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<font face="Verdana">McTim<br>
<br>
We have since long given up arguing with each other, and I am
responding only bec you accuse me of trolling. <br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 02 October 2015 07:01 PM,
McTim wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:CACAaNxiULcdMBR6zpf6RLkohK3kn3ff891x85pW6ZwYVkzMBPQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 4:25 AM,
parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class=""> <br>
<br>
<div>On Monday 28 September 2015 10:07 PM, Jeremy
Malcolm wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">snip
<pre>No, not really that at all. They have to be involved because they are
already involved. For now, the decisions of companies like Facebook and
Google about their terms of service and so on are de facto transnational
rules for the Internet, at least as much as the rules that governments
make (collectively or individually). So it impossible to disentangle
these companies from the process of situating those rules within a more
accountable global framework of principle.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Jeremy, basically you are accepting that, in
your view, democracy is no longer feasible or to be
preferred, or both, in matters of Internet governance. </div>
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<div>Now you are just trolling, Jeremy neither said nor
meant what you are saying.</div>
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<br>
Giving corporates a direct role in public policy making is *not*
democratic. In a democracy every person has an equal role to every
other person, and only natural persons have a political role. Now,
if either you or Jeremy wants to say that this is not the definition
of democracy, that is a separate debate, which too I am happy to
pursue. Note that Jeremy is justifying here ' direct involvement' of
corporates in governance on the basis that they hold the maximal
existing power in the digital realm.<br>
<br>
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cite="mid:CACAaNxiULcdMBR6zpf6RLkohK3kn3ff891x85pW6ZwYVkzMBPQ@mail.gmail.com"
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<div>He is merely pointing out the obvious reality.</div>
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<br>
As was the reality in times of early evolution of democracy that a
few feudal lords held most of the land, which still was the most
important productive resource.... So does this reality then mean
that one should support the feudal insistence on much greater
political power than ordinary beings?<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACAaNxiULcdMBR6zpf6RLkohK3kn3ff891x85pW6ZwYVkzMBPQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div class="gmail_extra">
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<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">That is a remarkable
claim/ acceptance, even though it is what has always
underpinned the equal footing multi-stakeholder model. </div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Disagree. What underpins the multi-equal stakeholder
model is the collaborative ethos of the early Internet.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The rest of your argument is based on the above flawed
premises, and so needs no comment.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>McTim</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">To that extent I
commend your honesty and integrity which is much more
than what can be said about most other supporters of the
equal footing model who tend to simply disappear from
any discussion when they are asked to come down to
actual implications (both theoretical and practical) of
such a model.<br>
<br>
That compliment for honesty and forthrightness having
been paid, may I ask you a question. How is your
assertion different from the claims of the feudal class
during early days of the evolution of democracy, say, In
England, for the biggest pie of the national level
political decision making power, on the basis that they
owned large-scale landed property, and thus held control
over the key productive resources of that time - thereby
also setting the de facto rules in most aspects of
contemporary social life, ... This can be seen the
history of the House of Lords, and also the fact that
for a very long time ownership of property was a
condition of enfranchisement....<br>
<br>
What you are advocating, albeit by presenting it as
something inevitable, I see is exactly the same...
Corporates today 'own' the biggest chunks of what are
the contemporary key productive resources, and of what
on the Internet can comparably be called as digital
estate and thus setting in your words 'de facto
transnational rules for the Internet'. You give this as
the logic for why we should accept them to be given a
highly disproportionate role in the political governance
of the Internet and the associated phenomenon. I say
disproportionate because every shareholder, big or
small, of these companies does already have a political
role equal to every other person (minus the difference
that power of various resources make, but lets disregard
that for the moment) .<br>
<br>
What you are presenting is directly a case for digital
fedualism, which equal footing multistakeholderism of
course really is. I am astonished that such a philosophy
can have such widespread support as equal footing
multistakeholderism indeed has in some very dominant
circles of Internet governance. <br>
<br>
Aligning political power to economic power, at
institutional levels and not just in hidden, informal
ways which have always existed, is what the current
global neoliberal design currently is. (An important
traditional role of political power has been to regulate
and rein in the execesses of economic power.) The World
Economic Forum is often considered as its key global
nerve centre, although I'd say it will be more factual
to say that the primary nerve centre is in fact still
solidly inside the US economic and political
establishments. This most important global problem and
danger is extensively recognised among global civil
society movements, and is actively resisted. It is the
fact that these dangerous global developments are, on
the other hand, actually supported by a big chunk of
civil society in the Internet governance space which
creates a significant dissonance that this space has
with the mainstream global civil society. <br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
parminder</font></span><span class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <br>
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-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where
it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel</div>
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