<p dir="ltr">Parminder is emphasizing a true point. An organization which represents the interests of many nations, though located in one nation (as it must be) must not be subjected to laws that ought to be (and are) for national organizations. This should be the definition of international jurisdiction here. If the host nation's laws don't actually accommodate the multinational stakeholding nature of the organization, it's a ripe clue to the need for relocation to a place that is more friendly to the organization's operations. </p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 10, 2015 11:27 AM, "parminder" <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 09:09 PM, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of<br>
Law wrote:<br>
> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, parminder wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Are you saying that it is not possible for ICANN to undertake the<br>
>> functions that it needs to<br>
>> undertake while being an international institution incorporated under<br>
>> international law, and free<br>
>> from any countries jurisdiction in terms of its basic governance<br>
>> functions? I just want to be clear.<br>
><br>
> I don't know what an "an international institution incorporated under<br>
> international law" is except bodies like FIFA (under Swiss law), or UN<br>
> bodies, or sui generis treaty bodies. It is certainly *possible* for<br>
> ICANN to have any of those statuses and to "function"; as far as I can<br>
> tell, however, it's just not possible to build in meaningful<br>
> accountability in those structures.<br>
<br>
There are of course problems and issues everywhere, but it can hardly be<br>
said that UN and/or treaty bodies work without meaningful<br>
accountability. Further, any new international treaty/ law establishing<br>
a new body - an really international ICANN for instance - can write all<br>
the accountability method it or we want to have written in it.<br>
><br>
> There is no general international law of incorporation of which I am<br>
> aware. Corporate (formation) law is all national law. That is the<br>
> reality that must be confronted. There is no place I can go to get an<br>
> international corporate charter, and good thing too - why should I be<br>
> able to exempt myself from national law?<br>
<br>
This hits a fundamental issue - I see ICANN, in its ideal form, as a<br>
governance body, since it does governance functions, and not as a<br>
private corporation. So we need a new international treaty sanctifying<br>
ICANN as a global governance body - with its basic forms largely<br>
unchanged, with new accountability means (including judicial<br>
accountability) and not ways to be able incorporate a private kind of an<br>
entity outside national laws, which is admittedly both very difficult,<br>
and rather undesirable.<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> If so, that would be an interesting assertion. Now, I am sure this is<br>
>> not true. However, I am not an<br>
>> international legal expert and not able to right now build and<br>
>> present the whole scenario for you on<br>
>> how it can be done. I am sure there are a number of international<br>
>> organisations that do different<br>
>> kind of complex activities and have found ways to do it under<br>
>> international law and jurisdiction.<br>
><br>
> But those are in the main treaty bodies.<br>
><br>
>> And if some new directions and evolutions are needed that can also be<br>
>> worked out (please see my last<br>
>> email on this count).<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Here we just disagree. I see the task as monsterously hard, the work<br>
> of a decade or more.<br>
><br>
>> BTW it is a sad statement on the geo political economy of knowledge<br>
>> production in this area that<br>
>> there is not one full fledged scenario developed by anyone on how<br>
>> ICANN can undertakes its<br>
>> activities under international law/ jurisdiction - which I am pretty<br>
>> sure it can. Many parties,<br>
>> including governments have called for it, and yes I agree someone<br>
>> should come up with a full<br>
>> politico-legal and institutional description of how it can and should<br>
>> be done - with all the details<br>
>> in place. And that is the sad part of it, of how things stand at the<br>
>> global level, had now lopsided<br>
>> is resource distribution, all kinds of resources.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Alas.<br>
><br>
>> Not to shy away from responsibility - I am happy to collaborate with<br>
>> anyone if someone can out time<br>
