<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Do you think there is a reason it’’s China – its human rights record, writ repeatedly, every day …?<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">David</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 3, 2019, at 3:20 PM, <a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" class="">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Well I'm not sure of the objective David.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">But if it is, as you suggest, to be clear that despotic behaviour is unaccep<span style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">table in the world community, I woud prefer a broader letter including cases such as Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange. And perhaps a very broad range of internet activists who have been imprisoned, and perhaps addressed to UN or something.</span></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">This just looks a little Sinophobic to me in its current form.</span></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">------ Original Message ------</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:david_allen_ab63@post.harvard.edu" class="">david_allen_ab63@post.harvard.edu</a></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">To: "<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" class="">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" class="">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Cc: "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" class="">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>>; "Marie Georges" <<a href="mailto:ma.georges@orange.fr" class="">ma.georges@orange.fr</a>>; "Norbert Bollow" <<a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" class="">nb@bollow.ch</a>>; "governance" <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net" class="">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Sent: 4/08/2019 3:46:14 AM</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Subject: Re: [governance] Statement by IGC on Huan Qi's sentencing</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div id="xd5715fbc5f20465" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><blockquote cite="x-msg://25/4C3E8DA0-A179-4FAF-B851-7220CB95AC48@post.harvard.edu" type="cite" class="cite2" style="margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 0px; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 3px; padding-top: 0px;">Do we actually believe our actions will secure his release?<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Or rather, have the opportunity tp be clear that despotic behavior is unacceptable in the world community? And so, want to be clear on the fact.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Which is the realistic option?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">David</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 3, 2019, at 1:29 PM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" class="">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">I am not happy with the tone of this. </div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">If you actually want something to happen and for China to listen, I would suggest removing phrases such as "<span class="" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">Huang Qi's persecution and imprisonment reflects China’s continued repression of free speech."</span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>That will achieve nothing towards securing a release.</div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">I think earlier on Chaitanya was alluding to the need for a more diplomatic post, when he suggested (along with a third suggestion which everyone rejected)</div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div id="x3f16d7c286b54108a974f1b9f3b94b88" class="" style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 12pt; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 8px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class="" style="zoom: 1.1;"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif;">- Huang Qi has greatly strengthened China as a country by bringing to the foreground these issues (corruption & human rights issues). </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif;">- It is our (my) view that he should be honoured as a strong contributor to society. </div></div></div></div></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">I can see the logic in including such phrases and in phrasing a letter so that it is not so much an attack on a country who we are asking to take a specific action to free someone who we believe has been wrongfully imprisoned.</div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Ian</div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">----- Original Message ------</div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">From: "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net" class="">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">To: "Marie Georges" <<a href="mailto:ma.georges@orange.fr" class="">ma.georges@orange.fr</a>></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Cc: "Norbert Bollow" <<a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" class="">nb@bollow.ch</a>>; "governance" <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net" class="">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>></div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Sent: 3/08/2019 2:45:52 AM</div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Subject: Re: [governance] Statement by IGC on Huan Qi's sentencing</div><div class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br class=""></div><div id="x6e3bb2f864fa4f7" class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><blockquote cite="x-msg://20/CAJwbTiCZtpiGoCTWUiaMjF1iitp-1F+TeMnE_KwLiK5=ij0gtw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite" class="cite2" style="margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 0px; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 3px; padding-top: 0px;"><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><span class="" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">Dear All,</span><div dir="auto" class="" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;"><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;">Please suggest revisions. When there is consensus and we finalise, we can release the statement to China's ambassador to Geneva who is on the MAG. </div><div dir="auto" class="" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px;"><br class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Proposed Draft</div><div dir="auto" class=""><p class="">The Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus is deeply concerned by the sentencing of online activist Huang Qi to 12 years in prison. Huang has been honored multiple times by Reporters Without Borders for his courage in exposing corruption and human rights violations in China through his website, 64 Tianwang.</p><p class="">Huang Qi's persecution and imprisonment reflects China’s continued repression of free speech. We urge the Chinese government to uphold its international commitments related to fair trial guarantees and the rule of law. We call on China to immediately release Mr. Huang, and to allow him access to his family, medical care, and legal counsel as soon as possible. We also call on China to end undue restrictions on the freedom of movement of his family and those who assisted him.</p><p class="">We note that China is a member of the United Nations Human Rights Council this year. The Civil Society Internet Governance Caucus calls on China to aspire to subscribe to the Charter of the Internet Rights and Principles which was developed by the Dynamic Coalition on Internet Rights and Principles within the Internet Governance Forum and is available on the OHCHR website. </p></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 2 Aug 2019, 5:48 pm Marie Georges, <<a href="mailto:ma.georges@orange.fr" class="">ma.georges@orange.fr</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Complete agreement with you Norbert.<br class="">Marie<br class=""><br class="">Envoyé de mon iPhone<br class=""><br class="">> Le 2 août 2019 à 10:24, Norbert Bollow <<a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" rel="noreferrer" class="">nb@bollow.ch</a>> a écrit :<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 03:38:08 +0530<br class="">> "Chaitanya Dhareshwar" (via governance Mailing List)<br class="">> <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net" rel="noreferrer" class="">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>> wrote:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> - A reasonable middle ground between sentencing (law) and honouring<br class="">>> commitment to free speech would be to give a Community Service<br class="">>> sentence<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I would strongly object to anything that calls anything a "reasonable<br class="">> middle ground" which is not fully in alignment with all human rights<br class="">> including the right to free speech.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Greetings,<br class="">> Norbert<br class="">> ---<br class="">> To unsubscribe: <mailto:<a href="mailto:igc-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net" rel="noreferrer" class="">igc-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net</a>><br class="">> List help: <<a href="https://riseup.net/lists" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" class="">https://riseup.net/lists</a>><br class=""><br class="">---<br class="">To unsubscribe: <mailto:<a href="mailto:igc-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net" rel="noreferrer" class="">igc-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net</a>><br class="">List help: <<a href="https://riseup.net/lists" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" class="">https://riseup.net/lists</a>><br class=""></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><span class="" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); 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