<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hi Parminder</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">> What are your sources, in case you can tell us that.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Sure. Last Friday's Q&A. I made a transcript.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><a href="https://isoc.live/pir/PIR_Community_Forum.pdf">https://isoc.live/pir/PIR_Community_Forum.pdf</a><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><p style=""> > As for expert advice, it is not difficult to get the expert advice one wants to get. That is why due processes of accountability beyond expert advice exists.<br><br>As trustees their fiduciary duty was to get the best advice available and act appropriately in the best interest of the organization and sustaining its mission. <br><br>> > 1) they were unlikely to get a higher bid,<br><br>> You have no way to prove that I could not have pulled together a consortium in India that would have paid a higher price. Can you?<br></p><p style="">No I cannot prove that. I don't think there's anything even now to stop you gathering such a consortium and making an offer. There may be penalties if ISOC pulled out of the deal., That's something that has not been disclosed.</p><p style=""> > > 2) an auction could damage PIR both in morale and value. Plus Ethos had said they were not interested in participating in an auction, and it was thought they might just walk away. The decision was made to negotiate.<br></p><p style="">> Why does then ICANN auction gTLDs, and not take expert advice to make secret deals to maximise its reveues? Does its auction process reduce the morale and value of gTLDs or its buyers? I absolutely did not get your logic.</p><p style="font-size:small">Those are not ongoing concerns. Not the same thing at all. Again this was the expert advice from people experienced in such transactions.<br><br></p><p style="font-size:small">It behooves ISOC to get all of its eggs out of one basket in the Interest of the entire Internet Community, not just .org registrants, for whom the sky may not fall.</p><p style="font-size:small">joly</p><p style="font-size:small"><br></p><p style="font-size:small"><br></p><p style="font-size:small"><br></p><p style="font-size:small"><br></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 3:55 AM parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 02/12/19 12:03 AM, Joly MacFie
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hi Mwenda,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">My guess is,
if you were on the ISOC Board you would have done what they
did. Take expert advice <br>
<br>
Apparently there were earlier offers - more than one at least
- but nothing that the ISOC BoT considered remotely
acceptable. Then this offer came in. So, they contemplated an
auction. They took expert advice, The advice was</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Thanks Joly, you seem to know much more than was is publicly
available... What are your sources, in case you can tell us that..<br>
</p>
<p>As for expert advice, it is not difficult to get the expert
advice one wants to get. That is why due processes of
accountability beyond expert advice exists. <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> 1) they were
unlikely to get a higher bid,</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>You have no way to prove that I could not have pulled together a
consortium in India that would have paid a higher price. Can you?
This is especially my right as an ISOC member, when ISOC is
supposed to be a global body. Why then do a sweetheart deal after
some confabulations among US insiders? <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> 2) an
auction could damage PIR both in morale and value. Plus Ethos
had said they were not interested in participating in an
auction, and it was thought they might just walk away. The
decision was made to negotiate. <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Why does then ICANN auction gTLDs, and not take expert advice to
make secret deals to maximise its reveues? Does its auction
process reduce the morale and value of gTLDs or its buyers? I
absolutely did not get your logic.</p>
<p>ICANN has a rulebook whereby it has to auction gTLDs.... This
rule exists as an obvious good practice, especially when dealing
with a public or community asset.... ISOC did not have such a rule
pre-established for it bec it is normally not in gTLDs selling
business. But this does not mean that it can avoid observing the
normal good practice, especially as involving a public or
community asset, which most people take PIR to be, and is also
indicated in its name. ISOC may not have broken any rule, but its
secret sale of .org is absolutely against the spirit of community
trusteeship that it is supposed to embody. <br>
</p>
<p>It is for the civil society engaged with IG issues to seek
accountability from ISOC in this regard. With non IG civil society
organisations like Girl Scouts taking up the cudgels against ISOC
it will be greatly amiss if we do not take any stand in this
matter.</p>
<p>parminder <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Joly</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 1:10 PM
Mwendwa Kivuva <<a href="mailto:Kivuva@transworldafrica.com" target="_blank">Kivuva@transworldafrica.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">If I was on the ISOC board, I would probably
suggest an auction as the best bet. Buying a $100m annual
revenue company with few overheads at $1.3b is a steal
anywhere. With the right strategy, the return on investment
will be in less than 10 years. A simplistic reasonable RoI
of 20years puts the value of .org way beyond the $2b mark</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 30, 2019,
23:58 Dave Burstein <<a href="mailto:daveb@dslprime.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">daveb@dslprime.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">Folks</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">I know many of the board
members at ISOC. I've been one of the most skeptical
of the deal, which clearly causes some important
harm. That said, I have written they are honorable
and not corrupt. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">When the $1.135B figure was
(finally) released, I write the below, including "If
I were on the board, I might have voted for the
deal." Reasonable people <u>might</u> decide that
