<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 30 Oct 2015, at 9:46 pm, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" class="">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 29 October 2015 07:26 PM,
Mueller, Milton L wrote:<br class="">
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<pre wrap="" class="">Well done, David!
And in particular your point that </pre>
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Too much here seems to be hanging on one point that I do not
understand what is a p2p technical architecture :). Even though I
have said that I did know it, and I would expect people to take such
a statement at face value.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I didn’t say you didn’t understand it, I said you confused two different levels of discourse by using technical terms inappropriately. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I didn’t state at all whether you were doing so due to ignorance of the technical details, or due to lazy rhetoric because making the distinction wouldn’t help your argument. If anyone had asked, I’d have guessed the latter. </div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> I keep hoping that this Northern project
of building the capacity of ignorant people in the South would have
some expiry date somewhere, but it does not seem to. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>You can pretend that this is the dynamic at work here, but I don’t think anyone is convinced. There are plenty of folk from ‘the global North’ (as an aside - always an odd descriptor for an Australian, but I accept the terminology is well established despite that) who similarly will unhelpfully conflate technical and political layers for rhetorical purposes (plenty of US and European activists, say, criticising Internet governance fora for not solving mass surveillance, as if ICANN or the IGF could just decree NSA programs out of existence), and plenty of activists in the global South who are excellent at correctly delineating the complex layering of technical and political (and economic, etc) issues we deal with, many of them on these lists (Pranesh’s recent work on analysis of the zero rating issue is a recent example that springs to mind). <br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
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<pre wrap="" class="">-----Original Message-----
Confusing the technical and economic and institutional architectures
like this is a problem, because it leads to confusing the roles of the bodies that
regulate the various levels.
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<pre wrap="" class="">...is especially important. </pre>
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This point is rather more substantial. However, still an allegation
of a 'confusion' that I do not have.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>No, I think it is a confusion you are trying to create for rhetorical purposes in that particular message. </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> In fact, I myself insist that
we do not use technical governance to leverage political solutions,
and also, as importantly, if not more, not take simplistic and
essentialist technical stances in areas that are essentially
political, like the area of centralisation or decentralisation of
power and control over the Internet essentially is. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>And in general I’m relatively in favour of decentralisation as well. I still don’t think a p2p system is the same thing as a decentralised system based on a client-server architecture. </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
It is rather more frustrating when technical actors, or worse,
political actors expediently taking a technical cover, insist on
some things being 'technical facts' when the issue is really
political.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>And perhaps you are missing the point that it is equally as frustrating when political actors insist on some things being ‘political facts’ when the issue is really technical. No matter how you frame it, P2P vs client-server is a technical distinction not a political one (P2P architectures can have centralised control, client-server architectures can form the basis of decentralised systems). </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> In this I agree with the above assertion that we should
avoid confusion about the role of bodies that regulate at various
levels. </div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I’m sure we can at least agree that confusion is not a positive thing, yes. </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">There is today too much of 'technical' intrusions in
Internet related public policy matters, a lot of which serves to
defend and legitimise status quoist political-economic positions and
advantages. For instance, I have a long history on this list, as
elsewhere, advocating that we avoid exporting models of governance
that may be suitable in the technical space to the political, or
Internet related public policy, space.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>As I’m well aware - its mostly on the fraught question of what might replace them on where we part ways. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> ICANN is a great advocate of
such an export, the Net Mundial Initiative being expressly that.
</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think you will find that while Fadi Chehade may be ICANNs CEO, he is not ICANN, his personal projects don’t always translate well to the advocated positions of ICANN in general. ICANN as a whole has a very limited connection to NMI, and that connection is likely diminishing. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Its also worth noting that the NMI is not a governance body - its essentially a funding body, clearing house, etc. I’m sure those directly involved with the NMI could fill in more detail. I’m fairly certain that, despite paranoia, it isn’t really a good example of ‘exporting models of governance that may be suitable in the technical space to the political’, it being neither a political governance nor a good example of a technical model of governance from the technical space. </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">Even ISOC recently advocated that Internet related public policy
issues be addressed taking lessons from how technical bodies like
the IETF work. This, David, I am sure, you would take these as
instances of what " leads to confusing the roles of the bodies that
regulate the various levels”.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Sure. But its worth noting that the IETF, ISOC, ICANN, the W3C etc while they may have some things in common, are by no means the same. Many of these discussions will only usefully progress if we drill down beyond the ‘multistakeholder vs multilateral’ etc discussions, and drill down to specifics. </div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
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parminder <br class="">
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