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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 22 December 2015 04:29 PM,
Mawaki Chango wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACTo+v9PUK0d2MUOqUvTJaqh1X8aqATJpniOopzsR+RHFkXqKg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">So is this debate in fact about the following (IOW
are we being asked to choose between two sides in the following
antagonisms, sometimes meaning to choose the least among two
evils)?</p>
<p dir="ltr">The Powerful (private business) vs Government
(presumably democratic), or verbatim: "the powerful" vs
"democratic mechanism's representatives"?<br>
Or even more abstractly: <br>
Power vs Democracy, irrespective of whether that power is
wielded by private entities or governments, democracy being the
side wherr the people finds itself?</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, exactly Mawaki - 'democracy is the side where people are'... It
is that which promises and ensures (as closely as possible) that
every person has same and equal political rights as any other. And
any political system can be tested against this clear principle -
especially whether if it is headed in a more democratic direction or
less. I dont see too much confusion here - people seem to be too
easily confused about 'democracy' now a days. (Yes, there is a
strong global movement today against dominant political cultures in
different places, but that is against the respect political cultures
and not against democracy, although this discontent is sought to be
used by those who want to preserve their illegitimate political and
economic power, which democracy challenges, by turning it into being
against democracy.) <br>
<br>
Of course no political system is even close to being perfectly
democratic (we are dealing with social phenomenon here not with
calculus or geometry). But then what is more or less democratic can
'relatively' be easily judged by whether it increases people's
power, and equability of their power, or decreases it. That is a
simple test of democracy, that we must apply.<br>
<br>
For instance, I have not heard anyone try to describe how giving
more political power to corporates, through including them in
multistakeholder decision making increases people power (adn
equality of power among them? But if one has such arguments please
share them.<br>
<br>
( I am reminded that one speaker on a panel on MSism and democracy
at the IGF said that corporates 'included' - i think this was the
word used - both the employees and consumers of a business and
therefore they have a political role - of course paraphrasing and
can be corrected.... And I immediately protested... I said that, in
fact, it is from 'their' business owners that employees and
consumers often needs public policy assistance/ protection the most.
The fact that employees and consumers would likely be harmed if a
business somehow disappears can no way be turned around to mean that
in political terms the business somehow, to whatever extent,
'includes' the interests of the respective employees and consumers.)<br>
<br>
I used the above as at least an attempt to use a democratic test on
a multistakeholderist political thinking, however ill-founded in my
consideration. <br>
<br>
Putting a democracy test should not at all be that difficult - as
long as we compare two political systems with sufficient degree of
clarity of their configurations (which MSists never let on), or two
stages of evolution of a political system. And not use the democracy
test summarily, with a pre-conceived bias and objective -- Like
saying, see, obviously this so called democratic thing is not too
good, and 'therefore' lets adopt another system - to which we are
ready to apply no test of democracy, ie show how the alternative is
more democratic than the rejected one. In sum: in absolute terms
'democracy' may be unclear and confusing, but it so much less so in
relative terms. And for practical actors, it is the relative that
matters.<br>
<br>
<br>
Mawaki, basically, I am disagreeing with both the (related)
propositions<br>
<br>
1. That there is a huge amount of confusion around 'democratic'<br>
<br>
2. There are any dangers or risks of democracy (as you mention
below)<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACTo+v9PUK0d2MUOqUvTJaqh1X8aqATJpniOopzsR+RHFkXqKg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">Unfairness (to the economically least powerful) vs
Centralization? Or Unfairness vs Capture enabled by
centralization through government?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Democracy vs Distributed system (governance)?<br>
Democratic governance vs Self-governance, "self" mostly
referring to those with material stake or the resources to
participate?</p>
<p dir="ltr">This seems a bit confusion (despite all the
rationality) but one thing becomes increasingly clear. The
reluctance from some to apply the category of democracy to
Internet governance stems from the limitations (and risks?
dangers?) of democracy in their eyes. Is there a thoughtful -
and as comprehensive as possible - articulation of those
limitations, risks and/or dangers to be found somewhere? Do we
think the two sets of concerns are irreconcilable?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Mawaki<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Dec 18, 2015 4:50 PM, "Garth Graham"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:garth.graham@telus.net">garth.graham@telus.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> On Dec 17, 2015, at 8:14 AM, anita <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:anita@itforchange.net">anita@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Pl find the link to a video clip and the corresponding
transcript here: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/UNGA_WSIS10"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.itforchange.net/UNGA_WSIS10</a><br>
<br>
Parminder concludes:<br>
> …. left to itself the digital-network phenomenon will
certainly be appropriated by the powerful and will result in
an even more unequal and unfair world…<br>
<br>
Whereas I would conclude: Left to a "democratic mechanism for
global governance of the Internet” the digital-network
phenomenon will certainly be appropriated by the democratic
mechanism’s representatives Centralizing the governance of a
distributed system makes it far more subject to capture than
by any other method.<br>
<br>
GG<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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