>> into it.<br>
>><br>
>> And no, it cannot be solved by any other country jurisdiction. Apart<br>
>> from it being still being wrong<br>
>> in principle, how would US accept that another jurisdiction is better<br>
>> than its own and accede to<br>
>> such a change. Accepting the patently justified fact that an<br>
>> international infrastructure should be<br>
>> governed internationally, on the other hand, is much easier .<br>
>><br>
><br>
> I would not dismiss this so quickly. I take a substantial fraction of<br>
> the opposition to US residual control (for that is all we are talking<br>
> about) to be tied to the US's status as defacto hegemon. Moving ICANN<br>
> to another state with a strong human rights record would answer that<br>
> part of the critique.<br>
><br>
> In my view, a bespoke international structure is actually much harder<br>
> -- it would need to be invented almost from scratch. And it is bound<br>
> to be flawed; national rules are the result of at least decades if not<br>
> more of trial and error.<br>
><br>
>> parminder<br>
>><br>
>> On Tuesday 09 June 2015 07:31 PM, Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School<br>
>> of Law wrote:<br>
>> I don't know what it means to say that ICANN should be subject<br>
>> to "international<br>
>> jurisdiction and law". For the relevant issues, that sounds<br>
>> like a pretty empty set.<br>
>><br>
>> As regards most of the sort of things one might expect to worry<br>
>> about - e.g. fidelity to<br>
>> articles of incorporation - international law is basically<br>
>> silent. And there is no<br>
>> relevant jurisdiction either. So I remain stuck in the<br>
>> position that there must be a<br>
>> state anchor whose courts are given the job. It does not of<br>
>> course need to be the US,<br>
>> although I would note that the US courts are by international<br>
>> standards not shy and<br>
>> actually fairly good at this sort of thing.<br>
>><br>
>> I do think, however, that it should NOT be Switzerland, as its<br>
>> courts are historically<br>
>> over-deferential to international bodies - perhaps as part of<br>
>> state policy to be an<br>
>> attractive location for those high-spending international<br>
>> meetings.<br>
>><br>
>> I'd be real happy with Canada, though.<br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, parminder wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Tuesday 09 June 2015 06:26 PM, Michael Froomkin -<br>
>> U.Miami School of Law<br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I think that bodies which do not need to fear<br>
>> supervision by<br>
>> legitimate courts end up<br>
>> like FIFA. FIFA had a legal status in Switzerland<br>
>> that basically<br>
>> insulated it the way<br>
>> that the Brazilian document seems to suggest would<br>
>> be what they want<br>
>> for ICANN. (It's<br>
>> also the legal status ICANN has at times suggested<br>
>> it would like.)<br>
>><br>
>> The lesson of history seems unusually clear here.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Agree that ICANN cannot be left jurisdictionally<br>
>> un-supervised - that may be<br>
>> even more dangerous<br>
>> than the present situation. However, the right<br>
>> supervision or oversight is<br>
>> of international<br>
>> jurisdiction and law, not that of the US . This is what<br>
>> Brazil has to make<br>
>> upfront as the<br>
>> implication of what it is really seeking, and its shyness<br>
>> and reticence to<br>
>> say so is what I noted as<br>
>> surprising in an earlier email in this thread. Not<br>
>> putting out clearly what<br>
>> exactly it wants would<br>
>> lead to misconceptions about its position, which IMHO can<br>
>> be seen from how<br>
>> Michael reads it. I am<br>
>> sure this is not how Brazil meant it - to free ICANN from<br>
>> all kinds of<br>
>> jurisdictional oversight<br>
>> whatsoever - but then Brazil needs to say clearly what is<br>
>> it that it wants,<br>
>> and how can it can<br>
>> obtained. Brazil, please come out of your NetMundial<br>
>> hangover and take<br>
>> political responsibility for<br>
>> what you say and seek!<br>
>><br>
>> parminder<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Mawaki Chango wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> It's good to see a law scholar involved in<br>
>> this discussion. I'll<br>
>> leave it to<br>
>> the Brazilian party to<br>
>> ultimate tell whether your reading is correct<br>
>> or not. In the<br>
>> meantime I'd<br>
>> volunteer the following<br>
>> comments.<br>
>><br>
>> On Jun 8, 2015 10:46 PM, "Michael Froomkin -<br>
>> U.Miami School of<br>
