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  <body><div>If I may add to the irony - if governmental control over such issues by 191 individual nation states acting unilaterally was likely to somehow be effective, we would not have to have this conversation at all and indeed all internet governance discussions would be a waste of time. And indeed the problems would already have been solved.</div><div><br /></div><div>But the simple fact is, the current global nation states Westphalian system is unable to deal with the complexity of a global network, and we have to look at how this might be done more effectively.</div><div><br /></div><div>Through the UN? Perhaps so. But their track record isnt brilliant. Not is the history of multistakeholder efforts, as Parminder is so quick to point out.</div><div><br /></div><div>So what do we do?</div><div><br /></div><div>Well the recent UNHLPDC came up with some sensible structural suggestions, many of them building on IGF foundations. But as that effort involved the World Economic Forum as well as the UN substantial sections of civil society will reject any such directions on ideological grounds without discussion as to whether they might provide a sensible path forward.</div><div><br /></div><div>I dont expect we will ever see agreement among civil society groups as to a single perfect model for addressing these issues, so why bother trying?</div><div><br /></div><div>Would it not be better for us to turn our attention to efforts we can make to contribute to the debate by highlighting the importance of such issues, without us having to come to some unlikely total agreement as to the perfect structure to deal with them before we take the smallest action or adopt the simplest statement?</div><div><br /></div><div>Ian</div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "parminder" <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></div>
<div>To: "Ian Peter" <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>; "Mueller, Milton L" <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu">milton@gatech.edu</a>>; "governance" <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>></div>
<div>Sent: 4/10/2019 10:52:33 AM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Facebook’s Oversight Board: A toothless Supreme Court?</div><div><br /></div>
<div id="x9ec3749b368042c" style="color: #000000"><blockquote cite="227652a4-c82d-e45d-7c6c-52022d743232@itforchange.net" type="cite" class="cite2">

    <p><font face="Verdana">I remember how many years back people on
        this list, and I can distinctly recall my friend Bertrand de la
        Chapelle </font><font face="Verdana">for instance </font><font face="Verdana">advocate this , that, and I paraphrase, facebook
        'community' itself is a distinct social and perhaps political
        entity, and how we should focus on its community self governance
        and so on ..... These, what we talk about now, are chicken
        coming home to roost .... </font>We propagated this lawless
      digital world of self-regulation and big corporation vetoes for
      quite a long time. Why rue it now...</p>
    <p>Yes, some politicians may be making the right notes, but what
      notes is the IG civil society making, still!</p>
    <p>My ironical comments - and I apologise for that -- are towards
      the practical purpose of exhorting the IG civil society to make a
      real and strong reassessment of what their single-minded
      devotionto just one thing of multi-stakeholderism and
      self-regulation has brought the world to, and what amends can we
      make at this stage. We bear a responsibility to the world.</p>
    <p>parminder <br />
    </p>
    <p><br />
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/10/19 2:59 AM, Ian Peter wrote:<br />
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:embe93ca35-a0ae-447c-863d-8be327675ac3@desktop-rub0n2r" class="cite">
      
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      <title>[IGP Announce] Facebook’s Oversight Board: A toothless
        Supreme Court?</title>
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      <div>Well, hardly a supreme court! </div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div>From what I read this body just looks at one issue - content
        moderation. This is often a culture-specific issue - what should
        be taken down in some cultures is perfectly OK in many others.
        Good luck to them in achieving anything more than the decades of
        debate on this subject have. Where there is global agreement on
        offensive content, I am not sure this board will be able to add
        any value.</div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div>But thats hardly the point. Facebook will claim that this is
        an example of how it is being consultative and involving of its
        community, and how this makes it a model corporate player.
