<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 1:20 PM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><div><br></div><div>(snippets, from latest reply in thread under subject line: "Text of Parminder's input") </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class=""><br><div><br></div></span>In sum: in absolute terms 'democracy' may be unclear and confusing, but it so much less so in relative terms. And for practical actors, it is the relative that matters.<br><br><br>Mawaki, basically, I am disagreeing with both the (related) propositions<br><br>1. That there is a huge amount of confusion around 'democratic'<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Just to be clear, I was humbly referring to my proposed ordering of the arguments when I used the term 'confusing'.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>2. There are any dangers or risks of democracy (as you mention below)<span class=""><font color="#888888"><br></font></span></div></blockquote></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial;font-size:small"><span style="border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0px"><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div style="font-size:12.8px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-bottom:5px"><div style="overflow:hidden"></div></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"></div></div></span></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Your whole argument, Parminder, has been heard loud and clear by this participant. </div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Norbert Bollow <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" target="_blank">nb@bollow.ch</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:59:37 +0000<br>
Mawaki Chango <<a href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com">kichango@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> The reluctance from some to apply the<br>
> category of democracy to Internet governance stems from the<br>
> limitations (and risks? dangers?) of democracy in their eyes.<br>
<br>
At least in my understanding of those those viewpoints, they are not<br>
primarily intended to be anti-democratic and in fact I'm sure that many<br>
of the proponents of those viewpoints see themselves as being firmly<br>
pro-democratic.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">Sure! Just to be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that they had anti-democratic leanings. As pro-democratic as we may all be (or most of us anyway), we may still be critical about how far democracy has taken us and can still take us, and particularly whether it offers the best governance model to apply to IG, which AFAIK is the specific and sole context </div>the arguments<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline"> I was trying to </div>recap w<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">ere</div> meant <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">for</div>.</div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline"></div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
IMO the fears and concerns in relation to JNC and others insisting<br>
that like all other areas of governance, Internet governance must of<br>
course be democratic, arise from the following two facts:<br>
<br>
1) It is hard to imagine an implementation of the principles of<br>
democracy that would not be state-based.<br>
<br>
2) So far the track record of state actions in relation to the Internet<br>
is really, really bad, both for democratic and for non-democratic<br>
states.<br>
<br>
> Is<br>
> there a thoughtful - and as comprehensive as possible - articulation<br>
> of those limitations, risks and/or dangers to be found somewhere? Do<br>
> we think the two sets of concerns are irreconcilable?<br>
<br>
IMO it is certainly possible to create governance mechanisms that are<br>
suitable for Internet governance and other global concerns, and which<br>
are at the same time democratic and conductive to achieving good<br>
results.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline">I guess all the devil here is in that "achieving good results." What is good for one, is that good for the other?</div> </div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I guess I shall be looking for a response to that question the wisdom task force proposal.</div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I have a concrete proposal at <a href="http://wisdomtaskforce.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small;display:inline"></div>http://wisdomtaskforce.org/</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">While I haven't read all of it (yet... hopefully), this seems to point to the right direction overall if the purpose is to achieve the goal of effective decision-making mechanism based on democratic principles, which will be acceptable to all, both individual participants and stakeholders.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I guess your response is nudging me to clarify and complement the question I previously put to one side of the argument by formulating a two-sided request. It would be most useful if:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">1. On the one hand, the party that doesn't want any reference to democracy when it comes to IG can point to or develop a systematic critical assessment of democracy (more specifically, of democratic governance processes) as may relate to the global IG context, including the issues they seek to thus resolve or avoid; and</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">2. On the other hand, the party insisting on having IG processes to be democratic can point to or develop a working mechanism of democratic decision-making and governance that will be applicable in the global IG context (and if I understand it correctly, this is what the IWTF proposal is about?) </div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Mawaki</div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
Norbert<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div></div>