:55 2009
From: anriette at apc.org (Anriette Esterhuysen)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:49:55 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>

At one of the workshops I participated in, the 'Development Agenda'
workshop on the 17th organised by Bill Drake, remote participation
worked extremely well.

This must in large part have to do with Derrick Cogburn's excellent
handling of the process, as well as Bill's sensitivity to the remote
participants, and the fact that it was a three hour workshop which meant
there was sufficient time to include the remote participants.

I also found it helpful as a panellist to have the remote participation
(Eluminate) interface open on my laptop which enabled me to interact
with the remote participants directly.

Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
IGFs.

Anriette

On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 07:23 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a at mail.gmail.com>, 
> at 15:30:35 on Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Antonio Medina Gómez 
> <amedinagomez at gmail.com> writes
> >We coordinate the IGF Colombia and gives us the opportunity to
> >participate virtually the IGF in Egypt. The work is of great
> >importance.
> >I think that we really a great experience from the Remote Hub and this
> >is profit and not lost.
> 
> This year the streamed output from the IGF was very good, and there's an 
> excellent archive of video material on the IGF website; both of which 
> are a great benefit. My question, however, was about the flow of 
> information in the other direction.
> 
> >2009/11/24 Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
> >  Just interested to know how well the remote participation worked. As
> >  a conscientious on-site attendee all week, I only heard one
> >  intervention/question arrive via the remote participation.
> >
> >  Was that because they had little to say, or was there some other
> >  issue?
> 


-- 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
anriette esterhuysen - executive director
association for progressive communications
p o box 29755 melville - south africa 2109
anriette at apc.org - tel/fax + 27 11 726 1692
http://www.apc.org

____________________________________________________________
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From ocl at gih.com  Wed Nov 25 03:13:23 2009
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:13:23 +0100
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk> <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com> <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>

> Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
> participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
> IGFs.

The thing was that video and audio streaming was implemented as standard in 
all sessions, and it worked really well. However, no standard feedback 
channel was implemented and it was up to each workshop organiser to think of 
a system, be it Elluminate, Adobe, Marratech, Webex or other. It caught some 
session organisers off-guard.
So that leaves room for improvement next year.
Warm regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html 

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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Wed Nov 25 03:49:05 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:49:05 +0500
Subject: [governance] TAKE BACK THE TECH! 16 Days of Activism against
 Violence against Women
Message-ID: <EFAC50BB81A245BE88C303A1F768806E@shahzad>

Dear Colleagues,

It may sound a bit off-topic to some of you but we think VAW to be an 
extremely important issue for consideration for the IG debate. We invite all 
CS entities and other stakeholders to be part of this 16-day campaign and 
help it by  spread word through email, twitter, facebook or as you may like.

Thanks and best wishes
Shahzad

******************************************
TAKE BACK THE TECH!
16 DAYS OF ACTIVISM: TAKE CONTROL OF TECHNOLOGY TO END VIOLENCE AGAINST
WOMEN
www.TakeBackTheTech.net
25 Nov - 10 Dec
******************************************

>From 25 November to 10 December, get ready to click your mouse, flex your
SMS fingers and engage full energy to take control of technology to end
violence against women.

APC's Women's Programme calls on users of the radio, television, internet,
emails and mobile phones to Take Back the Tech!

//In Malaysia, women in the community are learning how to blog, and
posting their perceptions on violence against women in their own
language//
//In Mexico, women's communication rights activists and journalists plan
for 16 days of feminist tweeting on technology how-tos and against
violence against women//
//In the Republic of Congo, students will write and perform a play on
violence against women and technology//

============================
What is the campaign about?
============================
Take Back the Tech!  is a collaborative campaign for anyone using the
internet and technology to protest violence against women (VAW). Initiated
by APC's women's programme (APC WNSP) in 2006, and built by a diverse
movement of individuals, organisations, collectives and communities, the
campaign is part of the UN-sanctioned 16 Days of Activism Against
Gender-based Violence which begins on November 25 each year.

It is our right to shape, define, participate, use and share knowledge,
information and technology, and to create digital spaces that are safe and
equal. Take Back the Tech! calls all users of information and
communications technologies (ICTs) -especially girls and  women but also
men and boys- to take control of technology and consciously use it to
change unequal power relations.

Take Back the Tech! will be happening all over the world, including in
Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Cambodia, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC),
Republic of  Congo, Malaysia, Mexico, Pakistan, Philippines, South Africa,
Uganda as part of APC WNSP's efforts to achieve Millenium development Goal
3 to promote gender equality and empower women
http://www.apcwomen.org/node/695.

www.TakeBackTheTech.net

===============================
How can you Take Back the Tech?
===============================

**Spread the word**
-------------------
State your stand and help us spread the word about the campaign. Send this
message on, change your email signature or status messages to point to the
campaign website, send a digital postcard, put the campaign banner on your
site, chalk it on a sidewalk, any creative ways you can think of to spread
the word! If you are on Twitter, tweet with us by using the hashtag:
#takebackthetech. If you are a blogger, ka-BLOG with us :) Spread the word
by translating actions and slogans in your local languages, and
disseminating the campaign and its daily actions through any of your
online channels.

**16 daily actions**
--------------------
Simple daily actions throughout the 16 days show how to use technology
strategically to counter VAW. From sending SMS, to making digital
postcards, learning a new software, playing with radio or remembering
forgotten names in the history of  IT development, you can take action
with the tools and platforms you have at hand. Check the campaign website
during the 16 days to take part in daily actions.

**Ka-BLOG with us**
----------------
Explore and broaden the knowledge around technology and internet and
violence against women by joining the Take Back the Tech! 16-day
blogathon.

New to blogging? This is the perfect reason to start your own, or at
least, click that "comment" button to have your say. In Filipino slang,
"ka-BLOG" means someone you blog with, we can all blog together to raise
awareness and help end VAW. Tag your blog posts using Technorati tag:
"takebackthetech", or register your blog on the campaign website, or email
us: ideas at takebackthetech.net. Join our movement to transform the
blogosphere!

**Start a campaign**
---------------------
Start your own Take Back the Tech! campaign. Independent and creative
initiatives to Take Back the Tech! are taking off in different parts of
the world, translating content and action to address local needs and
priorities.

Use the campaign website to highlight your action, or find information and
resources. There are campaign kits,  images and graphics, tips on how to
be safe online, articles and links, available in English, Spanish and
French.  If you don't have an online publishing space, you can have your
own page on the site. Email us to let us know how we can support your
action: ideas at takebackthetech.net.

**Digital stories, audiocasts & more**
--------------------------------------
Learn by listening to the experience and stories of women and men affected
by VAW. The campaign website will feature digital stories, audiocasts,
video clips and postcards. If you have something you would like to share,
just log on to the campaign site and submit your story.

**Suggest an action**
---------------------
Help shape the campaign by sharing your experience and ideas. If you have
thoughts, email us or log on to the site, and make it part of the
campaign.

Check www.TakeBackTheTech.net daily from 25 November to 10 December, and
take control of technology to end violence against women.

For more information: send an email to ideas at takebackthetech.net

Join us on Facebook: http://apps.facebook.com/causes/40159
Connect with other campaigners:
http://lists.apcwomen.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/takebackthetech

*********************************************************
Take Back the Tech! is an initiative of the APC Women's Networking Support
Programme (APC WNSP), a global network of women who support women's
networking for social change and women's empowerment through the use of
information and communication technologies (ICTs) especially internet,
founded in 1993. The APC WNSP is part of the Association for Progressive
Communications (APC).
http://www.apcwomen.org/about/
http://www.apc.org
MDG3: Strengthening women's strategic use of technology to combat violence
against women and girls  http://www.apcwomen.org/node/695 and
http://www.apc.org/en/node/7892/
*********************************************************
END




____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 04:40:35 2009
From: ldmisekfalkoff at gmail.com (linda misek-falkoff)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 04:40:35 -0500
Subject: [governance] *link*: Resonating with Sue, TAKE BACK THE TECH! 16
 Days of Activism against Violence against Women
Message-ID: <45ed74050911250140m2f67d58fg14930a22ed599d00@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends and Colleagues:

Please note this link provided in appreciation of Advisor Sue Zipp's earlier
post; not a CCC/UN event or officially noted, but as a timely reference in
key with our awareness that...

Whether as to age or gender or disability or otherwise, in our own time *
media* has expanded with civil society voices now heard and hearable on
major issues; this in sync with CCC/UN's core values of communication,
coordination, cooperation.

Teachable moments?  If we wish to learn.

With warm regards, holiday and continuing best wishes, Linda M F.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shahzad Ahmad <shahzad at bytesforall.net>
Date: Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 3:49 AM
Subject: [governance] TAKE BACK THE TECH! 16 Days of Activism against
Violence against Women
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org


Dear Colleagues,

It may sound a bit off-topic to some of you but we think VAW to be an
extremely important issue for consideration for the IG debate. We invite all
CS entities and other stakeholders to be part of this 16-day campaign and
help it by  spread word through email, twitter, facebook or as you may like.

Thanks and best wishes
Shahzad

******************************************
TAKE BACK THE TECH!
16 DAYS OF ACTIVISM: TAKE CONTROL OF TECHNOLOGY TO END VIOLENCE AGAINST
WOMEN
www.TakeBackTheTech.net <http://www.takebackthetech.net/>
25 Nov - 10 Dec
******************************************

>From 25 November to 10 December, get ready to click your mouse, flex your
SMS fingers and engage full energy to take control of technology to end
violence against women.

APC's Women's Programme calls on users of the radio, television, internet,
emails and mobile phones to Take Back the Tech!

//In Malaysia, women in the community are learning how to blog, and
posting their perceptions on violence against women in their own
language//
//In Mexico, women's communication rights activists and journalists plan
for 16 days of feminist tweeting on technology how-tos and against
violence against women//
//In the Republic of Congo, students will write and perform a play on
violence against women and technology//

============================
What is the campaign about?
============================
Take Back the Tech!  is a collaborative campaign for anyone using the
internet and technology to protest violence against women (VAW). Initiated
by APC's women's programme (APC WNSP) in 2006, and built by a diverse
movement of individuals, organisations, collectives and communities, the
campaign is part of the UN-sanctioned 16 Days of Activism Against
Gender-based Violence which begins on November 25 each year.

It is our right to shape, define, participate, use and share knowledge,
information and technology, and to create digital spaces that are safe and
equal. Take Back the Tech! calls all users of information and
communications technologies (ICTs) -especially girls and  women but also
men and boys- to take control of technology and consciously use it to
change unequal power relations.

Take Back the Tech! will be happening all over the world, including in
Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Cambodia, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC),
Republic of  Congo, Malaysia, Mexico, Pakistan, Philippines, South Africa,
Uganda as part of APC WNSP's efforts to achieve Millenium development Goal
3 to promote gender equality and empower women
http://www.apcwomen.org/node/695.

www.TakeBackTheTech.net <http://www.takebackthetech.net/>

===============================
How can you Take Back the Tech?
===============================

**Spread the word**
-------------------
State your stand and help us spread the word about the campaign. Send this
message on, change your email signature or status messages to point to the
campaign website, send a digital postcard, put the campaign banner on your
site, chalk it on a sidewalk, any creative ways you can think of to spread
the word! If you are on Twitter, tweet with us by using the hashtag:
#takebackthetech. If you are a blogger, ka-BLOG with us :) Spread the word
by translating actions and slogans in your local languages, and
disseminating the campaign and its daily actions through any of your
online channels.

**16 daily actions**
--------------------
Simple daily actions throughout the 16 days show how to use technology
strategically to counter VAW. From sending SMS, to making digital
postcards, learning a new software, playing with radio or remembering
forgotten names in the history of  IT development, you can take action
with the tools and platforms you have at hand. Check the campaign website
during the 16 days to take part in daily actions.

**Ka-BLOG with us**
----------------
Explore and broaden the knowledge around technology and internet and
violence against women by joining the Take Back the Tech! 16-day
blogathon.

New to blogging? This is the perfect reason to start your own, or at
least, click that "comment" button to have your say. In Filipino slang,
"ka-BLOG" means someone you blog with, we can all blog together to raise
awareness and help end VAW. Tag your blog posts using Technorati tag:
"takebackthetech", or register your blog on the campaign website, or email
us: ideas at takebackthetech.net. Join our movement to transform the
blogosphere!

**Start a campaign**
---------------------
Start your own Take Back the Tech! campaign. Independent and creative
initiatives to Take Back the Tech! are taking off in different parts of
the world, translating content and action to address local needs and
priorities.

Use the campaign website to highlight your action, or find information and
resources. There are campaign kits,  images and graphics, tips on how to
be safe online, articles and links, available in English, Spanish and
French.  If you don't have an online publishing space, you can have your
own page on the site. Email us to let us know how we can support your
action: ideas at takebackthetech.net.

**Digital stories, audiocasts & more**
--------------------------------------
Learn by listening to the experience and stories of women and men affected
by VAW. The campaign website will feature digital stories, audiocasts,
video clips and postcards. If you have something you would like to share,
just log on to the campaign site and submit your story.

**Suggest an action**
---------------------
Help shape the campaign by sharing your experience and ideas. If you have
thoughts, email us or log on to the site, and make it part of the
campaign.

Check www.TakeBackTheTech.net <http://www.takebackthetech.net/> daily from
25 November to 10 December, and
take control of technology to end violence against women.

For more information: send an email to ideas at takebackthetech.net

Join us on Facebook: http://apps.facebook.com/causes/40159
Connect with other campaigners:
http://lists.apcwomen.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/takebackthetech

*********************************************************
Take Back the Tech! is an initiative of the APC Women's Networking Support
Programme (APC WNSP), a global network of women who support women's
networking for social change and women's empowerment through the use of
information and communication technologies (ICTs) especially internet,
founded in 1993. The APC WNSP is part of the Association for Progressive
Communications (APC).
http://www.apcwomen.org/about/
http://www.apc.org
MDG3: Strengthening women's strategic use of technology to combat violence
against women and girls  http://www.apcwomen.org/node/695 and
http://www.apc.org/en/node/7892/
*********************************************************
END




____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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-- 
LDMF.
> Dr. Linda D. Misek-Falkoff
> 914 769 3652
> law /  computing / humanities:
> Founder/Director *Respectful Interfaces*;
> Member, Board, Officer - Communications Coordination Committee for the
> U.N.;
> World Education Fellowship;
> Member Committees on disability, aging, health, values, development;
> National Disability Party (NDP); International Disability Caucus;
> Persons with Pain Intl.;
> ICT multiple decades;
> Other affiliations on Request.
>
> n.b.:

> -  You are welcome to join *Respectful Interfaces.* The *Respectful
> Interfaces* Coda is: "Achieving Dialogue While Cherishing Diversity" (ask
> about leadership interning).

> - Communication, Cooperation and Collaboration are core values of the

> CCC/UN.
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Wed Nov 25 04:53:26 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:53:26 +0000
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>

In message <1259135395.3296.379.camel at anriette-laptop>, at 09:49:55 on 
Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> writes
>At one of the workshops I participated in, the 'Development Agenda'
>workshop on the 17th organised by Bill Drake, remote participation
>worked extremely well.
>
>This must in large part have to do with Derrick Cogburn's excellent
>handling of the process, as well as Bill's sensitivity to the remote
>participants, and the fact that it was a three hour workshop which meant
>there was sufficient time to include the remote participants.

Maybe that's the answer - bringing the audience more positively into the 
picture. When I was on a panel, there was someone monitoring the remote 
participation, and periodically asking if anyone had any comments, but 
none were forthcoming. But that was a room without video - and it was 
never fully clear to me how many of the non-video rooms had an 
audio-cast.

>I also found it helpful as a panellist to have the remote participation
>(Eluminate) interface open on my laptop which enabled me to interact
>with the remote participants directly.

Is that the same application that was running the webcast? (Which had a 
note on it asking on-site people not to use it because of bandwidth 
issues)? Maybe part of the panel preparations should be giving at least 
the chair/moderator a laptop which is pre-registered with the relevant 
room.

>Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
>participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
>IGFs.

It was potentially more effective than emailing the secretariat with 
questions, I agree. Meanwhile I was quite busy on Skype and Twitter, 
alongside email and a private Jabber room; sometimes there's a limit to 
the number of channels one person can have open (yes, including 
listening to the people in the room).

Roland.

>Anriette
>
>On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 07:23 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a at mail.gmail.com>,
>> at 15:30:35 on Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Antonio Medina Gómez
>> <amedinagomez at gmail.com> writes
>> >We coordinate the IGF Colombia and gives us the opportunity to
>> >participate virtually the IGF in Egypt. The work is of great
>> >importance.
>> >I think that we really a great experience from the Remote Hub and this
>> >is profit and not lost.
>>
>> This year the streamed output from the IGF was very good, and there's an
>> excellent archive of video material on the IGF website; both of which
>> are a great benefit. My question, however, was about the flow of
>> information in the other direction.
>>
>> >2009/11/24 Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
>> >  Just interested to know how well the remote participation worked. As
>> >  a conscientious on-site attendee all week, I only heard one
>> >  intervention/question arrive via the remote participation.
>> >
>> >  Was that because they had little to say, or was there some other
>> >  issue?
>>
>
>

-- 
Roland Perry
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 05:50:41 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:20:41 -0430
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk> <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com> <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop> <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
Message-ID: <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com>

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From rafik.dammak at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 06:24:51 2009
From: rafik.dammak at gmail.com (Rafik Dammak)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:24:51 +0900
Subject: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak
In-Reply-To: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org>
References: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org>
Message-ID: <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Yehuda,

interesting questions :)

1/ I only speak "survival kit" Japanese for daily life :)
2/ I speak and write on Arabic, French and English
3/ more than two years now.
4/  complicated question to answer, but basically  I am more focusing on
ICANN  process and not especially on Internet Addressing issues.
5/ I cannot state that I understand well the Japanese system but I start to
be more sensitive to some of its particularities, I am aware about EU system
because the special relationship between Tunisia and EU.

I hope that reply at least to some of your questions.

Thanks!

rafik

2009/11/24 Yehuda Katz <yehudakatz at mailinator.com>

> Rafik,
>
> I'm almost sold on your candidacy, however a few questions:
>
> Do you speak and write Japanese?
>
> What other linguistic abilities (speak & /or write) do you have?
>
> How long have you been following 'Internet Root/Icann Politics' (e.g.:
> since ?
> x-year)?
>
> What understanding of  Technical Boards (Iana, Icann, RIR's etc. etc...) do
> you
> have?
>
> What understanding of Polysciences do you possess (Political Systems i.e.:
> Chinese Govenmental, US Govermental, Japanese, Euro, etc...)?
>
> Thnx.
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
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From david.souter at runbox.com  Wed Nov 25 06:34:43 2009
From: david.souter at runbox.com (David Souter)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:34:43 -0000
Subject: [governance] Election process - message to list coordinators
In-Reply-To: <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org> <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01ca6dc3$48e2bdb0$daa83910$@souter@runbox.com>

To the list coordinators:

 

I’ve not checked the election rules here, but surely we should not be having the kind of interchange below on-list.  All candidates ought to be treated equally, with the same opportunity to provide material to those who are entitled to vote.  If we are going to conduct an interview process, which is what the exchange below amounts to, it should apply to all.

 

Message sent by:

 

David Souter

Managing Director, ict Development Associates ltd

Visiting Professor in Communications Management, Business School, University of Strathclyde

Visiting Senior Fellow, Department of Media and Communications, London School of Economics

Associate of the International Institute for Sustainable Development

 

145 Lower Camden, Chislehurst, Kent, BR7 5JD

(+44) (0)20 8467 1148 (fixed line)

(+44) (0)7764 819974 (cellular line)

 

From: Rafik Dammak [mailto:rafik.dammak at gmail.com] 
Sent: 25 November 2009 11:25
To: Yehuda Katz; governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Re: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak

 

Hi Yehuda,

 

interesting questions :)

 

1/ I only speak "survival kit" Japanese for daily life :)

2/ I speak and write on Arabic, French and English

3/ more than two years now.

4/  complicated question to answer, but basically  I am more focusing on ICANN  process and not especially on Internet Addressing issues. 

5/ I cannot state that I understand well the Japanese system but I start to be more sensitive to some of its particularities, I am aware about EU system because the special relationship between Tunisia and EU.

I hope that reply at least to some of your questions.

 

Thanks!

 

rafik

 

2009/11/24 Yehuda Katz <yehudakatz at mailinator.com>

Rafik,

I'm almost sold on your candidacy, however a few questions:

Do you speak and write Japanese?

What other linguistic abilities (speak & /or write) do you have?

How long have you been following 'Internet Root/Icann Politics' (e.g.: since ?
x-year)?

What understanding of  Technical Boards (Iana, Icann, RIR's etc. etc...) do you
have?

What understanding of Polysciences do you possess (Political Systems i.e.:
Chinese Govenmental, US Govermental, Japanese, Euro, etc...)?

Thnx.

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    governance at lists.cpsr.org
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    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

 

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From javier at funredes.org  Wed Nov 25 06:38:46 2009
From: javier at funredes.org (Javier =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pinz=F3n?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:38:46 -0400 (AST)
Subject: What happened with the hubs? - [governance] 
In-Reply-To: <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
    <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
    <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
    <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
    <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2750.200.118.10.0.1259149126.squirrel@funredes.org>

>>Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
>>participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
>>IGFs.
>
> It was potentially more effective than emailing the secretariat with
> questions, I agree. Meanwhile I was quite busy on Skype and Twitter,
> alongside email and a private Jabber room; sometimes there's a limit to
> the number of channels one person can have open (yes, including
> listening to the people in the room).

That´s right Roland.

We must be aware of information overload and focus our infotention
carefully. I should say not "sometimes" but that there is a limit to how
many channels even the must experienced multitasker is able to handle
well.

Anyway it was much better the remote participation this year than before.

Best,

Javier

--
http://funredes.org/javier



____________________________________________________________
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From williams.deirdre at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 06:43:41 2009
From: williams.deirdre at gmail.com (Deirdre Williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:43:41 -0400
Subject: [governance] Election process - message to list coordinators
In-Reply-To: <804840243145549499@unknownmsgid>
References: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org>
	 <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>
	 <804840243145549499@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <fa468ac00911250343x151da188x9adb91196b897609@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with this comment.
Does a list of criteria exist for the person filling the post of
co-ordinator?
Can that become a list of questions which could be answered by all
candidates?
Deirdre

2009/11/25 David Souter <david.souter at runbox.com>

>  To the list coordinators:
>
>
>
> I’ve not checked the election rules here, but surely we should not be
> having the kind of interchange below on-list.  All candidates ought to be
> treated equally, with the same opportunity to provide material to those who
> are entitled to vote.  If we are going to conduct an interview process,
> which is what the exchange below amounts to, it should apply to all.
>
>
>
> Message sent by:
>
>
>
> David Souter
>
> Managing Director, ict Development Associates ltd
>
> Visiting Professor in Communications Management, Business School,
> University of Strathclyde
>
> Visiting Senior Fellow, Department of Media and Communications, London
> School of Economics
>
> Associate of the International Institute for Sustainable Development
>
>
>
> 145 Lower Camden, Chislehurst, Kent, BR7 5JD
>
> (+44) (0)20 8467 1148 (fixed line)
>
> (+44) (0)7764 819974 (cellular line)
>
>
>
> *From:* Rafik Dammak [mailto:rafik.dammak at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 25 November 2009 11:25
> *To:* Yehuda Katz; governance at lists.cpsr.org
> *Subject:* Re: Re: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik
> Dammak
>
>
>
> Hi Yehuda,
>
>
>
> interesting questions :)
>
>
>
> 1/ I only speak "survival kit" Japanese for daily life :)
>
> 2/ I speak and write on Arabic, French and English
>
> 3/ more than two years now.
>
> 4/  complicated question to answer, but basically  I am more focusing on
> ICANN  process and not especially on Internet Addressing issues.
>
> 5/ I cannot state that I understand well the Japanese system but I start to
> be more sensitive to some of its particularities, I am aware about EU system
> because the special relationship between Tunisia and EU.
>
> I hope that reply at least to some of your questions.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> rafik
>
>
>
> 2009/11/24 Yehuda Katz <yehudakatz at mailinator.com>
>
> Rafik,
>
> I'm almost sold on your candidacy, however a few questions:
>
> Do you speak and write Japanese?
>
> What other linguistic abilities (speak & /or write) do you have?
>
> How long have you been following 'Internet Root/Icann Politics' (e.g.:
> since ?
> x-year)?
>
> What understanding of  Technical Boards (Iana, Icann, RIR's etc. etc...) do
> you
> have?
>
> What understanding of Polysciences do you possess (Political Systems i.e.:
> Chinese Govenmental, US Govermental, Japanese, Euro, etc...)?
>
> Thnx.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>


-- 
“The fundamental cure for poverty is not money but knowledge" Sir William
Arthur Lewis, Nobel Prize Economics, 1979
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 06:55:04 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:25:04 -0430
Subject: [governance] Election process - message to list coordinators
In-Reply-To: <fa468ac00911250343x151da188x9adb91196b897609@mail.gmail.com>
References: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org>	 <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>	 <804840243145549499@unknownmsgid> <fa468ac00911250343x151da188x9adb91196b897609@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B0D1B18.6070305@paque.net>

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From correia.rui at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 07:04:30 2009
From: correia.rui at gmail.com (Rui Correia)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:04:30 +0200
Subject: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak
In-Reply-To: <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org>
	 <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ec8caada0911250404n491e92a7jb2e5c6a1895ad7ad@mail.gmail.com>

Dear All

Is this fair and ethical?

I applaud the request for information about the candidates suitability
for the task.

However, surely then, it should be equally applied to all candidates.
We should not have a situation in which a candidate is prejudiced by
his frank answers, where in fact he might be better that others,
except that we don't know that because such information was not
request of the others.

Best regards,

Rui, Consultant on free and fair elections in Southern Africa.



2009/11/25 Rafik Dammak <rafik.dammak at gmail.com>:
> Hi Yehuda,
> interesting questions :)
> 1/ I only speak "survival kit" Japanese for daily life :)
> 2/ I speak and write on Arabic, French and English
> 3/ more than two years now.
> 4/  complicated question to answer, but basically  I am more focusing on
> ICANN  process and not especially on Internet Addressing issues.
> 5/ I cannot state that I understand well the Japanese system but I start to
> be more sensitive to some of its particularities, I am aware about EU system
> because the special relationship between Tunisia and EU.
>
> I hope that reply at least to some of your questions.
> Thanks!
> rafik
> 2009/11/24 Yehuda Katz <yehudakatz at mailinator.com>
>>
>> Rafik,
>>
>> I'm almost sold on your candidacy, however a few questions:
>>
>> Do you speak and write Japanese?
>>
>> What other linguistic abilities (speak & /or write) do you have?
>>
>> How long have you been following 'Internet Root/Icann Politics' (e.g.:
>> since ?
>> x-year)?
>>
>> What understanding of  Technical Boards (Iana, Icann, RIR's etc. etc...)
>> do you
>> have?
>>
>> What understanding of Polysciences do you possess (Political Systems i.e.:
>> Chinese Govenmental, US Govermental, Japanese, Euro, etc...)?
>>
>> Thnx.
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>



-- 
________________________________________________


Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant
Angola Liaison Consultant
2 Cutten St
Horison
Roodepoort-Johannesburg,
South Africa
Tel/ Fax (+27-11) 766-4336
Mobile (+27) (0) 84-498-6838
_______________
áâãçéêíóôõúç
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From correia.rui at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 07:14:42 2009
From: correia.rui at gmail.com (Rui Correia)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:14:42 +0200
Subject: [governance] Election process - message to list coordinators
In-Reply-To: <804840243145549499@unknownmsgid>
References: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org>
	 <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com>
	 <804840243145549499@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <ec8caada0911250414v596405e2w68c6d624053dcf58@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David

I agree 100% and replied to Rafik's email without seeing that you had
started a separate string.

I repost it here.

"Dear All

Is this fair and ethical?

I applaud the request for information about the candidates suitability
for the task.

However, surely then, it should be equally applied to all candidates.
We should not have a situation in which a candidate is prejudiced by
his frank answers, where in fact he might be better that others,
except that we don't know that because such information was not
request of the others.

Best regards,

Rui, Consultant on free and fair elections in Southern Africa."

2009/11/25 David Souter <david.souter at runbox.com>:
> To the list coordinators:
>
>
>
> I’ve not checked the election rules here, but surely we should not be having
> the kind of interchange below on-list.  All candidates ought to be treated
> equally, with the same opportunity to provide material to those who are
> entitled to vote.  If we are going to conduct an interview process, which is
> what the exchange below amounts to, it should apply to all.
>
>
>
> Message sent by:
>
>
>
> David Souter
>
> Managing Director, ict Development Associates ltd
>
> Visiting Professor in Communications Management, Business School, University
> of Strathclyde
>
> Visiting Senior Fellow, Department of Media and Communications, London
> School of Economics
>
> Associate of the International Institute for Sustainable Development
>
>
>
> 145 Lower Camden, Chislehurst, Kent, BR7 5JD
>
> (+44) (0)20 8467 1148 (fixed line)
>
> (+44) (0)7764 819974 (cellular line)

________________________________________________


Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant
Angola Liaison Consultant
2 Cutten St
Horison
Roodepoort-Johannesburg,
South Africa
Tel/ Fax (+27-11) 766-4336
Mobile (+27) (0) 84-498-6838
_______________
áâãçéêíóôõúç
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Wed Nov 25 07:19:04 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:19:04 +0100
Subject: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak
In-Reply-To: <ec8caada0911250404n491e92a7jb2e5c6a1895ad7ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <sympa.1259025447.85633.544@lists.cpsr.org> <bbd2a2cd0911250324t16fa2f55qf87b7282873e1edf@mail.gmail.com> <ec8caada0911250404n491e92a7jb2e5c6a1895ad7ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA4A8EA2-FDC3-4C15-B617-84C423497B2B@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hi,

I think quizzing people, particularly with odd questions, is not the right model to follow.  Candidate statements have always been sufficient in the past.  If we want to develop a indicative set of questions such statements could address, fine, but this should be done before people decide whether to throw their hats in the ring, not after, and it should be up to them whether and how they want to respond to each.  

Best,

Bill

On Nov 25, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Rui Correia wrote:

> Dear All
> 
> Is this fair and ethical?
> 
> I applaud the request for information about the candidates suitability
> for the task.
> 
> However, surely then, it should be equally applied to all candidates.
> We should not have a situation in which a candidate is prejudiced by
> his frank answers, where in fact he might be better that others,
> except that we don't know that because such information was not
> request of the others.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Rui, Consultant on free and fair elections in Southern Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> 2009/11/25 Rafik Dammak <rafik.dammak at gmail.com>:
>> Hi Yehuda,
>> interesting questions :)
>> 1/ I only speak "survival kit" Japanese for daily life :)
>> 2/ I speak and write on Arabic, French and English
>> 3/ more than two years now.
>> 4/  complicated question to answer, but basically  I am more focusing on
>> ICANN  process and not especially on Internet Addressing issues.
>> 5/ I cannot state that I understand well the Japanese system but I start to
>> be more sensitive to some of its particularities, I am aware about EU system
>> because the special relationship between Tunisia and EU.
>> 
>> I hope that reply at least to some of your questions.
>> Thanks!
>> rafik
>> 2009/11/24 Yehuda Katz <yehudakatz at mailinator.com>
>>> 
>>> Rafik,
>>> 
>>> I'm almost sold on your candidacy, however a few questions:
>>> 
>>> Do you speak and write Japanese?
>>> 
>>> What other linguistic abilities (speak & /or write) do you have?
>>> 
>>> How long have you been following 'Internet Root/Icann Politics' (e.g.:
>>> since ?
>>> x-year)?
>>> 
>>> What understanding of  Technical Boards (Iana, Icann, RIR's etc. etc...)
>>> do you
>>> have?
>>> 
>>> What understanding of Polysciences do you possess (Political Systems i.e.:
>>> Chinese Govenmental, US Govermental, Japanese, Euro, etc...)?
>>> 
>>> Thnx.
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>> 
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>> 
>> 
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>> 
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> 
> Rui Correia
> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant
> Angola Liaison Consultant
> 2 Cutten St
> Horison
> Roodepoort-Johannesburg,
> South Africa
> Tel/ Fax (+27-11) 766-4336
> Mobile (+27) (0) 84-498-6838
> _______________
> áâãçéêíóôõúç
> ____________________________________________________________
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>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Senior Associate
Centre for International Governance
Graduate Institute of International and
 Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
***********************************************************


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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Wed Nov 25 07:43:13 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:43:13 +0100
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk> <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com> <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop> <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>
Message-ID: <77018B6C-7F09-452F-B301-7482FA13373B@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hi

On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:53 AM, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <1259135395.3296.379.camel at anriette-laptop>, at 09:49:55 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> writes
>> At one of the workshops I participated in, the 'Development Agenda'
>> workshop on the 17th organised by Bill Drake, remote participation
>> worked extremely well.
>> 
>> This must in large part have to do with Derrick Cogburn's excellent
>> handling of the process, as well as Bill's sensitivity to the remote
>> participants, and the fact that it was a three hour workshop which meant
>> there was sufficient time to include the remote participants.
> 
> Maybe that's the answer - bringing the audience more positively into the picture. When I was on a panel, there was someone monitoring the remote participation, and periodically asking if anyone had any comments, but none were forthcoming. But that was a room without video - and it was never fully clear to me how many of the non-video rooms had an audio-cast.
> 
>> I also found it helpful as a panellist to have the remote participation
>> (Eluminate) interface open on my laptop which enabled me to interact
>> with the remote participants directly.
> 
> Is that the same application that was running the webcast? (Which had a note on it asking on-site people not to use it because of bandwidth issues)? Maybe part of the panel preparations should be giving at least the chair/moderator a laptop which is pre-registered with the relevant room.

There were two platforms running in parallel.  Derrick arranged to provide Elluminate, which included voice, video, chat, and display of the power points, but when we arrived we discovered that the host had provided a laptop and the standard voice/chat.  Given sound quality issues, we just read out all the questions typed in the two chat spaces, as well as the text of one panelist who was not able to come to Sharm.
> 
>> Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
>> participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
>> IGFs.

Agree with Anriette.

Best,

Bill
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 08:59:06 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:29:06 -0430
Subject: [governance] Co-coordinator duties for reference
Message-ID: <4B0D382A.2070303@gmail.com>

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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 09:38:33 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:38:33 +0500
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
 Amazon does not allow Pakistan to download Kindle Software for PC's
Message-ID: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com>

Issue: Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism - Amazon does
not allow Pakistan to download Kindle Software for PC's

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

I would like to share an example of how Corporate Internet
Authoritarianism may affect us from the developing world that I
recently encountered. The case presented is that Amazon.com's Kindle,
an e-book reader device available for - Amazon does not allow Pakistan
to download Kindle Software for PC's.

The IGF in Sharam El-Sheikh was a very fascinating event. Apart from
the many issues and arguments that arose this year, the participants
displayed use of some fascinating devices for recording or following
through the proceedings that many of us developing world people have
neither seen nor have access to. The major fascination for me was from
small FLIP HD Camcorders and various types of E-book Readers.  During
the IGF or while flying over to the event, I saw many kinds of
wireless e-book readers like Amazon.com's Kindle and some other
European models in the hands of people from the developed world. Upon
asking them the price of their devices they were all US$300 and above.
Here is the link to Kindle:
http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Wireless-Reading-Display-Generation/dp/B0015T963C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1259153142&sr=8-1-catcorr

Bringing my fascination of Wireless E-Book Readers back to Pakistan, I
have been trying to figure out how do various e-books and reports
appear on an e-book reader and whether some special format is required
to view books on such readers. I attempted to access the report
"Informing Communities: Sustaining Democracy in the Digital Age
(Kindle Edition) by The Knight Commission on the Information Needs of
Communities in a Democracy http://report.knightcomm.org/" through
Amazon.com Kindle version.

In order to read such a report on a Kindle device without a Kindle,
one has to have the Kindle E-Book Reader software installed on their
PCs. The following is the message that was displayed on the link given
below in a test attempt to download the Kindle Software for my PC in
order to read the Kindle version of the report "Informing Communities:
Sustaining Democracy in the Digital Age (Kindle Edition) by The Knight
Commission on the Information Needs of Communities in a Democracy"

a. Kindle Software Link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/pc/ref=kcp_pc_lnd_dtl_3

b. Knight Commission's Report Link:
http://www.amazon.com/Informing-Communities-Sustaining-Democracy-ebook/dp/B002RCZAIQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255448042&sr=1-1-spell

c. Kindle Software Denial Link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/pc/download/ref=amb_link_85354831_1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1YM290GP1HNEPAGQSKS4&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=494702651&pf_rd_i=1000426311

Message on Page:
We're sorry. Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.
Are you traveling outside your country?
Sign in to see if Kindle for PC is available for download in your country.
›Continue shopping the Kindle store

Would this mean that if I actually had a Kindle, I would not get
support for it or would not be allowed to have a PC version of the
Kindle software program? Interestingly Amazon.com allows you to
continue shopping but doesn't allow Pakistani's to download the Kindle
Software. Isn't that a wonderfully incredible approach from the one of
the world's e-commerce giants that continue to contribute to
increasing the digital divide over software offerings that they give
in the developed world for free but we from the developing world
cannot access it!

Print screen to see the error is posted on my blog at
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.org

-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From bortzmeyer at internatif.org  Wed Nov 25 10:03:06 2009
From: bortzmeyer at internatif.org (Stephane Bortzmeyer)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:03:06 +0100
Subject: [governance] IETF standard to reserve ".local"?
Message-ID: <20091125150306.GB25848@nic.fr>

For information, here is the Last Call inside IETF for the approval of
a new RFC which would reserve ".local" as a TLD, without bothering to
go through the long and expensive ICANN process.

Do note the section 3.1, which basically states that ICANN can be
ignored:

   Note that this use of the ".local." suffix falls under IETF/IANA
   jurisdiction, not ICANN jurisdiction. DNS is an IETF network
   protocol, governed by protocol rules defined by the IETF. These IETF
   protocol rules dictate character set, maximum name length, packet
   format, etc. ICANN determines additional rules that apply when the
   IETF's DNS protocol is used on the public Internet. In contrast,
   private uses of the DNS protocol on isolated private networks are not
   governed by ICANN. Since this change is a change to the core DNS
   protocol rules, it affects everyone, not just those machines using
   the ICANN-governed Internet. Hence this change falls into the
   category of an IETF protocol rule, not an ICANN usage rule.

   This allocation of responsibility is formally established in
   "Memorandum of Understanding Concerning the Technical Work of the
   Internet Assigned Numbers Authority" [RFC 2860]. Exception (a) of
   clause 4.3 states that the IETF has the authority to instruct IANA
   to reserve pseudo-TLDs as required for protocol design purposes.
   For example, "Reserved Top Level DNS Names" [RFC 2606] defines
   the following pseudo-TLDs:

      .test
      .example
      .invalid
      .localhost
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From karl at cavebear.com  Wed Nov 25 10:09:39 2009
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:09:39 -0800
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B0D48B3.1090601@cavebear.com>

On 11/25/2009 06:38 AM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
> Issue: Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism - Amazon does
> not allow Pakistan to download Kindle Software for PC's

The cause may not be Amazon but rather United States export restrictions 
on cryptographic code such as might be part of the Kindle's digital 
"rights" management code.

		--karl--
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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Wed Nov 25 10:33:56 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:33:56 +0100
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
 Amazon does not allow Pakistan to download Kindle Software for PC's
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <388AF437-BA65-47E6-950E-1EF36004A686@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hi Fouad

On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:

> Message on Page:
> We're sorry. Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.
> Are you traveling outside your country?
> Sign in to see if Kindle for PC is available for download in your country.

Seriously, you think a company not selling a product in a country constitutes "authoritarianism"?

Why contribute to the erosion of words' meaning?  Can't we leave that to the teabaggers et al?

Bill
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 10:50:07 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:50:07 +0500
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <388AF437-BA65-47E6-950E-1EF36004A686@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <388AF437-BA65-47E6-950E-1EF36004A686@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911250750p1909fe7bla446a82af69f2803@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm,

Apologies beforehand, I may have confused the literal meaning of
authoritarian but authoritarianism also applies to an organization and
we can see that within the evolution and stronghold of capitalism and
capitalist approaches, Amazon does fall in to this domain. For
example, Amazon does dictate who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its
website. Secondly it also dictates who can download or not download
from their website.

