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<p>Agree completely with you on this Milton. And as Farzi pointed
out, of course we should preserve the documents on the Best Bits
site, and the list archives.<br>
</p>
<p>By the way, if anyone wants the archives of the IGC lists I have
pretty complete records for 2009-2016. Probably earlier too but on
a back-up drive somewhere. I also think that the list archive of
the list when it was still hosted by APC is still available
somewhere too.<br>
</p>
<p>Anriette<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-----------------------------
Anriette Esterhuysen
Senior advisor on internet governance, policy advocacy and strategic planning
Association for Progressive Communications
apc.org
afrisig.org
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anriette@apc.org">anriette@apc.org</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019/06/17 23:08, Mueller, Milton L
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Really
good point, Sheetal.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But
it is actually a substantive one. You have pointed out that
there are divergent perceptions of the discussion, and this
is happening because the lists are not integrated. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
how can anyone seriously suggest that we do not need to
merge these lists? How can anyone truly concerned with civil
society influence favor maintaining this stupid barrier
between the groups involved? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--MM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Without wanting to weigh in on the
substantive discussion being had here, I was just
wondering if it was a purposeful decision to drop Bestbits
in some of these replies. It seems there are two divergent
perceptions of the discussion happening. Happy for IGC to
have its discussion but at some point, those on Bestbits
who are not on IGC will need to be updated as I believe
there are some Bestbits members who have only seen one
side of the conversation. Otherwise, I'm happy to loop
Bestbits back in, and share the conversation that has
already happened?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sheetal.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 11:03, Carolina
Rossini <<a href="mailto:carolina.rossini@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">carolina.rossini@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I did not say anybody was
suggesting anything. It was just a reminder.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tks <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:42 AM
farzaneh badii <<a
href="mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">farzaneh.badii@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">@Carolina
(Hello!) I don't think anyone here is
suggesting that BestBits documents, materials
etc will not be preserved. It is only a matter
of how we should preserve them when we carry
out the merge. (Jeremy has been wanting to
transfer the domain name for the past I think
around 3 years, no one wants to take over, so
we definitely need a plan), we can for example
decide on having the materials stored on
future IGC website. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">As
to changes to the IGC charter, as Sheetal
explained and it is in the proposal, the
changes are going to be lightweight but if IGC
charter recommends a process for amendment,
then we should follow that. I still support
forming a small group to look into these
issues and let us know how we should proceed.
Even if we don't agree to change the charter,
we can consider what new features IGC should
possess in order to address the needs of its
members and those members that are migrating
from BestBits and generally more engagement
with IG processes. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">As
to the poll among BestBits members, that is
something you need to discuss with BestBits.
Just a reminder that both groups have been in
my opinion briefed and engaged with the
conversation. We did not just have a meeting
with 11 members. Since December 2018, IGC and
BestBits held meetings about this, a survey
was taken to see what BestBits members think
(the average attendance in those meetings was
something like 15 members, Sheetal shared a
comprehensive result of the survey). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">@Sala
thank you for your kind words. I believe in
collective action and am glad that you found
the briefings and reports useful. InternetNZ's
help was crucial in making that happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Christchurch
call was one instance when the civil society
got together and showed its depth of expertise
and knowledge about Internet governance
issues. So we definitely can get it together
and act collectively. It's just a matter of
how, which I am sure we solve if we keep at it
and have these conversations. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Farzaneh
</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 3:42
AM Carolina Rossini <<a
href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I disagree with you Ian.
A pool is needed among the BB members. There
are more than 11. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">And for the BB folks, and
it’s is not only the mailing list. BB site
has a lot of good material and statements
that should be captured and saved. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sorry I could not make to
the meeting. You can only imagine how busy I
am.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tks Sheetal for moving this
forward with all the delicate and sensitive
touch it does deserve. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">C<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at
5:20 AM <a
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a> <<a
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No poll needed.
Best Bits closes down (their call).
Former members join IGC individually.
End of story. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But fixing the IGC
constitution (a later step) is more
complex as Sala points out.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ian.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">------ Original
Message ------<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From: "Salanieta T.
