[bestbits] Net Neutrality - summary of FCC new rules

Seth Johnson seth.p.johnson at gmail.com
Wed Mar 4 13:12:33 EST 2015 

I guess you've just corroborated what I've already found regarding the
WTO.  I'm not going to find anything any closer to the point than what
you've pointed at from them, so I am now pretty sure 1) There's no
real doc at WTO that deals with the crucial distinction of telecom
service and information service regarding the Internet, and in fact
they just reflect the ISIC, and 2) I can keep looking at other areas
of the overall picture regarding the Info Society project in general,
not WTO.  Thanks, I was a little concerned and wanted to reconfirm I
guess.


Seth

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Seth Johnson <seth.p.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at consensus.pro> wrote:
>> Dear Seth, Inline:
>>
>> On 4 Mar 2015, at 18:32, Seth Johnson <seth.p.johnson at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at consensus.pro> wrote:
>>>> Dear Seth and others,
>>>>
>>>> With respect to the last sentence, WTO obligations are intentionally designed to be technology neutral; otherwise, trade commitments would be out-of-date the moment they were made.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, a lot of that going around these days.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It is widely understood that the Internet, and many activities that take place upon it as services, are covered by existing commitments.
>>>>
>>>> I recommend the writings of Hosuk Lee-Makiyama, perhaps the most widely recognised expert in digital trade worldwide, many of which can be found here: http://www.ecipe.org/browse/?subj_subject=41&subj_category=ecipepublications&subj_year=&subj_order=recent
>>>>
>>>> As to classical definitions, the Telecom Reference Paper is probably your best source, see here: https://www.wto.org/english/Tratop_e/serv_e/telecom_e/tel23_e.htm
>>>>
>>>> I suspect you'll find that despite its age, the reference paper has stood the tests of time quite well.
>>>
>>> Not a word about information services at that link.
>>
>> For that you should look at GATS: Here's the main page:https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/serv_e/serv_e.htm
>>
>> You'll quickly see there are a few places to look. Beware, once you get in you'll find it hard to get back out again (meaning, it is very interesting) - and you'll also find there's a great deal of coverage of the Internet in GATS, especially the commitments of member-states.
>
>
> Oh geesh.  I sure am aware they're doing a lot on "services."  They
> are "information" services only by dint of the fact they're built on
> the ISIC and its broad "information and communications" category.  But
> the key distinction between information services and
> telecommunications they don't have any sort of clue on.  Internet is
> just a subcategory of telecom for them, an i&c like any other, dealing
> with transmission of data like telecom in general, and not
> distinguished as an info service from telecom.
>
>
>>> But you may be doing the best so far.  You're providing what I'm
>>> guessing, coming from you, are apparently definitive cites in the
>>> topic area at WTO, what one who wants to look at this question of what
>>> the WTO's actually doing in relation to these terms and the Internet,
>>> needs to reference.  Based on that link, not much.  I think I came
>>> across that page while looking into the Technical Barriers to Trade
>>> Agreement.
>>
>> As to what's going on at WTO related to the Internet, that's a different question and complex. The most interesting recent development that's public is this USG proposal, but there's a lot more going on bilaterally, and in the TiSA negotiations... On CircleID you can find a post from me on the latter that should be useful for context. As to the former, it is attached...
>
>
> Yeah I track the US pretty closely.  When I look at that you may hear from me.
>
>
> Seth
>
>
>>> Haven't looked at Lee-Makiyama yet.
>>
>> He's brilliant - and a really great fellow to boot (even though we sometimes disagree on substance! :)
>>
>>>
>>> Seth
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4 Mar 2015, at 17:49, Seth Johnson <seth.p.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That looks like ISIC.  Thanks.  I'm solid on what the terms mean re
>>>>> the Internet and the US telecom policy, just looking for what "the
>>>>> source" is at WTO so I can address what WTO's doing on their terms.
>>>>> It doesn't seem that there's really a subject-specific cite because
>>>>> WTO doesn't really deal with what these terms mean for the Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Jean-Jacques Sahel
>>>>> <jean-jacques.sahel at icann.org> wrote:
>>>>>> See this WTO December 2014 update on methodology regarding trade statistics: http://webservices.wto.org/resources/meta/def_method_e.pdf and in particular:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (i) communications services includes telecommunications, postal and courier services. Telecommunications services encompasses the transmission of sound, images or other information by telephone, telex, telegram, radio and television cable and broadcasting, satellite, electronic mail, facsimile services etc., including business network services, teleconferencing and support services. It does not include the value of the information transported. Also included are cellular telephone services, Internet backbone services and on-line access services, including provision of access to the Internet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [..] (v) computer and information services is subdivided into computer services (hardware and software related services and data processing services), news agency services    (provision of news, photographs, and feature articles to the media), and other information provision services (database services and web search portals)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net [mailto:bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net] On Behalf Of Seth Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: 04 March 2015 16:12
>>>>>> To: Nick Ashton-Hart
>>>>>> Cc: Eduardo Bertoni; Marilia Maciel; &lt,bestbits at lists.bestbits.net&gt,
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [bestbits] Net Neutrality - summary of FCC new rules
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where should I look for those definitions at WTO - information service vs telecommunication service?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use the ISIC.  But that's a breakdown of industries, not of those two categories.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not here:
>>>>>> https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/glossary_e/glossary_e.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or here (telecom, but not info service):
>>>>>> http://wtoterm.wto.org/multiterm/index.mto?locale=en
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Nick Ashton-Hart <nashton at consensus.pro> wrote:
>>>>>>> These are all well-defined terms in the WTO agreement. Whatever you
>>>>>>> may think of trade policy, it would be wise at least to consider
>>>>>>> carefully these terms in the context of those definitions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4 Mar 2015, at 15:44, Eduardo Bertoni <ebertoni at alumni.gwu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Marilia,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing this. I begun working on a short piece in Spanish
>>>>>>> with similar goals: explain the impact of the new rules. The FGV
>>>>>>> document is more than welcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the time being, my humble suggestion is this: for many people it
>>>>>>> is not clear the difference between "information services" and
>>>>>>> "telecommunications services". So I would suggest to explain that
>>>>>>> difference. The concept of "common carrier" might help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eduardo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Marilia Maciel
>>>>>>> <mariliamaciel at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The researchers from the Center for Technology and Society of FGV in
>>>>>>>> Rio de Janeiro have prepared a concise summary of FCC new rules that
>>>>>>>> might be useful. The communities in Brazil are very focused on the NN
>>>>>>>> debate since we engaged in a public consultation to further regulate
>>>>>>>> the net neutrality principle enshrined in the Brazilian Civil Rights
>>>>>>>> Framework for the Internet (Marco Civil).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The document will be updated as more information is made available.
>>>>>>>> Comments and suggestions are more than welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12RPZvyWKWxQwg116H8L8hjsoNZqsxEjwF
>>>>>>>> 7KBfF-gjqo/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>> CTS/FGV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Marília Maciel
>>>>>>>> Pesquisadora Gestora - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - FGV Direito
>>>>>>>> Rio Researcher and Coordinator - Center for Technology & Society -
>>>>>>>> FGV Law School http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DiploFoundation associate - www.diplomacy.edu PoliTICs Magazine
>>>>>>>> Advisory Committee - http://www.politics.org.br/ Subscribe "Digital
>>>>>>>> Rights: Latin America & the Caribbean" -
>>>>>>>> http://www.digitalrightslac.net/en
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>
>>

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