A government will not provide me a kindle, I will have to approach
Amazon, the organization in this case for it since it is their
product. Its available for sale to all the developed countries and
certain high income regions but not to the third world/low-income/LDC.
Secondly the website clearly shows through its messages that it
withholds my right to access even a free software product.

Authoritarianism does apply to governance regimes but on the Internet,
the corporations were the first ones to apply governance regimes, the
governments only followed as awareness and participation developed.
The electronic network has its own dimensions of evolving governance
models and there is no significant proof of who came first, the
chicken or the egg.

A small and prior example may also come from PayPal and Ebay. We in
the developing world and in particular Pakistan cannot service through
knowledge work the people of the west or developed because they prefer
to pay us through paypal only and in most instances clearly specify
that they will only work with people with paypal accounts. That
immediately applies an exclusion and when PayPal or Ebay are
approached, they maintain their silence or authority on the choice of
whom they give access to or not.

I was referencing the software, free for all otherwise not free for
Pakistan infact not available at all. If more people in the west
produce for kindles in the near future, more divide for people in this
part in accessing that intellectual or knowledge contribution.
Interestingly, there is no price for the software but still no
provision to people in a developing country like Pakistan. Similarly
has been practice by Ebay and PayPal with the denial of any kind of
service. Why keep us out of the e-economy? If we do something on our
own then over pricing is practised on the developing world. Lots of
issues here but I guess we have to now take stock one by one. It still
is access denied.

I believe that the respect of rights online for us in the in the
developing world are also influenced by western corporations. They
sell us expensive Internet, expensive equipment and continue to deny
access to many services they allow for their regions and people.

In my personal opinion, Internet Authoritariansim is still evolving
and its forms are still being identified. Only signifying governmental
regimes as the only available forms of authoritarianism is not justice
to the world online.

My two cents.... :o)

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:33 PM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> Hi Fouad
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>
> Message on Page:
> We're sorry. Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.
> Are you traveling outside your country?
> Sign in to see if Kindle for PC is available for download in your country.
>
> Seriously, you think a company not selling a product in a country
> constitutes "authoritarianism"?
> Why contribute to the erosion of words' meaning?  Can't we leave that to the
> teabaggers et al?
> Bill



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From mariliamaciel at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 11:18:01 2009
From: mariliamaciel at gmail.com (Marilia Maciel)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:18:01 -0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <77018B6C-7F09-452F-B301-7482FA13373B@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>
	 <77018B6C-7F09-452F-B301-7482FA13373B@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,



I am very happy to see that the discussion about remote participation has
continued after the IGF and that is has mobilized very active people on this
list, who have provided valuable inputs and suggestions so far. I agree with
most of what has been said. We will be writing a brief and concise report
about remote participation in the IGF 2009 and I hope that we can include
your opinions. A short questionnaire will be created and advertised.


I would like to share with you some objective information about remote
participation this year. Afterwards, I will send another e-mail with some
personal comments about it.


*Webcast:*

- Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1 (Sinai)

- Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the event
we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other licenses were
given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance with the interests of
the hub organizers in particular workshops. We could not create webex rooms
for all workshops because there were not enough volunteers to be remote
moderators (people to be in the computers, receiving the remote questions
and forwarding them to the panel moderators).

- The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
according to the feedback received so far

- During the event we have managed to integrate the webcast inside Webex,
but due to lack of training of remote moderators (Diplo fellows volunteered
on the first day, young Egyptians volunteered from the second day of the
event onwards) some moderators did not know how to proceed to integrate the
webcast



*Interaction:*

- Webex was the official platform for interaction. The licenses to use Webex
were provided by Cisco and a group of amazing Egyptian technicians were
responsible for installing all the necessary infrastructure in the workshop
rooms. Other platform (Elluminate) was used in one workshop and it was
provided by the workshop organizers.

- Interaction through other channels (Twitter, facebook, etc) was
encouraged, but they were not official channels for remote participation in
the IGF

- We had 11 hubs registered. We have constantly been in touch with 8 of them
during the event and they were actively involved. We have not received
feedback from the others.

- In the rooms in which Webex was available people could send questions
through chat

- If people let us know in advance, they could make audio questions and
remote interventions. If the bandwidth was not enough to guarantee quality
of transmission, we asked remote speakers to record their presentations and
send to us. Ginger and Hong Xue made use of this possibility

- In the main session, questions could be sent by e-mail



*Training:*

- Training in the webex platform was provided for hub organizers, on 10/11,
11/11, 12/11 and 13/11. They could choose of these days to participate

- The original idea was to also train remote moderators, but they were not
appointed in advance, so it was not possible to do it. We have tried as much
as possible to provide assistance to the Egyptian volunteers.



I hope that this information will be useful as a snapshot of what we had
available on the ground and to evaluate what has been done and what should
be done to improve remote participation.



Best wishes,



Marília


On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM, William Drake <
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:

> Hi
>
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:53 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> > In message <1259135395.3296.379.camel at anriette-laptop>, at 09:49:55 on
> Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> writes
> >> At one of the workshops I participated in, the 'Development Agenda'
> >> workshop on the 17th organised by Bill Drake, remote participation
> >> worked extremely well.
> >>
> >> This must in large part have to do with Derrick Cogburn's excellent
> >> handling of the process, as well as Bill's sensitivity to the remote
> >> participants, and the fact that it was a three hour workshop which meant
> >> there was sufficient time to include the remote participants.
> >
> > Maybe that's the answer - bringing the audience more positively into the
> picture. When I was on a panel, there was someone monitoring the remote
> participation, and periodically asking if anyone had any comments, but none
> were forthcoming. But that was a room without video - and it was never fully
> clear to me how many of the non-video rooms had an audio-cast.
> >
> >> I also found it helpful as a panellist to have the remote participation
> >> (Eluminate) interface open on my laptop which enabled me to interact
> >> with the remote participants directly.
> >
> > Is that the same application that was running the webcast? (Which had a
> note on it asking on-site people not to use it because of bandwidth issues)?
> Maybe part of the panel preparations should be giving at least the
> chair/moderator a laptop which is pre-registered with the relevant room.
>
> There were two platforms running in parallel.  Derrick arranged to provide
> Elluminate, which included voice, video, chat, and display of the power
> points, but when we arrived we discovered that the host had provided a
> laptop and the standard voice/chat.  Given sound quality issues, we just
> read out all the questions typed in the two chat spaces, as well as the text
> of one panelist who was not able to come to Sharm.
> >
> >> Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
> >> participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
> >> IGFs.
>
> Agree with Anriette.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>   ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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-- 
Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
FGV Direito Rio

Center of Technology and Society
Getulio Vargas Foundation
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Wed Nov 25 12:14:32 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:14:32 +0000
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK> <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>

In message <4B0D0C01.6060301 at gmail.com>, at 06:20:41 on Wed, 25 Nov 
2009, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> writes
>.  WebEx was available usually in 4 of the workshop rooms, sometimes 
>more, and some main sessions.
...
>The UN webcast was available on audio in 10 rooms, video in about 4 of 
>those.

Hence some of my confusion on the day, with different facilities in 
different rooms.

In message 
<f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c at mail.gmail.com>, at 
14:18:01 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com> 
writes

>Webcast:
>- Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1
>(Sinai)
>
>- Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the
>event we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other
>licenses were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance
>with the interests of the hub organizers in particular workshops.

Similarly, along with some ambiguity in the numbering of the rooms on 
the webcasts (compared to the numbers on the doors) it wasn't clear if 
"middle-numbered" workshops were being audiocast or not [eg Nile Valley 
on day 3]

> We could not create webex rooms for all workshops because there were 
>not enough volunteers to be remote moderators (people to be in the 
>computers, receiving the remote questions and forwarding them to the 
>panel moderators).

We had one of those moderators, but they didn't receive any back traffic 
(hence my original enquiry).

>- The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
>according to the feedback received so far

The video and audio available on the UN website is far better than 
previously available, and exceeds that from most Internet industry 
events I have attended.
-- 
Roland Perry
____________________________________________________________
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From ias_pk at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 12:45:44 2009
From: ias_pk at yahoo.com (Imran Ahmed Shah)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:45:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911250750p1909fe7bla446a82af69f2803@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <304173.41066.qm@web33005.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear Brother Foad and all Frieds,
I also agree with your point of view that many organizations want Maximum Control to Limit Access Rights which is developing DIGTAL DIVIDE between Developed and Under Developed Countries, Rich and Poor users, Urban and Rural Communities.

Following is an example of Blackberry Software limited access to different countries, 
Regarding IP network Camera Application (recently launched by RIM) is free for some countries, and with cost to other countries. 
Note: Pakistan is not in both lists (not available for Pakistan even if we are ready to pay for it) however available for India

We should help M/s ICANN, IGF and others to prepare a Policy to develop a strong Bridge between Digital Divide (which is also included in ICANN Mission for next 3 Years)

---------------------

BlackBerry App World Availability

BlackBerry App World is currently available with both paid and free applications in:

BlackBerry App World is currently available with free applications in:
Brazil1
Venezuela
Argentina
Chile
Mexico
Colombia
Ecuador
Peru
Panama
Costa Rica
Jamaica
Aruba
Bahamas
Cayman Islands
Barbados
Trinidad & Tobago
Dominican Republic
Hong Kong
Singapore
Indonesia
India

1. BlackBerry App World is not currently available in Brazilian Portuguese. Not all applications available in BlackBerry App World are available in Brazilian Portuguese.

Ref: http://appworld.blackberry.com/webstore/content/1693

---------------

Regards, 


Imran Ahmad Shah
[ICANNian since Oct-09]

Fouad Bajwa wrote: 
> Hmm,
> Apologies beforehand, I may have confused the literal meaning of
> authoritarian but authoritarianism also applies to an organization and
> we can see that within the evolution and stronghold of capitalism and
> capitalist approaches, Amazon does fall in to this domain. For
> example, Amazon does dictate who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its
> website. Secondly it also dictates who can download or not download
> from their website.
> A government will not provide me a kindle, I will have to approach
> Amazon, the organization in this case for it since it is their
> product. Its available for sale to all the developed countries and
> certain high income regions but not to the third world/low-income/LDC.
> Secondly the website clearly shows through its messages that it
> withholds my right to access even a free software product.
> Authoritarianism does apply to governance regimes but on the Internet,
> the corporations were the first ones to apply governance regimes, the
> governments only followed as awareness and participation developed.
> The electronic network has its own dimensions of evolving governance
> models and there is no significant proof of who came first, the
> chicken or the egg.
> A small and prior example may also come from PayPal and Ebay. We in
> the developing world and in particular Pakistan cannot service through
> knowledge work the people of the west or developed because they prefer
> to pay us through paypal only and in most instances clearly specify
> that they will only work with people with paypal accounts. That
> immediately applies an exclusion and when PayPal or Ebay are
> approached, they maintain their silence or authority on the choice of
> whom they give access to or not.
> I was referencing the software, free for all otherwise not free for
> Pakistan infact not available at all. If more people in the west
> produce for kindles in the near future, more divide for people in this
> part in accessing that intellectual or knowledge contribution.
> Interestingly, there is no price for the software but still no
> provision to people in a developing country like Pakistan. Similarly
> has been practice by Ebay and PayPal with the denial of any kind of
> service. Why keep us out of the e-economy? If we do something on our
> own then over pricing is practised on the developing world. Lots of
> issues here but I guess we have to now take stock one by one. It still
> is access denied.
> I believe that the respect of rights online for us in the in the
> developing world are also influenced by western corporations. They
> sell us expensive Internet, expensive equipment and continue to deny
> access to many services they allow for their regions and people.
> In my personal opinion, Internet Authoritariansim is still evolving
> and its forms are still being identified. Only signifying governmental
> regimes as the only available forms of authoritarianism is not justice
> to the world online.
> My two cents.... :o)
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:33 PM, William Drake
> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>> Hi Fouad
>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>>
>> Message on Page:
>> We're sorry. Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.
>> Are you traveling outside your country?
>> Sign in to see if Kindle for PC is available for download in your country.
>>
>> Seriously, you think a company not selling a product in a country
>> constitutes "authoritarianism"?
>> Why contribute to the erosion of words' meaning?  Can't we leave that to the
>> teabaggers et al?
>> Bill
> -- 
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> ICT4D & Internet Governance
> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

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From gurstein at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 12:50:56 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:50:56 -0800
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911250750p1909fe7bla446a82af69f2803@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E81B7450C351446E88C19BCC10AB01CA@userPC>

I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate.

The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to the
Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of discussion
around "Rights"... 

If access to the Internet is a necessary requirement for participation in an
"Information Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate
the use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet should
surely fall under that rubric.

I don't know the details of the case under discussion here but it would
follow that if certain information is only accessible on the Internet via a
certain tool then denial of access to that tool is the same as denial of
access to that information.

The interesting addition here from other "Right to the Internet" discussions
(which have I believe, dealt for the most part with access to "national"
information) is that the denial of access to information is within the
international sphere i.e. access of information from one country by someone
in another country and thus raises the issue of an authority which could
support/enforce a "Right to the Internet" at a global level.

MBG

-----Original Message-----
From: Fouad Bajwa [mailto:fouadbajwa at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:50 AM
To: William Drake
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


Hmm,

Apologies beforehand, I may have confused the literal meaning of
authoritarian but authoritarianism also applies to an organization and we
can see that within the evolution and stronghold of capitalism and
capitalist approaches, Amazon does fall in to this domain. For example,
Amazon does dictate who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its website.
Secondly it also dictates who can download or not download from their
website.

A government will not provide me a kindle, I will have to approach Amazon,
the organization in this case for it since it is their product. Its
available for sale to all the developed countries and certain high income
regions but not to the third world/low-income/LDC. Secondly the website
clearly shows through its messages that it withholds my right to access even
a free software product.

Authoritarianism does apply to governance regimes but on the Internet, the
corporations were the first ones to apply governance regimes, the
governments only followed as awareness and participation developed. The
electronic network has its own dimensions of evolving governance models and
there is no significant proof of who came first, the chicken or the egg.

A small and prior example may also come from PayPal and Ebay. We in the
developing world and in particular Pakistan cannot service through knowledge
work the people of the west or developed because they prefer to pay us
through paypal only and in most instances clearly specify that they will
only work with people with paypal accounts. That immediately applies an
exclusion and when PayPal or Ebay are approached, they maintain their
silence or authority on the choice of whom they give access to or not.

I was referencing the software, free for all otherwise not free for Pakistan
infact not available at all. If more people in the west produce for kindles
in the near future, more divide for people in this part in accessing that
intellectual or knowledge contribution. Interestingly, there is no price for
the software but still no provision to people in a developing country like
Pakistan. Similarly has been practice by Ebay and PayPal with the denial of
any kind of service. Why keep us out of the e-economy? If we do something on
our own then over pricing is practised on the developing world. Lots of
issues here but I guess we have to now take stock one by one. It still is
access denied.

I believe that the respect of rights online for us in the in the developing
world are also influenced by western corporations. They sell us expensive
Internet, expensive equipment and continue to deny access to many services
they allow for their regions and people.

In my personal opinion, Internet Authoritariansim is still evolving and its
forms are still being identified. Only signifying governmental regimes as
the only available forms of authoritarianism is not justice to the world
online.

My two cents.... :o)

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:33 PM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> Hi Fouad
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
>
> Message on Page:
> We're sorry. Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan. Are 
> you traveling outside your country? Sign in to see if Kindle for PC is 
> available for download in your country.
>
> Seriously, you think a company not selling a product in a country 
> constitutes "authoritarianism"? Why contribute to the erosion of 
> words' meaning?  Can't we leave that to the teabaggers et al?
> Bill



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

____________________________________________________________
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From andersj at elon.edu  Wed Nov 25 13:46:47 2009
From: andersj at elon.edu (Janna Anderson)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:46:47 -0500
Subject: [governance] IGF follow -
In-Reply-To: <005a01ca6dc3$48e2bdb0$daa83910$@souter@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <C732E5C7.189AE%andersj@elon.edu>

1) We made an ANIMOTO show that features images of many IGC members that you
can access here:

http://animoto.com/play/a5XiG0gFlGBuiJxEZ8dE3Q?

2) Our work from Sharm has not yet all been processed, but much is online at
http://www.imaginingtheinternet.org. We will be adding more video and
photos. We will also later be posting some of the video to YouTube. (Note:
Ars Technica has picked up some of our reporting and the editors there are
sometimes writing inaccurate headlines and lead-ins, example: UN Ponders Net
10 Commandments. Sorry for any inaccuracies conveyed by mainstream media and
bloggers.)

3) Students from Elon University's Imagining the Internet Project have been
asking IG-interested folks to take a QUICK 5-minute survey and they could
really use a few more responses. (They will present results at the US
National Conferences on Undergraduate Research.) Thanks so much to those who
visited with us at Sharm or who already took the survey online. If you
haven¹t, the students would appreciate it if you might find the time to go
to this Survey Monkey address and respond:

 http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=IE0EC11dPufwiqmnXQyTAg_3d_3d

Thanks once again to all who have been so generous.

Best regards, 
Janna Anderson
Director of Imagining the Internet Center, Elon University

> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
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> 
> 

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From seiiti.lists at googlemail.com  Wed Nov 25 14:00:47 2009
From: seiiti.lists at googlemail.com (Seiiti Arata)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:00:47 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
	 <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com> <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>

You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos related
to remote participation:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297

Seiiti

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Roland Perry <
roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:

> In message <4B0D0C01.6060301 at gmail.com>, at 06:20:41 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009,
> Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> writes
>
>  .  WebEx was available usually in 4 of the workshop rooms, sometimes more,
>> and some main sessions.
>>
> ...
>
>> The UN webcast was available on audio in 10 rooms, video in about 4 of
>> those.
>>
>
> Hence some of my confusion on the day, with different facilities in
> different rooms.
>
> In message <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c at mail.gmail.com>,
> at 14:18:01 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
> writes
>
>
>  Webcast:
>> - Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1
>> (Sinai)
>>
>> - Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the
>> event we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other
>> licenses were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance
>> with the interests of the hub organizers in particular workshops.
>>
>
> Similarly, along with some ambiguity in the numbering of the rooms on the
> webcasts (compared to the numbers on the doors) it wasn't clear if
> "middle-numbered" workshops were being audiocast or not [eg Nile Valley on
> day 3]
>
>
>  We could not create webex rooms for all workshops because there were not
>> enough volunteers to be remote moderators (people to be in the computers,
>> receiving the remote questions and forwarding them to the panel moderators).
>>
>
> We had one of those moderators, but they didn't receive any back traffic
> (hence my original enquiry).
>
>
>  - The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
>> according to the feedback received so far
>>
>
> The video and audio available on the UN website is far better than
> previously available, and exceeds that from most Internet industry events I
> have attended.
> --
> Roland Perry
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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From seiiti.lists at googlemail.com  Wed Nov 25 14:05:43 2009
From: seiiti.lists at googlemail.com (Seiiti Arata)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:05:43 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
	 <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com> <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
	 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecd95cb50911251105t73a5dd29gfaf34313035f4f95@mail.gmail.com>

p.s. from what I assume looking at Hong Xue's video is that differently than
Ginger's case (who recorded the video in advance), she is doing her
presentation in real time.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Seiiti Arata
<seiiti.lists at googlemail.com>wrote:

> You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos related
> to remote participation:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297
>
> Seiiti
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Roland Perry <
> roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <4B0D0C01.6060301 at gmail.com>, at 06:20:41 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009,
>> Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> writes
>>
>>  .  WebEx was available usually in 4 of the workshop rooms, sometimes
>>> more, and some main sessions.
>>>
>> ...
>>
>>> The UN webcast was available on audio in 10 rooms, video in about 4 of
>>> those.
>>>
>>
>> Hence some of my confusion on the day, with different facilities in
>> different rooms.
>>
>> In message <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c at mail.gmail.com>,
>> at 14:18:01 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
>> writes
>>
>>
>>  Webcast:
>>> - Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1
>>> (Sinai)
>>>
>>> - Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the
>>> event we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other
>>> licenses were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance
>>> with the interests of the hub organizers in particular workshops.
>>>
>>
>> Similarly, along with some ambiguity in the numbering of the rooms on the
>> webcasts (compared to the numbers on the doors) it wasn't clear if
>> "middle-numbered" workshops were being audiocast or not [eg Nile Valley on
>> day 3]
>>
>>
>>  We could not create webex rooms for all workshops because there were not
>>> enough volunteers to be remote moderators (people to be in the computers,
>>> receiving the remote questions and forwarding them to the panel moderators).
>>>
>>
>> We had one of those moderators, but they didn't receive any back traffic
>> (hence my original enquiry).
>>
>>
>>  - The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
>>> according to the feedback received so far
>>>
>>
>> The video and audio available on the UN website is far better than
>> previously available, and exceeds that from most Internet industry events I
>> have attended.
>> --
>> Roland Perry
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
>
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From mariliamaciel at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 14:18:05 2009
From: mariliamaciel at gmail.com (Marilia Maciel)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:18:05 -0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <ecd95cb50911251105t73a5dd29gfaf34313035f4f95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
	 <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com> <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
	 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <ecd95cb50911251105t73a5dd29gfaf34313035f4f95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7e605ab0911251118s29174567md7b2d7da34d010ac@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Seiiti, you are right. Hong Xue delivered her presentation in real
time, since her connection was more stable. Ginger sent us the link to three
pre-recorded videos. Thank you and Bernard for noticing this.

Thanks also for the link you sent. I highly recommend these videos for those
who want to see how some of the hubs have taken place and the opinions of
remote participants about it.

Best!

Marília

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Seiiti Arata
<seiiti.lists at googlemail.com>wrote:

> p.s. from what I assume looking at Hong Xue's video is that differently
> than Ginger's case (who recorded the video in advance), she is doing her
> presentation in real time.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Seiiti Arata <seiiti.lists at googlemail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos related
>> to remote participation:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297
>>
>> Seiiti
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Roland Perry <
>> roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <4B0D0C01.6060301 at gmail.com>, at 06:20:41 on Wed, 25 Nov
>>> 2009, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> writes
>>>
>>> .  WebEx was available usually in 4 of the workshop rooms, sometimes
>>>> more, and some main sessions.
>>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> The UN webcast was available on audio in 10 rooms, video in about 4 of
>>>> those.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hence some of my confusion on the day, with different facilities in
>>> different rooms.
>>>
>>> In message <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> at 14:18:01 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
>>> writes
>>>
>>>
>>> Webcast:
>>>> - Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1
>>>> (Sinai)
>>>>
>>>> - Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the
>>>> event we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other
>>>> licenses were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance
>>>> with the interests of the hub organizers in particular workshops.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Similarly, along with some ambiguity in the numbering of the rooms on the
>>> webcasts (compared to the numbers on the doors) it wasn't clear if
>>> "middle-numbered" workshops were being audiocast or not [eg Nile Valley on
>>> day 3]
>>>
>>>
>>> We could not create webex rooms for all workshops because there were not
>>>> enough volunteers to be remote moderators (people to be in the computers,
>>>> receiving the remote questions and forwarding them to the panel moderators).
>>>>
>>>
>>> We had one of those moderators, but they didn't receive any back traffic
>>> (hence my original enquiry).
>>>
>>>
>>> - The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
>>>> according to the feedback received so far
>>>>
>>>
>>> The video and audio available on the UN website is far better than
>>> previously available, and exceeds that from most Internet industry events I
>>> have attended.
>>> --
>>> Roland Perry
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
>


-- 
Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
FGV Direito Rio

Center of Technology and Society
Getulio Vargas Foundation
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Wed Nov 25 14:19:30 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:19:30 +0000
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK> <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com>
 <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0MpdKb4CNYDLFAZ+@perry.co.uk>

In message 
<ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5 at mail.gmail.com>, at 
21:00:47 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Seiiti Arata <seiiti.lists at googlemail.com> 
writes
>You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos 
>related to remote participation:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297

I have been admiring your excellent coverage of the event with both 
photos and video. (The only one I saw as-it-happened was Vint Cerf's).
-- 
Roland Perry
____________________________________________________________
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From seiiti.lists at googlemail.com  Wed Nov 25 14:32:25 2009
From: seiiti.lists at googlemail.com (Seiiti Arata)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:32:25 +0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <0MpdKb4CNYDLFAZ+@perry.co.uk>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
	 <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com> <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
	 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <0MpdKb4CNYDLFAZ+@perry.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ecd95cb50911251132w3f415411s800a6a7165aee494@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks, Roland. Resources are limited, so we try to do what is
possible.

You may have noticed that the social media strategy this year had a
minimalist approach:

1. online video www.youtube.com/igf and www.un.org/webcast/igf/ondemand.asp
2. photos http://www.flickr.com/groups/1062424 at N22
3. social networking www.facebook.com/intgovforum
4. microblogging www.twitter.com/intgovforum
5. social publishing www.scribd.com/intgovforum

I know there is much more that can be done, but as they say, the long
journeys start with the first step. I am happy to hear any other suggestion
for continued improvement at sarata at unog.ch

Back to the discussion on remote hubs, I would like to recall that in 2008
our Argentinian and Brazilian friends also reported their hub results on
video (although only Monica Abalo and Gilson Schwartz recorded videos, there
were many others active during the process - I guess it is mostly a matter
of perceived visibility so I'm happy that the Remote Participation Working
Group is facilitating the distribution of information)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puRjbwL0O3M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cZwbIQJrXQ

Best
Seiiti

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Roland Perry <
roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:

> In message <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5 at mail.gmail.com>,
> at 21:00:47 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Seiiti Arata <seiiti.lists at googlemail.com>
> writes
>
>  You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos related
>> to remote participation:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297
>>
>
> I have been admiring your excellent coverage of the event with both photos
> and video. (The only one I saw as-it-happened was Vint Cerf's).
>
> --
> Roland Perry
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
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From carlton.samuels at uwimona.edu.jm  Wed Nov 25 15:15:57 2009
From: carlton.samuels at uwimona.edu.jm (Carlton Samuels)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:15:57 -0500
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <701af9f70911250750p1909fe7bla446a82af69f2803@mail.gmail.com>
References: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com>
	 <388AF437-BA65-47E6-950E-1EF36004A686@graduateinstitute.ch>
	 <701af9f70911250750p1909fe7bla446a82af69f2803@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61a136f40911251215u15b32c3bj633b7cde5f17b644@mail.gmail.com>

I sympathize with Bill's comments here. Oftentimes the restrictions to
online commercial transactions are based on the merchant's assessment of
risk from a fraudulent transaction. I became aware of this issue because I
live in Jamaica and some merchants make Jamaica a high-risk operational
area, effectively locking me out of the transactional relationship.

It is beneath my dignity and on general principle, I refuse to beg anyone to
spend my money with them.  So I go where it is taken without the added
indignity.  Rest assured I will remember them and when they change their
posture, it is my time to withhold my custom.

Regarding electronic readers and FWIW, my friend and colleague Evan
Leibovitch has been exploring a possible open source - or to be more exact,
a more open - solution.

Carlton Samuels
=====================================================

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hmm,
>
> Apologies beforehand, I may have confused the literal meaning of
> authoritarian but authoritarianism also applies to an organization and
> we can see that within the evolution and stronghold of capitalism and
> capitalist approaches, Amazon does fall in to this domain. For
> example, Amazon does dictate who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its
> website. Secondly it also dictates who can download or not download
> from their website.
>
> A government will not provide me a kindle, I will have to approach
> Amazon, the organization in this case for it since it is their
> product. Its available for sale to all the developed countries and
> certain high income regions but not to the third world/low-income/LDC.
> Secondly the website clearly shows through its messages that it
> withholds my right to access even a free software product.
>
> Authoritarianism does apply to governance regimes but on the Internet,
> the corporations were the first ones to apply governance regimes, the
> governments only followed as awareness and participation developed.
> The electronic network has its own dimensions of evolving governance
> models and there is no significant proof of who came first, the
> chicken or the egg.
>
> A small and prior example may also come from PayPal and Ebay. We in
> the developing world and in particular Pakistan cannot service through
> knowledge work the people of the west or developed because they prefer
> to pay us through paypal only and in most instances clearly specify
> that they will only work with people with paypal accounts. That
> immediately applies an exclusion and when PayPal or Ebay are
> approached, they maintain their silence or authority on the choice of
> whom they give access to or not.
>
> I was referencing the software, free for all otherwise not free for
> Pakistan infact not available at all. If more people in the west
> produce for kindles in the near future, more divide for people in this
> part in accessing that intellectual or knowledge contribution.
> Interestingly, there is no price for the software but still no
> provision to people in a developing country like Pakistan. Similarly
> has been practice by Ebay and PayPal with the denial of any kind of
> service. Why keep us out of the e-economy? If we do something on our
> own then over pricing is practised on the developing world. Lots of
> issues here but I guess we have to now take stock one by one. It still
> is access denied.
>
> I believe that the respect of rights online for us in the in the
> developing world are also influenced by western corporations. They
> sell us expensive Internet, expensive equipment and continue to deny
> access to many services they allow for their regions and people.
>
> In my personal opinion, Internet Authoritariansim is still evolving
> and its forms are still being identified. Only signifying governmental
> regimes as the only available forms of authoritarianism is not justice
> to the world online.
>
> My two cents.... :o)
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:33 PM, William Drake
> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> > Hi Fouad
> > On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Fouad Bajwa wrote:
> >
> > Message on Page:
> > We're sorry. Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.
> > Are you traveling outside your country?
> > Sign in to see if Kindle for PC is available for download in your
> country.
> >
> > Seriously, you think a company not selling a product in a country
> > constitutes "authoritarianism"?
> > Why contribute to the erosion of words' meaning?  Can't we leave that to
> the
> > teabaggers et al?
> > Bill
>
>
>
> --
> Regards.
> --------------------------
> Fouad Bajwa
> Advisor & Researcher
> ICT4D & Internet Governance
> Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
> Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
> My Blog: Internet's Governance
> http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
> Follow my Tweets:
> http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
> MAG Interview:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
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From amedinagomez at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 15:56:32 2009
From: amedinagomez at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Antonio_Medina_G=F3mez?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:56:32 -0500
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
	 <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com> <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
	 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2bd2431a0911251256w136f5f16j794ef8e60d7bf542@mail.gmail.com>

I invite you to see video of Colombia Remote Hub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMhjl_wOHA4
Antonio Medina

2009/11/25 Seiiti Arata <seiiti.lists at googlemail.com>

> You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos related
> to remote participation:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297
>
> Seiiti
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Roland Perry <
> roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <4B0D0C01.6060301 at gmail.com>, at 06:20:41 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009,
>> Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> writes
>>
>>  .  WebEx was available usually in 4 of the workshop rooms, sometimes
>>> more, and some main sessions.
>>>
>> ...
>>
>>> The UN webcast was available on audio in 10 rooms, video in about 4 of
>>> those.
>>>
>>
>> Hence some of my confusion on the day, with different facilities in
>> different rooms.
>>
>> In message <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c at mail.gmail.com>,
>> at 14:18:01 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
>> writes
>>
>>
>>  Webcast:
>>> - Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1
>>> (Sinai)
>>>
>>> - Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the
>>> event we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other
>>> licenses were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance
>>> with the interests of the hub organizers in particular workshops.
>>>
>>
>> Similarly, along with some ambiguity in the numbering of the rooms on the
>> webcasts (compared to the numbers on the doors) it wasn't clear if
>> "middle-numbered" workshops were being audiocast or not [eg Nile Valley on
>> day 3]
>>
>>
>>  We could not create webex rooms for all workshops because there were not
>>> enough volunteers to be remote moderators (people to be in the computers,
>>> receiving the remote questions and forwarding them to the panel moderators).
>>>
>>
>> We had one of those moderators, but they didn't receive any back traffic
>> (hence my original enquiry).
>>
>>
>>  - The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
>>> according to the feedback received so far
>>>
>>
>> The video and audio available on the UN website is far better than
>> previously available, and exceeds that from most Internet industry events I
>> have attended.
>> --
>> Roland Perry
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
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>
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From vanda at uol.com.br  Wed Nov 25 17:15:32 2009
From: vanda at uol.com.br (Vanda UOL)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:15:32 -0200
Subject: [governance] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <F22C92ADBE034B888E9C1AC0E565DFA0@userPC>
References: <F22C92ADBE034B888E9C1AC0E565DFA0@userPC>
Message-ID: <018301ca6e1c$d2ae2c10$780a8430$@com.br>

Dear all

 

To whom tomorrow is Thanksgiving , I wish you can share with all you love
only  peace and joy!

 Best,

 

 

cid:image002.jpg at 01C93E96.B7BF8BD0

Vanda Scartezini

Polo Consultores Associados

Alameda Santos 1470 #1407

Tel - +55.11.3266.6253

Mob- +55.11.8181.1464

vanda at uol.com.br

 

 

 

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From amedinagomez at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 17:22:39 2009
From: amedinagomez at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Antonio_Medina_G=F3mez?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:22:39 -0500
Subject: [governance] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <018301ca6e1c$d2ae2c10$780a8430$@com.br>
References: <F22C92ADBE034B888E9C1AC0E565DFA0@userPC>
	 <018301ca6e1c$d2ae2c10$780a8430$@com.br>
Message-ID: <2bd2431a0911251422p5b6f7b3cjb738f489195ec685@mail.gmail.com>

Vanda same to you ... Regards
Antonio Medina

2009/11/25 Vanda UOL <vanda at uol.com.br>

>  Dear all
>
>
>
> To whom tomorrow is Thanksgiving , I wish you can share with all you love
> only  peace and joy!
>
>  Best,
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image002.jpg at 01C93E96.B7BF8BD0]
>
> *Vanda Scartezini***
>
> *Polo Consultores Associados*
>
> *Alameda Santos 1470 #1407*
>
> *Tel - +55.11.3266.6253*
>
> *Mob- +55.11.8181.1464*
>
> *vanda at uol.com.br*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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From shailam at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 25 18:00:25 2009
From: shailam at yahoo.com (shaila mistry)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:00:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Thanksgiving
In-Reply-To: <018301ca6e1c$d2ae2c10$780a8430$@com.br>
References: <F22C92ADBE034B888E9C1AC0E565DFA0@userPC> <018301ca6e1c$d2ae2c10$780a8430$@com.br>
Message-ID: <347232.75264.qm@web55201.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hi All
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you !

Yes I am in USA. I love Thanksgiving because every one can celebrate it. Everyone can join in.
I am from India settled in California and tomorrow I will be cooking from 14 people.

regards
Shaila Rao Mistry

 
Life is too short ....challenge the rules
Forgive quickly ... love truly ...and tenderly
Laugh constantly.....and never stop dreaming! 
 
 




________________________________
From: Vanda UOL <vanda at uol.com.br>
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 2:15:32 PM
Subject: [governance] Thanksgiving

FW: Internet Users Globally  
Dear all
 
To whom tomorrow is Thanksgiving , I wish you can share with all
you love only  peace and joy!
 Best,
 
 
Vanda Scartezini
Polo Consultores Associados
Alameda Santos 1470 #1407
Tel - +55.11.3266.6253
Mob- +55.11.8181.1464
vanda at uol.com.br
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From hongxueipr at gmail.com  Wed Nov 25 23:31:04 2009
From: hongxueipr at gmail.com (Hong Xue)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:31:04 +0800
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <f7e605ab0911251118s29174567md7b2d7da34d010ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>
	 <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com> <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
	 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <ecd95cb50911251105t73a5dd29gfaf34313035f4f95@mail.gmail.com>
	 <f7e605ab0911251118s29174567md7b2d7da34d010ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54535d540911252031m5787b11lce08bcf153087f25@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks to Ginger, Marillia and Bernard for helping me to do the
presentation for "Cloud Computing WS" remotely but in real time. I'm happy
to be a tester of the technologies in use. My user's experience to Webex is
generally good though I could neither see nor hear the local audience's
reaction and my presentation was cut for time constraint (when talking to a
mike alone it was easily to overlook the time). The Q&A session was a little
disappointing to some "remoters", the moderator did not refer a few
questions (including my questions) raised via Webex to the panel at all. I
guess we are still at the test-and-error stage for remote participation.

Hong

-- 
Dr. Hong Xue
Professor of Law
Director of Institute for the Internet Policy & Law (IIPL)
Beijing Normal University
www.iipl.org.cn
19 Xin Jie Kou Wai Street
Beijing 100875 China




On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 3:18 AM, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Seiiti, you are right. Hong Xue delivered her presentation in real
> time, since her connection was more stable. Ginger sent us the link to three
> pre-recorded videos. Thank you and Bernard for noticing this.
>
> Thanks also for the link you sent. I highly recommend these videos for
> those who want to see how some of the hubs have taken place and the opinions
> of remote participants about it.
>
> Best!
>
> Marília
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Seiiti Arata <seiiti.lists at googlemail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> p.s. from what I assume looking at Hong Xue's video is that differently
>> than Ginger's case (who recorded the video in advance), she is doing her
>> presentation in real time.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Seiiti Arata <
>> seiiti.lists at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos
>>> related to remote participation:
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297
>>>
>>> Seiiti
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Roland Perry <
>>> roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <4B0D0C01.6060301 at gmail.com>, at 06:20:41 on Wed, 25 Nov
>>>> 2009, Ginger Paque <gpaque at gmail.com> writes
>>>>
>>>> .  WebEx was available usually in 4 of the workshop rooms, sometimes
>>>>> more, and some main sessions.
>>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> The UN webcast was available on audio in 10 rooms, video in about 4 of
>>>>> those.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hence some of my confusion on the day, with different facilities in
>>>> different rooms.
>>>>
>>>> In message <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c at mail.gmail.com>,
>>>> at 14:18:01 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Marilia Maciel <
>>>> mariliamaciel at gmail.com> writes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Webcast:
>>>>> - Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1
>>>>> (Sinai)
>>>>>
>>>>> - Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the
>>>>> event we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other
>>>>> licenses were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance
>>>>> with the interests of the hub organizers in particular workshops.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, along with some ambiguity in the numbering of the rooms on
>>>> the webcasts (compared to the numbers on the doors) it wasn't clear if
>>>> "middle-numbered" workshops were being audiocast or not [eg Nile Valley on
>>>> day 3]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We could not create webex rooms for all workshops because there were not
>>>>> enough volunteers to be remote moderators (people to be in the computers,
>>>>> receiving the remote questions and forwarding them to the panel moderators).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We had one of those moderators, but they didn't receive any back traffic
>>>> (hence my original enquiry).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
>>>>> according to the feedback received so far
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The video and audio available on the UN website is far better than
>>>> previously available, and exceeds that from most Internet industry events I
>>>> have attended.
>>>> --
>>>> Roland Perry
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>    governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>    governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>
>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
> FGV Direito Rio
>
> Center of Technology and Society
> Getulio Vargas Foundation
> Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>
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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Thu Nov 26 03:18:28 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:18:28 +0100
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <E81B7450C351446E88C19BCC10AB01CA@userPC>
References: <E81B7450C351446E88C19BCC10AB01CA@userPC>
Message-ID: <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hi Michael,

On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:

> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate.

There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being inappropriate.
> 
> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to the
> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of discussion
> around "Rights"... 

Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and not the computer science kind.

It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we can also call them names normally associated with governments that brutalize their populations to retain political power?  Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell everything everywhere else.  

Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.  Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution, local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.  All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.

I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of authoritarianism?  

I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.

Best,

Bill



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From ocl at gih.com  Thu Nov 26 03:42:36 2009
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:42:36 +0100
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
References: <701af9f70911250638m122a9f84t88f6916e23a120f0@mail.gmail.com> <388AF437-BA65-47E6-950E-1EF36004A686@graduateinstitute.ch> <701af9f70911250750p1909fe7bla446a82af69f2803@mail.gmail.com> <61a136f40911251215u15b32c3bj633b7cde5f17b644@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8E9C2EF1809B4190A0FDF0BFCDB0FCBE@GIH.CO.UK>

Carlton Samuels writes:

  I sympathize with Bill's comments here. Oftentimes the restrictions to online commercial transactions are based on the merchant's assessment of risk from a fraudulent transaction. I became aware of this issue because I live in Jamaica and some merchants make Jamaica a high-risk operational area, effectively locking me out of the transactional relationship.



