[governance] Rights in IG research

[jlfullsack]

Dear Parminder

Once more I'm pleased to tell you I couldn't agree more with your statements 
and comments, this time about Right to Development.
Just two additionnal suggestions :

Right to Development should also apply to the ITU, since one of it's main 
(and in my view the most important) organ is precisely the Telecommunication 
Development Bureau (ITU-D). Il this regard there is a lot to do and some 
"cultural revolution" to undertake in this venerable house. Just remember 
the WSIS commitment in developing ITC resources in DCs through its Action 
Plan, where the ITU takes a leading role as a coordinator for the Action 
lines concerned.

Second, Right to Development should be introduced in WSIS follow-up process 
as a substancial part of Ethics and be dealt with accordingly to its 
importance, not only in Action line C10.

I do agree that these aspects are not directly linked to IGF activities, but 
as far as "governance" is concerned RtD is to be included.

Friendliest regards
Jean-Louis Fullsack
CSDPTT-France

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Parminder" <parminder at itforchange.net>
To: <governance at lists.cpsr.org>; "'Milton L Mueller'" <mueller at syr.edu>; 
"'Avri Doria'" <avri at psg.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:55 AM
Subject: RE: [governance] Rights in IG research


>
>
> Milton
>
>> * The problem with a so-called "right to development" is that a "right"
>> implies an actionable claim against a specific party, who is obligated
>> to provide or protect the right. Who do you make this claim against?
>
> Lets go in two steps to reach right to development (a collective right) 
> from
> the 'negative rights' you subscribe to, through the category of 'positive
> rights'. First, tell me if you think 'right to education' as mention in 
> the
> UDHR, and as applied in many developed countries justifying imprisonment 
> of
> parents etc is considered by you as a (real) 'right' or not.
>
> The second step to move towards 'right to development' is to look at 
> another
> collective right - collective cultural rights - which all countries (not
> only developing ones) other than the US have agreed to, most recently in
> signing the UNESCO convention on cultural diversity. This treaty to quote 
> a
> text "fills an existing lacuna for cultural objectives in public
> international law and to serve as a cultural counterbalance to the World
> Trade Organization (WTO) in future conflicts between trade and culture."
>
>
> What you mention is a caricature of the right to development (RTD). Right 
> to
> development (among a few other things) is a moral assertion - seeking
> insituional/legal applications - that default global institutional systems
> (as use of FoE for cultural domination, in above case) that are deemed
> neutral and good for all are often a form of (neo-imperialist?) domination
> and that that developing countries have a right to challenge such
> domination. If you read the Right to development document you will find
> references to a 'new economic order' a couple of time. (a non-hegemonisitc
> 'new Internet order' may be similarly demanded.)
>
>
> Since you have agreed in an earlier email that 'notions of rights are
> ideologically conditioned' I must give practical uses of the RTD to 
> justify
> it. Since you claim that "I just don't think the concept makes any sense 
> or
> that its assertion accomplishes anything".
>
> The framework of RTD underpins efforts in global polity on development
> agendas in WTO, WIPO, NWICO, and why not, claims of perhaps a 'new 
> Internet
> order'. This claims and subsequent 'victories' have been immensely useful 
> to
> the people of developing countries.
>
> Now if you think RTD is a part of "rights-inflation and sloppy thinking
> about what constitutes basic human rights is really damaging to the
> realization of real human rights", it is as per your above quoted 
> assertion
> "ideologically condition" in a way different than I am "ideologically
> conditioned" and therefore I should not debate it any further. But use of
> words like 'real rights' is against ideological relativism you spoke of.
>
> If
>> my economy does not develop, who do I sue? What tangible party is fully
>> capable of delivering "development" on demand? The UN General Assembly,
>> which declared it? (hah!)
>
>
> To make an illustrative, counterpoint, which tangible party is fully 
> capable
> of delivering 'full bodily security' on demand???
>
>
> Parminder
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Milton L Mueller [mailto:mueller at syr.edu]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 3:40 AM
>> To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; Avri Doria
>> Subject: RE: [governance] Rights in IG research
>>
>> Avri, thanks for pondering it.
>> Just to recall what my objection is, and it's important to be clear
>> about this:
>>
>> * The problem with a so-called "right to development" is that a "right"
>> implies an actionable claim against a specific party, who is obligated
>> to provide or protect the right. Who do you make this claim against? If
>> my economy does not develop, who do I sue? What tangible party is fully
>> capable of delivering "development" on demand? The UN General Assembly,
>> which declared it? (hah!)
>>
>> * One could meaningfully assert a negative right, a right not to have
>> other companies, individuals or nations interfere with their economic
>> activity in ways that violate or impair their development. But this is
>> an extension of other basic rights, such as property rights (i.e., theft
>> of resources) or rights to be free from violence (i.e, invasion, coups
>> d'etat, etc.). In such cases, it is very clear who the right is claimed
>> against and who it constrains or obligates.
>>
>> So, please do not think that by denying the existence of a "right to
>> development" I am unconcerned about the need for economic and social
>> development in LDCs or elsewhere. I just don't think the concept makes
>> any sense or that its assertion accomplishes anything.
>>
>> Milton Mueller
>> Professor, Syracuse University School of Information Studies
>> XS4All Professor, Delft University of Technology
>> ------------------------------
>> Internet Governance Project:
>> http://internetgovernance.org
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri at psg.com]
>> > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:28 PM
>> > To: Governance List
>> > Subject: Re: [governance] Rights in IG research
>> >
>> > <probably an irrelevant aside>
>> >
>> > On 18 Aug 2008, at 13:55, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>> >
>> > > Parminder and I had a long debate about
>> > > the "right to development," which I consider a paradigmatic
>> > instance
>> > > of
>> > > the manufacture of an incoherent right. Not possible to recap that
>> > > debate here, and I know I am challenging conventional sentiment
>> > > among CS
>> > > types, but I'm not backing down because i think rights-inflation and
>> > > sloppy thinking about what constitutes basic human rights is really
>> > > damaging to the realization of real human rights.
>> >
>> >
>> > ever since that discussion (where i sort of sided with Parminder) i
>> > have been trying to work my way through the issue, though, i must
>> > confess,  from a philosophical point of view.
>> >
>> > being somewhat slow, i have not gotten very far, but have
>> > gotten to a
>> > point  where i think that we fall into a problem between the
>> > notion of
>> > basic human rights and those that are derivative from other
>> > the basic
>> > human rights.
>> >
>> > i am not sure which are which yet, at least not from a strict
>> > philosophical analysis, but from a pragmatic/political point of view
>> > anything defined in UDHR can be called basic as it
>> > constitutes agreed
>> > language that the signatories can be held to (of course taking into
>> > account the get out of rights trump clause - 29).
>> >
>> > this does not mean that those that are not in UDHR are not as
>> > important, more immediately accessible or perhaps the way to
>> > achieving
>> > the basic rights, but they are not basic indisputable rights.
>> >
>> >
>> > a.
>> >
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________________
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>
>
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