[bestbits] International civil society letter to Congress to follow up from HRC statement

Wed Jun 12 12:43:45 EDT 2013

HI all,

It feels it is time to take a step back and let Jeremy clean up the
document. Or if he cannot, who can?

C

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Joana Varon <joana at varonferraz.com> wrote:

> I'm ok if we take the paragraph that Kevin and Carol mentioned out and
> leave the last part of the final paragraph:
>
> "We further call on the United States Congress to protect the
> whistleblowers involved in this case and support their efforts to combat
> these kinds of mass violations of the fundamental human rights of American
> and foreign citizens.[9]"
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Joana Varon <joana at varonferraz.com>wrote:
>
>> "So we need others to protect him from US.."
>>
>> then, as International community, we need the US to know we support his
>> protection, isnt it?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Carolina Rossini <
>> carolina.rossini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Joana, I agree with Kevin on this. We need action of the international
>>> community to protect whistleblowers when they break a law in a certain
>>> country when such action in favor of a bigger common good - and actually
>>> public interest.
>>> So we need others to protect him from US...I do not believe anything
>>> else would work in this case.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Kevin Bankston <kbankston at cdt.org>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Understood.  But the audience has changed.  There it was the HRC, where
>>>> your point might have purchase.  But if we are here addressing US
>>>> policymakers, and we are, that's a context where even those who are
>>>> staunchly on our side on the substance have had to condemn what Snowden did
>>>> as a clear violation of the law.
>>>>
>>>>    ____________________________________
>>>> Kevin S. Bankston
>>>> Senior Counsel and Free Expression Director
>>>> Center for Democracy & Technology
>>>> 1634 I St NW, Suite 1100
>>>> Washington, DC 20006
>>>> 202.407.8834 direct
>>>> 202.637.0968 fax
>>>> kbankston at cdt.org
>>>>
>>>> Follow CDT on Twitter at @cendemtech
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Joana Varon <joana at varonferraz.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As I've mentioned in the document:
>>>>
>>>> I believe it is very important to express our concerns about the future
>>>> of the whistleblowers in every single statement we make... I mean, the guy
>>>> is in huge trouble.. all the efforts are welcome and protecting him is also
>>>> part of our main points. That was expressed in a paragraph on our Statement
>>>> to HRC and there were a few organizations that signed our statement to
>>>> HCR particularly because we have mentioned this point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Carolina Rossini <
>>>> carolina.rossini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> + 1 on Kevin's comments
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Kevin Bankston <kbankston at cdt.org>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, used the old best bits list address, now using new one...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Kevin Bankston <kbankston at cdt.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure how bestbits fell out of this thread--I thought
>>>>>> bestbists was going to be the main channel for this discussion--so adding
>>>>>> that list back into cc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition to Carolina, I've also made some small tweaks and one big
>>>>>> comment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tweaks:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Changed "Some US-based Internet companies with global reach also
>>>>>> seem to be *complicit* in these practices" to "participating".  I am
>>>>>> all for calling out "complicity" in cases like, e.g., AT&T's cooperation
>>>>>> with the Bush-era program that operated without court approval (for the
>>>>>> record, I'm one of the attorneys who brought cases against AT&T and the NSA
>>>>>> over that program, while I was at EFF).  But as far as we know now the
>>>>>> companies participating currently are doing so under secret *order* of the
>>>>>> FISA court and even if they had attempted to challenge those orders we
>>>>>> would never know.  So I'm less willing to tar with the "complicity" brush.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Changed "Involved or affected companies *must* publish
>>>>>> statistics" to "must *be allowed to*" publish statistics.  Right now they
>>>>>> are forbidden by law from doing so.  So we should be asking USG to allow
>>>>>> them to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The one big comment, seconding Carolina's: I think that the paragraph
>>>>>> focusing on whistleblowing is a politically dangerous distraction from the
>>>>>> main point.  We had the same discussion in the stopwathing.uscoalition--many people wanted to focus on Snowden--but after a lot of
>>>>>> debate it was agreed that doing so would actually detract from what he is
>>>>>> trying to accomplish.  I think the same is true here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> K
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS CDT will have a blog post up shortly praising the HRC statement
>>>>>> and the Larue report and highlighting for a US audience the global human
>>>>>> rights impact of this issue.
>>>>>>     ____________________________________
>>>>>> Kevin S. Bankston
>>>>>> Senior Counsel and Free Expression Director
>>>>>> Center for Democracy & Technology
>>>>>> 1634 I St NW, Suite 1100
>>>>>> Washington, DC 20006
>>>>>> 202.407.8834 direct