This is absolutely correct.
In the late nineties, I ran an online business selling mobile telephones and mobile telephone accessories. The Web site accepted credit cards, and our policy was to ship worldwide. After a while, it became apparent that an alarmingly higher proportion of credit card fraud emanated from specific countries. Thankfully some of these fraudulous attempts were caught on time by our extended checking, but we needed to ask upon our insurance for several shipments which disappeared and were never paid for. Sadly, filing (remotely) with the local police (and I've got to tell you how much time that took) never yielded any response.
I can therefore understand that for some corporations, it might not make sense to do business with end users in some countries. It is, from my experience, a business reason.

Warmest regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 03:44:00 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:44:00 +0300
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <E81B7450C351446E88C19BCC10AB01CA@userPC>
	 <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911260044g1cfb33efucae7793aee0cff77@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>
>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate.
>
> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being inappropriate.
>>
>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to the
>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of discussion
>> around "Rights"...
>
> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and not the computer science kind.
>
> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we can also call them names normally associated with governments that brutalize their populations to retain political power?  Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell everything everywhere else.
>
> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.  Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution, local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.  All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>
> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of authoritarianism?
>
> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.


+1

I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to say this!

BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?


-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
____________________________________________________________
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 03:51:44 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:51:44 +0500
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch>
References: <E81B7450C351446E88C19BCC10AB01CA@userPC>
	 <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911260051o6a174f48uabc4311d23f5776@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, fiddling around Amazon, shipments to Pakistan are not
available either. They can be shipped to India, to China, to UAE
all Pakistani neighbouring countries but not Pakistan. Very
interesting indeed......

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:18 PM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>
>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate.
>
> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being inappropriate.
>>
>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to the
>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of discussion
>> around "Rights"...
>
> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and not the computer science kind.
>
> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we can also call them names normally associated with governments that brutalize their populations to retain political power?  Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell everything everywhere else.
>
> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.  Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution, local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.  All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>
> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of authoritarianism?
>
> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 04:01:51 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:01:51 -0800
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <EED117CB7A6E4D72BED47E062CCEFDCB@userPC>

Hmmm....

Bill, it might have been good to have actually read what I wrote and engaged
with that rather than a straw man based on a repetition of Fuad's original
statement.

If access to the Internet is a necessary requirement for participation in an
"Information Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate
the use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet should
surely fall under that rubric.

I don't know the details of the case under discussion here but it would
follow that if certain information is only accessible on the Internet via a
certain tool then denial of access to that tool is the same as denial of
access to that information.

To my mind this is not a strictly commercial issue.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: William Drake [mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 12:18 AM
To: Michael Gurstein
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'Fouad Bajwa'
Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


Hi Michael,

On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:

> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate.

There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
inappropriate.
> 
> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to 
> the Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of 
> discussion around "Rights"...

Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any company that
doesn't sell a product in a given country to be "authoritarian."?  Sorry,
but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and not the computer science kind.

It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing country's
market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as imperialist etc.
But now if a firm does not enter a market we can also call them names
normally associated with governments that brutalize their populations to
retain political power?  Maybe you should notify all the groups working
against WTO agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is demanding that
every company everywhere be required to sell everything everywhere else.  

Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys or isn't
allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would apply to other
companies and distribution channels as well.  Let's leave aside the many
reasons why a company might not serve a given market---costs, level of
effective demand, distribution, local partner requirements,
regulatory/policy uncertainty/unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as
Carlton notes), etc etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't
matter.  All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and if
not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.

I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I couldn't buy a
Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't watch most US TV shows over
the net in Switzerland.  I can't see most non-Hollywood US films, e.g.
indies, at Geneva movie theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim
of authoritarianism?  

I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.
Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out why this is so and see if
anything can be done to encourage change?  Might be more productive than
misplaced sloganeering.

Best,

Bill


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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Thu Nov 26 07:14:21 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:14:21 +0100
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <EED117CB7A6E4D72BED47E062CCEFDCB@userPC>
References: <EED117CB7A6E4D72BED47E062CCEFDCB@userPC>
Message-ID: <05E8CDFC-C121-4E8E-AB2F-C471DF6A84A5@graduateinstitute.ch>

Hi Michael,

I did read you message and thought I responded by implication, but I can be more direct if you like.  So leaving aside the "authoritarian" nonsense, which you'd told me not to dismiss and to which I hence responded, if you are saying that people have a human right to be able to purchase any commercially provided tools that can be construed as necessary for access broadly defined, and that companies therefore should have some sort of moral or legal obligation to make said tools available to anyone anywhere, some questions follow. For example, which tools qualify, for which types of access?  My wife just brought home a new camera from Japan.  Did we have a human right to this camera?  After all, to fully access and use the functionalities of Flickr etc we need one.  Does Cannon have an obligation to sell it in every country?  What about pricing?  The thing cost $300 more in Switzerland than it does in Japan; should Cannon be bound to sell it for the lower price here, irrespective of distribution and other costs?  Do I have a human right to customer support?  Via a toll free number?  Software upgrades? What about standards, must they be open as a matter of right? Or substitute a Kindle, iPhone, whatever, for my camera...

POTS universal service requirements are clear and defensible, basic dial tone from territorially bound, price regulated, infrastructure-based operators that have market power etc.  Universal access requirements get a little more complex given the different characteristics and regulatory status of the ISP industry and terminal equipment etc, but the challenges are reasonably tractable and some governments are trying.  But extending the notion of rights and obligations far beyond this seems, to put it mildly, fraught with difficulties.  I'm open to persuasion though, if you'd like to map out the equipment/service/applications/suppliers/terms and conditions etc are to be covered as a matter of right, as well as how and by whom such rights would be established and adjudicated globally etc.  It's a different argument to the one we were talking about and would merit a different subject line, but I'm all eyes.

Thanks,

Bill


On Nov 26, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Michael Gurstein wrote:

> Hmmm....
> 
> Bill, it might have been good to have actually read what I wrote and engaged with that rather than a straw man based on a repetition of Fuad's original statement.
> 
> If access to the Internet is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet should surely fall under that rubric.
> 
> I don't know the details of the case under discussion here but it would follow that if certain information is only accessible on the Internet via a certain tool then denial of access to that tool is the same as denial of access to that information.
> 
> To my mind this is not a strictly commercial issue.
> 
> Mike
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: William Drake [mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 12:18 AM 
> To: Michael Gurstein 
> Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'Fouad Bajwa' 
> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
> 
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
> 
> > I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate.
> 
> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being inappropriate. 
> > 
> > The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to 
> > the Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of 
> > discussion around "Rights"...
> 
> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and not the computer science kind.
> 
> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we can also call them names normally associated with governments that brutalize their populations to retain political power?  Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell everything everywhere else. 
> 
> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.  Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution, local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.  All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
> 
> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of authoritarianism? 
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Bill
> 
> 

***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Senior Associate
Centre for International Governance
Graduate Institute of International and
 Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
***********************************************************


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From ca at cafonso.ca  Thu Nov 26 08:30:26 2009
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:30:26 -0200
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911260044g1cfb33efucae7793aee0cff77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E81B7450C351446E88C19BCC10AB01CA@userPC>	 <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch> <f65fb55e0911260044g1cfb33efucae7793aee0cff77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B0E82F2.3060606@cafonso.ca>

Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about iTunes
or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2 (PS2, an
obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?

I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big companies
create to make us think we have to have it.

--c.a.

McTim wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>
>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate.
>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being inappropriate.
>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to the
>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of discussion
>>> around "Rights"...
>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and not the computer science kind.
>>
>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we can also call them names normally associated with governments that brutalize their populations to retain political power?  Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell everything everywhere else.
>>
>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.  Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution, local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.  All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>
>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of authoritarianism?
>>
>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to say this!
> 
> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
> 
> 

-- 

Carlos A. Afonso
CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
====================================
new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
====================================
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From gadi at anime.org  Thu Nov 26 09:38:38 2009
From: gadi at anime.org (Gadi Evron)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:38:38 +0200
Subject: [governance] New Candidate for Co-coordinator: Rafik Dammak
In-Reply-To: <4B09490D.30407@gmail.com>
References: <4B09490D.30407@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225BC100-9D6E-4B62-81D9-3E2A73D60B53@anime.org>

On Nov 22, 2009, at 4:22 PM, Ginger Paque wrote:
> We now have a third candidate for our upcoming co-coordinator  
> elections: Rafik Dammak. Rafik, would you please post a short bio  
> here on the list?

I am rather new here, and intend to mostly be a lurker.

However, when I saw Rafik's candidacy as one of the first emails I  
received I was very pleased. I met him at IGF Rio in 2007 and was  
impressed. His ideas are always interesting, and his actions speak for  
him. I was hoping he would continue in this field and help create the  
future, so I am very happy indeed to get this email.

While my comments should be taken as those of an outsider to this  
community, I can't think of a better candidate for several positions  
I'd want to fill in my organization than Rafik, especially if there is  
a need for a deep understanding of the subject, and an added social  
value.

And, he is fun.

Happy Thanksgiving,

	Gadi.
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 10:02:20 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:32:20 -0430
Subject: [governance] Workshop reports
Message-ID: <4B0E987C.2090205@gmail.com>

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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Thu Nov 26 10:15:05 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:15:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Searching For Stability In Internet Governance
Message-ID: <sympa.1259248347.22559.220@lists.cpsr.org>

Questioning Authority – Searching For Stability In Internet Governance
By Karl Auerbach | November 13, 2009
CaveBear Press

Art. Ref.:
http://www.cavebear.com/cbblog-archives/000338.html

-
...
Ref: §: Governance, Authority, and Technical Reality

Karl, could you please expand your discussion in parallel to the
Church | State dichotomy. Thnx

e.g.:

    High Wall -|- of Separation 
	   |
       Church -|-  State
[---------------------------] ( Is the same as: )
 Governace -|- Technology
		   |
   High Wall -|- of Separation

---

Study Ref.:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/fp6.cfm


Church:
Hypocentric Belief System
-|-
State: 
Economic System

----------------------------

Governace:
Internet Belief System
-|-
Technolgy:
Electronic System

---

End
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 11:33:39 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:03:39 -0430
Subject: [governance] Co-coordinator Candidate Information online
Message-ID: <4B0EADE3.4010709@gmail.com>

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From meryem at marzouki.info  Thu Nov 26 11:54:22 2009
From: meryem at marzouki.info (Meryem Marzouki)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:54:22 +0100
Subject: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <4B0E82F2.3060606@cafonso.ca>
References: <E81B7450C351446E88C19BCC10AB01CA@userPC>	 <B5088194-F3AF-42E4-8812-0EB8A16053A5@graduateinstitute.ch> <f65fb55e0911260044g1cfb33efucae7793aee0cff77@mail.gmail.com> <4B0E82F2.3060606@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <19B26EA5-90C2-408C-9B49-7B723ED33FE0@marzouki.info>

Hi all,

I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's  
strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -  
speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental rights).
The fact that there exist national, regional, international  
legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services  
providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!

Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet  
is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information  
Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the  
use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some  
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet  
should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it  
differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for  
the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires  
that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use  
of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access  
tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be  
no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,  
allowing access to and production of information as well as full  
participation.

Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's  
Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might  
be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a  
given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not  
the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http:// 
report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on  
a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.

Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a  
personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product  
which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in  
getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would  
qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))

Best,
Meryem

Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :

> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about  
> iTunes
> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2  
> (PS2, an
> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>
> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big  
> companies
> create to make us think we have to have it.
>
> --c.a.
>
> McTim wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not  
>>>> appropriate.
>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being  
>>> inappropriate.
>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a  
>>>> "Right to the
>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain  
>>>> of discussion
>>>> around "Rights"...
>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any  
>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be  
>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and  
>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>
>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing  
>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as  
>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we  
>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments  
>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?   
>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO  
>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting  
>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is  
>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell  
>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>
>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys  
>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would  
>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.   
>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve  
>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,  
>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/ 
>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc  
>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.   
>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and  
>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>
>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I  
>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't  
>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see  
>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie  
>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of  
>>> authoritarianism?
>>>
>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available  
>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out  
>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage  
>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to  
>> say this!
>>
>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>
>>
>
> -- 
>
> Carlos A. Afonso
> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
> ====================================
> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
> ====================================
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

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From gurstein at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 12:05:21 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:05:21 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example of
 Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <05E8CDFC-C121-4E8E-AB2F-C471DF6A84A5@graduateinstitute.ch>
Message-ID: <1AD09295FB3C42A0971A70A5A56ECD9F@userPC>

Gee Bill,
 
I thought I was sufficiently skilled at putting my foot in my mouth without
others trying to do it for me...
 
What I said was...
If access to the Internet is a necessary requirement for participation in an
"Information Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate
the use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet should
surely fall under that rubric. (Nothing there that I can see about Canon,
Flickr, international pricing etc.etc.)

I don't know the details of the case under discussion here but it would
follow that if certain information is only accessible on the Internet via a
certain tool then denial of access to that tool is the same as denial of
access to that information. (on a national level this is for example the
case for ensuring that government information on the web is available in a
format which is accessible by those with different types of disability).

The above logic is I believe the logic behind the determination by that
steadily increasing number of countries which are accepting in one form or
another a "Right to the Internet"...

Since as we all presumably agree, the governance of the Internet (and the
opportunities which the Internet provides) is necessarily global then such
governance, it could/should be argued should follow a similar logic at the
global level.

As you well know many countries followed policy/regulatory strategies to
ensure some sort of universal access to POTS for precisely these
reasons--not going so far as making this a "right" presumably for the
logistical reasons that you point to... Again as you/we all would agree the
Internet and the opportunities that it affords are rather different from
POTS and thus how it and these should be treated in the context of
governance matters should differ as well.

The modalities of implementing such a position I would of course leave to
you and others better versed in such matters than myself.

Best,

Mike    Q\A

-----Original Message-----
From: William Drake [mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 4:14 AM
To: Michael Gurstein
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'Fouad Bajwa'
Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


Hi Michael, 

I did read you message and thought I responded by implication, but I can be
more direct if you like.  So leaving aside the "authoritarian" nonsense,
which you'd told me not to dismiss and to which I hence responded, if you
are saying that people have a human right to be able to purchase any
commercially provided tools that can be construed as necessary for access
broadly defined, and that companies therefore should have some sort of moral
or legal obligation to make said tools available to anyone anywhere, some
questions follow. For example, which tools qualify, for which types of
access?  My wife just brought home a new camera from Japan.  Did we have a
human right to this camera?  After all, to fully access and use the
functionalities of Flickr etc we need one.  Does Cannon have an obligation
to sell it in every country?  What about pricing?  The thing cost $300 more
in Switzerland than it does in Japan; should Cannon be bound to sell it for
the lower price here, irrespective of distribution and other costs?  Do I
have a human right to customer support?  Via a toll free number?  Software
upgrades? What about standards, must they be open as a matter of right? Or
substitute a Kindle, iPhone, whatever, for my camera...

POTS universal service requirements are clear and defensible, basic dial
tone from territorially bound, price regulated, infrastructure-based
operators that have market power etc.  Universal access requirements get a
little more complex given the different characteristics and regulatory
status of the ISP industry and terminal equipment etc, but the challenges
are reasonably tractable and some governments are trying.  But extending the
notion of rights and obligations far beyond this seems, to put it mildly,
fraught with difficulties.  I'm open to persuasion though, if you'd like to
map out the equipment/service/applications/suppliers/terms and conditions
etc are to be covered as a matter of right, as well as how and by whom such
rights would be established and adjudicated globally etc.  It's a different
argument to the one we were talking about and would merit a different
subject line, but I'm all eyes.

Thanks,

Bill


On Nov 26, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Michael Gurstein wrote:


Hmmm.... 

Bill, it might have been good to have actually read what I wrote and engaged
with that rather than a straw man based on a repetition of Fuad's original
statement.

If access to the Internet is a necessary requirement for participation in an
"Information Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate
the use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet should
surely fall under that rubric.

I don't know the details of the case under discussion here but it would
follow that if certain information is only accessible on the Internet via a
certain tool then denial of access to that tool is the same as denial of
access to that information.

To my mind this is not a strictly commercial issue. 

Mike 

-----Original Message----- 
From: William Drake [ <mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch>
mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 12:18 AM 
To: Michael Gurstein 
Cc: governance at lists.cpsr.org; 'Fouad Bajwa' 
Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism - 


Hi Michael, 

On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote: 

> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not appropriate. 

There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
inappropriate. 
> 
> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a "Right to 
> the Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain of 
> discussion around "Rights"... 

Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any company that
doesn't sell a product in a given country to be "authoritarian."?  Sorry,
but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and not the computer science kind.

It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing country's
market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as imperialist etc.
But now if a firm does not enter a market we can also call them names
normally associated with governments that brutalize their populations to
retain political power?  Maybe you should notify all the groups working
against WTO agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is demanding that
every company everywhere be required to sell everything everywhere else.  

Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys or isn't
allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would apply to other
companies and distribution channels as well.  Let's leave aside the many
reasons why a company might not serve a given market---costs, level of
effective demand, distribution, local partner requirements,
regulatory/policy uncertainty/unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as
Carlton notes), etc etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't
matter.  All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and if
not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.

I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I couldn't buy a
Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't watch most US TV shows over
the net in Switzerland.  I can't see most non-Hollywood US films, e.g.
indies, at Geneva movie theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim
of authoritarianism?  

I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available in Pakistan.
Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out why this is so and see if
anything can be done to encourage change?  Might be more productive than
misplaced sloganeering.

Best, 

Bill 



***********************************************************
William J. Drake
Senior Associate
Centre for International Governance
Graduate Institute of International and
 Development Studies
Geneva, Switzerland
william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch
www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html
***********************************************************




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From gurstein at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 12:36:59 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:36:59 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example of
 Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <19B26EA5-90C2-408C-9B49-7B723ED33FE0@marzouki.info>
Message-ID: <CFA16881F1204C7A902A61942F9BB419@userPC>

Thanks Meryem,

I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial formulation...
My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of familiarity with
the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the Internet as a
necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to me rather
too narrow in that one could add/substitute
"development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
"democracy".

Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the Internet as a
necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that allow for or
facilitate the use of the Internet." 

Mike

From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


Hi all,

I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's  
strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -  
speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental rights). The
fact that there exist national, regional, international  
legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services  
providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!

Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet  
is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information  
Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the  
use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some  
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet  
should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it  
differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for  
the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires  
that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use  
of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access  
tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be  
no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,  
allowing access to and production of information as well as full  
participation.

Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's  
Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might  
be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a  
given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not  
the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http:// 
report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on  
a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.

Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a  
personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product  
which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in  
getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would  
qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))

Best,
Meryem

Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :

> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
> iTunes
> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2  
> (PS2, an
> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>
> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to 
> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
> companies
> create to make us think we have to have it.
>
> --c.a.
>
> McTim wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake 
>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>> appropriate.
>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>> inappropriate.
>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>> "Right to the
>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain  
>>>> of discussion
>>>> around "Rights"...
>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be  
>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and  
>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>
>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as  
>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we  
>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments  
>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?   
>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO  
>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting  
>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is  
>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell  
>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>
>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would  
>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.   
>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve  
>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,  
>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/ 
>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc  
>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.   
>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and  
>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>
>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't  
>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see  
>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie  
>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of  
>>> authoritarianism?
>>>
>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out  
>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage  
>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>> say this!
>>
>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Carlos A. Afonso
> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
> ====================================
> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca 
> ====================================
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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From meryem at marzouki.info  Thu Nov 26 12:52:22 2009
From: meryem at marzouki.info (Meryem Marzouki)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 18:52:22 +0100
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance]
 Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <CFA16881F1204C7A902A61942F9BB419@userPC>
References: <CFA16881F1204C7A902A61942F9BB419@userPC>
Message-ID: <3595DF8C-6FBA-4323-9F4A-618FD8CCB3C1@marzouki.info>

Hi Mike,

I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in  
the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I  
meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.

Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :

> Thanks Meryem,
>
> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial  
> formulation...
> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of  
> familiarity with
> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the  
> Internet as a
> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to  
> me rather
> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
> "democracy".
>
> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the  
> Internet as a
> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that  
> allow for or
> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>
> Mike
>
> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet  
> Authoritarianism -
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental  
> rights). The
> fact that there exist national, regional, international
> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>
> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
> participation.
>
> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>
> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>
> Best,
> Meryem
>
> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>
>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>> iTunes
>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>> (PS2, an
>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>
>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>> companies
>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>
>> --c.a.
>>
>> McTim wrote:
>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>> appropriate.
>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>> of discussion
>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>
>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>
>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>
>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>> say this!
>>>
>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Carlos A. Afonso
>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>> ====================================
>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>> ====================================
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 13:03:26 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:03:26 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance]
 Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <3595DF8C-6FBA-4323-9F4A-618FD8CCB3C1@marzouki.info>
Message-ID: <27906D5CB6314BDBBD9626C210C9D74B@userPC>

But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an
education/health/development, or have I missed something.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


Hi Mike,

I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in  
the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I  
meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.

Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :

> Thanks Meryem,
>
> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
> formulation...
> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of  
> familiarity with
> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the  
> Internet as a
> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to  
> me rather
> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
> "democracy".
>
> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
> Internet as a
> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that  
> allow for or
> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>
> Mike
>
> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
> Authoritarianism -
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental  
> rights). The
> fact that there exist national, regional, international
> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>
> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
> participation.
>
> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>
> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>
> Best,
> Meryem
>
> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>
>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>> iTunes
>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>> (PS2, an
>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>
>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>> companies
>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>
>> --c.a.
>>
>> McTim wrote:
>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>> appropriate.
>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>> of discussion
>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>
>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>
>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>
>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>> say this!
>>>
>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Carlos A. Afonso
>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>> ====================================
>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>> ====================================
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 13:03:26 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:03:26 -0800
Subject: [governance] FW: [BOAI]  KEI/IQsensato briefing at WTO
 Ministerial: Tuesday,  December 1
Message-ID: <07D576AC07ED4B009FE05A9F9028D4BD@userPC>

Hmmm...
 
But then maybe the "Rights" formulation and this forum is the wrong venue
for the current discussion...
 
M
 
-----Original Message-----
From: boai-forum-bounces at ecs.soton.ac.uk
[mailto:boai-forum-bounces at ecs.soton.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Peter Suber
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:20 AM
To: SOAF post; BOAI Forum post
Subject: [BOAI] KEI/IQsensato briefing at WTO Ministerial: Tuesday, December
1


[Forwarding from the A2K list.  --Peter Suber.]



Knowledge Ecology International (KEI)/IQsensato are holding a briefing
on a "Proposal for a WTO Agreement on the Supply of Knowledge as a
Global Public Good".

Our event will take place Room B of the Conference Centre Varembe
(CCV) on 1 December 2009 (Tuesday) from 8:30 to 10:00 AM.  The CCV is
located just across from the CICG where the Seventh WTO MInisterial
will take place.


Proposal for a WTO Agreement on the Supply of Knowledge as a Global
Public Good

Confirmed speakers include:

James Love (Director, KEI)
Sisule Musungu (President, IQsensato)

Respondent:
Ahmad Mukthar (Permanent Mission of Pakistan to the WTO)

Context

While the world is confronted with a vast undersupply of global public
goods, we believe that part of the problem is that the current trade
system lacks the sufficient incentives and structures to address the
free riding problems associated with the supply of public goods. There
are increasing calls for a larger supply of public goods and a variety
of proposals that involve government  commitments to increase the
supply of global public goods in specific areas, including but not
limited to major projects such as the Kyoto Protocol to the
International Framework Convention on   Climate Change, the
International Treaty on Plant Genetic Resources, the proposed WIPO
Treaty on Access to Knowledge, and the proposed WHO Biomedical R&D
Treaty.

KEI and IQSensato are planning to examine the complex issues which
surround a new proposal to introduce at WTO an Agreement on the Supply
of Knowledge as a Global Public Good. The goal is to create a new
option that will allow governments to make binding offers and
commitments for the supply of heterogeneous global public goods,
involving in particular knowledge goods.

For more information, contact:

Thiru Balasubramaniam

+41 76 508 0997

------------------------------------------------------------

Thiru Balasubramaniam
Geneva Representative
Knowledge Ecology International (KEI)
thiru at keionline.org

Tel: +41 22 791 6727
Mobile: +41 76 508 0997


!DSPAM:2676,4b0eb9f425621932516707! 
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From meryem at marzouki.info  Thu Nov 26 13:34:36 2009
From: meryem at marzouki.info (Meryem Marzouki)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:34:36 +0100
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance]
 Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <27906D5CB6314BDBBD9626C210C9D74B@userPC>
References: <27906D5CB6314BDBBD9626C210C9D74B@userPC>
Message-ID: <AA0393D6-7144-4E9E-927D-F5E620DD315C@marzouki.info>

My English skills probably need improvement:
First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  
participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  
French, full democratic participation).
Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  
fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  
full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 
health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they?
Meryem

Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :

> But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
> education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
> certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an
> education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:  
> [governance] Example
> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
> the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
> meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>
> Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>
>> Thanks Meryem,
>>
>> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>> formulation...
>> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>> familiarity with
>> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>> Internet as a
>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
>> me rather
>> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
>> "democracy".
>>
>> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>> Internet as a
>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
>> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>> allow for or
>> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>> Authoritarianism -
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
>> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>> rights). The
>> fact that there exist national, regional, international
>> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
>> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>>
>> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
>> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
>> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
>> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
>> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
>> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
>> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
>> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
>> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
>> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
>> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>> participation.
>>
>> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
>> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
>> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
>> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
>> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
>> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
>> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>
>> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
>> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>
>> Best,
>> Meryem
>>
>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>
>>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>>> iTunes
>>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>> (PS2, an
>>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>>
>>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>> companies
>>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>
>>> --c.a.
>>>
>>> McTim wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>>> of discussion
>>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>>
>>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>>> say this!
>>>>
>>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>> ====================================
>>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>> ====================================
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
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>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
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>
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 13:37:13 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:37:13 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance]
 Example of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
In-Reply-To: <AA0393D6-7144-4E9E-927D-F5E620DD315C@marzouki.info>
Message-ID: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC>

Bien sur!

M

-----Original Message-----
From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


My English skills probably need improvement:
First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  
participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  
French, full democratic participation).
Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  
fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  
full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 
health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem

Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :

> But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
> education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
> certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an 
> education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
> [governance] Example
> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
> the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
> meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>
> Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>
>> Thanks Meryem,
>>
>> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>> formulation...
>> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>> familiarity with
>> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>> Internet as a
>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
>> me rather
>> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
>> "democracy".
>>
>> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>> Internet as a
>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
>> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>> allow for or
>> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>> Authoritarianism -
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
>> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>> rights). The
>> fact that there exist national, regional, international
>> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
>> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>>
>> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
>> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
>> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
>> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
>> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
>> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
>> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
>> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
>> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
>> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
>> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>> participation.
>>
>> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
>> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
>> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
>> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
>> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
>> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
>> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>
>> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
>> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>
>> Best,
>> Meryem
>>
>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>
>>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>>> iTunes
>>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>> (PS2, an
>>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>>
>>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>> companies
>>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>
>>> --c.a.
>>>
>>> McTim wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>>> of discussion
>>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>>
>>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>>> say this!
>>>>
>>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>> ====================================
>>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>> ====================================
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>
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From katitza at datos-personales.org  Thu Nov 26 13:49:41 2009
From: katitza at datos-personales.org (Katitza Rodriguez)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:49:41 +0200
Subject: [governance] Workshop reports
In-Reply-To: <4B0E987C.2090205@gmail.com>
References: <4B0E987C.2090205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0BAC324A-A2BB-414D-995C-0E88CE4629F4@datos-personales.org>

Hi

This is a very short deadline. Can we have an extension at least until  
January 10, 2009. ?

On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:02 PM, Ginger Paque wrote:

> For organizers of workshops at the 2009 IGF:
>
> Organizers of workshops and other events are kindly requested to  
> file their reports by 18 December. Submission of a report is a pre- 
> condition for being granted a slot at the 2010 meeting.
> Please use the Web based form http://intgovforum.org/cms/index.php/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=Workshopreports2009 
>  for this purpose or locate your workshop in the list. http://igf.wgig.org/cms/index.php/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSProposals2009ListView
>
> From: http://www.igf2009.org/
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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From gpaque at gmail.com  Thu Nov 26 14:06:46 2009
From: gpaque at gmail.com (Ginger Paque)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:36:46 -0430
Subject: [governance] Workshop reports
In-Reply-To: <0BAC324A-A2BB-414D-995C-0E88CE4629F4@datos-personales.org>
References: <4B0E987C.2090205@gmail.com> <0BAC324A-A2BB-414D-995C-0E88CE4629F4@datos-personales.org>
Message-ID: <4B0ED1C6.8070005@paque.net>

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From anriette at apc.org  Thu Nov 26 14:19:29 2009
From: anriette at apc.org (Anriette Esterhuysen)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:19:29 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
Message-ID: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org>

Dear all

Thanks for collaboration during the IGF. Attached is the APC assessment of
the frouth IGF in ODT format. Will send a PDF later.

Anriette

PS Apologies for cross posting, some of you might have received this already.____________________________________________________________
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From jeanette at wzb.eu  Thu Nov 26 14:24:01 2009
From: jeanette at wzb.eu (Jeanette Hofmann)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:24:01 +0000
Subject: [governance] IGF follow -
In-Reply-To: <C732E5C7.189AE%andersj@elon.edu>
References: <C732E5C7.189AE%andersj@elon.edu>
Message-ID: <4B0ED5D1.7020101@wzb.eu>

Hi Janna, thank you for the ANIMOTO show. The pictures remind me of 
something I read the other day that made me think of the IGF:

"... even among those who support those goals [emancipation, 
solidarity], there will be a variety of perspectives and, thus, a 
'constellation of knowledges' will emerge that does not settle a 
dispute, but provides it with resources for reasoning."

So, lets hope the IGF does indeed contribute to such resources for 
reasoning.

jeanette

Janna Anderson wrote:
> 1) We made an ANIMOTO show that features images of many IGC members that 
> you can access here:
> 
> http://animoto.com/play/a5XiG0gFlGBuiJxEZ8dE3Q?
> 
> 2) Our work from Sharm has not yet all been processed, but much is 
> online at http://www.imaginingtheinternet.org. We will be adding more 
> video and photos. We will also later be posting some of the video to 
> YouTube. (Note: Ars Technica has picked up some of our reporting and the 
> editors there are sometimes writing inaccurate headlines and lead-ins, 
> example: UN Ponders Net 10 Commandments. Sorry for any inaccuracies 
> conveyed by mainstream media and bloggers.)
> 
> 3) Students from Elon University's Imagining the Internet Project have 
> been asking IG-interested folks to take a QUICK 5-minute survey and they 
> could really use a few more responses. (They will present results at the 
> US National Conferences on Undergraduate Research.) Thanks so much to 
> those who visited with us at Sharm or who already took the survey 
> online. If you haven’t, the students would appreciate it if you might 
> find the time to go to this Survey Monkey address and respond:
> 
>  _http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=IE0EC11dPufwiqmnXQyTAg_3d_3d
> _
> Thanks once again to all who have been so generous.
> 
> Best regards,
> Janna Anderson
> Director of Imagining the Internet Center, Elon University
> 
>     ____________________________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Thu Nov 26 14:36:07 2009
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:36:07 -0200
Subject: [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
In-Reply-To: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org>
References: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org>
Message-ID: <4B0ED8A7.80104@cafonso.ca>

Excellent, and quite complete. Thanks to Willie and all who contributed 
to this great work. Is it ok to circulate it beyond APC right away?

[]s fraternos

--c.a.

Anriette Esterhuysen wrote:
> Dear all
> 
> Thanks for collaboration during the IGF. Attached is the APC assessment of
> the frouth IGF in ODT format. Will send a PDF later.
> 
> Anriette
> 
> PS Apologies for cross posting, some of you might have received this already.____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
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From ca at cafonso.ca  Thu Nov 26 14:41:57 2009
From: ca at cafonso.ca (Carlos A. Afonso)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:41:57 -0200
Subject: [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
In-Reply-To: <4B0ED8A7.80104@cafonso.ca>
References: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org> <4B0ED8A7.80104@cafonso.ca>
Message-ID: <4B0EDA05.4040701@cafonso.ca>

Ooops, rethorical question... I now see it is already in the governance 
list.

Great!

--c.a.

Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
> Excellent, and quite complete. Thanks to Willie and all who contributed 
> to this great work. Is it ok to circulate it beyond APC right away?
> 
> []s fraternos
> 
> --c.a.
> 
> Anriette Esterhuysen wrote:
>> Dear all
>>
>> Thanks for collaboration during the IGF. Attached is the APC 
>> assessment of
>> the frouth IGF in ODT format. Will send a PDF later.
>>
>> Anriette
>>
>> PS Apologies for cross posting, some of you might have received this 
>> already.____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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> 
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From vanda at uol.com.br  Thu Nov 26 14:44:13 2009
From: vanda at uol.com.br (Vanda UOL)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:44:13 -0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <ecd95cb50911251132w3f415411s800a6a7165aee494@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>	 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK>	 <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com> <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>	 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>	 <0MpdKb4CNYDLFAZ+@perry.co.uk> <ecd95cb50911251132w3f415411s800a6a7165aee494@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009e01ca6ed0$d7b00350$871009f0$@com.br>

Seiiti

 I am glad to inform that was very easy to follow the event from the
webcast. Clear and nitid images and voices. I could not follow all them, but
the main ones I have attended. 

 I am glad the result was in favor of the continuation of IGF and that the
regional meetings with more effective results get more strenght!

 Best to you and Send my best wishes to Markus Kummel 

 

cid:image002.jpg at 01C93E96.B7BF8BD0

Vanda Scartezini

Polo Consultores Associados

Alameda Santos 1470 #1407

Tel - +55.11.3266.6253

Mob- +55.11.8181.1464

vanda at uol.com.br

 

 

From: Seiiti Arata [mailto:seiiti.lists at googlemail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 5:32 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Roland Perry
Subject: Re: [governance] What happened with the hubs?

 

Many thanks, Roland. Resources are limited, so we try to do what is
possible.

 

You may have noticed that the social media strategy this year had a
minimalist approach:

 

1. online video www.youtube.com/igf and www.un.org/webcast/igf/ondemand.asp

2. photos http://www.flickr.com/groups/1062424 at N22

3. social networking www.facebook.com/intgovforum

4. microblogging www.twitter.com/intgovforum

5. social publishing www.scribd.com/intgovforum

 

I know there is much more that can be done, but as they say, the long
journeys start with the first step. I am happy to hear any other suggestion
for continued improvement at sarata at unog.ch

 

Back to the discussion on remote hubs, I would like to recall that in 2008
our Argentinian and Brazilian friends also reported their hub results on
video (although only Monica Abalo and Gilson Schwartz recorded videos, there
were many others active during the process - I guess it is mostly a matter
of perceived visibility so I'm happy that the Remote Participation Working
Group is facilitating the distribution of information)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puRjbwL0O3M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cZwbIQJrXQ

 

Best

Seiiti

 

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Roland Perry
<roland at internetpolicyagency.com> wrote:

In message <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5 at mail.gmail.com>, at
21:00:47 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Seiiti Arata <seiiti.lists at googlemail.com>
writes

 

You may also be interested to check the YouTube playlist of videos related
to remote participation:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20A41E9403AE0297

 

I have been admiring your excellent coverage of the event with both photos
and video. (The only one I saw as-it-happened was Vint Cerf's).


-- 
Roland Perry
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Thu Nov 26 15:09:22 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 01:09:22 +0500
Subject: [governance] Fw: APC's assessment of the fourth Internet
 Governance Forum
Message-ID: <DD612AE7E028496FAF1FBF4A1B0EE832@shahzad>

APC's Assessment of IGF. Forwarded for your kind information.

best wishes
Shahzad

---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen Higgs" <khiggs at apc.org>

=======================================================================
APC's assessment of the fourth Internet Governance Forum, Sharm
El-Sheikh, 15-18 November 2009

November 26 2009, Johannesburg, South Africa -- The Association for
Progressive Communications, the world's oldest online network of civil
society organisations working on ICTs and social justice, recognises the
importance of the Internet Governance Forum as a unique opportunity to
promote debate and dialogue between all stakeholders, and supports its
continuation. Here we assess the fourth forum concluded on 18 November
2009 and make a number of recommendations moving forward.

Increased recognition of the importance of human rights in internet
governance

Human rights were far more prominent in this year's IGF as reflected in
workshops and main sessions. Most significant was the consensus among
panelists from all stakeholder groups in the main session on 'Security,
Openness and Privacy' that privacy and security are not to be traded off
against one another or seen as opposing priorities which need to be
balanced. Both are equally important.

Workshops focusing on social media, freedom of expression, freedom of
information and sexuality rights all concluded that technical, legal and
other interventions aiming to regulate use of the internet should be
based firmly on internationally recognised human rights instruments, and
leave people with ultimate control over their own being, actions,
interactions, expressions and data online.

Broad consensus was reached that the development of the internet should
take into account existing human rights frameworks (e.g. the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights) that can help  ensure the enhancement of
individual and collective rights related with online communications.
Many agreed that the IGF should identify  concrete mechanisms to defend,
ensure and uphold internet rights in practice and contribute to
challenges expressed at national and international levels for the
development of regulations and/or guidelines that support the
application of already agreed upon rights frameworks.

At the content regulation and sexuality rights workshop organised by the
APC women's programme (APC WNSP) and the Alternative Law Forum workshop
participants argued that user education intended to address potential
harm in an increasingly networked world must integrate a positive sexual
rights approach to adequately respond to both the positive and negative
potential of the internet, especially in relation to children.
Over-emphasis of the “dangers” of the internet could prejudice its
comprehensive use by all users, young and old. As recommended by Wieke
Vink from the Youth Coalition on Sexual and Sexual Reproductive Health
Rights, "What we could do – what we should do, is think creatively about
age-appropriate access to pornography and about developing content which
is more gender-just and open, and about encouraging people to protect
their sexual health, e.g. by using condoms – both in the online and
offline world."

APC is with the many civil society groups who felt that a fresh attempt
should be made to propose that human rights be one of the main themes in
the fifth IGF to be held in Lithuania in 2010.
Social networking, media and privacy rights
'Social media' was the subject of the 'emerging issues' final session
and various workshops which directed attention to  the concerns of
individual users.  These concerns included privacy rights, the right to
anonymity online, the 'right to delete and forget', the impact of data
being used for purposes other than which the user intended, data being
collected without the user's knowledge, and users not knowing what
others know about them .

APC is extremely pleased that this area is gaining prominence in the
IGF. The power of the internet today is felt through user-generated
content, content sharing, and the use of social networking tools in
mobilising people against oppression and repression. It is vital that
policy and regulation enable this while also protecting individuals
against abuse.

An interesting thread in these discussions was the role of
user-education. Some people felt that educating children from a very
early age to be aware of their rights to privacy and safe internet use
should become priority. Others felt that children and young people are
increasingly using the internet on their own terms, and that efforts to
guide them are very unlikely to be successful.

APC believes that privacy advocates need to find a way to articulate
their concerns in a way that makes sense to internet users, and as an
internet community we should consider establishing norms that can be
used to better inform users when they register for social networking
sites. In the use of social networking services, users must be able to
retain control over their data and privacy, and as far as possible, to
develop both technical and legal instruments that enables this in the
simplest way. This requires the owners and operators of social
networking sites to be transparent and accountable to their users what
their privacy policies are and enable users to have control. It was
evident that research and dialogue on policy and regulation and the
behaviour of users and commercial entities is needed and the IGF is the
ideal space for continuing this exploration.

Access1

At the first three IGFs 'access' was a priority issue for APC. We
published an issue paper in 20082 on the consensus that was reached with
regard to the roles of different stakeholders (government, civil
society, business, etc.) and the importance of coherence between ICT and
development policies and public interest regulation. For IGF4, the
challenge was to build on this consensus and to showcase and share
innovative practices by operators and regulators that have successfully
advanced people's access to the internet. Unfortunately, the opportunity
to share workable strategies was not maximised and the proposal
expressed in the 2008 IGF stocktaking session to have smaller roundtable
discussions on issues where there is consensus was dropped, and the
potential for groundbreaking engagement was lost.

