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Chris,<br>
<br>
Are you suggesting that the entity reside in a nation that would
give it a negotiated form of diplomatic immunity?<br>
<br>
Tom Lowenhaupt<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/10/2015 6:43 AM, Chris Prince
Udochukwu Njoku wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOz-jXSR0tQFx8RV4Rtw_O=RbsHSNnRwQbZCsYA-9QTXBV-cnQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">Parminder is emphasizing a true point. An
organization which represents the interests of many nations,
though located in one nation (as it must be) must not be
subjected to laws that ought to be (and are) for national
organizations. This should be the definition of international
jurisdiction here. If the host nation's laws don't actually
accommodate the multinational stakeholding nature of the
organization, it's a ripe clue to the need for relocation to a
place that is more friendly to the organization's operations. </p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 10, 2015 11:27 AM, "parminder"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 09:09 PM, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami
School of<br>
Law wrote:<br>
> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, parminder wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Are you saying that it is not possible for ICANN to
undertake the<br>
>> functions that it needs to<br>
>> undertake while being an international institution
incorporated under<br>
>> international law, and free<br>
>> from any countries jurisdiction in terms of its basic
governance<br>
>> functions? I just want to be clear.<br>
><br>
> I don't know what an "an international institution
incorporated under<br>
> international law" is except bodies like FIFA (under
Swiss law), or UN<br>
> bodies, or sui generis treaty bodies. It is certainly
*possible* for<br>
> ICANN to have any of those statuses and to "function"; as
far as I can<br>
> tell, however, it's just not possible to build in
meaningful<br>
> accountability in those structures.<br>
<br>
There are of course problems and issues everywhere, but it can
hardly be<br>
said that UN and/or treaty bodies work without meaningful<br>
accountability. Further, any new international treaty/ law
establishing<br>
a new body - an really international ICANN for instance - can
write all<br>
the accountability method it or we want to have written in it.<br>
><br>
> There is no general international law of incorporation of
which I am<br>
> aware. Corporate (formation) law is all national law.
That is the<br>
> reality that must be confronted. There is no place I can
go to get an<br>
> international corporate charter, and good thing too - why
should I be<br>
> able to exempt myself from national law?<br>
<br>
This hits a fundamental issue - I see ICANN, in its ideal
form, as a<br>
governance body, since it does governance functions, and not
as a<br>
private corporation. So we need a new international treaty
sanctifying<br>
ICANN as a global governance body - with its basic forms
largely<br>
unchanged, with new accountability means (including judicial<br>
accountability) and not ways to be able incorporate a private
kind of an<br>
entity outside national laws, which is admittedly both very
difficult,<br>
and rather undesirable.<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> If so, that would be an interesting assertion. Now, I
am sure this is<br>
>> not true. However, I am not an<br>
>> international legal expert and not able to right now
build and<br>
>> present the whole scenario for you on<br>
>> how it can be done. I am sure there are a number of
international<br>
>> organisations that do different<br>
>> kind of complex activities and have found ways to do
it under<br>
>> international law and jurisdiction.<br>
><br>
> But those are in the main treaty bodies.<br>
><br>
>> And if some new directions and evolutions are needed
that can also be<br>
>> worked out (please see my last<br>
>> email on this count).<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Here we just disagree. I see the task as monsterously
hard, the work<br>
> of a decade or more.<br>
><br>
>> BTW it is a sad statement on the geo political
economy of knowledge<br>
>> production in this area that<br>
>> there is not one full fledged scenario developed by
anyone on how<br>
>> ICANN can undertakes its<br>
>> activities under international law/ jurisdiction -
which I am pretty<br>
>> sure it can. Many parties,<br>
>> including governments have called for it, and yes I
agree someone<br>
>> should come up with a full<br>
>> politico-legal and institutional description of how
it can and should<br>
>> be done - with all the details<br>
>> in place. And that is the sad part of it, of how
things stand at the<br>
>> global level, had now lopsided<br>
>> is resource distribution, all kinds of resources.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Alas.<br>
><br>
>> Not to shy away from responsibility - I am happy to
collaborate with<br>
>> anyone if someone can out time<br>
>> into it.<br>
>><br>
>> And no, it cannot be solved by any other country
jurisdiction. Apart<br>
>> from it being still being wrong<br>
>> in principle, how would US accept that another
jurisdiction is better<br>
>> than its own and accede to<br>
>> such a change. Accepting the patently justified fact
that an<br>
>> international infrastructure should be<br>
>> governed internationally, on the other hand, is much
easier .<br>
>><br>
><br>
> I would not dismiss this so quickly. I take a
substantial fraction of<br>
> the opposition to US residual control (for that is all we
are talking<br>
> about) to be tied to the US's status as defacto hegemon.