        People will buy this spin, and issues which Facebook refuses to
        address through this or any other body such as data monetisation
        and other uses of personal data will be swept under the carpet
        and forgotten - at least in the FB spin.</div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div>I think the question for us is how we keep the bigger issues
        from being forgotten in this context. I hear one US presidential
        hopeful (Eliz abeth Warren) is raising the subjects, but some
        powerful Wall Street based Democrat financial supporters are
        threatening not to back her because of this. </div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div>Data  monetisation and surveillance capitalism are big issues
        not being addressed adequately anywhere yet. I hope we can raise
        this issue effectively.</div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div>Ian Peter</div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div>------ Original Message ------</div>
      <div>From: "Mueller, Milton L" <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">milton@gatech.edu</a>></div>
      <div>To: "governance" <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net" moz-do-not-send="true">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>></div>
      <div>Sent: 3/10/2019 11:56:10 PM</div>
      <div>Subject: [governance] FW: Facebook’s Oversight Board: A
        toothless Supreme Court?</div>
      <div><br />
      </div>
      <div id="x0ace7f0c6e87473">
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                                                          <h1>Internet
                                                          Governance
                                                          Alert<o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></h1>
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                                                          <h2><a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=7550618346&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#EEB232;font-weight:normal">Facebook’s
                                                          Oversight
                                                          Board: A
                                                          toothless
                                                          Supreme Court?</span></a><o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></h2>
                                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><em><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#404040">By
                                                          </span></em><em><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David
                                                          Morar
                                                          </span></em><em><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#404040">on
                                                          Oct 02, 2019
                                                          06:24 pm</span></em><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#404040"><br />
                                                          <br />
                                                          <o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></span></p>
                                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:7.5pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:150%">
                                                          <span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#404040">A
                                                          week and a
                                                          half ago
                                                          Facebook
                                                          released its
                                                          final charter
                                                          for the
                                                          Oversight
                                                          Board it
                                                          intends to
                                                          create to
                                                          tackle its
                                                          content
                                                          moderation
                                                          problems. The
                                                          charter spells
                                                          out exactly
                                                          how it would
                                                          work, who
                                                          would be on it
                                                          and what its
                                                          responsibilities
                                                          are. CNET has
                                                          a good basic
                                                          description of
                                                          what the board
                                                          would […]<o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></span></p>
                                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:7.5pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:150%;-ms-text-size-adjust:&#xD;&#xA;100%;-webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%">
                                                          <span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#404040">The
                                                          post <a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=4690e43278&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                                          <span style="color:#EEB232">Facebook’s
                                                          Oversight
                                                          Board: A
                                                          toothless
                                                          Supreme Court?</span></a>
                                                          appeared first
                                                          on
                                                          <a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=02bfa55642&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                                          <span style="color:#EEB232">Internet
                                                          Governance
                                                          Project</span></a>.<o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></span></p>
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                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"> </o:p></p>
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                                                          <td style="border:solid&#xD;&#xA;                                                          #EEB319&#xD;&#xA;                                                          1.5pt;padding:13.5pt&#xD;&#xA;                                                          13.5pt 13.5pt&#xD;&#xA;13.5pt;border-radius: 100px;-ms-text-size-adjust:&#xD;&#xA;                                                          100%;-webkit-text-size-adjust:&#xD;&#xA;                                                          100%">
                                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=4ee26adbc0&e=c98d2e287c" title="READ&#xD;&#xA;                                                          MORE" moz-do-not-send="true"><b><span style="color:#EEB319;text-decoration:none">READ MORE</span></b></a> <o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></span></p>
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                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"> </o:p></p>
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                                                          <h2><span style="font-size:15.0pt;line-height:150%">Recent
                                                          Articles:</span><o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></h2>
                                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:150%"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#404040"><a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=b08ffbf3d0&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#EEB232">Wait for it: IGP
                                                          study on the
                                                          political
                                                          economy of DoH</span></a><br />
                                                          <a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=c04a85df39&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#EEB232">Just the facts?
                                                          Building an
                                                          independent
                                                          attribution
                                                          institution</span></a><br />
                                                          <a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=a29e989e37&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#EEB232">The Summer of routing
                                                          leaks, and
                                                          good MANRS</span></a><br />
                                                          <a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=cd2bfea943&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#EEB232">More Debate about
                                                          Social Media’s
                                                          Impact on
                                                          Society</span></a><br />
                                                          <a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=31473a16f8&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#EEB232">Are Indictments in
                                                          Absentia an
                                                          Effective
                                                          Deterrent for
                                                          Cyber-Attacks?</span></a>
                                                          <o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></span></p>
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                                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><a href="https://internetgovernance.us18.list-manage.com/track/click?u=be001c22ec8bec5d0a255823c&id=60cec55f87&e=c98d2e287c" moz-do-not-send="true"><img style="width:.25in;height:.25in" id="_x0000_i1027" src="https://cdn-images.mailchimp.com/icons/social-block-v2/outline-light-twitter-48.png" moz-do-not-send="true" width="24" height="24" border="0" /></a><o:p xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></p>
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