A major concern for APC was an observation that many actors felt that
extensive mobile penetration has resolved the access challenge. Many
parts of the world still need large scale deployment of optic fibre to
facilitate affordable access for people for whom last mile or last metre
connectivity is or will be wireless. In this light we emphasised the
importance of broadband backbone, internationally, regionally and
nationally.

Very few people can - as yet - speak coherently about mobile broadband.
Where mobile devices were spoken of, it was mainly in relation to smart
phones and their facility for social networking. Mobile internet is
immensely powerful and will resolve access issues for billions of
individual users, particularly if 'budget telecom' models are used that
make cheap 'pay as you use' internet access available. National
broadband strategies that set out the key players and their
responsibilities as well as targets for broadband roll-out that will
benefit the majority of our populations are also needed.

Cost and affordability remains at the centre of the access challenge.
Regulators are still not effectively preventing practices by powerful
operators such as inflated pricing and anti-competitive behaviour. Yet,
the debate around curtailing monopolies over international gateways and
extortionate interconnection fees - especially in Africa and Latin
America - is lacking in the IGF. This is an issue area where dialogue
and greater transparency is sorely needed and the IGF is an ideal space
for kick-starting such discussions.

These concerns were only partially addressed during this IGF, however,
access is now well established as a critical component of the governance
of the internet. The successful promotion of broadband strategies that
address the above issues are critical for the next stage of the
internet's evolution as a space for greater exchange of information,
education  and culture and as a platform for user-generated content and
participatory democracy.

A Development Agenda for the IGF

Development including measuring the impact of sustainable development,
was highlighted in many workshops and in the main session on internet
governance in the light of the WSIS principles. There was a strong
feeling that with the exception of 'access', development issues have not
received adequate attention in the IGF.

Developing country participation was noticeably low and increasing it
has to be a priority for the next IGF. The responsibility lies not just
with the secretariat and workshop organisers, but with developing
country stakeholders themselves. However, the issue of financial
resources will have to be addressed, particularly to support
participation from civil society, researchers, and small to medium
businesses in developing countries.

One way in which this can be done is to make support available for
speakers and session moderators from developing countries. During the
IGF it was very noticeable that more questions and comments were
received from the floor when session chairs, moderators and speakers
were from developing countries.

Articulating a  development agenda in internet governance would help the
IGF address a range of issues such as capacity building, developing
country participation in internet governance and in the IGF, and
substantive policy issues of concern to developing country stakeholders.

Regional perspectives

National and regional IGFs continue to grow from strength to strength
and is a very clear indicator of the impact of the IGF. A panel on
regional perspectives was included in this year's agenda. We feel these
spaces have an important role to play in linking national, regional and
global dimensions of internet governance within the IGF as a complex
policy system. The IGF should find ways to reflect regional inputs in
the global IGF agenda in a more systematic way. In addition, the
regional and national processes have to be strengthened in their own
right and the nature and character of those processes should be defined
by the regional, national and local actors.

One concern that APC has is that in the absence of more widespread
regional IGFs taking place the issues of certain regions are not being
addressed at the IGF. We urge the participants from regions such as
Central Asia, island states and Southern Africa where regional events
are not currently being convened to endeavour to do so in the next year.

Critical internet resources (CIR)

The CIR main session discussed the new Affirmation of Commitments (AoC)3
between the US government and ICANN and was seen as an important step
forward in internet governance. The AoC has generated a new mood within
the IGF in which the old stand-off regarding US control of ICANN is no
longer a central issue. Stakeholders are visibly more relaxed about
engaging on the critical issues in managing the internet. Nevertheless,
the continued US control over the root zone file remains contentious and
APC proposed  that responsibility for the root zone file be transferred
to ICANN as soon as possible.4

Application of the WSIS Principles: Towards a code of good practice on
access to information, transparency and participation5

This joint initiative between the Council of Europe, the UNECE and APC
took further steps forward in consulting stakeholders on a draft code of
good practice which was well received and a number of internet
governance institutions participated in reviewing the code and expressed
willingness to make use of the code to assess their processes as soon as
the next iteration becomes available6.

The draft document recommends
that:
The development and administration of Internet policy and standards
should be open, transparent and inclusive
Organisations active on Internet governance should disseminate
information about their work in diverse languages
Opportunities to participate in the work of Internet governance entities
should be widely publicised
Internet governance entities should actively foster participation in
their work by all those who are affected by the decisions they make, and
independently of their physical location and financial resources
All information which is relevant to Internet governance and
decision-making should be publically available
Organisations should regularly review their policy and practice with
regard to information, participation and decision making processes.

The Code of Good Practice is an instrument that can play a role in the
practicial implementation of the WSIS principles of multilateralism,
transparency, democracy and multi-stakeholder participation in internet
governance. APC's Anriette Esterhuysen co-moderated the main session on
Internet Governance in the light of the WSIS principles7. The session
explored the extent to which the IGF had fulfilled its mandate in
paragraph 72.i of the Tunis Agenda on the Information Society to
'promote and assess, on an ongoing basis, the embodiment of WSIS
principles in Internet governance processes'. In this session it became
apparent that the WSIS principles have certain lacunae when it comes to
promoting human rights and development in internet governance.

Participation

The lack of sufficient developing country participation was already
mentioned above. Also important is the participation of women. If the
IGF is to be a real multi-stakeholder platform, then serious attention
needs to be paid to the still very visible gender gap at all levels of
access and participation to this forum, including agenda shaping,
representation and diversity within each stakeholder groups.

Of a positive note was the participation of young people and more
effective remote participation. There appeared to be distinct drop in
the average age of IGF participants this year. This is a great
achievement and is particularly important as we address emerging issues
such as the public policy challenges posed by social networking.

Nevertheless, many of the workshops and main sessions that addressed
issues related to the youth, did not have young people as speakers.
Remote participation, while still challenging at times, worked far
better than in previous IGFs. We want to commend all who worked to make
this happen and thank the remote participants for the effort they made
to join.

Worrying events at the 2009 IGF

ONI poster incident

On the first day of the IGF, at a lunch-time event organised by the Open
Net Initiative, a poster promoting a new book called "Access Controlled"
was removed by security personnel on the grounds that contained a
sentence that violated UN policy. The sentence in question read “The
first generation of Internet controls consisted largely of building
firewalls at key Internet gateways; China’s famous “Great Firewall of
China” is one of the first national Internet filtering systems.”
Apparently, the motivation of the United Nations Security office actions
was that the poster displeased Chinese government officials attending
the IGF. APC understands that the IGF has to adhere to UN protocols and
policies. However, it is unfortunate that some governments, by virtue of
their power and position, use protocols to stifle debate and discussion
on issues relevant to internet governance, the very objective of the IGF.

Host Country Honorary Session

On the final day of the IGF,  Mrs Suzanne Mubarak, the wife of the
president of Egypt, hosted a session. The event and resulting shifts in
the programme was only made known to workshop and main session
organisers two days before the Forum commenced. The insertion of an
unscheduled event on the last day of the Forum by the host-country
disrupted the work of the Forum. The intense security required, which
included participants being prohibited from bringing their mobile phones
and cameras into the venue, undermined  the atmosphere of open and
constructive engagement among stake-holders which is a key attribute of
the IGF.  It marred the otherwise exemplary efforts of the Egyptian
Ministry of Communications and Information Technology in hosting the IGF.

The future of the IGF

APC made a statement to support the continuation of the IGF beyond the
expiry of its five-year mandate in 2010 in the “taking stock session”8.
http://www.apc.org/en/node/9601 We highlighted the value of national and
regional IGFs and proposed that thematic IGFs be adopted as a way of
exploring issues in more depth in between the annual meetings.

Conclusion and recommendations

The fourth IGF was a little cautious with regard to making any new
innovations or including new controversial subjects for discussion.
This caution can be partly attributed to the IGF review process and a
desire not to offend any constituency when the IGF’s future is at stake.
The US government’s Affirmation of Commitments which gives ICANN greater
independence from US control also took the sting out of the contentious
debates of the past IGFs on critical internet resources management and
enhanced cooperation on public policy principles affecting such
management. The issue of linguistic diversity has been emerging strongly
albeit primarily  through the focus on Internationalised Domain Names).

The consensus on privacy and security being equally important aspects of
internet governance rather than critical issues that need to be balanced
or traded off against one another is significant and paves the way for
the discussion of a global privacy standard. Perhaps these are signs of
maturity – that the IGF has reached a certain equilibrium and acceptance
of itself as an open space for constructive, forward-looking policy
dialogue.

Going forward APC would like to recommend the following:

1. Regional and national IGFs

APC as a co-convenor of the Latin American and Caribbean and East
African IGFs supports the idea of regional IGFs that can serve the
purpose of defining regional priorities and enabling greater
participation from multiple stakeholders at regional level. We believe
that national IGFs are a powerful mechanism for learning, problem
solving, collective action and building partnership among different
stakeholders at national level. We can commit to participating in
convening regional IGFs in Southern Africa, Southern Europe and South
East Asia - all regions which we feel are not adequately participating
in the global IGF.

2. Thematic IGFs

To address the need  for more in-depth discussion of certain issues in a
maturing IGF APC recommends the introduction of thematic IGFs between
global IGFs. Thematic IGFs can provide forums for individuals with the
necessary expertise from different stakeholder groups to engage specific
issues in greater depth and then communicate the outcomes of their
discussions to the internet community at large, or to specific institutions.

Issues which require more in-depth multi-stakeholder engagement that
emerged at the 2009 IGF include the development of global privacy
standards, user literacy and education, the future of the root zone
file, and a Development Agenda on internet governance.

3. Main sessions on development and on human rights

As stated above we believe that a main session on human rights in
internet governance and a development agenda for internet governance
should be included in the next IGF. We propose that a draft outline of
issues that can form a development agenda in the IGF be developed and
discussed just before the February 2010 open consultation. It can then
be presented for feedback at regional IGFs.

4. Effective resourcing of the IGF secretariat

Over the years of its existence the IGF has developed an adaptive
ecosystem in which all stakeholders can interact on the basis of
equality of input. This is an important dimension which depends on the
adroit and careful shepherding of the IGF performed by the IGF
secretariat under the effective and diplomatic leadership of Nitin Desai
and Markus Kummer. The vital role of the IGF secretariat in its current
form to the success of the IGF should not be under-estimated. We have
heard a lot of corridor talk that the status of the secretariat should
be changed in some way and located more firmly in the UN system. We feel
that the IGF should continue to operate under the auspices of the UN
while continually aiming to enhance its multi-stakeholder nature. If the
IGF is to continue to succeed and make further strides in fulfilling its
mandate, the secretariat needs to be properly resourced.

Some stakeholders think that those countries who provide financial
support to the IGF have more say over its annual programme as a
consequence of their funding of the IGF secretariat. We have not found
this assertion to be true. The IGF secretariat needs independence from
any form of undue influence. We propose that a terms of reference for
donations could be put in place to protect the IGF secretariat’s
independence. In addition, there should be a travel fund for speakers
from developing countries that is accessible and transparently managed
by a multi-stakeholder group, in order to prevent a single stakeholder
exerting undue influence over the selection of funded participants in
the IGF.

5. Multi-Stakeholder Advisory Group meetings and open consultations

We propose that the open consultation be extended to two days and the
MAG meeting reduced to one day. This would maximise the openness of the
process by which input is received and discussed.

6. Innovative and creative meeting formats

We recommend that the IGF continue to develop innovative and creative
meeting formats. The suggestions made earlier in the year at the open
consultations on the IGF programme to have round-table discussions aimed
at building consensus on issues like accessibility, access or child
protection were not taken forward. The super sessions were a step
forward and because they were three hours long it was easier for
faciltators to involve remote participants in the workshops. We feel
that a fresh attempt should be made at IGF5 to experiment with
round-table discussions.

7. Learning from experience in taking stock and going forward

We encourage the secretariat and the hosts of the first four IGFs,
Greece, Brazil, India and Egypt to convene to share lessons learned from
hosting the IGFs and to submit a report to the UN Secretary General and
the Commission on Science and Technology for Development (CSTD) as part
of the input into the continuation of the IGF.

Finally, we would like to thank all who contributed to the fourth IGF:
the government of Egypt, the IGF secretariat, the Multi-Stakeholder
Advisory Group, dynamic coalitions and workshop organisers, those who
provided financial support, speakers and moderators, the Egyptian
volunteers who provided technical and logistical support, and all the
IGF participants who help make this such a unique event.



____________________________________________________________
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From shahzad at bytesforall.net  Fri Nov 27 04:23:56 2009
From: shahzad at bytesforall.net (Shahzad Ahmad)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:23:56 +0500
Subject: [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
References: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org><4B0ED8A7.80104@cafonso.ca> <4B0F788C.3080708@apc.org>
Message-ID: <15AD0227F2934F2AB2209174D2347330@shahzad>

This is fantastic work...and I can fairly say that IGF Secretariat and MAG 
can use it as reference for further refinement of the process towards 
IGF2010 and beyond.

Best wishes and regards
Shahzad

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Willie Currie" <wcurrie at apc.org>
To: "Private work space for APC members, staff and partners participating in 
the IGF" <apc-igf at lists.apc.org>
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [APC-IGF] [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF


Thanks, Carlos. I think we had a great team effort between members,
partners and staff at the IGF and were able to cover most of the issues.

warm regards
Willie

Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
> Excellent, and quite complete. Thanks to Willie and all who
> contributed to this great work. Is it ok to circulate it beyond APC
> right away?
>
> []s fraternos
>
> --c.a.
>
> Anriette Esterhuysen wrote:
>> Dear all
>>
>> Thanks for collaboration during the IGF. Attached is the APC
>> assessment of
>> the frouth IGF in ODT format. Will send a PDF later.
>>
>> Anriette
>>
>> PS Apologies for cross posting, some of you might have received this
>> already.____________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________
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From jeanette at wzb.eu  Fri Nov 27 04:56:27 2009
From: jeanette at wzb.eu (Jeanette Hofmann)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:56:27 +0000
Subject: [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
In-Reply-To: <15AD0227F2934F2AB2209174D2347330@shahzad>
References: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org><4B0ED8A7.80104@cafonso.ca> <4B0F788C.3080708@apc.org> <15AD0227F2934F2AB2209174D2347330@shahzad>
Message-ID: <4B0FA24B.1000808@wzb.eu>

I fully agree. This is a very good review (even if I don't share APC's 
opinion on the delegation of the IANA functions to ICANN as soon as 
possible. At least I would want to see how the new review panels get 
implemented and what impact they have on the accountability of ICANN.

jeanette

Shahzad Ahmad wrote:
> This is fantastic work...and I can fairly say that IGF Secretariat and MAG 
> can use it as reference for further refinement of the process towards 
> IGF2010 and beyond.
> 
> Best wishes and regards
> Shahzad
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Willie Currie" <wcurrie at apc.org>
> To: "Private work space for APC members, staff and partners participating in 
> the IGF" <apc-igf at lists.apc.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 11:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [APC-IGF] [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
> 
> 
> Thanks, Carlos. I think we had a great team effort between members,
> partners and staff at the IGF and were able to cover most of the issues.
> 
> warm regards
> Willie
> 
> Carlos A. Afonso wrote:
>> Excellent, and quite complete. Thanks to Willie and all who
>> contributed to this great work. Is it ok to circulate it beyond APC
>> right away?
>>
>> []s fraternos
>>
>> --c.a.
>>
>> Anriette Esterhuysen wrote:
>>> Dear all
>>>
>>> Thanks for collaboration during the IGF. Attached is the APC
>>> assessment of
>>> the frouth IGF in ODT format. Will send a PDF later.
>>>
>>> Anriette
>>>
>>> PS Apologies for cross posting, some of you might have received this
>>> already.____________________________________________________________
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
____________________________________________________________
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From b.schombe at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 05:46:11 2009
From: b.schombe at gmail.com (Baudouin SCHOMBE)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:46:11 +0100
Subject: [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
In-Reply-To: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org>
References: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org>
Message-ID: <ecb172de0911270246u1d7246bfr798fc5740f152040@mail.gmail.com>

Very good work, Anriette. So I plan to organize a feedback workshop with
this document. Can you have a french version oh this assessment of fourth
IGF?

Baudouin


2009/11/26 Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org>

> Dear all
>
> Thanks for collaboration during the IGF. Attached is the APC assessment of
> the frouth IGF in ODT format. Will send a PDF later.
>
> Anriette
>
> PS Apologies for cross posting, some of you might have received this
> already.____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>
> For all list information and functions, see:
>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>



-- 
SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN
COORDONNATEUR NATIONAL REPRONTIC
COORDONNATEUR SOUS REGIONAL ACSIS/AFRIQUE CENTRALE
MEMBRE FACILITATEUR GAID AFRIQUE

Téléphone mobile:+243998983491/+243999334571
                          +243811980914
email:b.schombe at gmail.com <email%3Ab.schombe at gmail.com>
blog:http://akimambo.unblog.fr
siège temporaire : A/30 Avenue Mponzo,   Q.Matonge, C/Kalamu
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From mariliamaciel at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 06:17:32 2009
From: mariliamaciel at gmail.com (Marilia Maciel)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:17:32 -0200
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
	 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>
	 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
	 <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>
	 <77018B6C-7F09-452F-B301-7482FA13373B@graduateinstitute.ch>
	 <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7e605ab0911270317r452aae12k52a81bd05e36d461@mail.gmail.com>

In time, just a small but important correction:

The additional Webex licences were made available before the event. We just
did not have enough time to make them work since the beginning and not
enough remote moderators volunteers to put in every room.

I would like to thank Webex technicians and Cisco for the support provided.

Marilia

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear all,
>
>
>
> I am very happy to see that the discussion about remote participation has
> continued after the IGF and that is has mobilized very active people on this
> list, who have provided valuable inputs and suggestions so far. I agree with
> most of what has been said. We will be writing a brief and concise report
> about remote participation in the IGF 2009 and I hope that we can include
> your opinions. A short questionnaire will be created and advertised.
>
>
> I would like to share with you some objective information about remote
> participation this year. Afterwards, I will send another e-mail with some
> personal comments about it.
>
>
> *Webcast:*
>
> - Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1 (Sinai)
>
> - Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until the second day of the
> event we had only license to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other licenses
> were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in accordance with the
> interests of the hub organizers in particular workshops. We could not create
> webex rooms for all workshops because there were not enough volunteers to be
> remote moderators (people to be in the computers, receiving the remote
> questions and forwarding them to the panel moderators).
>
> - The quality of the webcast has been much better than the year before,
> according to the feedback received so far
>
> - During the event we have managed to integrate the webcast inside Webex,
> but due to lack of training of remote moderators (Diplo fellows volunteered
> on the first day, young Egyptians volunteered from the second day of the
> event onwards) some moderators did not know how to proceed to integrate the
> webcast
>
>
>
> *Interaction:*
>
> - Webex was the official platform for interaction. The licenses to use
> Webex were provided by Cisco and a group of amazing Egyptian technicians
> were responsible for installing all the necessary infrastructure in the
> workshop rooms. Other platform (Elluminate) was used in one workshop and it
> was provided by the workshop organizers.
>
> - Interaction through other channels (Twitter, facebook, etc) was
> encouraged, but they were not official channels for remote participation in
> the IGF
>
> - We had 11 hubs registered. We have constantly been in touch with 8 of
> them during the event and they were actively involved. We have not received
> feedback from the others.
>
> - In the rooms in which Webex was available people could send questions
> through chat
>
> - If people let us know in advance, they could make audio questions and
> remote interventions. If the bandwidth was not enough to guarantee quality
> of transmission, we asked remote speakers to record their presentations and
> send to us. Ginger and Hong Xue made use of this possibility
>
> - In the main session, questions could be sent by e-mail
>
>
>
> *Training:*
>
> - Training in the webex platform was provided for hub organizers, on 10/11,
> 11/11, 12/11 and 13/11. They could choose of these days to participate
>
> - The original idea was to also train remote moderators, but they were not
> appointed in advance, so it was not possible to do it. We have tried as much
> as possible to provide assistance to the Egyptian volunteers.
>
>
>
> I hope that this information will be useful as a snapshot of what we had
> available on the ground and to evaluate what has been done and what should
> be done to improve remote participation.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Marília
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM, William Drake <
> william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:53 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>> > In message <1259135395.3296.379.camel at anriette-laptop>, at 09:49:55 on
>> Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> writes
>> >> At one of the workshops I participated in, the 'Development Agenda'
>> >> workshop on the 17th organised by Bill Drake, remote participation
>> >> worked extremely well.
>> >>
>> >> This must in large part have to do with Derrick Cogburn's excellent
>> >> handling of the process, as well as Bill's sensitivity to the remote
>> >> participants, and the fact that it was a three hour workshop which
>> meant
>> >> there was sufficient time to include the remote participants.
>> >
>> > Maybe that's the answer - bringing the audience more positively into the
>> picture. When I was on a panel, there was someone monitoring the remote
>> participation, and periodically asking if anyone had any comments, but none
>> were forthcoming. But that was a room without video - and it was never fully
>> clear to me how many of the non-video rooms had an audio-cast.
>> >
>> >> I also found it helpful as a panellist to have the remote participation
>> >> (Eluminate) interface open on my laptop which enabled me to interact
>> >> with the remote participants directly.
>> >
>> > Is that the same application that was running the webcast? (Which had a
>> note on it asking on-site people not to use it because of bandwidth issues)?
>> Maybe part of the panel preparations should be giving at least the
>> chair/moderator a laptop which is pre-registered with the relevant room.
>>
>> There were two platforms running in parallel.  Derrick arranged to provide
>> Elluminate, which included voice, video, chat, and display of the power
>> points, but when we arrived we discovered that the host had provided a
>> laptop and the standard voice/chat.  Given sound quality issues, we just
>> read out all the questions typed in the two chat spaces, as well as the text
>> of one panelist who was not able to come to Sharm.
>> >
>> >> Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
>> >> participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
>> >> IGFs.
>>
>> Agree with Anriette.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Bill
>>   ____________________________________________________________
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>
>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
> FGV Direito Rio
>
> Center of Technology and Society
> Getulio Vargas Foundation
> Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
>



-- 
Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
FGV Direito Rio

Center of Technology and Society
Getulio Vargas Foundation
Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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From ajp at glocom.ac.jp  Fri Nov 27 06:35:04 2009
From: ajp at glocom.ac.jp (Adam Peake)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:35:04 +0900
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <f7e605ab0911270317r452aae12k52a81bd05e36d461@mail.gmail.com>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>	
 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>	
 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk>	
 <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>	
 <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>	
 <77018B6C-7F09-452F-B301-7482FA13373B@graduateinstitute.ch>	
 <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c@mail.gmail.com>
 <f7e605ab0911270317r452aae12k52a81bd05e36d461@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240819c735685915a0@[192.168.1.160]>

Marilia, thanks for the explanations about how remote access worked.

Roland mentioned he thought the quality very 
high, better that most Internet industry events 
(paraphrasing...)

And all the remote access team, except the local 
Egyptian tech staff, were volunteers, correct? 
Makes it doubly impressive. Great job!

Adam






>In time, just a small but important correction:
>
>The additional Webex licences were made 
>available before the event. We just did not have 
>enough time to make them work since the 
>beginning and not enough remote moderators 
>volunteers to put in every room.
>
>I would like to thank Webex technicians and Cisco for the support provided.
>
>Marilia
>
>On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Marilia Maciel 
><<mailto:mariliamaciel at gmail.com>mariliamaciel at gmail.com> 
>wrote:
>
>Dear all,
>
>
>
>I am very happy to see that the discussion about 
>remote participation has continued after the IGF 
>and that is has mobilized very active people on 
>this list, who have provided valuable inputs and 
>suggestions so far. I agree with most of what 
>has been said. We will be writing a brief and 
>concise report about remote participation in the 
>IGF 2009 and I hope that we can include your 
>opinions. A short questionnaire will be created 
>and advertised.
>
>
>
>I would like to share with you some objective 
>information about remote participation this 
>year. Afterwards, I will send another e-mail 
>with some personal comments about it.
>
>
>Webcast:
>
>- Audio and video transmitted from main session and workshop room 1 (Sinai)
>
>- Audio transmitted from 4 workshop rooms. Until 
>the second day of the event we had only license 
>to use 5 rooms in Webex. When the other licenses 
>were given (day 3), we created more 2 rooms, in 
>accordance with the interests of the hub 
>organizers in particular workshops. We could not 
>create webex rooms for all workshops because 
>there were not enough volunteers to be remote 
>moderators (people to be in the computers, 
>receiving the remote questions and forwarding 
>them to the panel moderators).
>
>- The quality of the webcast has been much 
>better than the year before, according to the 
>feedback received so far
>
>- During the event we have managed to integrate 
>the webcast inside Webex, but due to lack of 
>training of remote moderators (Diplo fellows 
>volunteered on the first day, young Egyptians 
>volunteered from the second day of the event 
>onwards) some moderators did not know how to 
>proceed to integrate the webcast
>
>
>
>Interaction:
>
>- Webex was the official platform for 
>interaction. The licenses to use Webex were 
>provided by Cisco and a group of amazing 
>Egyptian technicians were responsible for 
>installing all the necessary infrastructure in 
>the workshop rooms. Other platform (Elluminate) 
>was used in one workshop and it was provided by 
>the workshop organizers.
>
>- Interaction through other channels (Twitter, 
>facebook, etc) was encouraged, but they were not 
>official channels for remote participation in 
>the IGF
>
>- We had 11 hubs registered. We have constantly 
>been in touch with 8 of them during the event 
>and they were actively involved. We have not 
>received feedback from the others.
>
>- In the rooms in which Webex was available 
>people could send questions through chat
>
>- If people let us know in advance, they could 
>make audio questions and remote interventions. 
>If the bandwidth was not enough to guarantee 
>quality of transmission, we asked remote 
>speakers to record their presentations and send 
>to us. Ginger and Hong Xue made use of this 
>possibility
>
>- In the main session, questions could be sent by e-mail
>
>
>
>Training:
>
>- Training in the webex platform was provided 
>for hub organizers, on 10/11, 11/11, 12/11 and 
>13/11. They could choose of these days to 
>participate
>
>- The original idea was to also train remote 
>moderators, but they were not appointed in 
>advance, so it was not possible to do it. We 
>have tried as much as possible to provide 
>assistance to the Egyptian volunteers.
>
>
>
>I hope that this information will be useful as a 
>snapshot of what we had available on the ground 
>and to evaluate what has been done and what 
>should be done to improve remote participation.
>
>
>
>Best wishes,
>
>
>
>Marília
>
>
>
>On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM, William Drake 
><<mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch>william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> 
>wrote:
>
>Hi
>
>
>On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:53 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>  In message 
>><1259135395.3296.379.camel at anriette-laptop>, at 
>>09:49:55 on Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Anriette 
>>Esterhuysen 
>><<mailto:anriette at apc.org>anriette at apc.org> 
>>writes
>>>  At one of the workshops I participated in, the 'Development Agenda'
>>>  workshop on the 17th organised by Bill Drake, remote participation
>>>  worked extremely well.
>>>
>>>  This must in large part have to do with Derrick Cogburn's excellent
>>>  handling of the process, as well as Bill's sensitivity to the remote
>>>  participants, and the fact that it was a three hour workshop which meant
>>>  there was sufficient time to include the remote participants.
>>
>>  Maybe that's the answer - bringing the 
>>audience more positively into the picture. When 
>>I was on a panel, there was someone monitoring 
>>the remote participation, and periodically 
>>asking if anyone had any comments, but none 
>>were forthcoming. But that was a room without 
>>video - and it was never fully clear to me how 
>>many of the non-video rooms had an audio-cast.
>>
>>>  I also found it helpful as a panellist to have the remote participation
>>>  (Eluminate) interface open on my laptop which enabled me to interact
>>>  with the remote participants directly.
>>
>>  Is that the same application that was running 
>>the webcast? (Which had a note on it asking 
>>on-site people not to use it because of 
>>bandwidth issues)? Maybe part of the panel 
>>preparations should be giving at least the 
>>chair/moderator a laptop which is 
>>pre-registered with the relevant room.
>
>There were two platforms running in parallel. 
> Derrick arranged to provide Elluminate, which 
>included voice, video, chat, and display of the 
>power points, but when we arrived we discovered 
>that the host had provided a laptop and the 
>standard voice/chat.  Given sound quality 
>issues, we just read out all the questions typed 
>in the two chat spaces, as well as the text of 
>one panelist who was not able to come to Sharm.
>
>  >
>>>  Personally I feel that while there is still a long way to go, remote
>>>  participation was much more effective this year than in the previous
>>>  IGFs.
>
>Agree with Anriette.
>
>Best,
>
>Bill
>
>  ____________________________________________________________
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>
>
>--
>Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
>FGV Direito Rio
>
>Center of Technology and Society
>Getulio Vargas Foundation
>Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
>
>
>
>
>--
>Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade
>FGV Direito Rio
>
>Center of Technology and Society
>Getulio Vargas Foundation
>Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
>
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 06:38:43 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:38:43 +0500
Subject: [governance] State of Telecom Industry In Pakistan 2008-09 -
 Highlights
Message-ID: <701af9f70911270338t1943800k33fe42538f9b6b06@mail.gmail.com>

According to a recent report by Business Recorder Pakistan, the
Pakistani Telecom sector has depicted a remarkable 20 percent growth.
Source: http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=988885&currPageNo=1&query=&search=&term=&supDate

The following are the important highlights fiscal year 2008-09 (July
2008 -  June 2009):
(Thanking Telecompk source
http://telecompk.net/2009/11/22/pta-telecom-industry-pakistan-2008-09/)

You may also be interested in viewing this analysis presented earlier
this year:
tate of the Telecom Industry of Pakistan Final
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16255055/State-of-the-Telecom-Industry-of-Pakistan-Final


Highlights
----------

- Telecom sector revenue grew by 20 percent and generated Rs 327.8
billion as revenue

- Telecom sector paid Rs 112 billion as tax

- Tele-density (percentage of mobile users) of Pakistan stood at 62
percent showing a growth rate of 5.4 percent.

- Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) stood at 815 million dollar

- Total investments in the sector stood at 1.7 billion dollar

- Telecom imports also grew by 20 percent and reached 1.6 billion dollar


Mobile Sector
-------------

- The mobile penetration reached 58.2 percent of the total population

- Total mobile subscribers reached 94.3 million (as of September end
the number is 95.9 million) with more than 90 percent of the country
having access to mobile services

-Prepaid subscription is 98 percent, whereas only 2 percent
subscribers are post-paid

- Revenue: cellular revenues grew by 16 percent and stood at Rs 212
billion at the end of 2008-09
The mobile investments dropped by 48 percent and reached 1.2 billion
dollar in the year under review


LL and WLL
----------

- Basic services (LL. WLL & LDI) showed a healthy revenue growth rate
of 26 percent contributing Rs 113 billion to the sector revenue which
is around 34 percent of the total telecom sector revenue

- With the declining trend in fixed line tele-density reaching 2.2
percent with a total of 3.5 million fixed-line subscribers in the
country

- Wireless local loop (WLL) tele-density stands at 1.6 percent with
2.65 million subscribers across Pakistan



-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 07:06:15 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:06:15 +0500
Subject: [governance] APC assessment of the fourth IGF
In-Reply-To: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org>
References: <49228.41.245.40.249.1259263169.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911270406v360f6581v5f5aa040e343cc29@mail.gmail.com>

Indeed, the APC report is a very detailed and complete perspective
from the participating civil society groups.

However, I would add that where it is mentioned, Increased recognition
of the importance of human rights in internet governance, let us not
forget that the issue of the Development Agenda for the IGF is an
equally important issue and human rights and the development agenda go
hand in hand and I would like to suggest to use Human Rights and
Development Agenda so that the importance of these issues can be
continued to be recognized. We have been observing the interest from
various other multistakeholders that are already taking practical
actions like the Council of Europe etc.....

It is also true that I could clearly see more developed world
participants than us from the developing world and it should be Civil
Societies concentrated effort this round of Open Consultations and MAG
meetings to take forward the following collectively and we should have
an IGC Statement now as a review of the IGF 2009:

1. Increased recognition of the importance of Human Rights in Internet
Governance
2. Increased recognition of the importance of Development Agenda for IGF
3. Increased need for more participation from developing world.

Secondly, on the point no 6 about:
Multi-Stakeholder Advisory Group meetings and open consultations
"We propose that the open consultation be extended to two days and the
MAG meeting reduced to one day. This would maximise the openness of
the process by which input is received and discussed."

- Do we have consensus on this from the other multistakeholders or
this is only from APC's end?

More comments as I go through the report once again....


On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> wrote:
> Dear all
>
> Thanks for collaboration during the IGF. Attached is the APC assessment of
> the frouth IGF in ODT format. Will send a PDF later.
>
> Anriette
>
> PS Apologies for cross posting, some of you might have received this already.____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:>     governance at lists.cpsr.org
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-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
____________________________________________________________
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From parminder at itforchange.net  Fri Nov 27 07:30:21 2009
From: parminder at itforchange.net (Parminder)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:00:21 +0530
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC>
Message-ID: <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>

Hi All

Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting 
discussion...

Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human 
rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance suggesting 
urgent need for global Internet policy making, and developing 
institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The issue also suggests 
that existing global policy institutions do not cover a good deal of new 
ground that is opened up with this global phenomenon of Internet 
becoming an important part of more and more aspects of our social lives...

It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree with 
Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough alternative 
software/ devices and interoperability should be ensured... But the 
point is, who ensures that. Economically less powerful (developing) 
countries do not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  
global digital companies, and so they have to simply submit. The 
developed countries often see strong economic interest in not disturbing 
the 'imperialist' designs of these companies which are almost all based 
in these countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and 
sustaining advantage (the framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism).

Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that 
of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by 
much of civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to 
it - that Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left 
unregulated, mostly. At least there seems to be no urgency to do 
anything about global Internet policy arena. The fear of statist control 
on the Internet has become all that ever counts in any discussion on 
global Internet governance/ policy-making. (This has become almost a 
red-herring now.) This is problematic for developing countries, and to 
the collective interests of the people of these countries,  (the right 
to development) which are in great danger of losing out as the 
(non-level) digital playground is being set out, without due regulation 
in global public interest. To get the right global governance  
institutions and outcomes to address this vital issue, in my opinion, is 
what should centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'.

I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to 
compare such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, 
and will face in future to an even greater extent, like the 
non-availability of 'basic' and enabling software like e-readers, with 
non-availability  of Mexican food in Geneva... It is even more 
inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain persuasion' who in WTO 
arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of  unprotected markets in 
developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to 
raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/ 
devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing 
countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, but 
do clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. They 
proceed from very different logics, but have a convergence in the fact 
that  (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global 
public interest , and (2) the interest of developing countries is often 
different from that of developed countries. Appropriate global 
regulatory and governance systems have to be built which take into 
account these differentials, without being formulaic about it. That in 
my understanding constitutes the development agenda in global forums.

Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - 
like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong exclusionary 
effect of people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen and addressed in 
its real, felt forms and not by simplistic comparisons, which smack of 
insensitivity.

Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services to 
a country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are strong 
issue there still), or Skype not being available in a country which 
would cut its residents off many a global tele-meetings (including civil 
society ones). Or, Google, especially after it has all of us doing every 
second online activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a 
country... this surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva.

Parminder


Michael Gurstein wrote:
> Bien sur!
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>
>
> My English skills probably need improvement:
> First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  
> participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  
> French, full democratic participation).
> Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  
> fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  
> full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 
> health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem
>
> Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>
>   
>> But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
>> education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
>> certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an 
>> education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
>> [governance] Example
>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
>> the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
>> meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>>
>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>
>>     
>>> Thanks Meryem,
>>>
>>> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>>> formulation...
>>> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>>> familiarity with
>>> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>>> Internet as a
>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
>>> me rather
>>> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>>> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
>>> "democracy".
>>>
>>> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>>> Internet as a
>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
>>> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>>> allow for or
>>> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>>> Authoritarianism -
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
>>> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>>> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>>> rights). The
>>> fact that there exist national, regional, international
>>> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
>>> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>>>
>>> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
>>> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>>> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
>>> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
>>> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
>>> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>>> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
>>> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
>>> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
>>> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
>>> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
>>> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
>>> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>>> participation.
>>>
>>> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
>>> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
>>> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
>>> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
>>> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
>>> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
>>> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>>
>>> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>>> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>>> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>>> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
>>> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Meryem
>>>
>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>>>> iTunes
>>>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>>>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>>>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>>> (PS2, an
>>>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>>>
>>>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>>>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>>> companies
>>>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>>
>>>> --c.a.
>>>>
>>>> McTim wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>>>> of discussion
>>>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>>>>             
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>>>> say this!
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>>> ====================================
>>>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>>> ====================================
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>> ____________________________________________________________
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From meryem at marzouki.info  Fri Nov 27 08:22:40 2009
From: meryem at marzouki.info (Meryem Marzouki)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:22:40 +0100
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC> <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <E5FD43F7-393B-4C14-A450-60D2E6AA3647@marzouki.info>

Parminder,

I fully agree with you that regulation of giant corporates - not only  
at global but also at regional and national levesl in countries where  
they operate or have subsidiaries - as you formulate it is an issue  
of foremost importance and that it is much needed. This issue has in  
addition to be dealt with in various fora and framework, not only  
those related to Internet governance, as the "Proposal for a WTO  
Agreement on the Supply of Knowledge as a Global Public Good" example  
forwarded by Michael shows.

However, it's not fair to interpret as "inappropriate",  
"inconsiderate", and "a smack of insensitivity" an - ironical, I  
admit - comment of the very specific and minor consumer issue as the  
one brought by Fouad with the example of Amazon Kindle software for  
PC not being available in Pakistan. By minor, I mean that it's an  
inconvenience, not a violation of human rights nor an obstacle to  
development, not even a breach of any consumer rights (consumer  
rights does not include any "right to consume").

The irony of the comment (comparison with unavailabity of good  
Mexican food in Geneva) was simply proportional to the exageration in  
calling "authoritarianism" the fact that a given commercial product  
is not available in a given country. Words matter, because they  
express concepts and there unadequate use might lead to the dilution  
of these concepts and the softening of problems that really matter,  
by equating them to minor issues. I am sure this was certainly not  
Fouad's intention, but we should be cautious on this kind of process:  
they are intentionally used far too often, and it's so easy to get  
traped.

I lived during the first 25 years of my life in Tunisia, my other  
country of culture and citizenship and my country of birth, still  
have family there and visit them regularly. You cannot imagine the  
number of goods and services that are not available there (not even  
speaking of affordability), for various reasons: market not wide  
enough for some goods or services, too expensive or not worth to be  
imported (the Tunisian Dinar is not quoted on the international  
currency market) and many other commercial or financial reasons as  
already suggested in this discussion. Conversely, there are also  
Tunisian goods and services that I cannot find elsewhere in the  
world. Too bad, but so what?

As far as I'm concerned, I keep the word 'authoritarianism' for cases  
when, e.g. a book cannot be found in Tunisia (or is taken by the  
police in your luggage when you enter the country) for censorship  
reasons, not when I cannot find it easily in any Tunisian bookshop  
simply because no one besides me would be interested in reading (and  
thus buying) it.