$1B+ for an organization committed to the Internet
for everybody is enough to balance the harms we've
discussed. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">I'm sending this here because
I'm sure most of the people on this list are
likewise honorable, even if I think their positions
wrong. There are crooks in this world, including
many US Congressmen, but very few of them bother
with this list or the ISOC board. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">It's now important we work to
bring ISOC back to its mission and open internal
processes. ISOC is very far away from living up to
our principles. If you're not an ISOC member, do
join and choose a chapter. If there's no chapter
where you are, the New York Chapter welcomes you. A
third of our members are not local.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">My strength is tech, not
policy. If you need to know whether Massive MIMO is
the cost-effective way to a robust Internet, please
ask. (It is, per Stanford Professor Paulraj.) Or
what's really going on in 5G. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">I've also included an opinion
piece on IGF. I listened to a session on IoT which
was completely out of touch. To be widely adopted,
IoT devices need to cost $2-$5. The suggestions on
that panel would cost more than that. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><a href="https://netpolicynews.com/index.php/89-r/1166-1-300-000-000-to-internet-society-if-org-deal-goes-down" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://netpolicynews.com/index.php/89-r/1166-1-300-000-000-to-internet-society-if-org-deal-goes-down</a><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">
<h2 style="box-sizing:border-box;color:inherit;line-height:1.2;margin:0px 0px 18px;font-size:1.4em"><a href="https://netpolicynews.com/index.php/89-r/1166-1-300-000-000-to-internet-society-if-org-deal-goes-down" title="Breaking: $1,135,000,000 to Internet
Society if .org Deal Goes Down" style="box-sizing:border-box;background:transparent;color:rgb(19,40,69);text-decoration-line:none" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Breaking: $1,135,000,000
to Internet Society if .org Deal Goes Down</a></h2>
<p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 9px">Tim
Berners-Lee, over 10,000 at <a href="https://savedotorg.org/#add-org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://savedotorg.org/#add-org</a>,
slews of reporters, 3 ISOC Chapters and almost all
well-informed independents are strongly opposed to
the deal. The Internet Society just revealed it
would get 1.13 Billion from very rich US investors
for .org. That is enough money that honorable
people have decided the damage to the Internet
from the deal should be overridden. The deal will
die if Pennsylvania or ICANN blocks or even
delays.</p>
<p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 9px">If
I were on the board, I might have voted for the
deal. I've been among the most skeptical, partly
because the amount and many other key details were
totally secret. I would have demanded much more
information and public discussion. </p>
<p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 9px">I'm
strongly advocating ISOC now take extraordinary
steps to heal the rift with the chapters and
restore the public perception of ISOC. </p>
<p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 9px"><a href="https://netpolicynews.com/index.php/89-r/1162-igf-talkfest-crisis-chaos-or-just-evolving" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://netpolicynews.com/index.php/89-r/1162-igf-talkfest-crisis-chaos-or-just-evolving</a><br>
</p>
<h2 style="box-sizing:border-box;color:inherit;line-height:1.2;margin:0px 0px 18px;font-size:1.4em"><a href="https://netpolicynews.com/index.php/89-r/1162-igf-talkfest-crisis-chaos-or-just-evolving" title="IGF Talkfest: Crisis, Chaos, or Just
Evolving" style="box-sizing:border-box;background:transparent;color:rgb(19,40,69);text-decoration-line:none" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">IGF Talkfest: Crisis,
Chaos, or Just Evolving</a></h2>
<p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 9px">"The
Internet Governance Forum does need to evolve,"
ICANN & ISOC-NY board member Avri Doria
emails. "Speaking personally, I do not believe the
IGF would disappear. If something were to happen,
or if in the future it was not renewed by the UN
General Assembly, then it could be recreated in a
bottom-up manner as an international place to
bring the various groups together. I also said
that I considered the National and Regional
Initiative one of the greatest outcomes of the IGF
because they brought "Internet Governance" to the
national and regional level." </p>
<p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 9px">The
most common criticism of the IGF is that all it
does is talk, talk, talk. That's valuable, but
many hope for IGF to have direct results. <a href="https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Missing-Link-Die-Rettung-des-Internet-Governance-Forum-4594822.htm" style="box-sizing:border-box;background:transparent;color:rgb(19,40,69);text-decoration-line:none" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Monika Ermert, the
best-informed commentator on "Internet
Governance,"</a> writes, "In Berlin, the hosts
want to work hard to lead the IGF out of the
crisis, which has been around for a few years
because it only debates and does not act. ... Die
Machtlosigkeit ist dabei ein Geburtsfehler."
Ermert describes a highly chaotic program.</p>
<p style="box-sizing:border-box;margin:0px 0px 9px">From
the beginning, governments did not want to give
away power. I've reported that the non-government
participants have come overwhelmingly from the US
and allies, as well as some others in general
agreement. The non-government attendees rarely
spoke from the point of view of the global south,
which now represents the strong majority of
Internet users. Two-thirds of the world want a
more internationally representative group in
charge, presumably the ITU. </p>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<span>Joly MacFie <span title="Call with Google Voice">218
565 9365</span> <a>Skype:punkcast</a></span><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>---------------------------------------------------------------<br><span>Joly MacFie <span title="Call with Google Voice">218 565 9365</span> Skype:punkcast</span><br>--------------------------------------------------------------<br>-</div></div></div>