Moving ICANN<br>
> to another state with a strong human rights record would
answer that<br>
> part of the critique.<br>
><br>
> In my view, a bespoke international structure is actually
much harder<br>
> -- it would need to be invented almost from scratch. And
it is bound<br>
> to be flawed; national rules are the result of at least
decades if not<br>
> more of trial and error.<br>
><br>
>> parminder<br>
>><br>
>> On Tuesday 09 June 2015 07:31 PM, Michael Froomkin -
U.Miami School<br>
>> of Law wrote:<br>
>> I don't know what it means to say that ICANN
should be subject<br>
>> to "international<br>
>> jurisdiction and law". For the relevant
issues, that sounds<br>
>> like a pretty empty set.<br>
>><br>
>> As regards most of the sort of things one might
expect to worry<br>
>> about - e.g. fidelity to<br>
>> articles of incorporation - international law
is basically<br>
>> silent. And there is no<br>
>> relevant jurisdiction either. So I remain
stuck in the<br>
>> position that there must be a<br>
>> state anchor whose courts are given the job.
It does not of<br>
>> course need to be the US,<br>
>> although I would note that the US courts are by
international<br>
>> standards not shy and<br>
>> actually fairly good at this sort of thing.<br>
>><br>
>> I do think, however, that it should NOT be
Switzerland, as its<br>
>> courts are historically<br>
>> over-deferential to international bodies -
perhaps as part of<br>
>> state policy to be an<br>
>> attractive location for those high-spending
international<br>
>> meetings.<br>
>><br>
>> I'd be real happy with Canada, though.<br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, parminder wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Tuesday 09 June 2015 06:26 PM, Michael
Froomkin -<br>
>> U.Miami School of Law<br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I think that bodies which do not
need to fear<br>
>> supervision by<br>
>> legitimate courts end up<br>
>> like FIFA. FIFA had a legal status
in Switzerland<br>
>> that basically<br>
>> insulated it the way<br>
>> that the Brazilian document seems
to suggest would<br>
>> be what they want<br>
>> for ICANN. (It's<br>
>> also the legal status ICANN has at
times suggested<br>
>> it would like.)<br>
>><br>
>> The lesson of history seems
unusually clear here.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Agree that ICANN cannot be left
jurisdictionally<br>
>> un-supervised - that may be<br>
>> even more dangerous<br>
>> than the present situation. However, the
right<br>
>> supervision or oversight is<br>
>> of international<br>
>> jurisdiction and law, not that of the US
. This is what<br>
>> Brazil has to make<br>
>> upfront as the<br>
>> implication of what it is really seeking,
and its shyness<br>
>> and reticence to<br>
>> say so is what I noted as<br>
>> surprising in an earlier email in this
thread. Not<br>
>> putting out clearly what<br>
>> exactly it wants would<br>
>> lead to misconceptions about its
position, which IMHO can<br>
>> be seen from how<br>
>> Michael reads it. I am<br>
>> sure this is not how Brazil meant it - to
free ICANN from<br>
>> all kinds of<br>
>> jurisdictional oversight<br>
>> whatsoever - but then Brazil needs to say
clearly what is<br>
>> it that it wants,<br>
>> and how can it can<br>
>> obtained. Brazil, please come out of your
NetMundial<br>
>> hangover and take<br>
>> political responsibility for<br>
>> what you say and seek!<br>
>><br>
>> parminder<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Mawaki Chango
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> It's good to see a law
scholar involved in<br>
>> this discussion. I'll<br>
>> leave it to<br>
>> the Brazilian party to<br>
>> ultimate tell whether your
reading is correct<br>
>> or not. In the<br>
>> meantime I'd<br>
>> volunteer the following<br>
>> comments.<br>
>><br>
>> On Jun 8, 2015 10:46 PM,
"Michael Froomkin -<br>
>> U.Miami School of<br>
>> Law"<br>
>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:froomkin@law.miami.edu">froomkin@law.miami.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Perhaps I'm misreading
something, but I<br>
>> read this document to<br>
>> make the<br>
>> following assertions:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 1. All restrictions on
ICANN's location<br>