Best,
Meryem

Le 27 nov. 09 à 13:30, Parminder a écrit :

> Hi All
>
> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting  
> discussion...
>
> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human  
> rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance suggesting  
> urgent need for global Internet policy making, and developing  
> institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The issue also  
> suggests that existing global policy institutions do not cover a  
> good deal of new ground that is opened up with this global  
> phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more and more  
> aspects of our social lives...
>
> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree  
> with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough  
> alternative software/ devices and interoperability should be  
> ensured... But the point is, who ensures that. Economically less  
> powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to regulate  
> these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies, and so they  
> have to simply submit. The developed countries often see strong  
> economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' designs of  
> these companies which are almost all based in these countries and  
> bring them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining advantage  
> (the framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism).
>
> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals  
> that of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong tendency,  
> shared by much of civil society in the developed world - IGC not  
> being immune to it - that Internet (and its digital ecosystem)  
> should be left unregulated, mostly. At least there seems to be no  
> urgency to do anything about global Internet policy arena. The fear  
> of statist control on the Internet has become all that ever counts  
> in any discussion on global Internet governance/ policy-making.  
> (This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is problematic for  
> developing countries, and to the collective interests of the people  
> of these countries,  (the right to development) which are in great  
> danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital playground is being  
> set out, without due regulation in global public interest. To get  
> the right global governance  institutions and outcomes to address  
> this vital issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally  
> constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'.
>
> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to  
> compare such real problems that developing counties increasingly  
> face, and will face in future to an even greater extent, like the  
> non-availability of 'basic' and enabling software like e-readers,  
> with non-availability  of Mexican food in Geneva... It is even more  
> inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain persuasion' who in WTO  
> arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of  unprotected  
> markets in developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in  
> opposition to raising the issues of necessary provision of basic  
> enabling software/ devices on fair and open standard terms to  
> people of developing countries. Our organization has joined  
> protests on many WTO issues, but do clearly sympathize with the  
> present issue under consideration. They proceed from very different  
> logics, but have a convergence in the fact that  (1) global   
> economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global public  
> interest , and (2) the interest of developing countries is often  
> different from that of developed countries. Appropriate global  
> regulatory and governance systems have to be built which take into  
> account these differentials, without being formulaic about it. That  
> in my understanding constitutes the development agenda in global  
> forums.
>
> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given  
> - like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong  
> exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has to be  
> seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by simplistic  
> comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>
> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related  
> services to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but  
> there are strong issue there still), or Skype not being available  
> in a country which would cut its residents off many a global tele- 
> meetings (including civil society ones). Or, Google, especially  
> after it has all of us doing every second online activity on its  
> platform, cutting off its services to a country... this surely isnt  
> about Mexican food in Geneva.
>
> Parminder
>
>
> Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>
>> Bien sur!
>>
>> M
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:  
>> [governance] Example
>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>
>>
>> My English skills probably need improvement:
>> First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but
>> participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in
>> French, full democratic participation).
>> Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's
>> fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND
>> full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/
>> health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they?  
>> Meryem
>>
>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>
>>
>>> But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
>>> education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less  
>>> significant
>>> certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an
>>> education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
>>> [governance] Example
>>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Mike,
>>>
>>> I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
>>> the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
>>> meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>>>
>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks Meryem,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>>>> formulation...
>>>> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>>>> familiarity with
>>>> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>>>> Internet as a
>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
>>>> me rather
>>>> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>>>> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your  
>>>> terminology of
>>>> "democracy".
>>>>
>>>> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>>>> Internet as a
>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
>>>> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>>>> allow for or
>>>> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>>>> Authoritarianism -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion,  
>>>> it's
>>>> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>>>> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>>>> rights). The
>>>> fact that there exist national, regional, international
>>>> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and  
>>>> services
>>>> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental  
>>>> right!
>>>>
>>>> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
>>>> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>>>> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
>>>> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into  
>>>> some
>>>> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the  
>>>> Internet
>>>> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>>>> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
>>>> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
>>>> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the  
>>>> use
>>>> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
>>>> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
>>>> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be  
>>>> accessible,
>>>> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>>>> participation.
>>>>
>>>> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that  
>>>> Amazon's
>>>> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it  
>>>> might
>>>> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
>>>> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which  
>>>> is not
>>>> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report  
>>>> (http://
>>>> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my  
>>>> browser, on
>>>> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>>>
>>>> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>>>> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>>>> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>>>> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill  
>>>> would
>>>> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Meryem
>>>>
>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>>>>> iTunes
>>>>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot  
>>>>> purchase
>>>>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some  
>>>>> other
>>>>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>>>> (PS2, an
>>>>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>>>>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>>>> companies
>>>>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>>>
>>>>> --c.a.
>>>>>
>>>>> McTim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and  
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>>>>> of discussion
>>>>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic,  
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a  
>>>>>>> developing
>>>>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry  
>>>>>>> this as
>>>>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this  
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>>>>> say this!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>>>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>>>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>>>> ====================================
>>>>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>>>> ====================================
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>
>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>
>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>
>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
>>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>
>>> For all list information and functions, see:
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>>>
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>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 27 08:28:27 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:28:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <581550.24860.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

If it were that I had no voice, how would I speak? If I had no sight how would I see? If I could not read how would I read? If everyone spoke %$&$& and I did not, how could I understand? If no one could see me how could I exist?
 
What silliness. But if we were to change the reality of life and make it global. If in order to really communicate we now needed to do so on a fully global plane. Then the above silliness would take on a whole new meaning. The existance of such basic need/rights as Speech, Press, Medicine, Food, Water, Religion would actually require that: We could speak on a global basis, See on a global basis, read on a global basis and understand on a global basis.
 
It is not and was not my choice to learn, semiphore, morse code, in fact smoke signals, some Navajo, some Hopi, some Spanish, some German, some Creole. But my environment growing up required it to get along, learn, eat and avoid fights, or call for help.
My family has the last remaining "party line" phone in our region.
 
It is not and was not my choice that my pharmaceuticals were made in Europe, South America and Asia. Not my choice that the pipes that bring me water are from China and the fruit in my bowl from Australia. That my clothes are from every continent and my vegatables from Florida and Mexico.
 
It is not my fault that now I need a computer to have the only voice that counts, and to read the only knowledge that is sufficient, even to know if my water and fruits are safe or that my medicine will not kill me. It was not my doing that everything be so internationally globally interconnected that I need online access to asure my childs environment is a safe as can be. But it is now so - I cannot change that.
 
So now I must have a new Voice, Sight, language and understanding and I believe it is my right. Anything less would be to disrespect my dignity.

--- On Fri, 11/27/09, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:


From: Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Michael Gurstein" <gurstein at gmail.com>
Cc: "'Meryem Marzouki'" <meryem at marzouki.info>
Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 12:30 PM


Hi All

Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting discussion...

Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance suggesting urgent need for global Internet policy making, and developing institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The issue also suggests that existing global policy institutions do not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with this global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more and more aspects of our social lives...

It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough alternative software/ devices and interoperability should be ensured... But the point is, who ensures that. Economically less powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies, and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' designs of these companies which are almost all based in these countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining advantage (the framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism). 

Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by much of civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to it - that Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly. At least there seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has become all that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet governance/ policy-making. (This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is problematic for developing countries, and to the collective interests of the people of these countries,  (the right to development) which are in great danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital playground is being set out, without due regulation in global public interest. To get the right global governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital issue, in my opinion, is
 what should centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'. 

I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to compare such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, and will face in future to an even greater extent, like the non-availability of 'basic' and enabling software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of  unprotected markets in developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/ devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. They proceed from very different logics, but have a convergence in the fact that  (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global
 public interest , and (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from that of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems have to be built which take into account these differentials, without being formulaic about it. That in my understanding constitutes the development agenda in global forums. 

Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity. 

Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are strong issue there still), or Skype not being available in a country which would cut its residents off many a global tele-meetings (including civil society ones). Or, Google, especially after it has all of us doing every second online activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a country... this surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva. 

Parminder 


Michael Gurstein wrote: 
Bien sur!

M

-----Original Message-----
From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


My English skills probably need improvement:
First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  
participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  
French, full democratic participation).
Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  
fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  
full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 
health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem

Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :

  
But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an 
education/health/development, or have I missed something.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
[governance] Example
of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -


Hi Mike,

I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.

Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :

    
Thanks Meryem,

I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
formulation...
My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
familiarity with
the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
Internet as a
necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
me rather
too narrow in that one could add/substitute
"development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
"democracy".

Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
Internet as a
necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
allow for or
facilitate the use of the Internet."

Mike

From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
Authoritarianism -


Hi all,

I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
rights). The
fact that there exist national, regional, international
legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!

Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
allowing access to and production of information as well as full
participation.

Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.

Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))

Best,
Meryem

Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :

      
Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
iTunes
or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
(PS2, an
obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?

I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
companies
create to make us think we have to have it.

--c.a.

McTim wrote:
        
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
          
Hi Michael,

On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:

            
I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
appropriate.
              There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
inappropriate.
            
The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
"Right to the
Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
of discussion
around "Rights"...
              Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
"authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
not the computer science kind.

It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
can also call them names normally associated with governments
that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
everything everywhere else.

Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.

I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
authoritarianism?

I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
            +1

I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
say this!

BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?


          --

Carlos A. Afonso
CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
====================================
new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
====================================
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From lisa at global-partners.co.uk  Fri Nov 27 09:00:40 2009
From: lisa at global-partners.co.uk (Lisa Horner)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:00:40 -0000
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <E5FD43F7-393B-4C14-A450-60D2E6AA3647@marzouki.info>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC> <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net> <E5FD43F7-393B-4C14-A450-60D2E6AA3647@marzouki.info>
Message-ID: <43E4CB4D84F7434DB4539B0744B009A02A7CF7@DATASRV.GLOBAL.local>

Just a quick intervention...

 

The Internet Rights and Principles coalition is starting to think in terms of:

(a)    What do our existing fundamental human rights mean in the context of the internet?

(b)   What do we need to do to ensure that the internet supports (rather than undermines) these rights?

 

Issues of open networks, interoperability, consumer choice, inclusive participation in governance etc fall into the second category, which we're working to define in terms of policy principles to implement human rights on the internet..."implementation principles".

 

All the best,

Lisa

From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
Sent: 27 November 2009 13:23
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example

 

Parminder,

 

I fully agree with you that regulation of giant corporates - not only at global but also at regional and national levesl in countries where they operate or have subsidiaries - as you formulate it is an issue of foremost importance and that it is much needed. This issue has in addition to be dealt with in various fora and framework, not only those related to Internet governance, as the "Proposal for a WTO Agreement on the Supply of Knowledge as a Global Public Good" example forwarded by Michael shows.

 

However, it's not fair to interpret as "inappropriate", "inconsiderate", and "a smack of insensitivity" an - ironical, I admit - comment of the very specific and minor consumer issue as the one brought by Fouad with the example of Amazon Kindle software for PC not being available in Pakistan. By minor, I mean that it's an inconvenience, not a violation of human rights nor an obstacle to development, not even a breach of any consumer rights (consumer rights does not include any "right to consume").

 

The irony of the comment (comparison with unavailabity of good Mexican food in Geneva) was simply proportional to the exageration in calling "authoritarianism" the fact that a given commercial product is not available in a given country. Words matter, because they express concepts and there unadequate use might lead to the dilution of these concepts and the softening of problems that really matter, by equating them to minor issues. I am sure this was certainly not Fouad's intention, but we should be cautious on this kind of process: they are intentionally used far too often, and it's so easy to get traped.

 

I lived during the first 25 years of my life in Tunisia, my other country of culture and citizenship and my country of birth, still have family there and visit them regularly. You cannot imagine the number of goods and services that are not available there (not even speaking of affordability), for various reasons: market not wide enough for some goods or services, too expensive or not worth to be imported (the Tunisian Dinar is not quoted on the international currency market) and many other commercial or financial reasons as already suggested in this discussion. Conversely, there are also Tunisian goods and services that I cannot find elsewhere in the world. Too bad, but so what? 

 

As far as I'm concerned, I keep the word 'authoritarianism' for cases when, e.g. a book cannot be found in Tunisia (or is taken by the police in your luggage when you enter the country) for censorship reasons, not when I cannot find it easily in any Tunisian bookshop simply because no one besides me would be interested in reading (and thus buying) it.

 

Best,

Meryem

 

Le 27 nov. 09 à 13:30, Parminder a écrit :





Hi All

Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting discussion...

Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance suggesting urgent need for global Internet policy making, and developing institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The issue also suggests that existing global policy institutions do not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with this global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more and more aspects of our social lives...

It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough alternative software/ devices and interoperability should be ensured... But the point is, who ensures that. Economically less powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies, and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' designs of these companies which are almost all based in these countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining advantage (the framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism). 

Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by much of civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to it - that Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly. At least there seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has become all that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet governance/ policy-making. (This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is problematic for developing countries, and to the collective interests of the people of these countries,  (the right to development) which are in great danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital playground is being set out, without due regulation in global public interest. To get the right global governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'. 

I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to compare such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, and will face in future to an even greater extent, like the non-availability of 'basic' and enabling software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of  unprotected markets in developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/ devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. They proceed from very different logics, but have a convergence in the fact that  (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest , and (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from that of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems have to be built which take into account these differentials, without being formulaic about it. That in my understanding constitutes the development agenda in global forums. 

Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity. 

Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are strong issue there still), or Skype not being available in a country which would cut its residents off many a global tele-meetings (including civil society ones). Or, Google, especially after it has all of us doing every second online activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a country... this surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva. 

Parminder 


Michael Gurstein wrote: 

Bien sur!
 
M
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
 
 
My English skills probably need improvement:
First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  
participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  
French, full democratic participation).
Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  
fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  
full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 
health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem
 
Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
 
  

	But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
	education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
	certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an 
	education/health/development, or have I missed something.
	 
	Mike
	 
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
	Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
	To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
	Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
	[governance] Example
	of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
	 
	 
	Hi Mike,
	 
	I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
	the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
	meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
	 
	Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
	 
	    

		Thanks Meryem,
		 
		I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
		formulation...
		My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
		familiarity with
		the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
		Internet as a
		necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
		me rather
		too narrow in that one could add/substitute
		"development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
		"democracy".
		 
		Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
		Internet as a
		necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
		fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
		allow for or
		facilitate the use of the Internet."
		 
		Mike
		 
		From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
		Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
		To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
		Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
		Authoritarianism -
		 
		 
		Hi all,
		 
		I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
		strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
		speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
		rights). The
		fact that there exist national, regional, international
		legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
		providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
		 
		Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
		is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
		Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
		use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
		sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
		should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
		differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
		the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
		that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
		of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
		tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
		no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
		allowing access to and production of information as well as full
		participation.
		 
		Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
		Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
		be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
		given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
		the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
		report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
		a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
		 
		Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
		personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
		which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
		getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
		qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
		 
		Best,
		Meryem
		 
		Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
		 
		      

			Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
			iTunes
			or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
			media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
			developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
			(PS2, an
			obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
			 
			I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
			consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
			companies
			create to make us think we have to have it.
			 
			--c.a.
			 
			McTim wrote:
			        

				On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
				<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> <mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch>  wrote:
				          

					Hi Michael,
					 
					On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
					 
					            

					I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
					appropriate.
					              

					There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
					inappropriate.
					            

					The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
					"Right to the
					Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
					of discussion
					around "Rights"...
					              

					Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
					company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
					"authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
					not the computer science kind.
					 
					It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
					country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
					imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
					can also call them names normally associated with governments
					that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
					Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
					agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
					authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
					demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
					everything everywhere else.
					 
					Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
					or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
					apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
					Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
					a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
					local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
					unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
					etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
					All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
					if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
					 
					I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
					couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
					watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
					most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
					theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
					authoritarianism?
					 
					I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
					in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
					why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
					change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
					            

				+1
				 
				I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
				say this!
				 
				BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
				 
				 
				          

			--
			 
			Carlos A. Afonso
			CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
			Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
			====================================
			new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
			====================================
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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 09:07:58 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:07:58 +0500
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC>
	 <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911270607y1a62e504i84560cedfc76c8ab@mail.gmail.com>

I respect and want to continue to observe the allowance for number of
messages to the list in one day but I must share something to this
fruitful discussion as it seems to be formulating a foundation for the
Development Agenda with respect to Internet Governance.

I may have felt a bit bad and disappointed over comparing the issue of
non-availability of a 'basic' and enabling software like Kindle's
e-reader software, with the non-availability of Mexican food in Geneva
and I am sorry that being in Pakistan I can't find Mexican food and I
can't afford expensive restaurants when I am travelling abroad or I
don't know where are the cheaper Mexican food places across the globe.
Maybe my state of affairs are much deteriorated than the more
privileged people around me but my concerns about Internet Governance
that may be perceived as 'amateur' and less intellectual are also
important.

The Internet is a network of networks. These digital networks can be
by Governments, by the private sector, by the technical community, by
the people, by Civil Society, researchers etc...and there is no limit
to the amounts of digital networks or how they are controlled. This is
the basis for understanding Internet Authoritarianism. It is a display
of Authority over a network irrespective of the state of authorizing
or controlling entity. Limiting the Authority to be define by just a
government is a wrong understanding especially when issues about
Network Neutrality come in context.

A significant point to understand here is that the word Internet
Authoritarianism is still in evolution, keeping aside the literal
meaning of this word. I never heard this word before until I initially
started its discussion some time ago in the IGC. It was not related to
a government or an institution only. It was not the basis of defining
which or authority or what. It brings into context the have and have
nots and the pressures exerted both on purpose or with the intention
of maintaining monopoly, control, exertion of power, dividing access
etc. Its a phrase in evolution without appropriate definition or
consensus on what it exerts to. In fact, no one has authority over the
word Internet Authoritarianism yet and it will be used repeatedly in
various issues and situations.

Somehow when the topic of Internet Authoritarianism comes up, members
from the developed world tend to over power the discussions to
asserting that IA is an outright issue of government and related
governance. In intellectual capacity, that is highly respected but
when you see it from a Civil Society perspective, we want discussion
because its not how we see it who are forced to stay without the
facilities being offered to others. As I clearly mentioned earlier
that Pakistani neighbouring countries can access Amazon and its
offerings including downloads and shipment then why can't Pakistan?
Why is the region stereotyped directly to have a fraudulent and
dishonest onset from the beginning. This would encourage an
understanding on the Internet that once determined should be
applicable to this region for ever?

A key point to raising this discussion was the have and have nots for
us in the developing world. If the global policy making does touch the
issue of Internet Authoritarianism, then who are the implementers?
Will a global policy making initiative provide us from the developing
world access to those facilities that are widely available to the
people of the developed world? Will the global policy making provide
me with e-commerce facilities? Will global policy making be the
interface for access extended to the developing world? If you bring
this to the point that today we can access both versions, the offline
version and the Kindle version but what about the convergence and the
future, what if in the future there would be only one version produced
since the world has embraced Kindles, E-Book Readers and E-Paper as
the main tool for accessing documentation?

If you look in our countries in the developing world with in the
context of off-line commerce, you will find MacDonalds, KFC, Hardies,
Dunkin Doughnuts, Pizza Huts, Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Nestle, Time
Magazines, Publications, Books, Carrefour, Seven-Elevens, Oil
Companies and say nearly 500 multinationals in our region. If that
form of commerce is applicable and there is no fraudulent environment
in the off-line commerce and trade world, why is this implication
practised online? Is this not an outright contradiction of imposing a
superficial corporate internet authority making an independent yet
alone decision not to service one country out of the region? What will
policy analysts and decision makers have to say about this approach?

This is not Fouad's minor issue because Fouad was aware about the
Internet and took the initiative in identifying it. Its an issue for
all of us that we are not included in what is offered to more than a
billion people of the world? Fouad's example of Amazon Kindle software
for PC not being available in Pakistan is a step to realize that there
are more issues like these that may require the attention of the
governors of the Internet and its public participation sphere. May I
ask at this stage why does MIT offer Open Courseware to people
connecting to it from Pakistani IPs? This is to identify that its not
right.

Smaller issues become may become a problem and equating them to minor
issues, true, that was certainly not my intention, but now I am
concerned how this discussion led to being cautious of "this kind of
process: they are intentionally used far too often, and it's so easy
to get traped"?, would this mean our voice from the developing world
should follow a process that is ascertained by someone else for us
otherwise we will fall out of the policy debate?

People may want to be cautious but we will have to understand this
that these digital giants do have a strong influence over authority of
the Internet. They do take decisions that are sometimes not regulated
nor influenced by governments until and unless someone raises the
issue and brings it into light. As Parminder interpreted it right that
"It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree
with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough
alternative software/ devices and interoperability should be
ensured... But the point is, who ensures that." There is no system to
ensure it and no process available to deliberate that. These companies
do have 'imperialist' designs and as Internet Authoritarianism
evolves, it should take into account exploration into this existing
framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism.

If we try to over-emphasize or limit the term Internet
Authoritarianism, it shows that we too want to limit the debate and
discussion or not tread on someone else's turf of Authority. IGC is
not immune to this authority debates and discussions and this is the
space where we members of Civil Society try to bring this into context
and you are all that help in clearly understanding or intellectually
contributing to the evolution or addressing of these issues. The
regulation of these giant corporates display rivalry  of many states
and as Parminder has raised that this understanding is shared by much
of civil society in the developed world.

The Internetwork, its digital ecosystem, its management, should it be
left unregulated and should we not step into this debate and let the
"Authorities" give the definition and control sets of the global
Internet policy arena? Is the statist control on the Internet the only
discussion on global Internet governance and/or policy-making. I
agree, it does feel like a red-herring and is problematic for
developing countries and yes is a key element of the Development
Agenda on IG and I am happy this discussion is moving towards this.

I hope we do not intermingle Human Rights and the Development Agenda
issues though they are interdependent and effect each other.

I am still disappointed over the comparison of IA and Mexican Food.

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting
> discussion...
>
> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human rights
> here, the underlying issue is of great importance suggesting urgent need for
> global Internet policy making, and developing institutions that are adequate
> to that purpose. The issue also suggests that existing global policy
> institutions do not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with
> this global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more and
> more aspects of our social lives...
>
> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree with
> Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough alternative
> software/ devices and interoperability should be ensured... But the point
> is, who ensures that. Economically less powerful (developing) countries do
> not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital
> companies, and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often
> see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' designs of
> these companies which are almost all based in these countries and bring
> them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining advantage (the framework of
> a new wave of neo-imperialism).
>
> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of
> many states? There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by much of
> civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to it - that
> Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly. At
> least there seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet
> policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has become all
> that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet governance/
> policy-making. (This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is
> problematic for developing countries, and to the collective interests of the
> people of these countries,  (the right to development) which are in great
> danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital playground is being set out,
> without due regulation in global public interest. To get the right global
> governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital issue, in my
> opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in
> IG'.
>
> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to compare
> such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, and will face
> in future to an even greater extent, like the non-availability of 'basic'
> and enabling software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food
> in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain
> persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of
> unprotected markets in developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in
> opposition to raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling
> software/ devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing
> countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, but do
> clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. They proceed
> from very different logics, but have a convergence in the fact that  (1)
> global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest
> , and (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from that
> of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems
> have to be built which take into account these differentials, without being
> formulaic about it. That in my understanding constitutes the development
> agenda in global forums.
>
> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - like
> paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong exclusionary effect of
> people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen and addressed in its real,
> felt forms and not by simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>
> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services to a
> country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are strong issue
> there still), or Skype not being available in a country which would cut its
> residents off many a global tele-meetings (including civil society ones).
> Or, Google, especially after it has all of us doing every second online
> activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a country... this
> surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva.
>
> Parminder
>
>
> Michael Gurstein wrote:
>
> Bien sur!
>
> M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>
>
> My English skills probably need improvement:
> First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but
> participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in
> French, full democratic participation).
> Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's
> fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND
> full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/
> health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem
>
> Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>
>
>

Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From parminder at itforchange.net  Fri Nov 27 09:43:59 2009
From: parminder at itforchange.net (Parminder)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:13:59 +0530
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <E5FD43F7-393B-4C14-A450-60D2E6AA3647@marzouki.info>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC> <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net> <E5FD43F7-393B-4C14-A450-60D2E6AA3647@marzouki.info>
Message-ID: <4B0FE5AF.1090903@itforchange.net>

Meryem


I started my email by saying we may not want to use the terms 
'authoritarianism' or 'human rights' here.

The reference to Mexican food in Geneva came after a round where the 
term 'authoritarian' had been kind of muted out of the discussion, and 
Micheal had made a clear case of '/access to the tools that allow for or 
facilitate the use of the Internet especially when those tools are 
linked into some sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use 
of the Internet should surely fall under that rubric".

/ Speaking of Mexican food in Geneva in this context, and also with new 
examples like paypal being added to the kindle one, is in my view 
insensitive and inconsiderate to the basic set of concerns being expressed.

Also, at least i did not say 'authoritarian nonsense' :) ...

In the global digital space, which is a new global social space, private 
monopolistic controls are a huge issue, perhaps 'the' issue, and it is 
obvious that this is what was being discussed at this stage, along with 
corresponding issue of debilitating exclusions..

I would not consider non-availability of one set of goods or others in  
a country as a comparable example. What is more comparable is what I 
found to some shock when I visited Iran a few years back. Credit cards 
do not work there because the companies are mostly US and they follow a 
kind of embargo. Many people came to meeting I went for without enough 
cash, and they had to use credit cards in black (illegal overseas 
transactions) to get cash. And of course normal business in Iran would 
be hugely affected, locally, as well as globally. it is this kind of 
basic enabling services that need to be treated at a very different 
level than simple goods. And as digital world gets more and more 
enmeshed in our lives, these monopolies, and imperialistic powers behind 
it, is the issue at stake, and begins discussed. Correspondingly, it is 
the deep exclusions and new dependencies that will develop that are of 
concern.

I know you do agree to these concerns generally, but do not agree to 
frame them as a human rights issue. I can agree. But when you say, it 
may not be even be an issue of 'consumer rights' i may not agree. As you 
said in an earlier email, it may not be so much that I want to use a 
particular commercial software as a right, as of open standards and 
inter-interoperability with local options that can be developed. That is 
a certainly a huge consumer right issue.

Best, Parminder

/
/
Meryem Marzouki wrote:
> Parminder,
>
> I fully agree with you that regulation of giant corporates - not only 
> at global but also at regional and national levesl in countries where 
> they operate or have subsidiaries - as you formulate it is an issue of 
> foremost importance and that it is much needed. This issue has in 
> addition to be dealt with in various fora and framework, not only 
> those related to Internet governance, as the "Proposal for a WTO 
> Agreement on the Supply of Knowledge as a Global Public Good" example 
> forwarded by Michael shows.
>
> However, it's not fair to interpret as "inappropriate", 
> "inconsiderate", and "a smack of insensitivity" an - ironical, I admit 
> - comment of the very specific and minor consumer issue as the one 
> brought by Fouad with the example of Amazon Kindle software for PC not 
> being available in Pakistan. By minor, I mean that it's an 
> inconvenience, not a violation of human rights nor an obstacle to 
> development, not even a breach of any consumer rights (consumer rights 
> does not include any "right to consume").
>
> The irony of the comment (comparison with unavailabity of good Mexican 
> food in Geneva) was simply proportional to the exageration in calling 
> "authoritarianism" the fact that a given commercial product is not 
> available in a given country. Words matter, because they express 
> concepts and there unadequate use might lead to the dilution of these 
> concepts and the softening of problems that really matter, by equating 
> them to minor issues. I am sure this was certainly not Fouad's 
> intention, but we should be cautious on this kind of process: they are 
> intentionally used far too often, and it's so easy to get traped.
>
> I lived during the first 25 years of my life in Tunisia, my other 
> country of culture and citizenship and my country of birth, still have 
> family there and visit them regularly. You cannot imagine the number 
> of goods and services that are not available there (not even speaking 
> of affordability), for various reasons: market not wide enough for 
> some goods or services, too expensive or not worth to be imported (the 
> Tunisian Dinar is not quoted on the international currency market) and 
> many other commercial or financial reasons as already suggested in 
> this discussion. Conversely, there are also Tunisian goods and 
> services that I cannot find elsewhere in the world. Too bad, but so what? 
>
> As far as I'm concerned, I keep the word 'authoritarianism' for cases 
> when, e.g. a book cannot be found in Tunisia (or is taken by the 
> police in your luggage when you enter the country) for censorship 
> reasons, not when I cannot find it easily in any Tunisian bookshop 
> simply because no one besides me would be interested in reading (and 
> thus buying) it.
>
> Best,
> Meryem
>
> Le 27 nov. 09 à 13:30, Parminder a écrit :
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting 
>> discussion...
>>
>> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human 
>> rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance suggesting 
>> urgent need for global Internet policy making, and developing 
>> institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The issue also 
>> suggests that existing global policy institutions do not cover a good 
>> deal of new ground that is opened up with this global phenomenon of 
>> Internet becoming an important part of more and more aspects of our 
>> social lives...
>>
>> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree 
>> with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough 
>> alternative software/ devices and interoperability should be 
>> ensured... But the point is, who ensures that. Economically less 
>> powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to regulate 
>> these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies, and so they 
>> have to simply submit. The developed countries often see strong 
>> economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' designs of 
>> these companies which are almost all based in these countries and 
>> bring them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining advantage (the 
>> framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism).
>>
>> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals 
>> that of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, 
>> shared by much of civil society in the developed world - IGC not 
>> being immune to it - that Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should 
>> be left unregulated, mostly. At least there seems to be no urgency to 
>> do anything about global Internet policy arena. The fear of statist 
>> control on the Internet has become all that ever counts in any 
>> discussion on global Internet governance/ policy-making. (This has 
>> become almost a red-herring now.) This is problematic for developing 
>> countries, and to the collective interests of the people of these 
>> countries,  (the right to development) which are in great danger of 
>> losing out as the (non-level) digital playground is being set out, 
>> without due regulation in global public interest. To get the right 
>> global governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital 
>> issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the 
>> 'development agenda in IG'.
>>
>> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to 
>> compare such real problems that developing counties increasingly 
>> face, and will face in future to an even greater extent, like the 
>> non-availability of 'basic' and enabling software like e-readers, 
>> with non-availability  of Mexican food in Geneva... It is even more 
>> inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain persuasion' who in WTO 
>> arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of  unprotected markets 
>> in developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition 
>> to raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling 
>> software/ devices on fair and open standard terms to people of 
>> developing countries. Our organization has joined protests on many 
>> WTO issues, but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under 
>> consideration. They proceed from very different logics, but have a 
>> convergence in the fact that  (1) global  economy (and society)  have 
>> to  regulated  in global public interest , and (2) the interest of 
>> developing countries is often different from that of developed 
>> countries. Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems have 
>> to be built which take into account these differentials, without 
>> being formulaic about it. That in my understanding constitutes the 
>> development agenda in global forums.
>>
>> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - 
>> like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong 
>> exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen 
>> and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by simplistic 
>> comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>>
>> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services 
>> to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are 
>> strong issue there still), or Skype not being available in a country 
>> which would cut its residents off many a global tele-meetings 
>> (including civil society ones). Or, Google, especially after it has 
>> all of us doing every second online activity on its platform, cutting 
>> off its services to a country... this surely isnt about Mexican food 
>> in Geneva.
>>
>> Parminder
>>
>>
>> Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>> Bien sur!
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
>>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>
>>>
>>> My English skills probably need improvement:
>>> First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  
>>> participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  
>>> French, full democratic participation).
>>> Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  
>>> fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  
>>> full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 
>>> health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem
>>>
>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>
>>>   
>>>> But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
>>>> education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
>>>> certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an 
>>>> education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
>>>> [governance] Example
>>>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>
>>>> I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
>>>> the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
>>>> meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>>>>
>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>> Thanks Meryem,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>>>>> formulation...
>>>>> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>>>>> familiarity with
>>>>> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>>>>> Internet as a
>>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
>>>>> me rather
>>>>> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>>>>> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
>>>>> "democracy".
>>>>>
>>>>> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>>>>> Internet as a
>>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
>>>>> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>>>>> allow for or
>>>>> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>>>>> Authoritarianism -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
>>>>> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>>>>> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>>>>> rights). The
>>>>> fact that there exist national, regional, international
>>>>> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
>>>>> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
>>>>> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>>>>> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
>>>>> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
>>>>> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
>>>>> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>>>>> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
>>>>> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
>>>>> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
>>>>> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
>>>>> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
>>>>> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
>>>>> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>>>>> participation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
>>>>> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
>>>>> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
>>>>> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
>>>>> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
>>>>> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
>>>>> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>>>>
>>>>> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>>>>> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>>>>> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>>>>> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
>>>>> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Meryem
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>>>>>> iTunes
>>>>>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>>>>>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>>>>>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>>>>> (PS2, an
>>>>>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>>>>>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>>>>> companies
>>>>>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --c.a.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> McTim wrote:
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>>>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>>>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>>>>>> of discussion
>>>>>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>>>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>>>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>>>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>>>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>>>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>>>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>>>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>>>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>>>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>>>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>>>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>>>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>>>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>>>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>>>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>>>>>> say this!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>           
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>>>>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>>>>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>>>>> ====================================
>>>>>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>>>>> ====================================
>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Fri Nov 27 09:57:45 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:57:45 +0000
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <009e01ca6ed0$d7b00350$871009f0$@com.br>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
 <30E8BCAF0FC845F9BB085056BF008101@GIH.CO.UK> <4B0D0C01.6060301@gmail.com>
 <Vm31g0r4XWDLFA$A@perry.co.uk>
 <ecd95cb50911251100p5926f1fcwea6772bcd1c216a5@mail.gmail.com>
 <0MpdKb4CNYDLFAZ+@perry.co.uk>
 <ecd95cb50911251132w3f415411s800a6a7165aee494@mail.gmail.com>
 <009e01ca6ed0$d7b00350$871009f0$@com.br>
Message-ID: <QQjUtxQpj+DLFA8b@perry.co.uk>

In message <009e01ca6ed0$d7b00350$871009f0$@com.br>, at 17:44:13 on Thu, 
26 Nov 2009, Vanda UOL <vanda at uol.com.br> writes
> I am glad the result was in favor of the continuation of IGF

We are some way from declaring a "Result", I'm afraid. However it's true 
that most of the opinions expressed were in favour of continuation.

>and that the regional meetings with more effective results get more 
>strenght!

Yes, these gain greater prominence year after year. There was even a 
proposal I heard in the corridors that the IGF should go to alternate 
years, with the Regional IGFs held on the other years.
-- 
Roland Perry
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From roland at internetpolicyagency.com  Fri Nov 27 10:03:41 2009
From: roland at internetpolicyagency.com (Roland Perry)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:03:41 +0000
Subject: [governance] What happened with the hubs?
In-Reply-To: <p06240819c735685915a0@[192.168.1.160]>
References: <do7XjzFJ+DDLFAOY@perry.co.uk>
 <2bd2431a0911241230x59109c06k5325b69ddf9ec2a@mail.gmail.com>
 <eFDHoxIrtNDLFAN6@perry.co.uk> <1259135395.3296.379.camel@anriette-laptop>
 <TWc0caNW6PDLFANa@perry.co.uk>
 <77018B6C-7F09-452F-B301-7482FA13373B@graduateinstitute.ch>
 <f7e605ab0911250818n2f4ae20am8e6cfba4fea51e0c@mail.gmail.com>
 <f7e605ab0911270317r452aae12k52a81bd05e36d461@mail.gmail.com>
 <p06240819c735685915a0@[192.168.1.160]>
Message-ID: <2QKd9DSNp+DLFA5G@perry.co.uk>

In message <p06240819c735685915a0@[192.168.1.160]>, at 20:35:04 on Fri, 
27 Nov 2009, Adam Peake <ajp at glocom.ac.jp> writes
>Roland mentioned he thought the quality very high, better that most 
>Internet industry events (paraphrasing...)

I am particularly impressed by the speed with which the transcripts and 
aduio/video (from multiple rooms) has been published.

The remote participation software (and especially things like the 
password) were a bigger barrier to entry for the live transmissions
and chat than one normally experiences, though.
-- 
Roland Perry
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From garth.graham at telus.net  Fri Nov 27 10:06:59 2009
From: garth.graham at telus.net (Garth Graham)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:06:59 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC> <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <2531E342-C6AF-4720-B551-1B141E020D07@telus.net>

On 27-Nov-09, at 4:30 AM, Parminder wrote:
> Economically less powerful (developing) countries do not have the  
> muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital  
> companies, and so they have to simply submit. ........ (the  
> framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism). .......Who then  
> regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of  
> many states? ....... as the (non-level) digital playground is being  
> set out, without due regulation in global public interest. To get  
> the right global governance  institutions and outcomes to address  
> this vital issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally  
> constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'.
> (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global  
> public interest , and
> (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from  
> that of developed countries.
> Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems have to be  
> built which take into account these differentials, ... Exclusion  
> has to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by  
> simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.

"Who then regulates?" Indeed!

There is a way to avoid merely replacing one form of global  
authoritarianism with another. Elinor Ostrom  identifies eight  
"design principles" (perhaps a better word in the context of  
development capacity than "rights?) of stable local "common property  
resource management" (1).  Considering the Internet' social spaces as  
common property resources, a "form" of governance that effectively  
addresses exclusion would need to include:
1.     Clearly defined boundaries (effective exclusion of external  
unentitled parties);
2.     Rules regarding the appropriation and provision of common  
resources are adapted to local conditions;
3.     Collective-choice arrangements allow most resource  
appropriators to participate in the decision-making process;
4.     Effective monitoring by monitors who are part of or  
accountable to the appropriators;
5.     There is a scale of graduated sanctions for resource  
appropriators who violate community rules;
6.     Mechanisms of conflict resolution are cheap and of easy access;
7.     The self-determination of the community is recognized by  
higher-level authorities;
8.     In the case of larger common-pool resources: organization in  
the form of multiple layers of nested enterprises, with small local  
CPRs at the base level.

Reflecting on the application of these principles, it would seem that  
the Internet's capacity to sustain the autonomy of self-organizing  
communities of common interest is anything but chaos.  I am  
comfortable that ISOC's "Internet Ecology" model of Internet  
Governance is beginning to take these principles into account.

[1] Ostrom, Elinor: Governing the Commons: The Evolution of  
Institutions for Collective Action. Cambridge University Press. 1990.  
p.90. and Understanding Institutional Diversity. Princeton, Princeton  
University Press. 2005. p.259



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From meryem at marzouki.info  Fri Nov 27 11:03:09 2009
From: meryem at marzouki.info (Meryem Marzouki)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:03:09 +0100
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4B0FE5AF.1090903@itforchange.net>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC> <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net> <E5FD43F7-393B-4C14-A450-60D2E6AA3647@marzouki.info> <4B0FE5AF.1090903@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <B3352C76-CA0C-4D0A-9760-9D80C20D23F4@marzouki.info>

I still don't find this qualification of the comparison neither fair,  
nor relevant. There are many confusions in this discussion.
Your example of Iran and non authorized use of US credit cards there  
is another confusion: this is, most probably, a consequence of the  
american embargo against Iran (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Sanctions_against_Iran#Ahmadinejad_government), which is another,  
different, issue.

Speaking of money transfers and electronic transactions, FYI, in many  
countries where there is not even such embargo - and I can again  
refer to Tunisia here - people cannot even buy anything because their  
currency is not quoted on the international market and because there  
are restrictions on currency exchanges, due to national economic and  
financial regulation and policy, itself fully understandable in order  
to keep the country balance of payment/treasury (or whatever this is  
called in English) manageable. How would you call this? A human  
rights issue? A consumer issue? Anything else?

And regarding Fouad's last email, I still don't find it neither fair,  
nor relevant, to transform a comparison between Amazon Kindle for PC  
and Mexican Food into a comparison between IA and Mexican Food,  
whatever "IA" means (if it is Internet Access, then IA is not subject  
to Amazon Kindle for PC availability, if it is "Internet  
Authoritarianism", then I still don't know what this could mean).  
Finally, I've never been impressed by the attempts to disqualify a  
given point of view by a (false and irrelevant, anyway) general  
reference to "members from the developed world", just like if your  
country of residence at a given time in your life, your citizenship  
or whatever, would determine your way of thinking.

