<div><div dir="auto">Well said, Peng Hwa, citing Lyndall from SA government who chaired PrepCom 2 of UN WSIS that led WGIG which proposed IGF, at a night when South Africa won Rugby World Cup against all ids here in Japan.</div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">IMHO, if IGF wants to remain relevant, there should be a bold reform, say making from scratch. But I doubt most of ‘stake’ holders there don’t want to do that, exactly because they don’t want to lose the very stake they got? Be it business, government, tech community or civil society. It’s been so long since 2003 for WSIS or ICANN since around 1997/8. Aging problem indeed.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Izumi </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">2019年11月2日(土) 14:23 Ang Peng Hwa (Prof) <<a href="mailto:TPHANG@ntu.edu.sg">TPHANG@ntu.edu.sg</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">Hi all.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">Chipping in….</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">“in their respective roles”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">It’s a bit of glass half-empty or half-full perspective. Inserting “in their respective roles” suggests that civil society has a role. From one perspective therefore,
moving from non-recognition to being recognised as having a role was a major deal. Hence the phrase was accepted.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">And the IGF was created as a forum in which all stakeholders could discuss – but _<i>not</i>_ decide – issues</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">
<span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">The problem with the IGF is not the decision, which yes, any attempt to arrive at that will be challenging to say the least. The IGF mandate includes the power to recommend.
But many business stakeholders in particular did not want even that. Yes, there are best practice fora but for many government types, this is (note present tense, from past imperfect) not enough for their bosses.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Segoe UI"">
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI"">I am interested to know of examples of nation states that might have reasonable to good practices for involving civil society and the private sector in internet related policy development,</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">I suspect that it will be difficult if not impossible to locate “reasonable to good practices”. I am reminded of a remark by</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black"> <a href="https://www.wgig.org/docs/Bio-Mafole.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:black;text-decoration:none">Lyndall
Shope-Mafole</span></a>, then Chairperson, Presidential National Commission on Information Society and Development of South Africa, Pretoria, at a WGIG meeting in which someone said that it was difficult for civil society to effect policy. She said that when
you push, you must expect pushback but then you must keep pushing. And if you cannot do that, you will not effect policy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black">I have one example from Singapore. (Just one. The Singapore Government does so much of the policy work that once when I told the passenger sitting next
to me on a flight that I did policy work, his response was: you work for the government?)
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black">This was the case of the movie Dallas Buyers Club. Its business model apparently includes sending illegal downloaders lawyer’s letters demanding S$5,000
(US$3,500) for the download. The ex-co of the Singapore Chapter of the Internet Society, many of whom are lawyers, wrote an op-ed
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/dallas-buyers-club-case-threatening-subscribers-wont-stop-piracy" target="_blank">https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/dallas-buyers-club-case-threatening-subscribers-wont-stop-piracy</a>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black">calling for some safeguards against the practice. When the next cases, Queen of the Desert (Nicole Kidman) and Fathers & Daughters (Russell Crowe), did the same thing,
the Attorney-General and the IP Office stepped in </span><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue"><a href="https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/ipos-agc-seek-intervene-court-proceedings-alleged-illegal-movie-downloading-case" target="_blank">https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/ipos-agc-seek-intervene-court-proceedings-alleged-illegal-movie-downloading-case</a></span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">.
