[bestbits] [governance] Whose lives are we helping, anyway? WAS Re: Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony of "Connecting the Dots Conference"

Mon Mar 9 16:01:53 EDT 2015

Hi George,

While I agree with where you are going with the below and I'll respond
inline, anyone who doesn't think that words matter need only look at the
effect of the US Supreme Court in re-interpreting, (in Citizens United)
what was it, three words in the First Amendment to the US Constitution,
which evidently has had the effect of turning what was a haltingly
functioning democracy into a more or less completely dysfunctional
oligarchy. But I guess that anyone who could or would learn from this
discussion has already done so and yes, we should probably push on...

-----Original Message-----
From: bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net
[mailto:bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net] On Behalf Of George Sadowsky
Sent: March 9, 2015 11:50 AM
To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; gurstein michael
Cc: bestbits at lists.bestbits.net
Subject: Re: [bestbits] [governance] Whose lives are we helping, anyway? WAS
Re: Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony of "Connecting the Dots Conference"

Mike,

I think that it would be more productive to talk about tangible goals that
people can recognize as useful in their daily lives, and how to achieve
those goals.  If we can agree upon those goals, then we might shift to
talking about the best means to achieve them.

[MG] I agree

Let me be blunt, Mike.  You are a friend and colleague, and I believe that
you will take what I say in a constructive manner.  For the purposes of this
discussion, I couldn't care less whether you agree or disagree with any part
of the Sao Paulo statement.  I care more about whether you and I agree on
goals for progressing the value of the Internet to humanity so that we can
then make the transition to talking about how best to achieve them  --  and
then, I hope, working to achieve them.  I mean implementation, and I know
that you are no stranger to that.

[MG] agree again

However, if you really want to work toward philosophical and political
convergence and get unanimous agreement on the meaning of words as related
to the anatomy of political systems, then you will spend another ten years
on this list repeating the last ten years of discussion, and anyone really
involved in development results will cease to take this discussion seriously
if they have not already done so.  Since these lists permit freedom of
expression, it's your call.

[MG] agree again... a trifecta...now where to :)

Mike

George 

On Mar 9, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Michael Gurstein < <mailto:gurstein at gmail.com>
gurstein at gmail.com> wrote:

> (This was drafted before I read George's most recent note and I agree 

> that the discussion, hopefully revealing to some, is now getting 

> somewhat repetitious and addressing the questions George poses might 

> be a worthwhile exercise...

> 

> Nick (and George), you may believe this discussion is just about words 

> but clearly the USG and it's allies with their "redline" position 

> against democracy in Internet Governance, think differently. (If it was
just "words"

> why threaten to walk out if "democracy" is included.)  BTW, show of

> (digital) hands here, how many people think that this discussion is 

> just about "words"?

> 

> I'm quite prepared to agree to the statement from the NM if only I 

> could understand it... It seems to me that in the crafting of diplo 

> speak they have squared circles and put horns on horses and created 

> unicorns but I'll suspend final judgement until someone does an 

> explication and makes some elaboration on what this formulation might look
like in practice.

> 

> Re: your point about a major objective for the original WSIS was 

> ensuring that the Internet was accessible to and usable by and for the 

> benefit of all (which has now been largely forgotten by the MSists).  

> You may recall my noting that a major failing of the Brazil Net 

> Mundial was its failure to address these issues in any significant way 

> and I attributed this to their failure to in fact be effectively 

> multi-stakeholder i.e. they overlooked (or perhaps systematically 

> excluded) the primary stakeholders in this area, the rural and 

> marginalized populations (and those such as Community Informatics

> folks) who work with these populations and on their behalf.

> 

> Re: WB's rather bizarre characterization of this conversation as 

> "bizarre", perhaps this could be explained by the fact that he is 

> evidently the official spokesperson for the  1% WEF ++"s attempted 

> insertion into Internet Governance on behalf of the MSists through the
NMI.

> 

> M

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From:  <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org

> [ <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Nick 

> Ashton-Hart

> Sent: March 9, 2015 9:12 AM

> To: Governance; Wolfgang Kleinwächter

> Cc: Norbert Bollow;  <mailto:wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at>
wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at; 

>  <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net> bestbits at lists.bestbits.net

> Subject: [governance] Whose lives are we helping, anyway? WAS Re: 

> [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony of "Connecting the Dots
Conference"

> 

> 

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> 

> A wise intervention. Even if people don't agree with NMI I think that 

> langu= age is excellent.

> 

> On a larger point, I have to ask - plead, really - for everyone to ask 

> your=

> self: the source of all of IG is WSIS, which was intended to make 

> people's = lives better and close the digital divide etc. Is all this 

> hostility over t= he form of words at one meeting leading anywhere on that
continuum?

> 

> This is the year when it is possible to connect WSIS' targets with 

> achievin= g the SDGs - and in doing so become a part of something 

> bigger than WSIS, a= nd bigger than technology.=20

> 

> I beg you all - think about the bigger picture. I have seen a great 

> deal of= arguing over words but almost no debate about how to ensure 

> the next decad= e of WSIS is more focussed on improving the lives of 

> real people and truly = bridging the digital divide - in every sense of
the word.

> 

> As someone who sits through international meetings across silos, from 

> trade= , to IG to human rights to development - IG discussions are the 

> furthest aw= ay from actually benefiting any real people's lives.=20

> 

> I would love to someday be able to say the opposite is true. I dearly 

> hope = it is this year - otherwise, a once-in-a-decade opportunity is
lost.

> 

> On 9 Mar 2015, at 16:05, Kleinw=E4chter, Wolfgang 

> < <mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter at m=%20edienkomm.uni-halle.de>
wolfgang.kleinwaechter at m= edienkomm.uni-halle.de> wrote:

> 

>> Hi

>> =20

>> I propose that all discussant agree now - after this bizarre 

>> wortdsmithin=

> g discussion - on Principle 9.1 of the Sao Paulo Declaration which states:

>> =20

>> 9.INTERNET GOVERNANCE PROCESS PRINCIPLES: 9.1 Multistakeholder: 

>> Internet =

> governance should be built on democratic, multistakeholder processes, 

> ensur= ing the meaningful and accountable participation of all 

> stakeholders, inclu= ding governments, the private sector, civil 

> society, the technical communit= y, the academic community and users. 

> The respective roles and responsibilit= ies of stakeholders should be 

> interpreted in a flexible manner with referen= ce to the issue under 

> discussion.=20

>> =20

>> =20

>> It would be good if those CS Groups who had some reservations in Sao 

>> Paul=

> o rejoin now the NetMundial Initiative and contribute to the 

> implementation= of 9.1.

>> =20

>> Wolfgang

>> =20

>> =20

>> =20

>> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----

>> Von:  <mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org im Auftrag von Norbert 

>> Bollow

>> Gesendet: Mo 09.03.2015 15:40

>> An:  <mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Benedek, Wolfgang 

>> ( <mailto:wolfgang.benedek at un> wolfgang.benedek at un=

> i-graz.at)

>> Cc:  <mailto:bestbits at lists.bestbits.net> bestbits at lists.bestbits.net

>> Betreff: Re: [governance] [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing 

>> Ceremony o=

> f "Connecting the Dots Conference"

>> =20

>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 12:12:42 +0100

>> "Benedek, Wolfgang ( <mailto:wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at>
wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at)"

>> < <mailto:wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at> wolfgang.benedek at uni-graz.at>
wrote:

>> =20

>>> on the issue of democracy in international instruments like the UDHR 

>>> and the ICCPR, it should be noted that democracy is neither used in 

>>> Article 21 of the Universal Declaration nor in Article 25 of the 

>>> ICCPR, which speak of participation in government of one's country, 

>>> periodic elections etc

>> =20

>> Yes, indeed. Where the principle of democracy is referred to in 

>> relation to governments, in those texts the word "democracy" is not 

>> used, but instead a very very central aspect of makes a society and 

>> its government democratic is spelled out explicitly.

>> =20

>>> The limitation clause in Article 29 UDHR states that rights can be 

>>> restricted for the sake of the general welfare in a democratic 

>>> society. As the UDHR is not a binding convention there is no 

>>> authoritative interpretation of this phrase by an international 

>>> human rights body to my knowledge.

>> =20

>> Actually the phrase, with some variations (in which the word 

>> "democratic" occurs in a similar construction, and I would say, 

>> certainly with the same meaning) is also in binding human rights 

>> instruments. In particular, here are some references: ICCPR, Art. 14, 

>> Art. 21, Art. 22. ICESCR, Art. 4.

>> =20

>> Greetings,

>> Norbert

>> =20

>>> However, in the context of the European Convention on Human Rights, 

>>> the European Court of Human Rights regularly requires a "pressing 

>>> social need" for restrictions which are possible based on the 

>>> similar limitation clause "necessary in a democratic society". More 

>>> and examples in my book with Matthias Kettemann on Freedom of 

>>> Expression and the Internet, Council of Europe 2014.

>>> =20

>>> Wolfgang Benedek

>>> =20

>>> =20

>>> =20

>>> =20

>>> =20

>>> =20

>>> Am 09.03.15 11:54 schrieb "Norbert Bollow" unter < <mailto:nb at bollow.ch>
nb at bollow.ch>:

>>> =20

>>>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 16:16:17 +0800

>>>> David Cake < <mailto:dave at difference.com.au> dave at difference.com.au>
wrote:

>>>> =20

>>>>> Jeremy claims that if the inclusion of the term in descriptions of 

>>>>> mutti-stakeholder bodies means anything concrete, it means 

>>>>> retaining a special role for government (in, presumably, all 

>>>>> situations, not just those areas like law enforcement that 

>>>>> governments have a special role intrinsically by law). JNC denies 

>>>>> that interpretation - so please, what IS your interpretation of 

>>>>> what the term democratic in the context you discuss would mean.

>>>> =20

>>>> I hereby assure you that JNC has every intention of publishing a 

>>>> position paper which will address this in some depth. I will post 

>>>> about this when it is available.

>>>> =20

>>>> In the meantime, you and/or others might be interested in 

>>>> reflecting on what is the precise meaning of the word "democratic" 

>>>> in the context of the very interesting way in which this word is 

>>>> used in Article 29 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

>>>> =20

>>>> Greetings,

>>>> Norbert

>>>> co-convenor, Just Net Coalition (JNC)   <http://JustNetCoalition.org>
http://JustNetCoalition.org

>>>> =20

>>> =20

>>> =20

>> =20

>> =20

>> =20

>> =20

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