Meryem

Le 27 nov. 09 à 15:43, Parminder a écrit :

> Meryem
>
>
> I started my email by saying we may not want to use the terms  
> 'authoritarianism' or 'human rights' here.
>
> The reference to Mexican food in Geneva came after a round where  
> the term 'authoritarian' had been kind of muted out of the  
> discussion, and Micheal had made a clear case of 'access to the  
> tools that allow for or facilitate the use of the Internet  
> especially when those tools are linked into some sort of  
> monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet  
> should surely fall under that rubric".
>
>  Speaking of Mexican food in Geneva in this context, and also with  
> new examples like paypal being added to the kindle one, is in my  
> view insensitive and inconsiderate to the basic set of concerns  
> being expressed.
>
> Also, at least i did not say 'authoritarian nonsense' :) ...
>
> In the global digital space, which is a new global social space,  
> private monopolistic controls are a huge issue, perhaps 'the'  
> issue, and it is obvious that this is what was being discussed at  
> this stage, along with corresponding issue of debilitating  
> exclusions..
>
> I would not consider non-availability of one set of goods or others  
> in  a country as a comparable example. What is more comparable is  
> what I found to some shock when I visited Iran a few years back.  
> Credit cards do not work there because the companies are mostly US  
> and they follow a kind of embargo. Many people came to meeting I  
> went for without enough cash, and they had to use credit cards in  
> black (illegal overseas transactions) to get cash. And of course  
> normal business in Iran would be hugely affected, locally, as well  
> as globally. it is this kind of basic enabling services that need  
> to be treated at a very different level than simple goods. And as  
> digital world gets more and more enmeshed in our lives, these  
> monopolies, and imperialistic powers behind it, is the issue at  
> stake, and begins discussed. Correspondingly, it is the deep  
> exclusions and new dependencies that will develop that are of concern.
>
> I know you do agree to these concerns generally, but do not agree  
> to frame them as a human rights issue. I can agree. But when you  
> say, it may not be even be an issue of 'consumer rights' i may not  
> agree. As you said in an earlier email, it may not be so much that  
> I want to use a particular commercial software as a right, as of  
> open standards and inter-interoperability with local options that  
> can be developed. That is a certainly a huge consumer right issue.
>
> Best, Parminder
>
>
>
> Meryem Marzouki wrote:
>>
>> Parminder,
>>
>> I fully agree with you that regulation of giant corporates - not  
>> only at global but also at regional and national levesl in  
>> countries where they operate or have subsidiaries - as you  
>> formulate it is an issue of foremost importance and that it is  
>> much needed. This issue has in addition to be dealt with in  
>> various fora and framework, not only those related to Internet  
>> governance, as the "Proposal for a WTO Agreement on the Supply of  
>> Knowledge as a Global Public Good" example forwarded by Michael  
>> shows.
>>
>> However, it's not fair to interpret as "inappropriate",  
>> "inconsiderate", and "a smack of insensitivity" an - ironical, I  
>> admit - comment of the very specific and minor consumer issue as  
>> the one brought by Fouad with the example of Amazon Kindle  
>> software for PC not being available in Pakistan. By minor, I mean  
>> that it's an inconvenience, not a violation of human rights nor an  
>> obstacle to development, not even a breach of any consumer rights  
>> (consumer rights does not include any "right to consume").
>>
>> The irony of the comment (comparison with unavailabity of good  
>> Mexican food in Geneva) was simply proportional to the exageration  
>> in calling "authoritarianism" the fact that a given commercial  
>> product is not available in a given country. Words matter, because  
>> they express concepts and there unadequate use might lead to the  
>> dilution of these concepts and the softening of problems that  
>> really matter, by equating them to minor issues. I am sure this  
>> was certainly not Fouad's intention, but we should be cautious on  
>> this kind of process: they are intentionally used far too often,  
>> and it's so easy to get traped.
>>
>> I lived during the first 25 years of my life in Tunisia, my other  
>> country of culture and citizenship and my country of birth, still  
>> have family there and visit them regularly. You cannot imagine the  
>> number of goods and services that are not available there (not  
>> even speaking of affordability), for various reasons: market not  
>> wide enough for some goods or services, too expensive or not worth  
>> to be imported (the Tunisian Dinar is not quoted on the  
>> international currency market) and many other commercial or  
>> financial reasons as already suggested in this discussion.  
>> Conversely, there are also Tunisian goods and services that I  
>> cannot find elsewhere in the world. Too bad, but so what?
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned, I keep the word 'authoritarianism' for  
>> cases when, e.g. a book cannot be found in Tunisia (or is taken by  
>> the police in your luggage when you enter the country) for  
>> censorship reasons, not when I cannot find it easily in any  
>> Tunisian bookshop simply because no one besides me would be  
>> interested in reading (and thus buying) it.
>>
>> Best,
>> Meryem
>>
>> Le 27 nov. 09 à 13:30, Parminder a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an  
>>> interesting discussion...
>>>
>>> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and  
>>> human rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance  
>>> suggesting urgent need for global Internet policy making, and  
>>> developing institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The  
>>> issue also suggests that existing global policy institutions do  
>>> not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with this  
>>> global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more  
>>> and more aspects of our social lives...
>>>
>>> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i  
>>> agree with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be  
>>> enough alternative software/ devices and interoperability should  
>>> be ensured... But the point is, who ensures that. Economically  
>>> less powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to  
>>> regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies,  
>>> and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often  
>>> see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist'  
>>> designs of these companies which are almost all based in these  
>>> countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and  
>>> sustaining advantage (the framework of a new wave of neo- 
>>> imperialism).
>>>
>>> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals  
>>> that of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong  
>>> tendency, shared by much of civil society in the developed world  
>>> - IGC not being immune to it - that Internet (and its digital  
>>> ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly. At least there  
>>> seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet  
>>> policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has  
>>> become all that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet  
>>> governance/ policy-making. (This has become almost a red-herring  
>>> now.) This is problematic for developing countries, and to the  
>>> collective interests of the people of these countries,  (the  
>>> right to development) which are in great danger of losing out as  
>>> the (non-level) digital playground is being set out, without due  
>>> regulation in global public interest. To get the right global  
>>> governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital  
>>> issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the  
>>> 'development agenda in IG'.
>>>
>>> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate,  
>>> to compare such real problems that developing counties  
>>> increasingly face, and will face in future to an even greater  
>>> extent, like the non-availability of 'basic' and enabling  
>>> software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food  
>>> in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of  
>>> 'certain persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain  
>>> multinational  invasion of  unprotected markets in developing  
>>> countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to raising  
>>> the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/  
>>> devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing  
>>> countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO  
>>> issues, but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under  
>>> consideration. They proceed from very different logics, but have  
>>> a convergence in the fact that  (1) global  economy (and  
>>> society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest , and (2)  
>>> the interest of developing countries is often different from that  
>>> of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and  
>>> governance systems have to be built which take into account these  
>>> differentials, without being formulaic about it. That in my  
>>> understanding constitutes the development agenda in global forums.
>>>
>>> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been  
>>> given - like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very  
>>> strong exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has  
>>> to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by  
>>> simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>>>
>>> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related  
>>> services to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing,  
>>> but there are strong issue there still), or Skype not being  
>>> available in a country which would cut its residents off many a  
>>> global tele-meetings (including civil society ones). Or, Google,  
>>> especially after it has all of us doing every second online  
>>> activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a  
>>> country... this surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva.
>>>
>>> Parminder
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bien sur!
>>>>
>>>> M
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:  
>>>> [governance] Example
>>>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My English skills probably need improvement:
>>>> First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but
>>>> participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in
>>>> French, full democratic participation).
>>>> Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's
>>>> fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND
>>>> full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/
>>>> health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they?  
>>>> Meryem
>>>>
>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
>>>>> education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less  
>>>>> significant
>>>>> certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an
>>>>> education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
>>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
>>>>> [governance] Example
>>>>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental  
>>>>> rights" in
>>>>> the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
>>>>> meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Meryem,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>>>>>> formulation...
>>>>>> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>>>>>> familiarity with
>>>>>> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>>>>>> Internet as a
>>>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy"  
>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>> me rather
>>>>>> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>>>>>> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your  
>>>>>> terminology of
>>>>>> "democracy".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>>>>>> Internet as a
>>>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and  
>>>>>> one's
>>>>>> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>>>>>> allow for or
>>>>>> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>>>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>>>>>> Authoritarianism -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this  
>>>>>> discussion, it's
>>>>>> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>>>>>> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>>>>>> rights). The
>>>>>> fact that there exist national, regional, international
>>>>>> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and  
>>>>>> services
>>>>>> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental  
>>>>>> right!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the  
>>>>>> Internet
>>>>>> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>>>>>> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate  
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked  
>>>>>> into some
>>>>>> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the  
>>>>>> Internet
>>>>>> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>>>>>> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement  
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right  
>>>>>> requires
>>>>>> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate  
>>>>>> the use
>>>>>> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to  
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there  
>>>>>> should be
>>>>>> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be  
>>>>>> accessible,
>>>>>> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that  
>>>>>> Amazon's
>>>>>> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though  
>>>>>> it might
>>>>>> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't  
>>>>>> read a
>>>>>> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which  
>>>>>> is not
>>>>>> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report  
>>>>>> (http://
>>>>>> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my  
>>>>>> browser, on
>>>>>> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>>>>>> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>>>>>> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>>>>>> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill  
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Meryem
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how  
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> iTunes
>>>>>>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot  
>>>>>>> purchase
>>>>>>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some  
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>>>>>> (PS2, an
>>>>>>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the  
>>>>>>> PS3?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being  
>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>>>>>> companies
>>>>>>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --c.a.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> McTim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>>>>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and  
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>>>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the  
>>>>>>>>>> domain
>>>>>>>>>> of discussion
>>>>>>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>>>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>>>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy  
>>>>>>>>> logic, and
>>>>>>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a  
>>>>>>>>> developing
>>>>>>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry  
>>>>>>>>> this as
>>>>>>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>>>>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>>>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>>>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>>>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>>>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>>>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>>>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who  
>>>>>>>>> buys
>>>>>>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this  
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>>>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not  
>>>>>>>>> serve
>>>>>>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand,  
>>>>>>>>> distribution,
>>>>>>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>>>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>>>>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't  
>>>>>>>>> matter.
>>>>>>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want,  
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>>>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>>>>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I  
>>>>>>>>> can't see
>>>>>>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>>>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>>>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently  
>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>>>>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>>>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>>>>>>> say this!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>>>>>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>>>>>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>>>>>> ====================================
>>>>>>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>>>>>> ====================================
>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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From william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch  Fri Nov 27 11:45:24 2009
From: william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch (William Drake)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:45:24 +0100
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <B3352C76-CA0C-4D0A-9760-9D80C20D23F4@marzouki.info>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC> <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net> <E5FD43F7-393B-4C14-A450-60D2E6AA3647@marzouki.info> <4B0FE5AF.1090903@itforchange.net> <B3352C76-CA0C-4D0A-9760-9D80C20D23F4@marzouki.info>
Message-ID: <38FDC257-5D87-4F00-BB16-117EB24AFBB1@graduateinstitute.ch>

Not that it matters in this particular  rhetorical space but of course  
there was no "comparison" drawn between access to the net and access  
to Mexican food. There was rather a point being made about the general  
"principle" that companies should be obligated to sell a (any)  
consumer product in a given foreign market and if they don't we can  
call them authoritarian.  To note that this makes no sense in no way  
implies a lack of concern about broadening and democratizing access in  
developing countries.

Bill

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 27, 2009, at 17:03, Meryem Marzouki <meryem at marzouki.info> wrote:

> I still don't find this qualification of the comparison neither  
> fair, nor relevant. There are many confusions in this discussion.
> Your example of Iran and non authorized use of US credit cards there  
> is another confusion: this is, most probably, a consequence of the  
> american embargo against Iran (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iran#Ahmadinejad_government 
> ), which is another, different, issue.
>
> Speaking of money transfers and electronic transactions, FYI, in  
> many countries where there is not even such embargo - and I can  
> again refer to Tunisia here - people cannot even buy anything  
> because their currency is not quoted on the international market and  
> because there are restrictions on currency exchanges, due to  
> national economic and financial regulation and policy, itself fully  
> understandable in order to keep the country balance of payment/ 
> treasury (or whatever this is called in English) manageable. How  
> would you call this? A human rights issue? A consumer issue?  
> Anything else?
>
> And regarding Fouad's last email, I still don't find it neither  
> fair, nor relevant, to transform a comparison between Amazon Kindle  
> for PC and Mexican Food into a comparison between IA and Mexican  
> Food, whatever "IA" means (if it is Internet Access, then IA is not  
> subject to Amazon Kindle for PC availability, if it is "Internet  
> Authoritarianism", then I still don't know what this could mean).  
> Finally, I've never been impressed by the attempts to disqualify a  
> given point of view by a (false and irrelevant, anyway) general  
> reference to "members from the developed world", just like if your  
> country of residence at a given time in your life, your citizenship  
> or whatever, would determine your way of thinking.
>
> Meryem
>
> Le 27 nov. 09 à 15:43, Parminder a écrit :
>
>> Meryem
>>
>>
>> I started my email by saying we may not want to use the terms  
>> 'authoritarianism' or 'human rights' here.
>>
>> The reference to Mexican food in Geneva came after a round where  
>> the term 'authoritarian' had been kind of muted out of the  
>> discussion, and Micheal had made a clear case of 'access to the  
>> tools that allow for or facilitate the use of the Internet  
>> especially when those tools are linked into some sort of  
>> monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet  
>> should surely fall under that rubric".
>>
>>  Speaking of Mexican food in Geneva in this context, and also with  
>> new examples like paypal being added to the kindle one, is in my  
>> view insensitive and inconsiderate to the basic set of concerns  
>> being expressed.
>>
>> Also, at least i did not say 'authoritarian nonsense' :) ...
>>
>> In the global digital space, which is a new global social space,  
>> private monopolistic controls are a huge issue, perhaps 'the'  
>> issue, and it is obvious that this is what was being discussed at  
>> this stage, along with corresponding issue of debilitating  
>> exclusions..
>>
>> I would not consider non-availability of one set of goods or others  
>> in  a country as a comparable example. What is more comparable is  
>> what I found to some shock when I visited Iran a few years back.  
>> Credit cards do not work there because the companies are mostly US  
>> and they follow a kind of embargo. Many people came to meeting I  
>> went for without enough cash, and they had to use credit cards in  
>> black (illegal overseas transactions) to get cash. And of course  
>> normal business in Iran would be hugely affected, locally, as well  
>> as globally. it is this kind of basic enabling services that need  
>> to be treated at a very different level than simple goods. And as  
>> digital world gets more and more enmeshed in our lives, these  
>> monopolies, and imperialistic powers behind it, is the issue at  
>> stake, and begins discussed. Correspondingly, it is the deep  
>> exclusions and new dependencies that will develop that are of  
>> concern.
>>
>> I know you do agree to these concerns generally, but do not agree  
>> to frame them as a human rights issue. I can agree. But when you  
>> say, it may not be even be an issue of 'consumer rights' i may not  
>> agree. As you said in an earlier email, it may not be so much that  
>> I want to use a particular commercial software as a right, as of  
>> open standards and inter-interoperability with local options that  
>> can be developed. That is a certainly a huge consumer right issue.
>>
>> Best, Parminder
>>
>>
>>
>> Meryem Marzouki wrote:
>>>
>>> Parminder,
>>>
>>> I fully agree with you that regulation of giant corporates - not  
>>> only at global but also at regional and national levesl in  
>>> countries where they operate or have subsidiaries - as you  
>>> formulate it is an issue of foremost importance and that it is  
>>> much needed. This issue has in addition to be dealt with in  
>>> various fora and framework, not only those related to Internet  
>>> governance, as the "Proposal for a WTO Agreement on the Supply of  
>>> Knowledge as a Global Public Good" example forwarded by Michael  
>>> shows.
>>>
>>> However, it's not fair to interpret as "inappropriate",  
>>> "inconsiderate", and "a smack of insensitivity" an - ironical, I  
>>> admit - comment of the very specific and minor consumer issue as  
>>> the one brought by Fouad with the example of Amazon Kindle  
>>> software for PC not being available in Pakistan. By minor, I mean  
>>> that it's an inconvenience, not a violation of human rights nor an  
>>> obstacle to development, not even a breach of any consumer rights  
>>> (consumer rights does not include any "right to consume").
>>>
>>> The irony of the comment (comparison with unavailabity of good  
>>> Mexican food in Geneva) was simply proportional to the exageration  
>>> in calling "authoritarianism" the fact that a given commercial  
>>> product is not available in a given country. Words matter, because  
>>> they express concepts and there unadequate use might lead to the  
>>> dilution of these concepts and the softening of problems that  
>>> really matter, by equating them to minor issues. I am sure this  
>>> was certainly not Fouad's intention, but we should be cautious on  
>>> this kind of process: they are intentionally used far too often,  
>>> and it's so easy to get traped.
>>>
>>> I lived during the first 25 years of my life in Tunisia, my other  
>>> country of culture and citizenship and my country of birth, still  
>>> have family there and visit them regularly. You cannot imagine the  
>>> number of goods and services that are not available there (not  
>>> even speaking of affordability), for various reasons: market not  
>>> wide enough for some goods or services, too expensive or not worth  
>>> to be imported (the Tunisian Dinar is not quoted on the  
>>> international currency market) and many other commercial or  
>>> financial reasons as already suggested in this discussion.  
>>> Conversely, there are also Tunisian goods and services that I  
>>> cannot find elsewhere in the world. Too bad, but so what?
>>>
>>> As far as I'm concerned, I keep the word 'authoritarianism' for  
>>> cases when, e.g. a book cannot be found in Tunisia (or is taken by  
>>> the police in your luggage when you enter the country) for  
>>> censorship reasons, not when I cannot find it easily in any  
>>> Tunisian bookshop simply because no one besides me would be  
>>> interested in reading (and thus buying) it.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Meryem
>>>
>>> Le 27 nov. 09 à 13:30, Parminder a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Hi All
>>>>
>>>> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an  
>>>> interesting discussion...
>>>>
>>>> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and  
>>>> human rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance  
>>>> suggesting urgent need for global Internet policy making, and  
>>>> developing institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The  
>>>> issue also suggests that existing global policy institutions do  
>>>> not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with this  
>>>> global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more  
>>>> and more aspects of our social lives...
>>>>
>>>> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i  
>>>> agree with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be  
>>>> enough alternative software/ devices and interoperability should  
>>>> be ensured... But the point is, who ensures that. Economically  
>>>> less powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to  
>>>> regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies,  
>>>> and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often  
>>>> see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist'  
>>>> designs of these companies which are almost all based in these  
>>>> countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and  
>>>> sustaining advantage (the framework of a new wave of neo- 
>>>> imperialism).
>>>>
>>>> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals  
>>>> that of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong  
>>>> tendency, shared by much of civil society in the developed world  
>>>> - IGC not being immune to it - that Internet (and its digital  
>>>> ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly. At least there  
>>>> seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet  
>>>> policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has  
>>>> become all that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet  
>>>> governance/ policy-making. (This has become almost a red-herring  
>>>> now.) This is problematic for developing countries, and to the  
>>>> collective interests of the people of these countries,  (the  
>>>> right to development) which are in great danger of losing out as  
>>>> the (non-level) digital playground is being set out, without due  
>>>> regulation in global public interest. To get the right global  
>>>> governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital  
>>>> issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the  
>>>> 'development agenda in IG'.
>>>>
>>>> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate,  
>>>> to compare such real problems that developing counties  
>>>> increasingly face, and will face in future to an even greater  
>>>> extent, like the non-availability of 'basic' and enabling  
>>>> software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food  
>>>> in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of  
>>>> 'certain persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain  
>>>> multinational  invasion of  unprotected markets in developing  
>>>> countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to raising  
>>>> the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/  
>>>> devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing  
>>>> countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO  
>>>> issues, but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under  
>>>> consideration. They proceed from very different logics, but have  
>>>> a convergence in the fact that  (1) global  economy (and  
>>>> society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest , and (2)  
>>>> the interest of developing countries is often different from that  
>>>> of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and  
>>>> governance systems have to be built which take into account these  
>>>> differentials, without being formulaic about it. That in my  
>>>> understanding constitutes the development agenda in global forums.
>>>>
>>>> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been  
>>>> given - like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very  
>>>> strong exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has  
>>>> to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by  
>>>> simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>>>>
>>>> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related  
>>>> services to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing,  
>>>> but there are strong issue there still), or Skype not being  
>>>> available in a country which would cut its residents off many a  
>>>> global tele-meetings (including civil society ones). Or, Google,  
>>>> especially after it has all of us doing every second online  
>>>> activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a  
>>>> country... this surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva.
>>>>
>>>> Parminder
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Bien sur!
>>>>>
>>>>> M
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
>>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:  
>>>>> [governance] Example
>>>>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My English skills probably need improvement:
>>>>> First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but
>>>>> participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in
>>>>> French, full democratic participation).
>>>>> Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's
>>>>> fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND
>>>>> full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/
>>>>> health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they?  
>>>>> Meryem
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
>>>>>> education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less  
>>>>>> significant
>>>>>> certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an
>>>>>> education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
>>>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
>>>>>> [governance] Example
>>>>>> of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental  
>>>>>> rights" in
>>>>>> the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of  
>>>>>> democracy" I
>>>>>> meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Meryem,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>>>>>>> formulation...
>>>>>>> My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>>>>>>> familiarity with
>>>>>>> the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>>>>>>> Internet as a
>>>>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy"  
>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>> me rather
>>>>>>> too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>>>>>>> "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your  
>>>>>>> terminology of
>>>>>>> "democracy".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>>>>>>> Internet as a
>>>>>>> necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and  
>>>>>>> one's
>>>>>>> fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>>>>>>> allow for or
>>>>>>> facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>>>>>>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>>>>>>> Authoritarianism -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this  
>>>>>>> discussion, it's
>>>>>>> strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>>>>>>> speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>>>>>>> rights). The
>>>>>>> fact that there exist national, regional, international
>>>>>>> legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and  
>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>> providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental  
>>>>>>> right!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the  
>>>>>>> Internet
>>>>>>> is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>>>>>>> Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate  
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked  
>>>>>>> into some
>>>>>>> sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the  
>>>>>>> Internet
>>>>>>> should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>>>>>>> differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement  
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right  
>>>>>>> requires
>>>>>>> that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate  
>>>>>>> the use
>>>>>>> of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to  
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>> tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there  
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>> no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be  
>>>>>>> accessible,
>>>>>>> allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that  
>>>>>>> Amazon's
>>>>>>> Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though  
>>>>>>> it might
>>>>>>> be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't  
>>>>>>> read a
>>>>>>> given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which  
>>>>>>> is not
>>>>>>> the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report  
>>>>>>> (http://
>>>>>>> report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my  
>>>>>>> browser, on
>>>>>>> a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>>>>>>> personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>>>>>>> which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>>>>>>> getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill  
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Meryem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how  
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> iTunes
>>>>>>>> or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot  
>>>>>>>> purchase
>>>>>>>> media without having a credit card account in the USA or some  
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>>>>>>> (PS2, an
>>>>>>>> obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the  
>>>>>>>> PS3?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being  
>>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>>> consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>>>>>>> companies
>>>>>>>> create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --c.a.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> McTim wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>>>>>>> <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's a difference between disagreeing with something and  
>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>> inappropriate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>>>>>>> "Right to the
>>>>>>>>>>> Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the  
>>>>>>>>>>> domain
>>>>>>>>>>> of discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> around "Rights"...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>>>>>>> company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>>>>>>> "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy  
>>>>>>>>>> logic, and
>>>>>>>>>> not the computer science kind.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a  
>>>>>>>>>> developing
>>>>>>>>>> country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry  
>>>>>>>>>> this as
>>>>>>>>>> imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market  
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>>>>>>> that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>>>>>>> agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>>>>>>> authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>>>>>>> demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>>>>>>> everything everywhere else.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who  
>>>>>>>>>> buys
>>>>>>>>>> or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this  
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>>>>>>> Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not  
>>>>>>>>>> serve
>>>>>>>>>> a given market---costs, level of effective demand,  
>>>>>>>>>> distribution,
>>>>>>>>>> local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>>>>>>> unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes),  
>>>>>>>>>> etc
>>>>>>>>>> etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't  
>>>>>>>>>> matter.
>>>>>>>>>> All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want,  
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>>>>>>> couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I  
>>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>> watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I  
>>>>>>>>>> can't see
>>>>>>>>>> most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>>>>>>> theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>>>>>>> authoritarianism?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently  
>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>> in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find  
>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>> why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>>>>>>> change?  Might be more productive than misplaced  
>>>>>>>>>> sloganeering.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time  
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> say this!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Carlos A. Afonso
>>>>>>>> CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>>>>>>> Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>>>>>>> ====================================
>>>>>>>> new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>>>>>>> ====================================
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From gurstein at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 11:52:37 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 08:52:37 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4B0FE5AF.1090903@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <4BA221AE17C046ECB7C5AAC212A585F9@userPC>

I'ld like to toss a few somewhat disconnected but related
propositions/statements into this very fruitful discussion.
 
1. times (and technologies) change. If certain principles (rights?) are
meant to be universal and unchangeable but don't seem to connect very well
with changed times/technologies then either the principles need to change
(but they are unchangeable) or some alternative route needs to be found to
respond to those changes either by facilitating a reinterpretation/extension
of those principles or by finding a substitute mechanism that achieves a
similar end.
 
2. the IGC is meant to be civil societies voice in Internet Governance
issues. The question here is whether there are new issues arising which need
a Civil Society position and a Civil Society voice in Internet Governance
fora.  
 
3. the Internet is by its very nature global and in many aspects does not
allow for national regulation/policy making/control etc.etc. Either those
aspects will remain unrgulated/un-"policied"/uncontrolled or mechanisms need
to be developed at the global level to respond to these
 
4. for the US Government movies (and cultural products in general) are seen
as consumer products equivalent to bars of soap or chinese food in Geneva
i.e. to be subject only to consumer protection/regulation (and to be
governed under the jurisdiction of the WTO).  For many other countries
(Canada being a notable leader in this for very significant and applicable
reasons which I could explain if asked) movies (and cultural products in
general) are seen as a fundamental element of national culture to be
protected as such under the UNDHR with a special global Convention on
Cultural Diversity (through UNESCO) created specifically to ensure those and
directly related issues.
 
I'm wondering if what we are discussing here might not be the beginnings of
such a necessary global mechanism (there are a range of these of various
strengths/applicabliity) and is it not incumbent on we as the IGC to be
taking some leadership in this area?
 
Mike
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Parminder [mailto:parminder at itforchange.net] 
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:44 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Meryem Marzouki
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example


Meryem


I started my email by saying we may not want to use the terms
'authoritarianism' or 'human rights' here.

The reference to Mexican food in Geneva came after a round where the term
'authoritarian' had been kind of muted out of the discussion, and Micheal
had made a clear case of 'access to the tools that allow for or facilitate
the use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet should
surely fall under that rubric".

 Speaking of Mexican food in Geneva in this context, and also with new
examples like paypal being added to the kindle one, is in my view
insensitive and inconsiderate to the basic set of concerns being expressed. 

Also, at least i did not say 'authoritarian nonsense' :) ...

In the global digital space, which is a new global social space, private
monopolistic controls are a huge issue, perhaps 'the' issue, and it is
obvious that this is what was being discussed at this stage, along with
corresponding issue of debilitating exclusions.. 

I would not consider non-availability of one set of goods or others in  a
country as a comparable example. What is more comparable is what I found to
some shock when I visited Iran a few years back. Credit cards do not work
there because the companies are mostly US and they follow a kind of embargo.
Many people came to meeting I went for without enough cash, and they had to
use credit cards in black (illegal overseas transactions) to get cash. And
of course normal business in Iran would be hugely affected, locally, as well
as globally. it is this kind of basic enabling services that need to be
treated at a very different level than simple goods. And as digital world
gets more and more enmeshed in our lives, these monopolies, and
imperialistic powers behind it, is the issue at stake, and begins discussed.
Correspondingly, it is the deep exclusions and new dependencies that will
develop that are of concern.

I know you do agree to these concerns generally, but do not agree to frame
them as a human rights issue. I can agree. But when you say, it may not be
even be an issue of 'consumer rights' i may not agree. As you said in an
earlier email, it may not be so much that I want to use a particular
commercial software as a right, as of open standards and
inter-interoperability with local options that can be developed. That is a
certainly a huge consumer right issue. 

Best, Parminder 



Meryem Marzouki wrote: 

Parminder, 

I fully agree with you that regulation of giant corporates - not only at
global but also at regional and national levesl in countries where they
operate or have subsidiaries - as you formulate it is an issue of foremost
importance and that it is much needed. This issue has in addition to be
dealt with in various fora and framework, not only those related to Internet
governance, as the "Proposal for a WTO Agreement on the Supply of Knowledge
as a Global Public Good" example forwarded by Michael shows.

However, it's not fair to interpret as "inappropriate", "inconsiderate", and
"a smack of insensitivity" an - ironical, I admit - comment of the very
specific and minor consumer issue as the one brought by Fouad with the
example of Amazon Kindle software for PC not being available in Pakistan. By
minor, I mean that it's an inconvenience, not a violation of human rights
nor an obstacle to development, not even a breach of any consumer rights
(consumer rights does not include any "right to consume").

The irony of the comment (comparison with unavailabity of good Mexican food
in Geneva) was simply proportional to the exageration in calling
"authoritarianism" the fact that a given commercial product is not available
in a given country. Words matter, because they express concepts and there
unadequate use might lead to the dilution of these concepts and the
softening of problems that really matter, by equating them to minor issues.
I am sure this was certainly not Fouad's intention, but we should be
cautious on this kind of process: they are intentionally used far too often,
and it's so easy to get traped.

I lived during the first 25 years of my life in Tunisia, my other country of
culture and citizenship and my country of birth, still have family there and
visit them regularly. You cannot imagine the number of goods and services
that are not available there (not even speaking of affordability), for
various reasons: market not wide enough for some goods or services, too
expensive or not worth to be imported (the Tunisian Dinar is not quoted on
the international currency market) and many other commercial or financial
reasons as already suggested in this discussion. Conversely, there are also
Tunisian goods and services that I cannot find elsewhere in the world. Too
bad, but so what? 

As far as I'm concerned, I keep the word 'authoritarianism' for cases when,
e.g. a book cannot be found in Tunisia (or is taken by the police in your
luggage when you enter the country) for censorship reasons, not when I
cannot find it easily in any Tunisian bookshop simply because no one besides
me would be interested in reading (and thus buying) it.

Best,
Meryem

Le 27 nov. 09 à 13:30, Parminder a écrit :


Hi All

Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting
discussion...

Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human rights
here, the underlying issue is of great importance suggesting urgent need for
global Internet policy making, and developing institutions that are adequate
to that purpose. The issue also suggests that existing global policy
institutions do not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with
this global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more and
more aspects of our social lives...

It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree with
Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough alternative
software/ devices and interoperability should be ensured... But the point
is, who ensures that. Economically less powerful (developing) countries do
not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital
companies, and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often
see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' designs of
these companies which are almost all based in these countries and bring them
a lot of economic benefits and sustaining advantage (the framework of a new
wave of neo-imperialism). 

Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of
many states? There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by much of
civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to it - that
Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly. At
least there seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet
policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has become all
that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet governance/
policy-making. (This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is
problematic for developing countries, and to the collective interests of the
people of these countries,  (the right to development) which are in great
danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital playground is being set out,
without due regulation in global public interest. To get the right global
governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital issue, in my
opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in
IG'. 

I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to compare
such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, and will face
in future to an even greater extent, like the non-availability of 'basic'
and enabling software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food
in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain
persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of
unprotected markets in developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in
opposition to raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling
software/ devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing
countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, but do
clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. They proceed
from very different logics, but have a convergence in the fact that  (1)
global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest
, and (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from that
of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems
have to be built which take into account these differentials, without being
formulaic about it. That in my understanding constitutes the development
agenda in global forums. 

Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - like
paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong exclusionary effect of
people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen and addressed in its real,
felt forms and not by simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity. 

Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services to a
country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are strong issue
there still), or Skype not being available in a country which would cut its
residents off many a global tele-meetings (including civil society ones).
Or, Google, especially after it has all of us doing every second online
activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a country... this
surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva. 

Parminder 


Michael Gurstein wrote: 

Bien sur!



M



-----Original Message-----

From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM

To: governance at lists.cpsr.org

Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example

of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -





My English skills probably need improvement:

First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  

participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  

French, full democratic participation).

Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  

fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  

full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 

health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem



Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :



  

But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.

education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant

certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an 

education/health/development, or have I missed something.



Mike



-----Original Message-----

From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM

To: governance at lists.cpsr.org

Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:

[governance] Example

of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -





Hi Mike,



I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in

the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I

meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.



Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :



    

Thanks Meryem,



I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial

formulation...

My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of

familiarity with

the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the

Internet as a

necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to

me rather

too narrow in that one could add/substitute

"development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of

"democracy".



Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the

Internet as a

necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's

fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that

allow for or

facilitate the use of the Internet."



Mike



From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM

To: governance at lists.cpsr.org

Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet

Authoritarianism -





Hi all,



I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's

strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -

speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental

rights). The

fact that there exist national, regional, international

legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services

providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!



Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet

is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information

Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the

use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some

sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet

should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it

differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for

the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires

that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use

of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access

tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be

no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,

allowing access to and production of information as well as full

participation.



Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's

Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might

be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a

given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not

the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://

report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on

a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.



Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a

personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product

which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in

getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would

qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))



Best,

Meryem



Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :



      

Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about

iTunes

or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase

media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other

developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2

(PS2, an

obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?



I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to

consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big

companies

create to make us think we have to have it.



--c.a.



McTim wrote:

        

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake

 <mailto:william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch>
<william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:

          

Hi Michael,



On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:



            

I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not

appropriate.

              

There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being

inappropriate.

            

The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a

"Right to the

Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain

of discussion

around "Rights"...

              

Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any

company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be

"authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and

not the computer science kind.



It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing

country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as

imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we

can also call them names normally associated with governments

that brutalize their populations to retain political power?

Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO

agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting

authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is

demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell

everything everywhere else.



Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys

or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would

apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.

Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve

a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,

local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/

unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc

etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.

All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and

if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.



I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I

couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't

watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see

most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie

theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of

authoritarianism?



I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available

in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out

why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage

change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.

            

+1



I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to

say this!



BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?





          

--



Carlos A. Afonso

CGI.br (www.cgi.br)

Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)

====================================

new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca

====================================

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From fouadbajwa at gmail.com  Fri Nov 27 23:50:04 2009
From: fouadbajwa at gmail.com (Fouad Bajwa)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:50:04 +0500
Subject: [governance] Fwd: [igcbp-talk] Who owns science?
In-Reply-To: <f7e605ab0911271043s4102eedm936d6f51fd36490c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f7e605ab0911271043s4102eedm936d6f51fd36490c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <701af9f70911272050t76fa2727h9b9787ae777a5eb9@mail.gmail.com>

Special thanks to Marilia for forwarding the following information
that may be of value to the governance list:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marilia Maciel <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 11:43 PM
Subject: [igcbp-talk] Who owns science?
To: igcbp-talk at googlegroups.com, Nikola Bozic <bozicn at gmail.com>


The Manchester Manifesto, launched in late November 2009, is a
response to the threat posed by the current system of Intellectual
Property. The document has its origins in the Institute’s launch event
during which we considered the question of ‘Who Owns Science?

See the Manifesto:
http://www.isei.manchester.ac.uk/TheManchesterManifesto.pdf


--
Please note that when replying to this message will send your reply to
the whole group!

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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-- 
Regards.
--------------------------
Fouad Bajwa
Advisor & Researcher
ICT4D & Internet Governance
Member Multistakeholder Advisory Group (IGF)
Member Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus (IGC)
My Blog: Internet's Governance
http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/
Follow my Tweets:
http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
MAG Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATVDW1tDZzA
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From parminder at itforchange.net  Sat Nov 28 06:21:55 2009
From: parminder at itforchange.net (Parminder)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:51:55 +0530
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4BA221AE17C046ECB7C5AAC212A585F9@userPC>
References: <4BA221AE17C046ECB7C5AAC212A585F9@userPC>
Message-ID: <4B1107D3.7090301@itforchange.net>

I agree, the real spirit behind this discussion is the need to recognize 
the immense policy implications of many issues that are arising in the 
context of the Internet that require global policy responses, and the 
complete absence of any mechanisms adequate to the purpose. In the case 
of Kindle, and other quoted examples, as discussed, the policy issues 
are about anti-competitive vertical integration, non 
inter-interoperability/ non open standards etc, which become significant 
obstacles to access to knowledge for countries with little market power. 
In the hugely monopolistic global digital spaces with few global players 
having unprecedented distortive market powers, only global regulation 
can address these issues. What are we doing about it? What are our views 
on it?

