<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>That was very persuasively argued </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">However even in print media the lines tend to blur quite a lot. And newspapers are traditionally sold well below the cost of even printing them, or even distributed free, as they are ad supported. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Now - despite the print media being regulated - it generally requires personal ethics from the paper's editor and management for them to draw a clear line between news and advertising content.<br><br>The internet is much more complex to regulate in this manner as it is largely cross border and trans national in nature. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Network connectivity and broadband pricing is definitely fair game for regulation. However given that the content model of Facebook (to take an example) is by and large user contributed with ads clearly demarcated as such - I don't see very much scope for editorial content or oversight here.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>--srs</div><div><br>On 07-Oct-2015, at 5:10 PM, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<font face="Verdana">Hi Milton<br>
<br>
The problem and differences stem from a higher level. Let me see
if I can explain. You, and evidently the author of this paper,
sees Internet merely in terms of a market, competition and
consumer viewpoint - as is applicable to most economic good and
services that we consume. I, and many others, In fact I think
most, see the Internet foremost as more of a media, as an
essential communication service and as a knowledge space (aligned
to fields like education, etc). The latter areas have always had
public interest regulation standards which were different and much
higher than for any normal market good or service. <br>
<br>
Now, we have to first agree to what should be the basic social,
and thus political (meaning, relating to policy, regulation, etc).
conception of the Internet. And I dont think we agree here. I know
you have for decades been advocating the Internet as a bold new
frontier which unlike earlier communications services need no
special regulation at all. The problem is that I think most civil
society people and groups, including here, do not see the Internet
like that, and connect well to its basic, media, essential
communication services, and knowledge sharing side. <br>
<br>
Having very different socio-political conceptions of the Internet,
there is not much point in diving into the details, like relating
to competition policy issues, of the kind you present below. <br>
<br>
But since the two arguments, 'how can we deny something to those
who have nothing' and 'can we deny the poor their choices' carry
huge rhetoric value, and could even be quite persuasive if not
inspected well, I must respond to them.<br>
<br>
In most countries, media is regulated much beyond normal economic
regulation. For instance, in India, there are regulations vis a
vis clearly demarcating editorial content from paid-for one, even
proportions of time/ space between the two kind of content, and so
on... Now lets say, a media house proposes that it will supply
free or very cheap media especially for and to the poor if it is
allowed to remain unbound by such regulatory 'burden'. My direct
question is: would you recommend that such a thing be allowed,
whether in the name of (argument 1), 'giving something to those
who have nothing', or (argument 2) 'allowing them to exercise
their free choice' (they are responsible adults after all)? I
expect you, but if not you most other people here, to say 'no' to
any such offer. <br>
<br>
That is almost exactly what facebook's zero-rated <a href="http://internet.org">Internet.org</a>
offering is about.. Like the poor cannot be allowed to be fed
trash in the name of media, they cannot be allowed to be fed trash
in the name of the Internet. But then, to understand/ accept this,
you have to see the Internet in certain ways rather than others,
which as I discussed above, I am not sure you do. <br>
<br>
The problem with zero rating is that while it offers some
immediate benefits, it takes the Internet ecology towards long
term structural deformation and destruction... The issue is of
crossing that sacred line regarding the Internet being that which
</font><font face="Verdana"> at once </font><font face="Verdana">connects
us to everyone and everything - and a zero rated service does
not... Once we cross this line, we lose one of the true building
blocks of a different communicative thinking and design that is
behind the Internet that we know, and accept a new kind of a
building block and design, handing it over to the commercial
interests that hate the levelling tendency of the Internet, and
want to build an alternative kind of communicative space which,
while it reaches all ( for it must reach all for them to be
controlled) they can manipulate through different kinds of
gatekeeping. If we allow this most important rule to broken even
once, there will be a cascading effect, with newer and newer
business models, nay Internets, invented which all will be nothing
like the Internet we know. Opposing zero rating is about not
allowing this sared line to be crossed, putting all our weight in
resistance. For if it gets if crossed once, I mean we even
normatively accept it and not just practically, it will let loose
an avalanche which can then never be stopped. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 06 October 2015 09:04 PM,
Mueller, Milton L wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:DM2PR07MB589AA500A950C84F2E19736AC370@DM2PR07MB589.namprd07.prod.outlook.com" type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">At
the TPRC conference there was an interesting paper on
Zero-rating.
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2587542">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2587542</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Unfortunately
it’s not downloadable yet. I attended this session however
and while the methodology of this paper was not strong, it
did raise some interesting questions about the attack on
zero-rating. One of the most eye-opening findings was that
the services or apps that were zero rated did not actually
seem to benefit that much in terms of market share or
demand. I know that minor incidences of zero-rating will not
affect the fear of many that it could be abused by big
players, but if it has truly strong and visible
anti-competitive effects, then one should attack such
practices on an adhoc basis using competition policy, not
oppose all zero-rating in all situations by all market
participants. It seems that zero-rating could be used by
market entrants to gain a foothold in the market and
increase competition in certain instances.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regarding
Facebook and <a href="http://internet.org">Internet.org</a>, let me see if I understand the
argument: No access at all is preferable to limited access,
and we shouldn’t allow anyone to make that choice for
themselves. Is that it? ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
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<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Suresh Ramasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 5, 2015 10:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [governance] A lot of people here will
likely disagree<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But it's interesting to see an
articulate voice advocate "the other side" and call out
some of the commentary on this issue as ill informed and
politically aimed rhetoric <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">Engaging in debate would be useful so
the author of this piece can get a more informed :
balanced and less politically driven perspective of
neutrality<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://m.hindustantimes.com/columns/net-neutrality-war-is-not-just-facebook-versus-internet-mullahs/story-s9eZpZnomaaiz4De8fYfaK.html">http://m.hindustantimes.com/columns/net-neutrality-war-is-not-just-facebook-versus-internet-mullahs/story-s9eZpZnomaaiz4De8fYfaK.html</a><br>
<br>
--srs<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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<br>
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