[governance] Taking down a site [was: beijing ticket scam]

[Rui Correia]

Dear Milton

For starters, I am a "he" and not a "she".

Then, I would appreciate if you would debate the issue as academically
or otherwise as possible, without according yourself the right to
presume to know me, that you know things about me and impute unto me
qualities that you have decided I have, based on this email
discussion. If you want to compare yourself to the Chinese, please go
ahead, but kindly leave everyone else on the list off your ad hominem
reasoning.

I wrote from the premises that this kind of content is ILLEGAL and
therefore a CRIME, just like child pornography. If it is not, then so
be it.

As for your comments about "appropriation of human rights terminology
by people who clearly just don't understand the moral, political and
philosophical basis of free expression", perhaps you might consider an
apology to the list. I don't know who you might be referring to, but
perhas you might want to clarify that, as - as it stands - it could
refer to me, any other who responded on this email, the Chinese, who
knows who else. Indeed bizarre and disturbing.

Best regards,

Rui


On 06/08/2008, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Lisa Horner [mailto:lisa at global-partners.co.uk]
>  >
>  > Echoing Ian, I wonder if it would be worth filing a complaint with the
>  > South African Human Rights Commission?  The SA bill of rights states
>  that
>  > freedom of expression doesn't extend to "advocacy of hatred that is
>  based
>  > on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes
>  incitement to
>  > cause harm." Is this supported by any other legislation in SA?
>
>
> Lisa:
>  As Rui herself said, the site does not contain incitement to harm. It's
>  political speech: an old and defeated racist party publicizing its
>  views, which of course are pretty stupid.
>
>  I'm sorry but I don't see anything here but an attempt to suppress
>  expression that you don't like. The problem with the website is just
>  that she, and you, disagree with it and find it offensive.
>
>  Let's be honest about this.
>
>  Rui:
>
> > I am personally a defender of freedom of expression. However, like any
>  > other right, the right to freedom of expression has limitations, such
>
>
> How many times have I heard this? Exactly what the Chinese state and
>  everyone else interested in censorship says. They all "support freedom
>  of expression," except when someone says something they feel threatened
>  by or strongly disagree with.
>
>  That kind of "support" is worthless.
>
>  The underlying message is clear: you are saying "if I don't agree with
>  what you say, I have the right to use force to suppress you." From that
>  point on it's just a political competition to see who or what gets
>  suppressed. I don't see any difference in principle between this and the
>  attempts of, e.g., Islamic fanatics to kill Salman Rushdie or Ayaan
>  Hirsi Ali for their heresies. Insulting the prophet or criticizing Islam
>  is, in their world view, just as reprehensible as racism is to you.
>  Perhaps even more so.
>
>  What's bizarre and disturbing about this is the appropriation of "human
>  rights" terminology by people who clearly just don't understand the
>  moral, political and philosophical basis of free expression.
>
>  At least when radical Islamists or Chinese authoritarians suppress
>  speech, they don't say they are doing it in the name of "human rights."
>  This misappropriation is far more dangerous than a clear authoritarian,
>  because at least you know what the dictators are up to.
>
>


-- 
________________________________________________


Rui Correia
Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Consultant
2 Cutten St
Horison
Roodepoort-Johannesburg,
South Africa
Tel/ Fax (+27-11) 766-4336
Mobile (+27) (0) 84-498-6838
_______________
áâãçéêíóôõúç
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     governance at lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     governance-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance