[bestbits] [governance] Re: NMI and the Brazilian CGI.br

Sun Nov 23 15:22:57 EST 2014

BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to reply to this rather minimal set of questions/comments... They were originally addressed to Carlos Afonso but anyone supporting the NMI might want to provide a response.

M

-----Original Message-----
From: michael gurstein [mailto:gurstein at gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 3:59 AM
To: 'Carlos Afonso'; 'Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Journal'; 'governance at lists.igcaucus.org'
Cc: 'Parminder Singh'; 'Hartmut Richard Glaser'; 'Best Bits'
Subject: RE: [bestbits] [governance] Re: NMI and the Brazilian CGI.br

A "pluralist space" for what exactly?  The lack of any clear answer to that question is what makes a lot of people including myself very uneasy.

Clearly the NMI folks are very concerned to get buy in/legitimation from civil society to the point of making apparent concessions in order to obtain this. 

Precisely what is civil society gaining in return for according this legitimacy?

And contrary to what many have suggested this is very much a zero sum game.  Once accorded, it will be extremely hard if not impossible to withdraw the legitimacy which has been granted.

M

-----Original Message-----
From: bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net [mailto:bestbits-request at lists.bestbits.net] On Behalf Of Carlos Afonso
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 2:36 AM
To: Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Journal; governance at lists.igcaucus.org
Cc: Parminder Singh; Hartmut Richard Glaser; Best Bits
Subject: Re: [bestbits] [governance] Re: NMI and the Brazilian CGI.br

I recalled Lula's visit to WEF for the obvious reason that the arguments used by some CS sectors against his travel to Davos at the time were exactly the same as JNC's today. To complete the horror, in 2010 WEF honored Lula with the Global Statesman award.

I agree with your last phrase -- some of CS are so sanguine about the simple quotation of the "WEF" word that they are disregarding the more strategic questions. Is this initiative going to be a waste of time? 
Maybe. We (CG) are and will be trying hard for it to succeed as a pluralist space.

fraternal regards

--c.a.

On 11/23/14 07:17, Jean-Christophe NOTHIAS I The Global Journal wrote:
> Carlos,
>
> Following what Parminder and Louis wrote, and I am in full agreement 
> with both, but I think every one here makes a difference between Lula 
> accepting very rightfully to come to express his views at Davos, and 
> Lula joining an initiative by a Californian non profit making profit 
> and a Swiss non profit making even more profit. Therefore, I would bet 
> that everyone makes a clear difference between partying with an 
> unclear setting by WEF/ICANN , and its Brazilian companion of 
> misfortune, and an invitation to talk to the global leaders, thanks to 
> a nice room service in Davos.
>
> That being said, I thank Wolfgang for reminding us that NMI is taking 
> our eyes away from more serious concerns -  an evidence that this 
> initiative might be a great deal of waste for civil society asking 
> itself questions (not about the contents) but about the seats.
>
> JC
>
>
>
>
> Le 23 nov. 2014 à 00:46, Carlos Afonso a écrit :
>
>> Dear people,
>>
>> In January 2003, Lula was just starting his first term as president.
>> As usual he went to the World Social Forum where he was met with 
>> massive acclamation. I remember crying like a child to experience in 
>> loco the thousands of people cheering Lula.
>>
>> From Porto Alegre he went to Davos.(*) Yes, that daunting lair of 
>> corporate devils! A group of militants, NGOs and social movements of 
>> course criticized Lula, along the same lines JNC does today as a sort 
>> of scion of its view of political correctness. But other militants, 
>> NGOs and social movements supported Lula's visit to WEF (I was among
>> them) -- our president had to establish dialogue with all sectors, 
>> and there is no one who could say WEF indoctrinated Lula, or that WEF 
>> took the reigns of the government of Brazil. If anything happened, it 
>> would be the other way around.
>>
>> I like to recall this story because it reminds me of the fury of 
>> arguments at the time -- just like we see today the different
>> (adversarial?) camps of civil society nailing each other.
>>
>> fraternal regards
>>
>> --c.a.
>>
>> (*) See, for example, this report:
>> http://www.ictsd.org/bridges-news/biores/news/two-world-forums-debate
>> -globalisation
>>
>> On 11/22/14 21:30, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am greatly disappointed that so many friends in the CGI.Br has 
>>>> now come out to vouchsafe or front for what is basically a WEF and 
>>>> ICANN (basically doing US's bidding) game.
>>>
>>> Disappointed?  My heart bleeds for you, to be sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>> everyone knows WEF to be. Do the Brazilians, who kind of gave the 
>>>> world the World Social Forum, really need to be reminded of the 
>>>> basic lessons with regard to the designs of global domination by a 
>>>> certain economic and political elite, and their impatience with 
>>>> democracy, especially at the global level!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now you call them naïve.   How incredibly patronizing.
>>>
>>> Any so called "democracy" of the sort you seem to want, that 
>>> excludes stakeholders based on any nationality and/or economic 
>>> backgrounds that you dislike, is emphatically not a democracy, but 
>>> merely pure demagoguery.  Makes me glad that you continue to remain 
>>> far, far away from the civil society mainstream thinking on this subject.
>>>
>>>> Again, you are fast expending the political capital that the 
>>>> Brazilian government and CGI.Br has,  something that I find to be 
>>>> such a great loss, and very much hope were not the case. *The 
>>>> global progressive community has consistently  supported you, but 
>>>> this support cannot be taken for
>>>
>>> I admire how you keep attempting to speak for the global progressive 
>>> community, in pushing the regressive agenda that you continue to 
>>> push, and that the majority of the community apparently doesn't share.
>>>
>>>> granted, which is my unfortunate duty to tell you, as you come out 
>>>> publicly to seek global support for a WEF centred global governance
>>>> initiative.*
>>>>
>>>
>>> Your support, and those of the small splinter group of extremists 
>>> that caucus with you? Well, may the good Lord preserve us all from 
>>> such support.
>>>
>>>> Your statement says that you are willing to dialogue and work 
>>>> together with everyone. Some of us from global progressive civil 
>>>> society offer ourselves for such a dialogue. We have in our hands 
>>>> today the interests and fate of the people of the world,  and of 
>>>> the future generations. Let
>>>
>>> That sounds more like a royal "We" than any sort of inclusiveness.
>>>  Do stop trying to speak for civil society at large.  You don't and 
>>> have never represented it all.
>>>
>>> --srs
>>>
>>
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