>> must be removed.<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> And the question reopened for
deliberation by<br>
>> all stakeholders,<br>
>> including<br>
>> governments among others.<br>
>> Only the outcome of such
deliberation will be<br>
>> fully legitimate<br>
>> within the<br>
>> framework of the post-2015<br>
>> ICANN.<br>
>><br>
>> > 2. ICANN does not have
to leave the US but<br>
>> must be located in<br>
>> a place<br>
>> where the governing law has<br>
>> certain characteristics,
including not having<br>
>> the possibiliity<br>
>> that courts<br>
>> overrule ICANN (or at<br>
>> least the IRP).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > (And, as it happens, the
US is not such a<br>
>> place....)<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> Not only avoiding courts
overruling relevant<br>
>> outcomes of the<br>
>> Internet global<br>
>> community processes,<br>
>> but also examining and
resolving the possible<br>
>> interferences/conflicts that<br>
>> might arise for<br>
>> government representatives
being subject to a<br>
>> foreign country<br>
>> law simply in<br>
>> the process of attending<br>
>> to their regular duties (if
they were to be<br>
>> fully engaged with<br>
>> ICANN).<br>
>><br>
>> Quote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> "From the Brazilian perspective the existing
structure clearly imposes limits to the participation<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ???of governmental representatives, as it is
unlikely that a representative of a foreign government<br>
>> w<br>
>> i<br>
>> ll be authorized (by its own government) to formally
accept a position in a body pertaining to a U.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> S. corporation."<br>
>><br>
>> This may be what you're
getting at with your<br>
>> point 3 below, but<br>
>> I'm not sure<br>
>> whether the problem is<br>
>> only the fact that
governments have to deal<br>
>> with a corporate<br>
>> form/law or<br>
>> whether it is altogether<br>
>> the fact that it is a single
country law<br>
>> without any form of<br>
>> deliberate<br>
>> endorsement by the other<br>
>> governments (who also have
law making power<br>
>> in their respective<br>
>> country just<br>
>> as the US government).<br>
>><br>
>> Assuming your reading is
correct, and if<br>
>> necessary complemented<br>
>> by my<br>
>> remarks above, I'd be<br>
>> interested in hearing from
you about any<br>
>> issues you may see with<br>
>> the BR gov<br>
>> comments.<br>
>> Thanks,<br>
>><br>
>> Mawaki<br>
>><br>
>> ><br>
>> > 3. ICANN doesn't have to
change its form,<br>
>> but it needs a form<br>
>> where<br>
>> governments are comfortable.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > (And, as it happens, the
corporate form is<br>
>> not such a<br>
>> form....)<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > What am I missing?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Sat, 6 Jun 2015,
Carlos A. Afonso wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> For the ones who are
following the IANA<br>
>> transition process:<br>
>> attached<br>
>> >> please find the
comments posted by the<br>
>> government of Brazil<br>
>> on June 03,<br>
>> >> 2015, in response to
the call for public<br>
>> comments on the<br>
>> >> CCWG-Accountability
Initial Draft Proposal.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I generally agree
with the comments.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> fraternal regards<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --c.a.<br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > A. Michael Froomkin, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://law.tm" target="_blank">http://law.tm</a><br>
>> > Laurie Silvers &
Mitchell Rubenstein<br>
>> Distinguished Professor<br>
>> of Law<br>
>> > Editor, Jotwell: The
Journal of Things We<br>
>> Like (Lots),<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://jotwell.com" target="_blank">jotwell.com</a><br>
>> > Program Chair, We Robot
2016 | +1 (305)<br>
>> 284-4285 |<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:froomkin@law.tm">froomkin@law.tm</a><br>
>> > U. Miami School of Law,
P.O. Box 248087,<br>
>> Coral Gables, FL<br>
>> 33124 USA<br>
>> >
-->It's warm here.<--<br>
>> ><br>
>>
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