>> Law"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:froomkin@law.miami.edu">froomkin@law.miami.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Perhaps I'm misreading something, but I<br>
>> read this document to<br>
>> make the<br>
>> following assertions:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 1. All restrictions on ICANN's location<br>
>> must be removed.<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> And the question reopened for deliberation by<br>
>> all stakeholders,<br>
>> including<br>
>> governments among others.<br>
>> Only the outcome of such deliberation will be<br>
>> fully legitimate<br>
>> within the<br>
>> framework of the post-2015<br>
>> ICANN.<br>
>><br>
>> > 2. ICANN does not have to leave the US but<br>
>> must be located in<br>
>> a place<br>
>> where the governing law has<br>
>> certain characteristics, including not having<br>
>> the possibiliity<br>
>> that courts<br>
>> overrule ICANN (or at<br>
>> least the IRP).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > (And, as it happens, the US is not such a<br>
>> place....)<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> Not only avoiding courts overruling relevant<br>
>> outcomes of the<br>
>> Internet global<br>
>> community processes,<br>
>> but also examining and resolving the possible<br>
>> interferences/conflicts that<br>
>> might arise for<br>
>> government representatives being subject to a<br>
>> foreign country<br>
>> law simply in<br>
>> the process of attending<br>
>> to their regular duties (if they were to be<br>
>> fully engaged with<br>
>> ICANN).<br>
>><br>
>> Quote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> "From the Brazilian perspective the existing structure clearly imposes limits to the participation<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ???of governmental representatives, as it is unlikely that a representative of a foreign government<br>
>> w<br>
>> i<br>
>> ll be authorized (by its own government) to formally accept a position in a body pertaining to a U.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> S. corporation."<br>
>><br>
>> This may be what you're getting at with your<br>
>> point 3 below, but<br>
>> I'm not sure<br>
>> whether the problem is<br>
>> only the fact that governments have to deal<br>
>> with a corporate<br>
>> form/law or<br>
>> whether it is altogether<br>
>> the fact that it is a single country law<br>
>> without any form of<br>
>> deliberate<br>
>> endorsement by the other<br>
>> governments (who also have law making power<br>
>> in their respective<br>
>> country just<br>
>> as the US government).<br>
>><br>
>> Assuming your reading is correct, and if<br>
>> necessary complemented<br>
>> by my<br>
>> remarks above, I'd be<br>
>> interested in hearing from you about any<br>
>> issues you may see with<br>
>> the BR gov<br>
>> comments.<br>
>> Thanks,<br>
>><br>
>> Mawaki<br>
>><br>
>> ><br>
>> > 3. ICANN doesn't have to change its form,<br>
>> but it needs a form<br>
>> where<br>
>> governments are comfortable.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > (And, as it happens, the corporate form is<br>
>> not such a<br>
>> form....)<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > What am I missing?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Sat, 6 Jun 2015, Carlos A. Afonso wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> For the ones who are following the IANA<br>
>> transition process:<br>
>> attached<br>
>> >> please find the comments posted by the<br>
>> government of Brazil<br>
>> on June 03,<br>
>> >> 2015, in response to the call for public<br>
>> comments on the<br>
>> >> CCWG-Accountability Initial Draft Proposal.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I generally agree with the comments.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> fraternal regards<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --c.a.<br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > A. Michael Froomkin, <a href="http://law.tm" target="_blank">http://law.tm</a><br>
>> > Laurie Silvers & Mitchell Rubenstein<br>
>> Distinguished Professor<br>
>> of Law<br>
>> > Editor, Jotwell: The Journal of Things We<br>
>> Like (Lots),<br>
>> <a href="http://jotwell.com" target="_blank">jotwell.com</a><br>
>> > Program Chair, We Robot 2016 | +1 (305)<br>
>> 284-4285 |<br>
>> <a href="mailto:froomkin@law.tm">froomkin@law.tm</a><br>
>> > U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087,<br>
>> Coral Gables, FL<br>
>> 33124 USA<br>
>> > -->It's warm here.<--<br>
>> ><br>
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