>>>>>> 202.637.0968 fax
>>>>>> kbankston at cdt.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Follow CDT on Twitter at @cendemtech
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Carolina Rossini <
>>>>>> carolina.rossini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just talked to Gene, and we have some new inputs. Edits on the
>>>>>> letter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Joana Varon <joana at varonferraz.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>>> Great job! I'm adding some brackets.. if I might.
>>>>>>> Shall we be delivering this in Tunis, next week? During the Freedom
>>>>>>> Online Coalition meeting.
>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>> joana
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Carolina Rossini <
>>>>>>> carolina.rossini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kevin,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for your inputs. However, do you think there is space to
>>>>>>>> say - besides reforming such law - there was a overreaching of authority ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> C
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Kevin Bankston <kbankston at cdt.org
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By then we might also have responses to Andrew Puddephatt's
>>>>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how best to answer Andrew's questions; FISA is a
>>>>>>>>> complex law.  And to be clear, Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act was an
>>>>>>>>> amendment to FISA's provision for court orders for records; not a separate
>>>>>>>>> law.  And the state secrets privilege is common law; there is no statute
>>>>>>>>> for it.  But I'll do my best!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To read Andrew's question as narrowly as possible so that I can
>>>>>>>>> give a quick answer:  In the context of foreign intelligence and terrorism
>>>>>>>>> investigations, FISA regulates surveillance conducted inside the United
>>>>>>>>> States, and acquisition of records from companies inside the United
>>>>>>>>> States, and surveillance outside of the United States to the extent it
>>>>>>>>> implicates United States person (i.e., citizens and naturalized permanent
>>>>>>>>> residents); there is also the National Security Letter authority which is
>>>>>>>>> an authority for the FBI to obtain records without going through the FISA
>>>>>>>>> Court.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> These authorities directly implicate the privacy of non-Americans
>>>>>>>>> to the extent that 1) non-Americans may reside in the US, 2) non-Americans
>>>>>>>>> communications will transit or be stored in facilities in the US, 3)
>>>>>>>>> records about non-Americans will be stored by companies in the US.
>>>>>>>>>  Finally, it also implicates the privacy of non-Americans to the extent
>>>>>>>>> that it does not at all regulate USG surveillance of non-Americans outside
>>>>>>>>> of America.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FISA is at 18 USC 1801 et seq, in Chapter 36 of our US Code:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/chapter-36
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In most relevant part, Subchapter I deals with individual wiretaps
>>>>>>>>> ("electronic surveillance"), II with secret physical searches, III with pen
>>>>>>>>> registers and trap and trace devices (i.e. surveillance of metadata), IV
>>>>>>>>> with records demands (now referred to as PATRIOT 215 orders since it was
>>>>>>>>> significantly amended by that section of PATRIOT).  Meanwhile, Subchapter
>>>>>>>>> VI--added by the FISA Amendments Act (FAA) in 2008--provided the new and
>>>>>>>>> seriously problematic authority to obtain year long orders authorizing
>>>>>>>>> "programs" of non-individualized surveillance of communications where at
>>>>>>>>> least one party to the communication is outside of the country, while also
>>>>>>>>> allowing without any court authorization the interception of any
>>>>>>>>> foreign-to-foreign communications transiting the US; that is the authority
>>>>>>>>> under which PRISM is being used, as far as we best understand it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Therefore and to be absolutely clear: amendment to these laws--and
>>>>>>>>> especially a narrowing of the FAA--would SUBSTANTIALLY impact the privacy
>>>>>>>>> of every non-American who uses modern communications networks and services,
>>>>>>>>> especially those with facilities in the US.  And the assistance of
>>>>>>>>> international civil society will be critical in any effort to accomplish
>>>>>>>>> such amendments.  So--thank you all for what you've been doing!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>    ____________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Kevin S. Bankston
>>>>>>>>> Senior Counsel and Free Expression Director
>>>>>>>>> Center for Democracy & Technology
>>>>>>>>> 1634 I St NW, Suite 1100
>>>>>>>>> Washington, DC 20006
>>>>>>>>> 202.407.8834 direct
>>>>>>>>> 202.637.0968 fax
>>>>>>>>> kbankston at cdt.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Follow CDT on Twitter at @cendemtech
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 2013, at 10:02 AM, Anriette Esterhuysen <
>>>>>>>>> anriette at apc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  We need a clean copy.. but I am afraid I can't work on it today.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But thanks MIke and others who have given input.  I would be happy
>>>>>>>>> to let Joy and Jeremy clean up and give us a version to send tomorrow or
>>>>>>>>> Friday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By then we might also have responses to Andrew Puddephatt's
