<html><head><base href="x-msg://1324/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Farewell, gentleman Ronald Koven!<div><br><div>Oops we are left with comrade Muller</div><div><br></div><div>The overall tone of this email doesn't take us back to so-called Parminder's charming 70s but closer to the ugly 30s and 40s. MM is missing some good advise regarding his total absence of respect to others in here. I wonder why we have to face his constant arrogance, and why he feels necessary to be so aggressive. Regarding the substance, "Politics" of small of large scale wasn't born in a machine, (except maybe in the mind of a few Nazis). Politics is congruent - at least in a Democracy - to citizenship and public interest. Who's talking about things he knows little about (history of institutional governance?) Technics is not the origins of politics. Human value is pre-condition to politics. Technics? It will adapt to public interest, unless it turns itself in some kind of totalitarian utopia or tyranny.</div><div><br></div><div>PS: As you can note, I didn't write "Oberstumfurher" or "commissar" but "Comrade". Maybe I should have.</div><div><br></div><div>JC</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>Le 2 nov. 2015 à 02:49, Mueller, Milton L a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Optima; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Parminder:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></a></div><div style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">Too much here seems to be hanging on one point that I do not understand what is a p2p technical architecture :). Even though I have said that I did know it, and I would expect people to take such a statement at face value.<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">MM: This is not worth spending a lot of time on, but no, I would not take such a claim at face value. Lots of people claim they know something, but don’t. And someone who describes email as a P2P architecture is clearly confused about the topic. You should thank David for his helpful explanation, learn something, and move on.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">I keep hoping that this Northern project of building the capacity of ignorant people in the South would have some expiry date somewhere, but it does not seem to.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">MM: Let me remind you that no one is accusing “the South” of making a mistake, the charge was directed specifically at you, as an individual. I know you like the think of yourself as “the South” personified but does anyone else? It’s rather petty to play the identity politics card to draw attention away from your own failings.<o:p></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><pre style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; ">This point is rather more substantial. However, still an allegation of a 'confusion' that I do not have. In fact, I myself insist that we do not use technical governance to leverage political solutions,<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">MM: Sorry, but I would still have to say you are deeply confused. People with experience of governance and/or with the history of governance of large technical system know that political/institutional solutions and technical systems have to be congruent. Political or technical, if you want to regulate you have to know what it is you are regulating and how it works. If you don’t know how things work, you won’t know where the politics reside.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Ironically, you were the one who started this thread by couching a political argument in technical terms. The current internet was worse, you said, because it was less P2P and more concentrated. You said that apps were more closed technically, etc. So after making half-baked claims about how the technical system is evolving you shouldn’t be complaining when people expect you to know your tech. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Parminder, political correctness doesn’t trump everything. In other words, if you think that the ardor of your (1970s-vintage) “progressive” religion exempts you from the discipline of knowing what you are talking about, you’re wrong. Maybe you will rally some True Believers looking for a guru but on the whole this is an ideologically diverse, skeptical and secular environment and you can expect your claims to be subject to critical scrutiny.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">--MM<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>