Tamanikaiwaimaro" <<a
href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To: "Sheetal Kumar"
<<a
href="mailto:sheetal@gp-digital.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sheetal@gp-digital.org</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cc: "Bakhtiyor
Avezdjanov" <<a
href="mailto:ba2482@columbia.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ba2482@columbia.edu</a>>;
"Lee W McKnight" <<a
href="mailto:lmcknigh@syr.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lmcknigh@syr.edu</a>>;
"Tapani Tarvainen" <<a
href="mailto:tapani.tarvainen@effi.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">tapani.tarvainen@effi.org</a>>;
"Sivasubramanian M" <<a
href="mailto:6.Internet@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">6.Internet@gmail.com</a>>;
"Akinremi Peter Taiwo" <<a
href="mailto:compsoftnet@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">compsoftnet@gmail.com</a>>;
"governance" <<a
href="mailto:governance@lists.riseup.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">governance@lists.riseup.net</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent: 14/06/2019
11:40:49 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Subject: Re:
[governance] The proposal for closing
Bestbits and merging with IGC + next
steps (was "Follow-on from survey on
the future of Bestbits: next steps")<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-8395251890500775361m_7577391105957002451gmail-m_-7797379912895899417m_-1872740080716854960x9bf5bd8e2a19445">
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The IGC usually
takes a poll led by elected
co-coordinators to determine
consensus. If post discussion and
debate, consensusnis reached to
merge then by all means.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nobody speaks
for the IGC unless there is
consensus, if you want to change
the Charter, then there is a
process to follow. It is meant
to protect us. Members of Best
Bits are members of the IGC
anyway unless they left or
unsubscribed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One of the
challenges, I have seen is the
loss of important IGC data from
the old servers. Every
organsiation has to evolve,
advance but this has to be based
on consensus, and papers for and
against, proper discussion and
debate. From the outset, all I
have seen is a presumption where
the IGC has been forcibly roped
into discussing mergers without
the consensus.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The
co-coordinators have not set a
strategic pathway for engagement
in key international fora as the
IGC in the HLP session although
I was to see great geographical
representation by some members
of the IGC in the.forum in their
individual capacity.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would also
like to see the IGC working with
the World Economic Forum etc and
participating in the UN New York
meetings, although some members
participate in their
organisational capacity. It is
also significant that UNDESA
reviews the global SDG projects
and has a
monitoring/evaluation/audit type
role which it uses to review and
report back to the UNGA.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On another
separate, note, whilst Arden
(bless her heart), and others
have been royally pissed about
making a dent in how global MNCs
like Facebook behave in crisis,
these are not new issues as they
are.similar to historical
discussion on the list about
Brits imposing a temporary ban
over a certain radius of the
London bombing just as the
Egyptians and others have done
during times of national
security. The Tech Accord which
represents the committment and
negotiations between MNCs, Tech
Giants and some government reps
as was shared by the former
French Ambassador on Cyber
affairs and others, it is on a
transcript at a main session
from last year.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The most New
Zealand can do is impose a law
in New Zealand against these
giants. Facebook's Mia in NZ
who is based in the Sydney
officer and global public policy
counterparts have alot of work
on their hands.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One view is
that the threat to freedom of
expression (which the IGC has
always talked about is no
respecter of whether you are
from the East, West, South,
North. The principles are well
established in International law
and Frank La Rue's report to the
UN General Assembly which was
endorsed is relevant. On the
other hand, threats that Jeremy
Malcolm and others have been
raising on wordings and
semantics on child pornography
by a UN Drafting.committee show
an example of new and emergent
threats.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Personally,
even if Arden takes it to the
UN, the UN is obliged and
mandated not to duplicate work
that is already done and to this
end, the UN Secretary General's
foresight in appointing the HLP
and launching the report is key
as geopolitical tensions are
further heightened. I have yet
to read the full HLP report, but
if it is missing a FoX
compoment, then a letter to the
Co-Chairs, the UN Secretary
General.may the faster non
bureaucratic way to get
traction.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What giants
like Facebook would fear is
being broken up for regulation!
Frankly Macron is hated in
France just as Trump is hated in
the US for imposing taxes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It would be
great for the IGC to host and
convene a panel to explore this.
I would recommend Bertrand from
Internet Jurisdiction to co
facilitate and moderate a
geographically diverse panel and
a representative from the Geneva
Internet Platform. I know
Bertrand is speaking at a
European Court of Human Rights
with others.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We need to
take a step back and reflect as
a community how we want to
engage. We cannot be reactive
and we have to stay ahead of the
curve.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2.36am so
best be getting back to bed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sala<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">---<br>
To unsubscribe: <mailto:<a
href="mailto:igc-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">igc-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net</a>><br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://riseup.net/lists</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Carolina
Rossini </span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">+ 1
(617) 697 9389 | </span><span
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style="background:white"><span
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style="background:white"><span
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Lead | GLOBAL
PARTNERS
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Street,
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