>>>>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anriette
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12/06/2013 15:03, michael gurstein wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > I`ve commented as well and also around all day...
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > M
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> > From: webwewant at googlegroups.com [
>>>>>>>>> mailto:webwewant at googlegroups.com <webwewant at googlegroups.com>] On
>>>>>>>>> > Behalf Of Anriette Esterhuysen
>>>>>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 4:28 AM
>>>>>>>>> > Cc: webwewant at googlegroups.com;
>>>>>>>>> irp at lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org
>>>>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [bestbits] International civil society letter to
>>>>>>>>> Congress to
>>>>>>>>> > follow up from HRC statement
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Great work. Thanks Joy and Jeremy . I have made some comments.
>>>>>>>>> Will be
>>>>>>>>> around all day if needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anriette
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12/06/2013 06:01, Jeremy Malcolm wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > This follows on from a telephone call organised by the Web
>>>>>>>>> Foundation
>>>>>>>>> > yesterday, in which APC was asked to coordinate a civil society
>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>> > to the US government from international organisations.  That
>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>> > would follow on from our joint statement to the Human Rights
>>>>>>>>> Council,
>>>>>>>>> > and we would invite Human Rights Watch and Privacy International
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> > participate in drafting.  APC agreed to do this and suggested
>>>>>>>>> > continuing to use Best Bits as the coordinating coalition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > Here is the first rough draft of the text that Joy from APC and
>>>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>>> > begun to put together, which awaits your comments and
>>>>>>>>> improvements:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > http://igcaucus.org:9001/p/your_name_here (sorry for the dumb
>>>>>>>>> URL)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > Although I'm cc'ing the IRP and Web We Want lists, to avoid
>>>>>>>>> > fragmentation of discussions on the text like happened
>>>>>>>>> inadvertently
>>>>>>>>> > last time, can I suggest, if nobody objects, that we centralise
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> > this list, and that if you are not a member you can join at
>>>>>>>>> > http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits.  To bring in
>>>>>>>>> others, you
>>>>>>>>> > can point them towards this list too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>>>> Google Groups
>>>>>>>>> > "Web We Want working group" group.
>>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>>>> it, send an
>>>>>>>>> > email to webwewant+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> anriette esterhuysen anriette at apc.org
>>>>>>>>> executive director, association for progressive communications
>>>>>>>>> www.apc.org
>>>>>>>>> po box 29755, melville 2109
>>>>>>>>> south africa
>>>>>>>>> tel/fax +27 11 726 1692
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>>> Groups "Web We Want working group" group.
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>> send an email to webwewant+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>>> Groups "Web We Want working group" group.
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>> send an email to webwewant+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> *Carolina Rossini*
>>>>>>>> http://carolinarossini.net/
>>>>>>>> + 1 6176979389
>>>>>>>> *carolina.rossini at gmail.com*
>>>>>>>> skype: carolrossini
>>>>>>>> @carolinarossini
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups "Web We Want working group" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>> send an email to webwewant+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joana Varon Ferraz
>>>>>>> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)<http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/>
>>>>>>> @joana_varon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *Carolina Rossini*
>>>>>> http://carolinarossini.net/
>>>>>> + 1 6176979389
>>>>>> *carolina.rossini at gmail.com*
>>>>>> skype: carolrossini
>>>>>> @carolinarossini
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Carolina Rossini*
>>>>> http://carolinarossini.net/
>>>>> + 1 6176979389
>>>>> *carolina.rossini at gmail.com*
>>>>> skype: carolrossini
>>>>> @carolinarossini
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Joana Varon Ferraz
>>>> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)<http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/>
>>>> @joana_varon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Carolina Rossini*
>>> http://carolinarossini.net/
>>> + 1 6176979389
>>> *carolina.rossini at gmail.com*
>>> skype: carolrossini
>>> @carolinarossini
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>>
>> Joana Varon Ferraz
>> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV)<http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/>
>> @joana_varon
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Joana Varon Ferraz
> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade (CTS-FGV) <http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts/>
> @joana_varon
>

-- 
*Carolina Rossini*
http://carolinarossini.net/
+ 1 6176979389
*carolina.rossini at gmail.com*
skype: carolrossini
@carolinarossini
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