While other responses can very well be shared, it may be important to 
specifically discuss this important matter of global Internet policy 
making. IGC, as Micheal says, has an important role and mandate to 
squarely address this issue. Parminder

Michael Gurstein wrote:
> I'ld like to toss a few somewhat disconnected but related 
> propositions/statements into this very fruitful discussion.
>  
> 1. times (and technologies) change. If certain principles (rights?) 
> are meant to be universal and unchangeable but don't seem to connect 
> very well with changed times/technologies then either the principles 
> need to change (but they are unchangeable) or some alternative route 
> needs to be found to respond to those changes either by facilitating a 
> reinterpretation/extension of those principles or by finding a 
> substitute mechanism that achieves a similar end.
>  
> 2. the IGC is meant to be civil societies voice in Internet Governance 
> issues. The question here is whether there are new issues arising 
> which need a Civil Society position and a Civil Society voice in 
> Internet Governance fora. 
>  
> 3. the Internet is by its very nature global and in many aspects does 
> not allow for national regulation/policy making/control etc.etc. 
> Either those aspects will remain unrgulated/un-"policied"/uncontrolled 
> or mechanisms need to be developed at the global level to respond to these
>  
> 4. for the US Government movies (and cultural products in general) are 
> seen as consumer products equivalent to bars of soap or chinese food 
> in Geneva i.e. to be subject only to consumer protection/regulation 
> (and to be governed under the jurisdiction of the WTO).  For many 
> other countries (Canada being a notable leader in this for very 
> significant and applicable reasons which I could explain if asked) 
> movies (and cultural products in general) are seen as a fundamental 
> element of national culture to be protected as such under the UNDHR 
> with a special global Convention on Cultural Diversity (through 
> UNESCO) created specifically to ensure those and directly related issues.
>  
> I'm wondering if what we are discussing here might not be the 
> beginnings of such a necessary global mechanism (there are a range of 
> these of various strengths/applicabliity) and is it not incumbent on 
> we as the IGC to be taking some leadership in this area?
>  
> Mike
>  
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* Parminder [mailto:parminder at itforchange.net]
>     *Sent:* Friday, November 27, 2009 6:44 AM
>     *To:* governance at lists.cpsr.org; Meryem Marzouki
>     *Subject:* Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
>     [governance] Example
>
>     Meryem
>
>
>     I started my email by saying we may not want to use the terms
>     'authoritarianism' or 'human rights' here.
>
>     The reference to Mexican food in Geneva came after a round where
>     the term 'authoritarian' had been kind of muted out of the
>     discussion, and Micheal had made a clear case of '/access to the
>     tools that allow for or facilitate the use of the Internet
>     especially when those tools are linked into some sort of
>     monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
>     should surely fall under that rubric".
>
>     / Speaking of Mexican food in Geneva in this context, and also
>     with new examples like paypal being added to the kindle one, is in
>     my view insensitive and inconsiderate to the basic set of concerns
>     being expressed.
>
>     Also, at least i did not say 'authoritarian nonsense' :) ...
>
>     In the global digital space, which is a new global social space,
>     private monopolistic controls are a huge issue, perhaps 'the'
>     issue, and it is obvious that this is what was being discussed at
>     this stage, along with corresponding issue of debilitating
>     exclusions..
>
>     I would not consider non-availability of one set of goods or
>     others in  a country as a comparable example. What is more
>     comparable is what I found to some shock when I visited Iran a few
>     years back. Credit cards do not work there because the companies
>     are mostly US and they follow a kind of embargo. Many people came
>     to meeting I went for without enough cash, and they had to use
>     credit cards in black (illegal overseas transactions) to get cash.
>     And of course normal business in Iran would be hugely affected,
>     locally, as well as globally. it is this kind of basic enabling
>     services that need to be treated at a very different level than
>     simple goods. And as digital world gets more and more enmeshed in
>     our lives, these monopolies, and imperialistic powers behind it,
>     is the issue at stake, and begins discussed. Correspondingly, it
>     is the deep exclusions and new dependencies that will develop that
>     are of concern.
>
>     I know you do agree to these concerns generally, but do not agree
>     to frame them as a human rights issue. I can agree. But when you
>     say, it may not be even be an issue of 'consumer rights' i may not
>     agree. As you said in an earlier email, it may not be so much that
>     I want to use a particular commercial software as a right, as of
>     open standards and inter-interoperability with local options that
>     can be developed. That is a certainly a huge consumer right issue.
>
>     Best, Parminder
>
>     /
>     /
>     Meryem Marzouki wrote:
>>     Parminder,
>>
>>     I fully agree with you that regulation of giant corporates - not
>>     only at global but also at regional and national levesl in
>>     countries where they operate or have subsidiaries - as you
>>     formulate it is an issue of foremost importance and that it is
>>     much needed. This issue has in addition to be dealt with in
>>     various fora and framework, not only those related to Internet
>>     governance, as the "Proposal for a WTO Agreement on the Supply of
>>     Knowledge as a Global Public Good" example forwarded by Michael
>>     shows.
>>
>>     However, it's not fair to interpret as "inappropriate",
>>     "inconsiderate", and "a smack of insensitivity" an - ironical, I
>>     admit - comment of the very specific and minor consumer issue as
>>     the one brought by Fouad with the example of Amazon Kindle
>>     software for PC not being available in Pakistan. By minor, I
>>     mean that it's an inconvenience, not a violation of human rights
>>     nor an obstacle to development, not even a breach of any consumer
>>     rights (consumer rights does not include any "right to consume").
>>
>>     The irony of the comment (comparison with unavailabity of good
>>     Mexican food in Geneva) was simply proportional to the
>>     exageration in calling "authoritarianism" the fact that a given
>>     commercial product is not available in a given country. Words
>>     matter, because they express concepts and there unadequate use
>>     might lead to the dilution of these concepts and the softening of
>>     problems that really matter, by equating them to minor issues. I
>>     am sure this was certainly not Fouad's intention, but we should
>>     be cautious on this kind of process: they are intentionally used
>>     far too often, and it's so easy to get traped.
>>
>>     I lived during the first 25 years of my life in Tunisia, my other
>>     country of culture and citizenship and my country of birth, still
>>     have family there and visit them regularly. You cannot imagine
>>     the number of goods and services that are not available there
>>     (not even speaking of affordability), for various reasons: market
>>     not wide enough for some goods or services, too expensive or not
>>     worth to be imported (the Tunisian Dinar is not quoted on the
>>     international currency market) and many other commercial or
>>     financial reasons as already suggested in this discussion.
>>     Conversely, there are also Tunisian goods and services that I
>>     cannot find elsewhere in the world. Too bad, but so what? 
>>
>>     As far as I'm concerned, I keep the word 'authoritarianism' for
>>     cases when, e.g. a book cannot be found in Tunisia (or is taken
>>     by the police in your luggage when you enter the country) for
>>     censorship reasons, not when I cannot find it easily in any
>>     Tunisian bookshop simply because no one besides me would be
>>     interested in reading (and thus buying) it.
>>
>>     Best,
>>     Meryem
>>
>>     Le 27 nov. 09 à 13:30, Parminder a écrit :
>>
>>>     Hi All
>>>
>>>     Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an
>>>     interesting discussion...
>>>
>>>     Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and
>>>     human rights here, the underlying issue is of great importance
>>>     suggesting urgent need for global Internet policy making, and
>>>     developing institutions that are adequate to that purpose. The
>>>     issue also suggests that existing global policy institutions do
>>>     not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with this
>>>     global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more
>>>     and more aspects of our social lives...
>>>
>>>     It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i
>>>     agree with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be
>>>     enough alternative software/ devices and interoperability should
>>>     be ensured... But the point is, who ensures that. Economically
>>>     less powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to
>>>     regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies,
>>>     and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often
>>>     see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist'
>>>     designs of these companies which are almost all based in these
>>>     countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and
>>>     sustaining advantage (the framework of a new wave of
>>>     neo-imperialism).
>>>
>>>     Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now
>>>     rivals that of many states? There seem to be a clear and strong
>>>     tendency, shared by much of civil society in the developed world
>>>     - IGC not being immune to it - that Internet (and its digital
>>>     ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly. At least there
>>>     seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet
>>>     policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has
>>>     become all that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet
>>>     governance/ policy-making. (This has become almost a red-herring
>>>     now.) This is problematic for developing countries, and to the
>>>     collective interests of the people of these countries,  (the
>>>     right to development) which are in great danger of losing out as
>>>     the (non-level) digital playground is being set out, without due
>>>     regulation in global public interest. To get the right global
>>>     governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital
>>>     issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the
>>>     'development agenda in IG'.
>>>
>>>     I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate,
>>>     to compare such real problems that developing counties
>>>     increasingly face, and will face in future to an even greater
>>>     extent, like the non-availability of 'basic' and enabling
>>>     software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food
>>>     in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of
>>>     'certain persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain
>>>     multinational  invasion of  unprotected markets in developing
>>>     countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to raising
>>>     the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/
>>>     devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing
>>>     countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO
>>>     issues, but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under
>>>     consideration. They proceed from very different logics, but have
>>>     a convergence in the fact that  (1) global  economy (and
>>>     society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest , and
>>>     (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from
>>>     that of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and
>>>     governance systems have to be built which take into account
>>>     these differentials, without being formulaic about it. That in
>>>     my understanding constitutes the development agenda in global
>>>     forums.
>>>
>>>     Many other examples of commercial digital services have been
>>>     given - like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very
>>>     strong exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has
>>>     to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by
>>>     simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>>>
>>>     Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related
>>>     services to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing,
>>>     but there are strong issue there still), or Skype not being
>>>     available in a country which would cut its residents off many a
>>>     global tele-meetings (including civil society ones). Or, Google,
>>>     especially after it has all of us doing every second online
>>>     activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a
>>>     country... this surely isnt about Mexican food in Geneva.
>>>
>>>     Parminder
>>>
>>>
>>>     Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>     Bien sur!
>>>>
>>>>     M
>>>>
>>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>>     From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info] 
>>>>     Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
>>>>     To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>     Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
>>>>     of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     My English skills probably need improvement:
>>>>     First of all, it's not about participating in *a* debate, but  
>>>>     participating in *the democratic debate* (this means, at least in  
>>>>     French, full democratic participation).
>>>>     Second, it's about the "full exercize of democracy and of one's  
>>>>     fundamental rights", which means full democratic participation AND  
>>>>     full exercize of fundamental rights". To my knowledge, education/ 
>>>>     health/development are part of fundamental rights, aren't they? Meryem
>>>>
>>>>     Le 26 nov. 09 à 19:03, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>>     But opportunities to "participate in a debate" on something (e.g.
>>>>>     education/health/development) is rather narrower (and less significant
>>>>>     certainly) than an opportunity to actually have an 
>>>>>     education/health/development, or have I missed something.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>>>     From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>>     Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:52 AM
>>>>>     To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>     Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:
>>>>>     [governance] Example
>>>>>     of Corporate Internet Authoritarianism -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Hi Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>>     I thought this was covered by the "and one's fundamental rights" in
>>>>>     the second part of the sentence. By "full exercize of democracy" I
>>>>>     meant in this context participation in the democratic debate.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Le 26 nov. 09 à 18:36, Michael Gurstein a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>>     Thanks Meryem,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     I agree with your reformulation of my rather awkward initial
>>>>>>     formulation...
>>>>>>     My one caveat (and here I'm again demonstrating my lack of
>>>>>>     familiarity with
>>>>>>     the "Rights" discourse) is that the statement "access to the
>>>>>>     Internet as a
>>>>>>     necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy" seems to
>>>>>>     me rather
>>>>>>     too narrow in that one could add/substitute
>>>>>>     "development"/"health"/"education"/and so on for your terminology of
>>>>>>     "democracy".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Meryem: "I would rather state it differently: access to the
>>>>>>     Internet as a
>>>>>>     necessary requirement for the full exercize of democracy and one's
>>>>>>     fundamental right requires that there are accessible tools that
>>>>>>     allow for or
>>>>>>     facilitate the use of the Internet."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     From: Meryem Marzouki [mailto:meryem at marzouki.info]
>>>>>>     Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:54 AM
>>>>>>     To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>     Subject: Re: [governance] Example of Corporate Internet
>>>>>>     Authoritarianism -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     I agree with Carlos and Bill here. Even beyond this discussion, it's
>>>>>>     strange how often I've seen recently people - or organizations -
>>>>>>     speaking of consumer rights as human rights (i.e. fundamental
>>>>>>     rights). The
>>>>>>     fact that there exist national, regional, international
>>>>>>     legislation giving rights to consumers (w.r.t. to goods and services
>>>>>>     providers) does certainly not mean that this is a fundamental right!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Regarding Michael's interpretation that: "If access to the Internet
>>>>>>     is a necessary requirement for participation in an "Information
>>>>>>     Society" then access to the tools that allow for or facilitate the
>>>>>>     use of the Internet especially when those tools are linked into some
>>>>>>     sort of monopolistic position with respect to the use of the Internet
>>>>>>     should surely fall under that rubric.", I would rather state it
>>>>>>     differently: access to the Internet as a necessary requirement for
>>>>>>     the full exercize of democracy and one's fundamental right requires
>>>>>>     that there are accessible tools that allow for or facilitate the use
>>>>>>     of the Internet". In other words, the requirement is not to access
>>>>>>     tools provided in a monopolistic position, but that there should be
>>>>>>     no monopolies, i.e. alternative tools should exist and be accessible,
>>>>>>     allowing access to and production of information as well as full
>>>>>>     participation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Going back to Fouad's initial example: the point is not that Amazon's
>>>>>>     Kindle software for PC is not accessible in Pakistan (though it might
>>>>>>     be an inconvenience for some), but rather that you couldn't read a
>>>>>>     given book unless using Amazon's Kindle software for PC. Which is not
>>>>>>     the case, apparently, since I can read the mentioned report (http://
>>>>>>     report.knightcomm.org/) through other means, e.g. with my browser, on
>>>>>>     a MacIntosh, connected from Paris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Conclusion: it's a pure (and minor, I would say but this is a
>>>>>>     personal opinion) consumer issue: someone wants to buy a product
>>>>>>     which is not available in his/her country. See Bill's problem in
>>>>>>     getting good Mexican food in Geneva, which those who know Bill would
>>>>>>     qualify as a much more preoccupying problem;))
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Best,
>>>>>>     Meryem
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Le 26 nov. 09 à 14:30, Carlos A. Afonso a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>     Wow, what a strange discussion. Let's contribute to it: how about
>>>>>>>     iTunes
>>>>>>>     or AppleTV only working in developed countries (one cannot purchase
>>>>>>>     media without having a credit card account in the USA or some other
>>>>>>>     developed country)? How about only now Sony introduces the PS2
>>>>>>>     (PS2, an
>>>>>>>     obsolete gadget) in Brazil, and has no plans to introduce the PS3?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     I think the whole discussion is biased by a focus on being able to
>>>>>>>     consume (superfluous or not) stuff anywhere, whatever the big
>>>>>>>     companies
>>>>>>>     create to make us think we have to have it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     --c.a.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     McTim wrote:
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>     On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:18 AM, William Drake
>>>>>>>>     <william.drake at graduateinstitute.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>     Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>>     I think that Bill's casual dismissal of this issue is not
>>>>>>>>>>     appropriate.
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>     There's a difference between disagreeing with something and being
>>>>>>>>>     inappropriate.
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>>     The logic here is surely the same as the overall logic of a
>>>>>>>>>>     "Right to the
>>>>>>>>>>     Internet" (remembering that I claim no expertise in the domain
>>>>>>>>>>     of discussion
>>>>>>>>>>     around "Rights"...
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>     Really?  "Right to the Internet" is the same as declaring any
>>>>>>>>>     company that doesn't sell a product in a given country to be
>>>>>>>>>     "authoritarian."?  Sorry, but this strikes me as fuzzy logic, and
>>>>>>>>>     not the computer science kind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     It used to be that when a transnational firm entered a developing
>>>>>>>>>     country's market folks of certain persuasions would decry this as
>>>>>>>>>     imperialist etc.  But now if a firm does not enter a market we
>>>>>>>>>     can also call them names normally associated with governments
>>>>>>>>>     that brutalize their populations to retain political power?
>>>>>>>>>     Maybe you should notify all the groups working against WTO
>>>>>>>>>     agreements etc that they have it backwards and are promoting
>>>>>>>>>     authoritarianism, whereas what they really should be doing is
>>>>>>>>>     demanding that every company everywhere be required to sell
>>>>>>>>>     everything everywhere else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Fouad says Amazon is authoritarian because it "dictates who buys
>>>>>>>>>     or isn't allowed to buy from its website;" presumably, this would
>>>>>>>>>     apply to other companies and distribution channels as well.
>>>>>>>>>     Let's leave aside the many reasons why a company might not serve
>>>>>>>>>     a given market---costs, level of effective demand, distribution,
>>>>>>>>>     local partner requirements, regulatory/policy uncertainty/
>>>>>>>>>     unfavorability, the prospects of fraud (as Carlton notes), etc
>>>>>>>>>     etc---since I guess normal business considerations don't matter.
>>>>>>>>>     All that does by Fouad's standard is can I buy what I want, and
>>>>>>>>>     if not, they're equivalent with, say, the Burmese junta.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     I can't get real Mexican food at Geneva grocery stores.  I
>>>>>>>>>     couldn't buy a Coke at the Sharm airport, only Pepsi.  I can't
>>>>>>>>>     watch most US TV shows over the net in Switzerland.  I can't see
>>>>>>>>>     most non-Hollywood US films, e.g. indies, at Geneva movie
>>>>>>>>>     theaters.  But I want these things. So am I a victim of
>>>>>>>>>     authoritarianism?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     I'm sorry to hear that Kindle for PC is not currently available
>>>>>>>>>     in Pakistan.  Perhaps it would make sense to actually find out
>>>>>>>>>     why this is so and see if anything can be done to encourage
>>>>>>>>>     change?  Might be more productive than misplaced sloganeering.
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>     +1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     I knew if I waited long enough, someone would spend the time to
>>>>>>>>     say this!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     BTW, Fouad, can you not use a proxy service?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>     --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Carlos A. Afonso
>>>>>>>     CGI.br (www.cgi.br)
>>>>>>>     Nupef (www.nupef.org.br)
>>>>>>>     ====================================
>>>>>>>     new/nuevo/novo e-mail: ca at cafonso.ca
>>>>>>>     ====================================
>>>>>>>     ____________________________________________________________
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>>>>>     To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>>>>>     For all list information and functions, see:
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From dogwallah at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 07:48:59 2009
From: dogwallah at gmail.com (McTim)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:48:59 +0300
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
References: <EACABE31C54E4623B57A049480D22A99@userPC>
	 <4B0FC65D.7@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <f65fb55e0911280448w28c7136es4b93b34a783cab84@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting
> discussion...
>
> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human rights

I'm glad we are agreed on something.

> here, the underlying issue is of great importance

What is the underlying issue?  That goods and services are available
to some global consumers and not others?

suggesting urgent need for
> global Internet policy making, and developing institutions that are adequate
> to that purpose.

No, it doesn't suggest that at all.  What it suggests is an
opportunity for people to provide a service/software to those unserved
markets.


 The issue also suggests that existing global policy
> institutions do not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up with
> this global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of more and
> more aspects of our social lives...
>
> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree with
> Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough alternative
> software/ devices and interoperability should be ensured... But the point
> is, who ensures that.

Well, since the Kindle format is HTML based, that would be the W3C.

However, If Amazon wants to make proprietary software, that is their right, no?

There ARE many paypal alternatives, the free market ensures there are
alternatives.

Economically less powerful (developing) countries do
> not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital
> companies,

Sure they do, they enact laws and regulations that apply within their borders.

and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often
> see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' designs of
> these companies which are almost all based in these countries and bring
> them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining advantage (the framework of
> a new wave of neo-imperialism).
>
> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of
> many states?

Nation states (and regional grouping like the EU).

There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by much of
> civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to it - that
> Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left unregulated, mostly.

????  the Internet is (too) heavily regulated (and taxed) by national
governments.  Here in Kenya for example, ISPs are licensed and special
taxes apply (~35% of my access costs are direct taxes).  There are
content laws (and even content providers need a license).  The
government even shut down the IXP until it could figure out what kind
of beast it was and invent a new license for it.


At
> least there seems to be no urgency to do anything about global Internet
> policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has become all
> that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet governance/
> policy-making.

That's perhaps because it (statist control) is the single largest
threat to Internet freedom.

(This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is
> problematic for developing countries, and to the collective interests of the
> people of these countries,  (the right to development) which are in great
> danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital playground is being set out,
> without due regulation in global public interest. To get the right global
> governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital issue, in my
> opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in
> IG'.

So you'd like to build a global Internet police agency to enforce a
"right to paypal"?  That is completely unrealistic, not to mention
undesirable.


>
> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to compare
> such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, and will face
> in future to an even greater extent, like the non-availability of 'basic'
> and enabling software like e-readers, with non-availability  of Mexican food
> in Geneva... It is even more inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain
> persuasion' who in WTO arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of
> unprotected markets in developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in
> opposition to raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling
> software/ devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing
> countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, but do
> clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. They proceed
> from very different logics, but have a convergence in the fact that  (1)
> global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest
> , and (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from that
> of developed countries. Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems
> have to be built which take into account these differentials, without being
> formulaic about it. That in my understanding constitutes the development
> agenda in global forums.
>
> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - like
> paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong exclusionary effect of
> people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen and addressed in its real,
> felt forms and not by simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>
> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services to a
> country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are strong issue
> there still), or Skype not being available in a country which would cut its
> residents off many a global tele-meetings (including civil society ones).
> Or, Google, especially after it has all of us doing every second online
> activity on its platform, cutting off its services to a country...

You do every "second online activity" via Google because it offers
services that you want at a great price (free).  If Google/Skype/M$
shut off access to certain IP blocks (not countries), which is their
right IMO, then there are ways to route around such behavior
(proxies).

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
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From parminder at itforchange.net  Sat Nov 28 09:04:17 2009
From: parminder at itforchange.net (Parminder)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:34:17 +0530
Subject: [governance] Future of IGF
In-Reply-To: <f31ae3560911200048l7925f4eft8b4c062a49d97cde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5509d940911191159y18a58585nee036f532743fef9@mail.gmail.com> <f31ae3560911200048l7925f4eft8b4c062a49d97cde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B112DE1.6070402@itforchange.net>

Hi All

Enclosed is a spoken statement that IT for Change made in the stock 
taking session at the IGF meeting. I met the Under Secretary General as 
part of a civil society (CS) delegation the previous day and made the 
same comments to him. He seemed very interested in the concrete 
suggestions on improving the IGF and encouraged me to mention the same 
during the formal stock taking session, which I did.

In speaking with knowledgeable people at the IGF I am confirmed in my 
belief that non-continuation of the IGF is not  a serious option. It is 
only being used by some to raise the stakes on seeking some real changes 
to the IGF.

In so far as the IGC has consistently asked for strong reforms in the 
IGF, it is an urgent imperative that we propose some specific changes 
which can both further our advocacy goals and possibly be  a middle 
ground between those who prefer abolition of the IGF and those who want 
more or less the exact status quo. CS actors are perhaps the best-placed 
ones to propose completely new possibilities and try and work with 
important actors to fine-tune a solution mutually acceptable to both 
sides (status quoists and abolitionists), and which also serves our 
purpose best.

At WSIS, in my opinion, much of the involved CS almost exclusively 
'reacted' to the danger of UN and inter-governmental takeover of the 
Internet and took mostly defensive postures. Post WSIS too it has mostly 
not become alive to the other issue that is at least as important - the 
fact that Internet as a global phenomenon needs global policies to 
protect and further global public interest, and there is no system, 
neither any efforts towards evolution of one, for this purpose. Unless 
we address this crucial issue we would not win friends among developing 
countries, including the political civil society of these countries.

After some very muted response to the 'enhanced cooperation' debate - 
which is the WSIS designated space for such public policy development - 
CS now once again seems content to see the whole IGF review issue from a 
status quo-ist lens - 'somehow block an ITU take over'  (we have, in 
very early parts of our statement, spoken strongly against making any 
such move). In such a reactive stance, any openness towards seeking 
genuine structural reform in the IGF for the purpose of achieving the 
real purpose of the IGF seems largely absent.

Instead of just seeing red in everything China and Saudi Arabia says it 
is better to address issues on which they are right - that there is 
little meaning of public policy related deliberations when there are 
hardly any real Internet public policy making institutional mechanism at 
the global level. (No, OECD, EU, CoE and such do not constitute global 
systems, though often try to be so in their impact but not 
participation) We am absolutely convinced that they are very right on 
this count - and the  foot-dragging of the developed countries and, I 
dare say, most of civil society involved in IG arena, is wrong and 
unjustified. We seem to be very one-sided in choosing to villainize  
countries. 

We also think that MAG has to take on more substantial role/ power, of  
distilling from the work of committed issue-based working groups as well 
proceedings of the wider IGF, and come out with non-binging advices and 
recommendations, or at least meaningful compilation of plausible views 
and options on important IG issues. The WGIG model ,which for some 
unknown reasons (the hegemony of dominant discourse, of course) has 
become untouchable, gives us good leads of what can be achieved if a 
mutlistakeholder group is given a definite task, where some kind of 
outcomes just have to be produced in a time bound manner. Why should 
that model not be used for important IG issues within the IGF framework? 

In fact it is ironical that many CS actors at the same time hold that 
purely inter-governmental systems should not make global Internet policy 
while they are also against expanding the role and power of MAG (maybe 
with a different name) when this is the only really multi-stakeholder 
body in this space. If a purely inter-gov system should not make 
policies who should ? I am not saying IGF should make policies, but can 
they not even do preparatory work? And if a mutltistakeholder system 
cannot even do purposive preparatory work, how can it ever make 
policies? No one seems to be ready  to even propose a model. In such 
circumstances, it may justifiably be concluded that many of these actors 
really do not have much faith in global policy processes at all. They 
are of the self-regulation, market supremacy kind... That is a problem.

Anyway, the burden of the argument here is that a model of structural 
changes to the IGF is what is most required urgently. Much of the 
negotiations in the next few months will take place around that. Does 
the IGC want to hammer out a concrete proposal on this, and its members 
try to advocate it with other actors? If we plan to do it, we need to do 
it in the next month or so. I propose that the co-coordinators take up 
this responsibility in the coming weeks.

Parminder


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From gurstein at gmail.com  Sat Nov 28 11:58:52 2009
From: gurstein at gmail.com (Michael Gurstein)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 08:58:52 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <f65fb55e0911280448w28c7136es4b93b34a783cab84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52ED54F184BC4D4097515FFAC298D8E9@userPC>

McTim,

As in the case of cultural products (the Convention on Cultural Diversity)
and the emerging discussion around A2K, in a globalized world the practical
capacity of national governments to regulate knowledge (as other) products
based in some manner on a globally accessible platform (the Internet) is as
Parminder noted only available to the strong.

The capacity to do this is strengthened by the availability of global
agreements on what would be the allowable content of such regulations (and
would be even more strengthened with the availability of enforcing such
agreements but that is another discussion).

Why should the Internet be an exception to this (and would for example, such
an agreement be a means not only to enhance the capacity of weak governments
but also to control (or at least make accountable) the excesses of the
powerful ones (and perhaps weak ones such as your own)...

It need hardly be pointed out that much of the world is now suffering as a
result of the excesses of an absence of regulation in "knowledge (as other)
products based in some manner on a globally accessible platform" i.e. the
international unregulated trade in financial derivatives and the like.

M

-----Original Message-----
From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 4:49 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example


On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting 
> discussion...
>
> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human 
> rights

I'm glad we are agreed on something.

> here, the underlying issue is of great importance

What is the underlying issue?  That goods and services are available to some
global consumers and not others?

suggesting urgent need for
> global Internet policy making, and developing institutions that are 
> adequate to that purpose.

No, it doesn't suggest that at all.  What it suggests is an opportunity for
people to provide a service/software to those unserved markets.


 The issue also suggests that existing global policy
> institutions do not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up 
> with this global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of 
> more and more aspects of our social lives...
>
> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree 
> with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough 
> alternative software/ devices and interoperability should be 
> ensured... But the point is, who ensures that.

Well, since the Kindle format is HTML based, that would be the W3C.

However, If Amazon wants to make proprietary software, that is their right,
no?

There ARE many paypal alternatives, the free market ensures there are
alternatives.

Economically less powerful (developing) countries do
> not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global 
> digital companies,

Sure they do, they enact laws and regulations that apply within their
borders.

and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often
> see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' 
> designs of these companies which are almost all based in these 
> countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining 
> advantage (the framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism).
>
> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that 
> of many states?

Nation states (and regional grouping like the EU).

There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by much of
> civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to it - 
> that Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left unregulated, 
> mostly.

????  the Internet is (too) heavily regulated (and taxed) by national
governments.  Here in Kenya for example, ISPs are licensed and special taxes
apply (~35% of my access costs are direct taxes).  There are content laws
(and even content providers need a license).  The government even shut down
the IXP until it could figure out what kind of beast it was and invent a new
license for it.


At
> least there seems to be no urgency to do anything about global 
> Internet policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has 
> become all that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet 
> governance/ policy-making.

That's perhaps because it (statist control) is the single largest threat to
Internet freedom.

(This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is
> problematic for developing countries, and to the collective interests 
> of the people of these countries,  (the right to development) which 
> are in great danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital 
> playground is being set out, without due regulation in global public 
> interest. To get the right global governance  institutions and 
> outcomes to address this vital issue, in my opinion, is what should 
> centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'.

So you'd like to build a global Internet police agency to enforce a "right
to paypal"?  That is completely unrealistic, not to mention undesirable.


>
> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to 
> compare such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, 
> and will face in future to an even greater extent, like the 
> non-availability of 'basic' and enabling software like e-readers, with 
> non-availability  of Mexican food in Geneva... It is even more 
> inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain persuasion' who in WTO 
> arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of unprotected markets in 
> developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to 
> raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/ 
> devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing 
> countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, 
> but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. 
> They proceed from very different logics, but have a convergence in the 
> fact that  (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in 
> global public interest , and (2) the interest of developing countries 
> is often different from that of developed countries. Appropriate 
> global regulatory and governance systems have to be built which take 
> into account these differentials, without being formulaic about it. 
> That in my understanding constitutes the development agenda in global 
> forums.
>
> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - 
> like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong 
> exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen 
> and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by simplistic 
> comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>
> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services 
> to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are 
> strong issue there still), or Skype not being available in a country 
> which would cut its residents off many a global tele-meetings 
> (including civil society ones). Or, Google, especially after it has 
> all of us doing every second online activity on its platform, cutting 
> off its services to a country...

You do every "second online activity" via Google because it offers services
that you want at a great price (free).  If Google/Skype/M$ shut off access
to certain IP blocks (not countries), which is their right IMO, then there
are ways to route around such behavior (proxies).

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route
indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Sat Nov 28 13:18:31 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <52ED54F184BC4D4097515FFAC298D8E9@userPC>
Message-ID: <996485.87585.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Do we apply the same standards when addressing the rights of weaker individuals as we do when addressing the rights of weaker governments?
 
Who should a strong government be accountable to?
 
We cannot ignore the fact that quite often the weak are weak because of something they are responsible for.  As we cannot ignore the benevolence of so many on this list, we also cannot totally ignore the benevolence of strong government.  Sometimes weakness is a result of making a conscious choice not to risk what is given, by demanding what is earned.  If a weak government is a welfare government, what right do they have to demand?
 


--- On Sat, 11/28/09, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "'McTim'" <dogwallah at gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 4:58 PM


McTim,

As in the case of cultural products (the Convention on Cultural Diversity)
and the emerging discussion around A2K, in a globalized world the practical
capacity of national governments to regulate knowledge (as other) products
based in some manner on a globally accessible platform (the Internet) is as
Parminder noted only available to the strong.

The capacity to do this is strengthened by the availability of global
agreements on what would be the allowable content of such regulations (and
would be even more strengthened with the availability of enforcing such
agreements but that is another discussion).

Why should the Internet be an exception to this (and would for example, such
an agreement be a means not only to enhance the capacity of weak governments
but also to control (or at least make accountable) the excesses of the
powerful ones (and perhaps weak ones such as your own)...

It need hardly be pointed out that much of the world is now suffering as a
result of the excesses of an absence of regulation in "knowledge (as other)
products based in some manner on a globally accessible platform" i.e. the
international unregulated trade in financial derivatives and the like.

M

-----Original Message-----
From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 4:49 AM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example


On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Getting late into something which as  Carlos said is an interesting 
> discussion...
>
> Even if we agree to not apply the terms authoritarianism and human 
> rights

I'm glad we are agreed on something.

> here, the underlying issue is of great importance

What is the underlying issue?  That goods and services are available to some
global consumers and not others?

suggesting urgent need for
> global Internet policy making, and developing institutions that are 
> adequate to that purpose.

No, it doesn't suggest that at all.  What it suggests is an opportunity for
people to provide a service/software to those unserved markets.


The issue also suggests that existing global policy
> institutions do not cover a good deal of new ground that is opened up 
> with this global phenomenon of Internet becoming an important part of 
> more and more aspects of our social lives...
>
> It is fine to say that this is a consumer rights issue, and i agree 
> with Meryem that the real issue is that there should be enough 
> alternative software/ devices and interoperability should be 
> ensured... But the point is, who ensures that.

Well, since the Kindle format is HTML based, that would be the W3C.

However, If Amazon wants to make proprietary software, that is their right,
no?

There ARE many paypal alternatives, the free market ensures there are
alternatives.

Economically less powerful (developing) countries do
> not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global 
> digital companies,

Sure they do, they enact laws and regulations that apply within their
borders.

and so they have to simply submit. The developed countries often
> see strong economic interest in not disturbing the 'imperialist' 
> designs of these companies which are almost all based in these 
> countries and bring them  a lot of economic benefits and sustaining 
> advantage (the framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism).
>
> Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that 
> of many states?

Nation states (and regional grouping like the EU).

There seem to be a clear and strong tendency, shared by much of
> civil society in the developed world - IGC not being immune to it - 
> that Internet (and its digital ecosystem) should be left unregulated, 
> mostly.

????  the Internet is (too) heavily regulated (and taxed) by national
governments.  Here in Kenya for example, ISPs are licensed and special taxes
apply (~35% of my access costs are direct taxes).  There are content laws
(and even content providers need a license).  The government even shut down
the IXP until it could figure out what kind of beast it was and invent a new
license for it.


At
> least there seems to be no urgency to do anything about global 
> Internet policy arena. The fear of statist control on the Internet has 
> become all that ever counts in any discussion on global Internet 
> governance/ policy-making.

That's perhaps because it (statist control) is the single largest threat to
Internet freedom.

(This has become almost a red-herring now.) This is
> problematic for developing countries, and to the collective interests 
> of the people of these countries,  (the right to development) which 
> are in great danger of losing out as the (non-level) digital 
> playground is being set out, without due regulation in global public 
> interest. To get the right global governance  institutions and 
> outcomes to address this vital issue, in my opinion, is what should 
> centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'.

So you'd like to build a global Internet police agency to enforce a "right
to paypal"?  That is completely unrealistic, not to mention undesirable.


>
> I would consider it very inappropriate, and very inconsiderate, to 
> compare such real problems that developing counties increasingly face, 
> and will face in future to an even greater extent, like the 
> non-availability of 'basic' and enabling software like e-readers, with 
> non-availability  of Mexican food in Geneva... It is even more 
> inappropriate to speak of people of 'certain persuasion' who in WTO 
> arena oppose certain multinational  invasion of unprotected markets in 
> developing countries, as being a sentiment and act in opposition to 
> raising the issues of necessary provision of basic enabling software/ 
> devices on fair and open standard terms to people of developing 
> countries. Our organization has joined protests on many WTO issues, 
> but do clearly sympathize with the present issue under consideration. 
> They proceed from very different logics, but have a convergence in the 
> fact that  (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in 
> global public interest , and (2) the interest of developing countries 
> is often different from that of developed countries. Appropriate 
> global regulatory and governance systems have to be built which take 
> into account these differentials, without being formulaic about it. 
> That in my understanding constitutes the development agenda in global 
> forums.
>
> Many other examples of commercial digital services have been given - 
> like paypal etc - denial of which  can have a  very strong 
> exclusionary effect of people and groups... Exclusion has to be seen 
> and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by simplistic 
> comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>
> Think of Microsoft suddenly refusing to give Windows related services 
> to a country (I know many would take it as a blessing, but there are 
> strong issue there still), or Skype not being available in a country 
> which would cut its residents off many a global tele-meetings 
> (including civil society ones). Or, Google, especially after it has 
> all of us doing every second online activity on its platform, cutting 
> off its services to a country...

You do every "second online activity" via Google because it offers services
that you want at a great price (free).  If Google/Skype/M$ shut off access
to certain IP blocks (not countries), which is their right IMO, then there
are ways to route around such behavior (proxies).

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route
indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Sun Nov 29 09:45:33 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 06:45:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Avri: 'Work Group Guidlines' summary
Message-ID: <sympa.1259505380.67332.361@lists.cpsr.org>

Avri,

I'm trying to sort-out the Jurisdictional Boundaries's here, as they are bring
created for Work Groups.

Please summarize the intentions of the 'Work Group Guidelines'.
Ref.: Operating Model Guidebook (Links Below)

What is the purposeful outcome of having such Work Group Guidelines.

Is it;

1: A process of Applying (an application form) too Icann for WG status. (thus
becoming an Icann governable appendage, of Icann)?

2a: Is the WG independent of Icann, with an Affirmation of Commitments (AoC) of
the WG to Icann?
or
2b: Is the WG independent of Icann, with an Affirmation of Commitments (AoC)
from Icann to the WG?

3: Lets say that the CPSR.Org applies for WG Status and is accepted, In what
manner is the WG's Work-Product
subject to Icann's acceptance & rejection?

-
Ref. Links: Operating Model Guidebook - Updated 26 November.doc
https://st.icann.org/icann-ppsc/index.cgi?working_group_team

PDF:
https://st.icann.org/data/workspaces/icann-ppsc/attachments/working_group_team:20091126101248-0-5062/original/Operating%20Model%20Guidebook%20-%20Updated%2026%20November.pdf

DOC:
https://st.icann.org/data/workspaces/icann-ppsc/attachments/working_group_team:20091126101257-0-5832/original/Operating%20Model%20Guidebook%20-%20Updated%2026%20November.doc

---
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From avri at acm.org  Sun Nov 29 12:26:45 2009
From: avri at acm.org (Avri Doria)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:26:45 -0500
Subject: [governance] Avri: 'Work Group Guidlines' summary
In-Reply-To: <sympa.1259505380.67332.361@lists.cpsr.org>
References: <sympa.1259505380.67332.361@lists.cpsr.org>
Message-ID: <B5578751-CD50-4DA2-8C99-D7D4320F30A9@acm.org>

Hi,

Not sure how much IGC will care about this issue, but since you asked on IGC, I will respond here.

Obviously I do not speak for ICANN or the GNSO, its council or anyone else.* But you directed the question to me and as I am participant in the process, I do have a viewpoint of my own.  That is what I express.

The working groups are one of the mandates of the GNSO reform - that instead of having a GNSO Council that followed a so-called legislative model, the new council (which took office in Seoul) would only  be the manager of the process with the policy development actually being done in WGs that were open to all ICANN participants as well as others (to some TBD degree).

As part of that change, the GNSO Council as part of the policy development process has been setting up working groups over the past year and has been evolving a set of ad-hoc guidelines for what it meant to be a WG in the GNSO/ICANN context.

The guidelines you reference are meant to reflect the experience of working with WGs for the past year plus the experience gained from other organizations that use such entities (BTw, I did not check the references you appended so am just assuming that they are reflections of the current level of work in the work team focusing on them,).  They are intended to set a recommended way in which WGs would be formed, organized and managed.  The guidelines are written the way they are by referring to Chartering Organizations instead of just GNSO Council, as one example of a chartering organization, in order to try and make the rules accessible to other ICANN groups that may wish to charter a WG.  I believe there is a general belief among those working on these guidelines that it is best if there is a general similarity in the way various WGs function without having absolute rules that assume one size fits all, hence the drafting of guidelines.

I believe these Guidelines wil be going out for public review at some point in the process.

So in direct response to the choices you gave, I believe it is none of the above.  In terms of 2ab specifically, these will not be independent of ICANN, but will be part of ICANN, assuming the chartering organization is part of ICANN, and one can imagine might be one of the things that are looked at in the AoC's review of the policy development process (pure guesswork as the working of the AoC reviews is still rather raw and opaque as far as I can tell)

I am willing to respond to other questions from the vantage point of someone participating in the process, but will ignore any message that uses this as yet  another opportunity to tell me how much they hate any of the I*s or how they find any of those who participate in the I* processes to be less then acceptable as human beings.

cheers,

a.

* In case people don't know, I am no longer part of the GNSO Council and am no longer under contract to the UN/IGF - no volunteer avocation and no job.  so i really really cannot be considered as speaking for anyone anywhere at anytime.  at least for now, until i find a new avocation based task or find a job.

On 29 Nov 2009, at 09:45, Yehuda Katz wrote:

> Avri,
> 
> I'm trying to sort-out the Jurisdictional Boundaries's here, as they are bring
> created for Work Groups.
> 
> Please summarize the intentions of the 'Work Group Guidelines'.
> Ref.: Operating Model Guidebook (Links Below)
> 
> What is the purposeful outcome of having such Work Group Guidelines.
> 
> Is it;
> 
> 1: A process of Applying (an application form) too Icann for WG status. (thus
> becoming an Icann governable appendage, of Icann)?
> 
> 2a: Is the WG independent of Icann, with an Affirmation of Commitments (AoC) of
> the WG to Icann?
> or
> 2b: Is the WG independent of Icann, with an Affirmation of Commitments (AoC)
> from Icann to the WG?
> 
> 3: Lets say that the CPSR.Org applies for WG Status and is accepted, In what
> manner is the WG's Work-Product
> subject to Icann's acceptance & rejection?
> 
> -
> Ref. Links: Operating Model Guidebook - Updated 26 November.doc
> https://st.icann.org/icann-ppsc/index.cgi?working_group_team
> 
> PDF:
> https://st.icann.org/data/workspaces/icann-ppsc/attachments/working_group_team:20091126101248-0-5062/original/Operating%20Model%20Guidebook%20-%20Updated%2026%20November.pdf
> 
> DOC:
> https://st.icann.org/data/workspaces/icann-ppsc/attachments/working_group_team:20091126101257-0-5832/original/Operating%20Model%20Guidebook%20-%20Updated%2026%20November.doc
> 
> ---
> ____________________________________________________________
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From yehudakatz at mailinator.com  Sun Nov 29 14:58:41 2009
From: yehudakatz at mailinator.com (Yehuda Katz)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:58:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Avri: 'Work Group Guidlines' summary
In-Reply-To: B5578751-CD50-4DA2-8C99-D7D4320F30A9@acm.org
Message-ID: <sympa.1259524695.67332.977@lists.cpsr.org>

Thank you Avri, for providing a "live-explanation" of the current flora, 
I'd been struggling with how the latest 'culturual & systemic' incarnation at
Icann will work,
and if it would work for/with WG's I am involved with.

I for one feel that the IGF is drifting, ... away from a 'virtualized
governance' (a independent Internet Governance) too a 'grounded real-world'
governance of individual Nation-State control.

As it is now I'm weighing the IGF-counter-Icann and judging the resultant
conditions each venue provides. (where my allegiance lies).
Or it is perhaps that something New may have to be created.

In retrospect, it would be ideal if the ICANN GNSO & the UN IGF adapot a common
set of	'Work Group Guidlines', in that the WG's can work integrally between
both.
But thats Ideal. 