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black">The court threw out the two cases
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/high-court-throws-out-hollywood-movie-piracy-case" target="_blank">https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/high-court-throws-out-hollywood-movie-piracy-case</a>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:black"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif">There was another happy ending: the paper gave us $300 for the op-ed and as just about the entire committee had contributed to the op-ed, we had a satisfying lunch
meeting. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt">Ang Peng Hwa<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div></div><div lang="EN-SG" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_5974879683250028055WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black"><<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.riseup.net" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.riseup.net</a>> on behalf of "Mueller, Milton L" <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>"Mueller, Milton L" <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, 2 November 2019 at 10:57 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>governance <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net" target="_blank">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [governance] Good examples of muiltistakeholder policy development at a national level?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Ian, David, Tamir:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sorry for my late entry into this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We need to understand the historical context in which concepts such as “in their respective roles” and “equal footing” arose.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In the first phase of WSIS, governments insisted that global internet policy could only be made by them. That was their right exclusively,
they believed, based on classic, 19<sup>th</sup> century concepts of territorial sovereignty. If you read the WSIS Declaration you see the roles for governments, civil society and the private sector spelled out. Private sector was supposed to be confined to
operational matters, and the role of civil society is so vague as to be almost laughable, but it had something to do with local communities.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The civil society and private sector actors, on the other hand, wanted equal status in global internet governance. This was particularly
true of those involved in ICANN, which was a non-governmental governance institution, in which governments not only did not have the final say in making policy, but actually were confined to an advisory capacity.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">WSIS was a (not very coherent) compromise in which multistakeholder governance was formally recognized and accepted, but (as a document
written entirely by governments) said that the different stakeholders had different “roles.” And the IGF was created as a forum in which all stakeholders could discuss – but _<i>not</i>_ decide – issues on an “equal footing.”
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The division of labor called for by “in their respective roles” never really worked. ICANN went on about its business, strengthening
the role of governments but never elevating them to the special status that the WSIS resolutions wanted. GAC is still advisory, and outside of ICANN, in things like the issue of cyber norms, we see civil society and the private sector as influential as governments.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Internet governance is transnational and the “public” it governs is transnational, yet governments are territorial. Internet governance
does not work by means of formal treaties negotiated among territorial sovereigns, for two reasons: 1) because the governments cannot agree on any rules, and 2) in IG, operational and technical matters are fully integrated with policy decisions so that private
sector really has a lot of the de facto decision making power. Any attempt to govern a globalized system such as the DNS based on territorial sovereignty, for example, would threaten the global compatibility of the internet.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The thing to understand here is that multistakeholder governance, in which national governments do NOT hold the final say, is necessary
for cyberspace because cyberspace is global, transnational. Multistakeholder gov fills the gaps left by the shortcomings of territorial governance.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Now, for you to ask, Ian, whether “multistakeholder governance” or “equal footing” is needed or works at the _<i>national</i>_ level
kind of misses the point of the whole debate over MS that took place (and is still taking place) around _<i>global</i>_ internet governance. Of course at the national level, you have a single sovereign government and it is much less problematic for national
decisions to be made under the framework of traditional national governance. And in democratic societies, there are all kinds of consultations, public-private partnerships, and power sharing arrangements but in the final analysis the state is the decider
at the national level. The reason we’ve moved away from that for global IG is because there is no global sovereign.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">These issues are very close to the theme of an IGF workshop I organized along with Bill Drake. You can check out the speakers and themes
here:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><a href="https://igf2019.sched.com/event/8255ed1c308e604776fbb689d39138dd" target="_blank">https://igf2019.sched.com/event/8255ed1c308e604776fbb689d39138dd</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.riseup.net" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.riseup.net</a> <<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.riseup.net" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.riseup.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:david_allen_ab63@post.harvard.edu" target="_blank">david_allen_ab63@post.harvard.edu</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 29, 2019 8:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> governance <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net" target="_blank">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Good examples of muiltistakeholder policy development at a national level?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">How about "in their respective roles"?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">David<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">On Oct 29, 2019, at 4:42 PM, Ian Peter <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI"">I am interested to know of examples of nation states that might have reasonable to good practices for involving civil society and the private sector in internet related policy
development, along the lines perhaps of the ancient WSIS definition of "on an equal footing".</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI"">Is anyone doing this this other than in a token fashion? A few years ago we had a good example with Brazil, but a change of government changed that. What are our good examples
now, or don't they exist?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI"">Ian</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI"">---<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"> >> Izumi Aizu <<<br>Institute for InfoSocionomics, Tama University, Tokyo<br>Institute for HyperNetwork Society, Oita, <br>Japan<br><a href="http://www.anr.org" target="_blank">www.anr.org</a><br></div>