Thank you so much.
Kind regards
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From parminder at itforchange.net  Sun Nov 29 19:56:47 2009
From: parminder at itforchange.net (Parminder)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 06:26:47 +0530
Subject: [governance] Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers
In-Reply-To: <4B12E15A.5060800@gmail.com>
References: <4B12E15A.5060800@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B13184F.8060000@itforchange.net>

Private policing..... Shows the kind of global policy issues and 
frameworks that are at stake. Parminder

> Page last updated at 13:54 GMT, Friday, 27 November 2009
> E-mail this to a friend     Printable version
> Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers
> By Jonathan Fildes
> Technology reporter, BBC News
>
> Ethernet cable
> Software is used to track down the suspected pirates
>
> Around 15,000 suspected pirates may soon get legal letters accusing 
> them of illegally sharing movies and games.
>
> ACS:Law plans to send notes to the accused in the new year offering a 
> chance to settle out of court for "several hundreds of pounds".
>
> A lawyer who has defended people who have received similar letters 
> described it as a "scattergun approach" that would catch "innocent 
> people".
>
> ACS:Law said it was "unaware" of anyone who had been wrongly sent a 
> letter.
>
> Andrew Crossley of the firm told BBC News it was acting to "eradicate" 
> sharing of its client's products.
>
> "We give them opportunity to enter into compromise right at the start 
> to avoid having to deal with it [in court]," said Mr Crossley.
>
> If it went to court and the lawyers were successful, he said, damages 
> "would run into several thousands of pounds".
>
> But consumer group Which? said that it had heard from around 150 
> consumers who had been "wrongly accused" in similar cases.
>
> "A lot are accused of downloading pornography," Jaclyn Clarabut of 
> Which? told BBC News. "People find it distressing or embarrassing and 
> pay up."
>
> Others, she said, "don't want the threat of court action" hanging over 
> them or cannot afford to pay for a lawyer and settle the claim for the 
> lower figure.
>    We estimate that commencing in the New Year we will be despatching 
> circa 15,000 letters in relation to these two orders
> Andrew Crossley
>
> She said that based on previous experience, "a lot of people will be 
> surprised" by the latest wave of letters.
>
> Michael Coyle, lawyer at Southampton based firm Lawdit, described the 
> scheme as "having very little to do with protecting the rights of the 
> copyright holder".
>
> Instead, he said, it was "more to do with making money from alleging 
> copyright infringements on a massive scale".
>
> He has represented several hundred clients who have received letters 
> from ACS: Law and other firms. None of his clients has ever been 
> forced by a court to pay a fine, he said, although some clients had 
> decided to settle out of court.
>
> "This scattergun approach to the file sharing litigation will 
> inevitably result in a large number of innocent parties being issued 
> with a claim for copyright infringement."
>
> ACS: Law are "currently under investigation" by the Solicitors 
> Regulation Authority (SRA), but a spokesperson said it could not 
> divulge any more details about the nature of the complaints. The Law 
> Society has also received complaints.
>
> Mr Crossley said his firm had been targeted by an "internet campaign" 
> and was cooperating with the inquiries.
>
> "It doesn't of itself indicate that I have done anything wrong," he 
> said. "I have no qualms or concerns about what I am doing."
>
> Data harvest
>
> ACS: Law recently obtained two High Court orders that require ISPs to 
> hand over the names and addresses of the account holders for 30,000 IP 
> addresses, a number which can identify a computer on the internet. It 
> is currently preparing three more.
>
> The orders were obtained on behalf of two German clients: DigiProtect 
> and MediaCat.
> Mouse and keyboard
> Which? say innocent people have been caught out in similar cases
>
> Both firms are licensees of copyright work. They act on behalf of 
> copyright holders, including various pornography studios, to pursue 
> alleged copyright infringements.
>
> They use software to monitor file sharing networks to harvest IP 
> addresses which are then turned over to law firms to get account details.
>
> "We state that they [the alleged file-sharers] have made available to 
> others via peer-to-peer file-sharing networks various products that 
> they have rights in," said Mr Crossley.
>
> He said these included "games, films and music".
>
> "We estimate that commencing in the New Year we will be despatching 
> circa 15,000 letters in relation to these two orders," he said.
>
> The letters would be used to tell the alleged "file-sharer" that they 
> were thought to have infringed copyright.
>
> It would also inform recipients that a claim may be made against them 
> in court and would "invite" them "to enter into a compromise to avoid 
> any litigation."
>
> The amount would vary, he said, but was typically £300-500.
>
> The money is split between the copyright holder, licensee, the firm 
> monitoring IP addresses and ACS: Law, which operates on a no win, no 
> fee basis.
>
> 'Spoof' address
>
> Concerns have been raised about the technology used to identify IP 
> addresses.
>
> Which? has highlighted various examples of innocent people accused by 
> firms such as DigiProtect .
>
> "Many have never heard of peer-to-peer file sharing," said Ms Clarabut.
>    ILLEGAL FILE-SHARING
> File-sharing is not illegal. It only becomes illegal when users are 
> sharing content, such as music, that is protected by copyrights
> The crackdown will be aimed at people who regularly use technologies, 
> such as BitTorrent, and websites, such as The Pirate Bay, to find and 
> download files
> There are plenty of legitimate services which use file-sharing 
> technology such as some on-demand TV services
>
> Q&A: Disconnecting file-sharers
>
> "Some are accused of downloading video games but never played a game 
> in their life."
>
> A study published in 2008 by Which? highlighted the case of Scottish 
> couple Gill and Ken Murdoch, aged 54 and 66, who were accused of 
> sharing a video game.
>
> At the time, Mrs Murdoch told Which?: "We do not have, and have never 
> had, any computer game or sharing software."
>
> The letters were sent by another law firm, which no longer represents 
> DigiProtect. Mr Crossley said the Murdochs had been identified because 
> the ISP gave the lawyers the wrong information about the account.
>
> Mr Crossley admitted the account holder may not be the person sharing 
> files illegally. As a result, he said, the letter, would also invite 
> the recipient to name the person they thought was responsible.
>
> The growing popularity of wi-fi means many people share an internet 
> connection. Recent studies have also shown that many people do not 
> password protect their wi-fi connections, meaning they can be hijacked 
> and used for nefarious means.
>
> In addition, technology exists that can hide or "spoof" an IP address.
>
> Mr Crossley said that "spoofing" did not apply for file sharing purposes.
>
> Expert analysis
>
> Mr Coyle said he also had reservations about the methods used to 
> identify people and said they had never been challenged in court by 
> experts.
>
> "The last thing they want is this software being examined in a court 
> of Law - it would shoot the goose that lays the Golden Egg," he said.
>
> No court case has ever been fully decided from a letter sent by ACS: 
> Law, he said.
>
> Although Mr Crossley admitted the software had never been analysed in 
> court, he denied it had never been scrutinised.
>
> "Every application submitted to court is supported by an expert 
> report," he said.
>
> The report was compiled by "an independent expert" and confirmed that 
> the "data being collected is accurate".
>
> "That is the starting point for us," said Mr Crossley. "It is very 
> important for us to be accurate. If it is not, everything that comes 
> from that data must be flawed."
>
> Similar concerns are currently being outlined to the UK government 
> which recently outlined how it plans to tackle illegal file-sharers.
>
> The Digital Economy bill recently had its first reading and includes a 
> plan to disconnect persistent offenders.
> BBC News - Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers (29 
> November 2009)
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8381097.stm
>
>
>
>
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From anriette at apc.org  Sun Nov 29 22:52:59 2009
From: anriette at apc.org (Anriette Esterhuysen)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:52:59 +0200
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <996485.87585.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <996485.87585.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1259553179.19867.282.camel@anriette-laptop>

Hi all

It is good to be having this discussion. If we want to make a convincing
argument to have a greater focus on rights at the next IGF we should
have good proposals for how to unpack and approach the issue by the Feb
2010 consultations.

I would suggest there are three main threads here.. and then different
strategies and tacties, depending which terrain one is working on.

Thread one is (as expressed well by Meryem and Michael) is that in order
to excercise basic rights such as freedom of expression, freedom of
association, and more (rights which are already reflected in global
instruments like the UDHR) all people should have access to the
internet.

This raises the challenge of how to express affordable access to the
internet for all as a basic right. We can't avoid this. Whether you call
it a 'new right' or a pre-condition for excercising existing rights, we
have to work harder to address the access gap. 

An analogy would be the right to education (Articla 26 of the UDHR). In
practice, realising this rights requires access to schools, and is
enforced through global directives for education to made compulsory at
national level. Interesting to look at:
http://www.right-to-education.org/ 


Thread two relates to what kind of access people have. Is it
unrestricted, does it supports basic rights such as freedom of
expression, association etc.. If not, then access does not effectively
enable you to excercise basic human rights. Re. the important work of
the OpenNet Initiative. Open standards can also impact on the type of
access. E.g. a case in South Africa where the electoral commission's
website during the 2009 national election was only viewable with
Internet Explorer. An open source advocate made a complaint against the
commission with the Human Rights Commission.

The work of the IRP coalition is trying to capture these two threads in
the form of basic principles and rights that can be used as a point of
reference in global internet governance. 

Thread three is Parminder's point which is that it is not just
intervention by national governments (e.g. filtering, surveillance,
censorship) that limits the kind of *free* access needed to excercise
one's human rights, it is also the market structure of the internet
industry. He is arguing that one needs global regulation of some kind to
limit this.

Thread four is consumer rights which come into play when you are not,
putting it bluntly, 'getting what you are paying for' in terms of
content and quality of service and support. In some cases these rights
need to be defended against a particular service provider (e.g. Telkom
in South Africa my ADSL provider grrrrr!!!) or, against an
industry/sector, e.g. to use another South African example, mobile
operators overcharging consumers for interconnection/termination fees
between different operators.

Parminder, what I think you argument can be strengthened by is a clearer
sense of WHO to hold accountable for WHAT RIGHTS.

There is no point in lobbying for global regulation unless you consider
who will enforce that regulation.

We need to distinguish between global regulation and globally agreed on
regulatory guidelines which inform national regulation. Or are you
actually (asking Parminder) proposing the establishment of a global
regulator of some kind?

In APC's work on trying to get West Africa regulators to be more
empowered in relation to the multi-nationally owned and controlled SAT3
undersea cable it was alarming that some of them did not sufficiently
grasp that they had the power to regulate SAT3 pricing under their
national jurisdiction.

I agree with you that global guidelines are needed to prevent
anti-competitive behaviour. But we need to remember that to enforce them
you need to work at national level. Many of us have been doing that of
course, particularly at the level of advocacy and research in ICT policy
and regulation.

What we have not been doing enough of (I think) is supporting consumer
rights campaigns, and tackling actual anti-competitive behaviour through
raising issues with competition tribunals. There already fairly
reasonable anti-competitive clauses in global telcoms regulation
guidelines. The difficulty is that they are not being enforced or
implemented effectively at national level.

My point is that the discussion of global rights and principles is very
useful to distil our thinking about rights and the internet, but, if we
want to bring about change in how people have access and how they can
use the internet we have to work in a more holistic way at national
level, and, tackling anti-competitive behaviour which harm consumer
rights in ways that limit the expression of their human rights.

One of the primary reasons that civil society organisations in many
parts of the world are not working in this important area is because of
the often (in my opinion) immobilising debate on market vs. state roles
and responsibilities. 

We tend to work on macro policy issues (which are important) and then
(particularly in developing countries) we are not active in how these
policies translate into day to day experience of users.

Surely there is general consensus that the role of the state
(regulators) is to ensure that market structure is open, with low entry
barriers for small players, competitive, ensure accountability by
providers to consumers.. and so on.  There will be nuts and bolts issues
to argue about, e.g. licensing fees, universal access funds, state
supported public access, incentives/barriers for foreign investors,
equity issues, local language and content quotas and so on. 

Am I wrong in feeling that we are, in a manner of speaking, scratching
the surface with ideological discussions and not delving into detail
enough?

Anriette

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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 30 00:10:43 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:10:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <1259553179.19867.282.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <728035.94529.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I think the question should be: Should we deal with details before we have agreement on the general concepts?  Just getting it down on paper without debate on the rights and wrongs is only helping the pencil pushers and not the situation. Understanding should come before production.

--- On Mon, 11/30/09, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org> wrote:

Am I wrong in feeling that we are, in a manner of speaking, scratching
the surface with ideological discussions and not delving into detail
enough?

Anriette

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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Mon Nov 30 04:08:38 2009
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:08:38 +1100
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <1259553179.19867.282.camel@anriette-laptop>
Message-ID: <C739D6C6.8615%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>

Just picking up on one thread here -

> This raises the challenge of how to express affordable access to the
> internet for all as a basic right. We can't avoid this. Whether you call
> it a 'new right' or a pre-condition for excercising existing rights, we
> have to work harder to address the access gap.

The historical basis we can pick up is the right to communicate - the belief
that, in the event of any media becoming ubiquitous, lack of access to it
results in (at least) the lack of a fundamental opportunity, if not a right.

The right to communicate was advanced with the UNESCO MacBride report in
1983 - a contentious document. However the concept does go back to 1974, and
is the subject of quite a lot of literature since then.

A good summary is at http://www.righttocommunicate.org/

I would dearly love to see the right to communicate revised. Forget whether
its called the Internet or something else or what it morphs to - the lack of
access to any ubiquitous media is a denial of a fundamental human right and
opportunity.

Ian Peter 

 




> From: Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org>
> Organization: Association for Progressive Communications
> Reply-To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org>
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:52:59 +0200
> To: "governance at lists.cpsr.org" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
> Subject: RE: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
> 
> Hi all
> 
> It is good to be having this discussion. If we want to make a convincing
> argument to have a greater focus on rights at the next IGF we should
> have good proposals for how to unpack and approach the issue by the Feb
> 2010 consultations.
> 
> I would suggest there are three main threads here.. and then different
> strategies and tacties, depending which terrain one is working on.
> 
> Thread one is (as expressed well by Meryem and Michael) is that in order
> to excercise basic rights such as freedom of expression, freedom of
> association, and more (rights which are already reflected in global
> instruments like the UDHR) all people should have access to the
> internet.
> 
> This raises the challenge of how to express affordable access to the
> internet for all as a basic right. We can't avoid this. Whether you call
> it a 'new right' or a pre-condition for excercising existing rights, we
> have to work harder to address the access gap.
> 
> An analogy would be the right to education (Articla 26 of the UDHR). In
> practice, realising this rights requires access to schools, and is
> enforced through global directives for education to made compulsory at
> national level. Interesting to look at:
> http://www.right-to-education.org/
> 
> 
> Thread two relates to what kind of access people have. Is it
> unrestricted, does it supports basic rights such as freedom of
> expression, association etc.. If not, then access does not effectively
> enable you to excercise basic human rights. Re. the important work of
> the OpenNet Initiative. Open standards can also impact on the type of
> access. E.g. a case in South Africa where the electoral commission's
> website during the 2009 national election was only viewable with
> Internet Explorer. An open source advocate made a complaint against the
> commission with the Human Rights Commission.
> 
> The work of the IRP coalition is trying to capture these two threads in
> the form of basic principles and rights that can be used as a point of
> reference in global internet governance.
> 
> Thread three is Parminder's point which is that it is not just
> intervention by national governments (e.g. filtering, surveillance,
> censorship) that limits the kind of *free* access needed to excercise
> one's human rights, it is also the market structure of the internet
> industry. He is arguing that one needs global regulation of some kind to
> limit this.
> 
> Thread four is consumer rights which come into play when you are not,
> putting it bluntly, 'getting what you are paying for' in terms of
> content and quality of service and support. In some cases these rights
> need to be defended against a particular service provider (e.g. Telkom
> in South Africa my ADSL provider grrrrr!!!) or, against an
> industry/sector, e.g. to use another South African example, mobile
> operators overcharging consumers for interconnection/termination fees
> between different operators.
> 
> Parminder, what I think you argument can be strengthened by is a clearer
> sense of WHO to hold accountable for WHAT RIGHTS.
> 
> There is no point in lobbying for global regulation unless you consider
> who will enforce that regulation.
> 
> We need to distinguish between global regulation and globally agreed on
> regulatory guidelines which inform national regulation. Or are you
> actually (asking Parminder) proposing the establishment of a global
> regulator of some kind?
> 
> In APC's work on trying to get West Africa regulators to be more
> empowered in relation to the multi-nationally owned and controlled SAT3
> undersea cable it was alarming that some of them did not sufficiently
> grasp that they had the power to regulate SAT3 pricing under their
> national jurisdiction.
> 
> I agree with you that global guidelines are needed to prevent
> anti-competitive behaviour. But we need to remember that to enforce them
> you need to work at national level. Many of us have been doing that of
> course, particularly at the level of advocacy and research in ICT policy
> and regulation.
> 
> What we have not been doing enough of (I think) is supporting consumer
> rights campaigns, and tackling actual anti-competitive behaviour through
> raising issues with competition tribunals. There already fairly
> reasonable anti-competitive clauses in global telcoms regulation
> guidelines. The difficulty is that they are not being enforced or
> implemented effectively at national level.
> 
> My point is that the discussion of global rights and principles is very
> useful to distil our thinking about rights and the internet, but, if we
> want to bring about change in how people have access and how they can
> use the internet we have to work in a more holistic way at national
> level, and, tackling anti-competitive behaviour which harm consumer
> rights in ways that limit the expression of their human rights.
> 
> One of the primary reasons that civil society organisations in many
> parts of the world are not working in this important area is because of
> the often (in my opinion) immobilising debate on market vs. state roles
> and responsibilities.
> 
> We tend to work on macro policy issues (which are important) and then
> (particularly in developing countries) we are not active in how these
> policies translate into day to day experience of users.
> 
> Surely there is general consensus that the role of the state
> (regulators) is to ensure that market structure is open, with low entry
> barriers for small players, competitive, ensure accountability by
> providers to consumers.. and so on.  There will be nuts and bolts issues
> to argue about, e.g. licensing fees, universal access funds, state
> supported public access, incentives/barriers for foreign investors,
> equity issues, local language and content quotas and so on.
> 
> Am I wrong in feeling that we are, in a manner of speaking, scratching
> the surface with ideological discussions and not delving into detail
> enough?
> 
> Anriette
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>      governance at lists.cpsr.org
> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>      governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
> 
> For all list information and functions, see:
>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance


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From garth.graham at telus.net  Mon Nov 30 11:42:14 2009
From: garth.graham at telus.net (Garth Graham)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 08:42:14 -0800
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <C739D6C6.8615%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
References: <C739D6C6.8615%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <9C578A1A-11DA-46EA-B7A2-39C8972C037D@telus.net>

On 30-Nov-09, at 1:08 AM, Ian Peter wrote:

> The historical basis we can pick up is the right to communicate  
> - ....... I would dearly love to see the right to communicate  
> revised. Forget whether its called the Internet or something else  
> or what it morphs to - the lack of access to any ubiquitous media  
> is a denial of a fundamental human right and
> opportunity.

This thread raises another "fundamental" and historical right, one  
which also morphs and is central to the purpose of agencies like  
IGC.  People have a right to good governance.  But that right comes  
with a corresponding responsibility to say what that is.  It seems to  
me that "IGC" will always have difficulty meeting that responsibility  
effectively, because the range of opinions about the nature of good  
governance will remain contested.  Perhaps then the current message  
about the nature of good governance should be merely to reflect the  
range of opinions?

To me, the Internet is not "just a tool."  It's a symptom or emergent  
effect of a significant shift in the way we do things (including  
governance), away from the mechanistic and towards the relational.   
It was my intention in a previous post (repeated below) to unpack the  
idea of what a responsible statement of good governance now means in  
the context of that shift.  To me, it means that future effective  
regulation will be distributed locally and recursively, not  
globally.  The problem is to get appropriate "global" (and also  
national) regulatory and governance systems which take that shift  
into account. For example, the best national strategies for the uses  
of the Internet for development I'm seeing make a significant effort  
to address "digital inclusion" as an essential dimension of changed  
policy in the public interest.


> 	From: 	  garth.graham at telus.net
> 	Subject: 	Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE:  
> [governance] Example
> 	Date: 	November 27, 2009 7:06:59 AM PST
> 	To: 	  governance at lists.cpsr.org
> 	
> On 27-Nov-09, at 4:30 AM, Parminder wrote:
>
>> Economically less powerful (developing) countries do not have the  
>> muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital  
>> companies, and so they have to simply submit. ........ (the  
>> framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism). .......Who then  
>> regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of  
>> many states? ....... as the (non-level) digital playground is  
>> being set out, without due regulation in global public interest.  
>> To get the right global governance  institutions and outcomes to  
>> address this vital issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally  
>> constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'.
>> (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global  
>> public interest , and
>> (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from  
>> that of developed countries.
>> Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems have to be  
>> built which take into account these differentials, ... Exclusion  
>> has to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by  
>> simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>>
>
> "Who then regulates?" Indeed!
>
> There is a way to avoid merely replacing one form of global  
> authoritarianism with another. Elinor Ostrom  identifies eight  
> "design principles" (perhaps a better word in the context of  
> development capacity than "rights?) of stable local "common  
> property resource management" (1).  Considering the Internet'  
> social spaces as common property resources, a "form" of governance  
> that effectively addresses exclusion would need to include:
> 1.     Clearly defined boundaries (effective exclusion of external  
> unentitled parties);
> 2.     Rules regarding the appropriation and provision of common  
> resources are adapted to local conditions;
> 3.     Collective-choice arrangements allow most resource  
> appropriators to participate in the decision-making process;
> 4.     Effective monitoring by monitors who are part of or  
> accountable to the appropriators;
> 5.     There is a scale of graduated sanctions for resource  
> appropriators who violate community rules;
> 6.     Mechanisms of conflict resolution are cheap and of easy access;
> 7.     The self-determination of the community is recognized by  
> higher-level authorities;
> 8.     In the case of larger common-pool resources: organization in  
> the form of multiple layers of nested enterprises, with small local  
> CPRs at the base level.
>
> Reflecting on the application of these principles, it would seem  
> that the Internet's capacity to sustain the autonomy of self- 
> organizing communities of common interest is anything but chaos.  I  
> am comfortable that ISOC's "Internet Ecology" model of Internet  
> Governance is beginning to take these principles into account.
>
> [1] Ostrom, Elinor: Governing the Commons: The Evolution of  
> Institutions for Collective Action. Cambridge University Press.  
> 1990. p.90. and Understanding Institutional Diversity. Princeton,  
> Princeton University Press. 2005. p.259.

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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 30 11:49:59 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 08:49:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <9C578A1A-11DA-46EA-B7A2-39C8972C037D@telus.net>
Message-ID: <92178.87818.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I find the below short, a good place to address acces at its' core -- Right to infrastructure.
 
Telefonica to appeal wholesale regulation
Reuters reports that Telefonica intends to appeal a decision by Spanish telecoms regulator the CMT to impose conditions on the opening of its network infrastructure allowing competitors to use its conduits to roll out their own fibre networks. ‘The bilateral agreements that we have to share infrastructure have worked well and we see no reason for regulation to cover every single detail,’ the telco said on Friday. Last Thursday the CMT approved a range of prices, terms and services to allow alternative operators to deploy their own fibre-optic networks using Telefonica’s infrastructure, including its ducts, poles and exchange boxes.


--- On Mon, 11/30/09, Garth Graham <garth.graham at telus.net> wrote:


From: Garth Graham <garth.graham at telus.net>
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
To: "governance" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 4:42 PM


On 30-Nov-09, at 1:08 AM, Ian Peter wrote:

> The historical basis we can pick up is the right to communicate - ....... I would dearly love to see the right to communicate revised. Forget whether its called the Internet or something else or what it morphs to - the lack of access to any ubiquitous media is a denial of a fundamental human right and
> opportunity.

This thread raises another "fundamental" and historical right, one which also morphs and is central to the purpose of agencies like IGC.  People have a right to good governance.  But that right comes with a corresponding responsibility to say what that is.  It seems to me that "IGC" will always have difficulty meeting that responsibility effectively, because the range of opinions about the nature of good governance will remain contested.  Perhaps then the current message about the nature of good governance should be merely to reflect the range of opinions?

To me, the Internet is not "just a tool."  It's a symptom or emergent effect of a significant shift in the way we do things (including governance), away from the mechanistic and towards the relational.  It was my intention in a previous post (repeated below) to unpack the idea of what a responsible statement of good governance now means in the context of that shift.  To me, it means that future effective regulation will be distributed locally and recursively, not globally.  The problem is to get appropriate "global" (and also national) regulatory and governance systems which take that shift into account. For example, the best national strategies for the uses of the Internet for development I'm seeing make a significant effort to address "digital inclusion" as an essential dimension of changed policy in the public interest.


>     From:       garth.graham at telus.net
>     Subject:     Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
>     Date:     November 27, 2009 7:06:59 AM PST
>     To:       governance at lists.cpsr.org
>     
> On 27-Nov-09, at 4:30 AM, Parminder wrote:
> 
>> Economically less powerful (developing) countries do not have the muscle to regulate these unprecedentedly huge  global digital companies, and so they have to simply submit. ........ (the framework of a new wave of neo-imperialism). .......Who then regulates these giant corporates, whose power now rivals that of many states? ....... as the (non-level) digital playground is being set out, without due regulation in global public interest. To get the right global governance  institutions and outcomes to address this vital issue, in my opinion, is what should centrally constitute  the 'development agenda in IG'.
>> (1) global  economy (and society)  have to  regulated  in global public interest , and
>> (2) the interest of developing countries is often different from that of developed countries.
>> Appropriate global regulatory and governance systems have to be built which take into account these differentials, ... Exclusion has to be seen and addressed in its real, felt forms and not by simplistic comparisons, which smack of insensitivity.
>> 
> 
> "Who then regulates?" Indeed!
> 
> There is a way to avoid merely replacing one form of global authoritarianism with another. Elinor Ostrom  identifies eight "design principles" (perhaps a better word in the context of development capacity than "rights?) of stable local "common property resource management" (1).  Considering the Internet' social spaces as common property resources, a "form" of governance that effectively addresses exclusion would need to include:
> 1.     Clearly defined boundaries (effective exclusion of external unentitled parties);
> 2.     Rules regarding the appropriation and provision of common resources are adapted to local conditions;
> 3.     Collective-choice arrangements allow most resource appropriators to participate in the decision-making process;
> 4.     Effective monitoring by monitors who are part of or accountable to the appropriators;
> 5.     There is a scale of graduated sanctions for resource appropriators who violate community rules;
> 6.     Mechanisms of conflict resolution are cheap and of easy access;
> 7.     The self-determination of the community is recognized by higher-level authorities;
> 8.     In the case of larger common-pool resources: organization in the form of multiple layers of nested enterprises, with small local CPRs at the base level.
> 
> Reflecting on the application of these principles, it would seem that the Internet's capacity to sustain the autonomy of self-organizing communities of common interest is anything but chaos.  I am comfortable that ISOC's "Internet Ecology" model of Internet Governance is beginning to take these principles into account.
> 
> [1] Ostrom, Elinor: Governing the Commons: The Evolution of Institutions for Collective Action. Cambridge University Press. 1990. p.90. and Understanding Institutional Diversity. Princeton, Princeton University Press. 2005. p.259.

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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 30 11:54:09 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 08:54:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
In-Reply-To: <C739D6C6.8615%ian.peter@ianpeter.com>
Message-ID: <762907.20310.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

The basic human problem here is the access to tools.  But the core always comes back to that most primary of tools.  If the access is out there for those with the drive, ingenuity and study to use it -- should we be forced to provide it also to those with out the motivation?
 
So much is  accessable and most of what we pay for is simply the convenience.

--- On Mon, 11/30/09, Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com> wrote:


From: Ian Peter <ian.peter at ianpeter.com>
Subject: Re: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org, "Anriette Esterhuysen" <anriette at apc.org>
Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 9:08 AM


Just picking up on one thread here -

> This raises the challenge of how to express affordable access to the
> internet for all as a basic right. We can't avoid this. Whether you call
> it a 'new right' or a pre-condition for excercising existing rights, we
> have to work harder to address the access gap.

The historical basis we can pick up is the right to communicate - the belief
that, in the event of any media becoming ubiquitous, lack of access to it
results in (at least) the lack of a fundamental opportunity, if not a right.

The right to communicate was advanced with the UNESCO MacBride report in
1983 - a contentious document. However the concept does go back to 1974, and
is the subject of quite a lot of literature since then.

A good summary is at http://www.righttocommunicate.org/

I would dearly love to see the right to communicate revised. Forget whether
its called the Internet or something else or what it morphs to - the lack of
access to any ubiquitous media is a denial of a fundamental human right and
opportunity.

Ian Peter 






> From: Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org>
> Organization: Association for Progressive Communications
> Reply-To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>, Anriette Esterhuysen <anriette at apc.org>
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:52:59 +0200
> To: "governance at lists.cpsr.org" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
> Subject: RE: Extending Rights to the Internet: (Was RE: [governance] Example
> 
> Hi all
> 
> It is good to be having this discussion. If we want to make a convincing
> argument to have a greater focus on rights at the next IGF we should
> have good proposals for how to unpack and approach the issue by the Feb
> 2010 consultations.
> 
> I would suggest there are three main threads here.. and then different
> strategies and tacties, depending which terrain one is working on.
> 
> Thread one is (as expressed well by Meryem and Michael) is that in order
> to excercise basic rights such as freedom of expression, freedom of
> association, and more (rights which are already reflected in global
> instruments like the UDHR) all people should have access to the
> internet.
> 
> This raises the challenge of how to express affordable access to the
> internet for all as a basic right. We can't avoid this. Whether you call
> it a 'new right' or a pre-condition for excercising existing rights, we
> have to work harder to address the access gap.
> 
> An analogy would be the right to education (Articla 26 of the UDHR). In
> practice, realising this rights requires access to schools, and is
> enforced through global directives for education to made compulsory at
> national level. Interesting to look at:
> http://www.right-to-education.org/
> 
> 
> Thread two relates to what kind of access people have. Is it
> unrestricted, does it supports basic rights such as freedom of
> expression, association etc.. If not, then access does not effectively
> enable you to excercise basic human rights. Re. the important work of
> the OpenNet Initiative. Open standards can also impact on the type of
> access. E.g. a case in South Africa where the electoral commission's
> website during the 2009 national election was only viewable with
> Internet Explorer. An open source advocate made a complaint against the
> commission with the Human Rights Commission.
> 
> The work of the IRP coalition is trying to capture these two threads in
> the form of basic principles and rights that can be used as a point of
> reference in global internet governance.
> 
> Thread three is Parminder's point which is that it is not just
> intervention by national governments (e.g. filtering, surveillance,
> censorship) that limits the kind of *free* access needed to excercise
> one's human rights, it is also the market structure of the internet
> industry. He is arguing that one needs global regulation of some kind to
> limit this.
> 
> Thread four is consumer rights which come into play when you are not,
> putting it bluntly, 'getting what you are paying for' in terms of
> content and quality of service and support. In some cases these rights
> need to be defended against a particular service provider (e.g. Telkom
> in South Africa my ADSL provider grrrrr!!!) or, against an
> industry/sector, e.g. to use another South African example, mobile
> operators overcharging consumers for interconnection/termination fees
> between different operators.
> 
> Parminder, what I think you argument can be strengthened by is a clearer
> sense of WHO to hold accountable for WHAT RIGHTS.
> 
> There is no point in lobbying for global regulation unless you consider
> who will enforce that regulation.
> 
> We need to distinguish between global regulation and globally agreed on
> regulatory guidelines which inform national regulation. Or are you
> actually (asking Parminder) proposing the establishment of a global
> regulator of some kind?
> 
> In APC's work on trying to get West Africa regulators to be more
> empowered in relation to the multi-nationally owned and controlled SAT3
> undersea cable it was alarming that some of them did not sufficiently
> grasp that they had the power to regulate SAT3 pricing under their
> national jurisdiction.
> 
> I agree with you that global guidelines are needed to prevent
> anti-competitive behaviour. But we need to remember that to enforce them
> you need to work at national level. Many of us have been doing that of
> course, particularly at the level of advocacy and research in ICT policy
> and regulation.
> 
> What we have not been doing enough of (I think) is supporting consumer
> rights campaigns, and tackling actual anti-competitive behaviour through
> raising issues with competition tribunals. There already fairly
> reasonable anti-competitive clauses in global telcoms regulation
> guidelines. The difficulty is that they are not being enforced or
> implemented effectively at national level.
> 
> My point is that the discussion of global rights and principles is very
> useful to distil our thinking about rights and the internet, but, if we
> want to bring about change in how people have access and how they can
> use the internet we have to work in a more holistic way at national
> level, and, tackling anti-competitive behaviour which harm consumer
> rights in ways that limit the expression of their human rights.
> 
> One of the primary reasons that civil society organisations in many
> parts of the world are not working in this important area is because of
> the often (in my opinion) immobilising debate on market vs. state roles
> and responsibilities.
> 
> We tend to work on macro policy issues (which are important) and then
> (particularly in developing countries) we are not active in how these
> policies translate into day to day experience of users.
> 
> Surely there is general consensus that the role of the state
> (regulators) is to ensure that market structure is open, with low entry
> barriers for small players, competitive, ensure accountability by
> providers to consumers.. and so on.  There will be nuts and bolts issues
> to argue about, e.g. licensing fees, universal access funds, state
> supported public access, incentives/barriers for foreign investors,
> equity issues, local language and content quotas and so on.
> 
> Am I wrong in feeling that we are, in a manner of speaking, scratching
> the surface with ideological discussions and not delving into detail
> enough?
> 
> Anriette
> 
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From cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 30 12:02:19 2009
From: cogitoergosum at sbcglobal.net (Eric Dierker)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:02:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [governance] Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers
In-Reply-To: <4B13184F.8060000@itforchange.net>
Message-ID: <613331.98001.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

In some small way, many of us welcome such action.  Courts are slow. The only opinions in western jurisprudence that carry the weight of precedence or guidance are Appellate Court opinions.  For most we need more guidance and interpretation of the law  -- a larger case law body of interpretation and application.  While the few may suffer, some will bring these issues up through the expensive and time consuming Appellate process where we can begin to get some clearer picture of where we are headed, based upon where we have been.  As the 2 % or so of these work their way up, watch for most of those to be resolved prior to opinions that could possibly hurt the industrial side of the equation.

--- On Mon, 11/30/09, Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:


From: Parminder <parminder at itforchange.net>
Subject: [governance] Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers
To: "'governance at lists.cpsr.org'" <governance at lists.cpsr.org>
Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 12:56 AM


Private policing..... Shows the kind of global policy issues and frameworks that are at stake. Parminder 


Page last updated at 13:54 GMT, Friday, 27 November 2009 
E-mail this to a friend     Printable version 
Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers 
By Jonathan Fildes 
Technology reporter, BBC News 

Ethernet cable 
Software is used to track down the suspected pirates 

Around 15,000 suspected pirates may soon get legal letters accusing them of illegally sharing movies and games. 

ACS:Law plans to send notes to the accused in the new year offering a chance to settle out of court for "several hundreds of pounds". 

A lawyer who has defended people who have received similar letters described it as a "scattergun approach" that would catch "innocent people". 

ACS:Law said it was "unaware" of anyone who had been wrongly sent a letter. 

Andrew Crossley of the firm told BBC News it was acting to "eradicate" sharing of its client's products. 

"We give them opportunity to enter into compromise right at the start to avoid having to deal with it [in court]," said Mr Crossley. 

If it went to court and the lawyers were successful, he said, damages "would run into several thousands of pounds". 

But consumer group Which? said that it had heard from around 150 consumers who had been "wrongly accused" in similar cases. 

"A lot are accused of downloading pornography," Jaclyn Clarabut of Which? told BBC News. "People find it distressing or embarrassing and pay up." 

Others, she said, "don't want the threat of court action" hanging over them or cannot afford to pay for a lawyer and settle the claim for the lower figure. 
   We estimate that commencing in the New Year we will be despatching circa 15,000 letters in relation to these two orders 
Andrew Crossley 

She said that based on previous experience, "a lot of people will be surprised" by the latest wave of letters. 

Michael Coyle, lawyer at Southampton based firm Lawdit, described the scheme as "having very little to do with protecting the rights of the copyright holder". 

Instead, he said, it was "more to do with making money from alleging copyright infringements on a massive scale". 

He has represented several hundred clients who have received letters from ACS: Law and other firms. None of his clients has ever been forced by a court to pay a fine, he said, although some clients had decided to settle out of court. 

"This scattergun approach to the file sharing litigation will inevitably result in a large number of innocent parties being issued with a claim for copyright infringement." 

ACS: Law are "currently under investigation" by the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA), but a spokesperson said it could not divulge any more details about the nature of the complaints. The Law Society has also received complaints. 

Mr Crossley said his firm had been targeted by an "internet campaign" and was cooperating with the inquiries. 

"It doesn't of itself indicate that I have done anything wrong," he said. "I have no qualms or concerns about what I am doing." 

Data harvest 

ACS: Law recently obtained two High Court orders that require ISPs to hand over the names and addresses of the account holders for 30,000 IP addresses, a number which can identify a computer on the internet. It is currently preparing three more. 

The orders were obtained on behalf of two German clients: DigiProtect and MediaCat. 
Mouse and keyboard 
Which? say innocent people have been caught out in similar cases 

Both firms are licensees of copyright work. They act on behalf of copyright holders, including various pornography studios, to pursue alleged copyright infringements. 

They use software to monitor file sharing networks to harvest IP addresses which are then turned over to law firms to get account details. 

"We state that they [the alleged file-sharers] have made available to others via peer-to-peer file-sharing networks various products that they have rights in," said Mr Crossley. 

He said these included "games, films and music". 

"We estimate that commencing in the New Year we will be despatching circa 15,000 letters in relation to these two orders," he said. 

The letters would be used to tell the alleged "file-sharer" that they were thought to have infringed copyright. 

It would also inform recipients that a claim may be made against them in court and would "invite" them "to enter into a compromise to avoid any litigation." 

The amount would vary, he said, but was typically £300-500. 

The money is split between the copyright holder, licensee, the firm monitoring IP addresses and ACS: Law, which operates on a no win, no fee basis. 

'Spoof' address 

Concerns have been raised about the technology used to identify IP addresses. 

Which? has highlighted various examples of innocent people accused by firms such as DigiProtect . 

"Many have never heard of peer-to-peer file sharing," said Ms Clarabut. 
   ILLEGAL FILE-SHARING 
File-sharing is not illegal. It only becomes illegal when users are sharing content, such as music, that is protected by copyrights 
The crackdown will be aimed at people who regularly use technologies, such as BitTorrent, and websites, such as The Pirate Bay, to find and download files 
There are plenty of legitimate services which use file-sharing technology such as some on-demand TV services 

Q&A: Disconnecting file-sharers 

"Some are accused of downloading video games but never played a game in their life." 

A study published in 2008 by Which? highlighted the case of Scottish couple Gill and Ken Murdoch, aged 54 and 66, who were accused of sharing a video game. 

At the time, Mrs Murdoch told Which?: "We do not have, and have never had, any computer game or sharing software." 

The letters were sent by another law firm, which no longer represents DigiProtect. Mr Crossley said the Murdochs had been identified because the ISP gave the lawyers the wrong information about the account. 

Mr Crossley admitted the account holder may not be the person sharing files illegally. As a result, he said, the letter, would also invite the recipient to name the person they thought was responsible. 

The growing popularity of wi-fi means many people share an internet connection. Recent studies have also shown that many people do not password protect their wi-fi connections, meaning they can be hijacked and used for nefarious means. 

In addition, technology exists that can hide or "spoof" an IP address. 

Mr Crossley said that "spoofing" did not apply for file sharing purposes. 

Expert analysis 

Mr Coyle said he also had reservations about the methods used to identify people and said they had never been challenged in court by experts. 

"The last thing they want is this software being examined in a court of Law - it would shoot the goose that lays the Golden Egg," he said. 

No court case has ever been fully decided from a letter sent by ACS: Law, he said. 

Although Mr Crossley admitted the software had never been analysed in court, he denied it had never been scrutinised. 

"Every application submitted to court is supported by an expert report," he said. 

The report was compiled by "an independent expert" and confirmed that the "data being collected is accurate". 

"That is the starting point for us," said Mr Crossley. "It is very important for us to be accurate. If it is not, everything that comes from that data must be flawed." 

Similar concerns are currently being outlined to the UK government which recently outlined how it plans to tackle illegal file-sharers. 

The Digital Economy bill recently had its first reading and includes a plan to disconnect persistent offenders. 
BBC News - Lawyers target thousands of 'illegal' file-sharers (29 November 2009) 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8381097.stm 





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