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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 09 June 2015 07:39 PM,
Matthias C. Kettemann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALjW9_=P77YShy9FqdveqPTOWsHpPUnu8E9a7FUuHVZ8xRCeeQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear all, <br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_extra">we should really be careful in using
legal terminology. "International jurisdiction" usually means
that in light of an international set of facts the courts of a
certain country will be most suited to hear the case (see e.g.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ec.europa.eu/justice/glossary/international-jurisdiction_en.htm">here</a>).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That is one definition of the term, looking at it from a domestic
point of view. <a href="International%20jurisdiction">Here</a> is
another way to look at it, coming from a global point of view - and
of course this current discussion comes from a global point of view.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALjW9_=P77YShy9FqdveqPTOWsHpPUnu8E9a7FUuHVZ8xRCeeQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"> Conflicts of jurisdiciton (and
conflicts of law) are a daily occurence in online settings.
International courts, however, are a different matter
entirely. They are few and far between and, in their present
design, are not in a position to ensure accountability. For
that we need more permanent oversight structures. I'm not
convinced that only a national legal anchor can do the trick.
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That is the point. So then what international option do we have? If
we are to live a common digital future, with an adequately global
Internet, we have to find the necessary legal and political ways to
do it, even if they do not exist today. I am much more convinced
than others here that there is enough existing that can be evolved
in the right direction - but to do that the political will has to
first be stated and worked with.<br>
<br>
If international law and jurisdiction can be begun to be evolved in
such a complex and contested area like international crime, it
should certainly be so much easier to do with regard to management
of basic techno-logical infrastructure of the Internet, where there
is, at least at present, so less to dispute, and the positive
advantage so huge.<br>
<br>
Please note this sentence from the submission of Roberto Bissio, a
top global civil society leader, made to the CCWG process - he is an
official adviser to the process. (This submission was earlier
forwarded by Carlos to these elists, but I am enclosing it again.)<br>
<br>
"The International Criminal Court was negotiated and ratified in as
much time as the discussion of the governance of ICANN is already
taking."<br>
<br>
Does this say something?<br>
<br>
And do we not know what kind of international innovations are daily
invented, like in the area of IP enforcement, and trade dispute
settlement, and now also 'investor protection' for global corporates
from domestic policies/ law and even courts, when it is in the
interest of the most powerful countries. Why do we then shy away
from institutional innovations when genuine public interest is
involved. It is a case of greater internationalisation where it
suits them, and full scepticism about international law and
jurisdiction where is does not. That is not ok.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALjW9_=P77YShy9FqdveqPTOWsHpPUnu8E9a7FUuHVZ8xRCeeQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">International law, however, does not
yet provide for accountability structures for the 'management'
and administration of the stability, security etc. of the
global Internet.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Kind regards<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
Matthias<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:49 PM,
"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"
target="_blank">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi
Parminder,<br>
<br>
can you specify what do you understand under
"international jurisdiction"? Do you want to create an
"International (Internet) Court"? Do you want to have
ICANN under the International Court of Justice in The
Hague? International Courts are created by
intergovernmental treaties. Here is a list of
"International Courts":<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_court"
target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_court</a>.<br>
<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>
Von: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
im Auftrag von parminder<br>
Gesendet: Di <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:09.06.2015%2015" value="+49906201515">09.06.2015
15</a>:41<br>
An: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law; Mawaki Chango<br>
Betreff: Re: [governance] IANA transition - BR Gov
comments on the CCWG-Accountability Draft Proposal<br>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 06:26 PM, Michael Froomkin -
U.Miami School of<br>
Law wrote:<br>
><br>
> I think that bodies which do not need to fear
supervision by<br>
> legitimate courts end up like FIFA. FIFA had a
legal status in<br>
> Switzerland that basically insulated it the way
that the Brazilian<br>
> document seems to suggest would be what they want
for ICANN. (It's<br>
> also the legal status ICANN has at times
suggested it would like.)<br>
><br>
> The lesson of history seems unusually clear here.<br>
<br>
Agree that ICANN cannot be left jurisdictionally
un-supervised - that<br>
may be even more dangerous than the present situation.
However, the<br>
right supervision or oversight is of international
jurisdiction and law,<br>
not that of the US . This is what Brazil has to make
upfront as the<br>
implication of what it is really seeking, and its
shyness and reticence<br>
to say so is what I noted as surprising in an earlier
email in this<br>
thread. Not putting out clearly what exactly it wants
would lead to<br>
misconceptions about its position, which IMHO can be
seen from how<br>
Michael reads it. I am sure this is not how Brazil
meant it - to free<br>
ICANN from all kinds of jurisdictional oversight
whatsoever - but then<br>
Brazil needs to say clearly what is it that it wants,
and how can it can<br>
obtained. Brazil, please come out of your NetMundial
hangover and take<br>
political responsibility for what you say and seek!<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Mawaki Chango wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> It's good to see a law scholar involved in
this discussion. I'll<br>
>> leave it to the Brazilian party to<br>
>> ultimate tell whether your reading is correct
or not. In the meantime<br>
>> I'd volunteer the following<br>
>> comments.<br>
>><br>
>> On Jun 8, 2015 10:46 PM, "Michael Froomkin -
U.Miami School of Law"<br>
>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:froomkin@law.miami.edu">froomkin@law.miami.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Perhaps I'm misreading something, but I
read this document to make<br>
>> the following assertions:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 1. All restrictions on ICANN's location
must be removed.<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> And the question reopened for deliberation by
all stakeholders,<br>
>> including governments among others.<br>
>> Only the outcome of such deliberation will be
fully legitimate within<br>
>> the framework of the post-2015<br>
>> ICANN.<br>
>><br>
>> > 2. ICANN does not have to leave the US
but must be located in a<br>
>> place where the governing law has<br>
>> certain characteristics, including not having
the possibiliity that<br>
>> courts overrule ICANN (or at<br>
>> least the IRP).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > (And, as it happens, the US is not such
a place....)<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> Not only avoiding courts overruling relevant
outcomes of the Internet<br>
>> global community processes,<br>
>> but also examining and resolving the possible
interferences/conflicts<br>
>> that might arise for<br>
>> government representatives being subject to a
foreign country law<br>
>> simply in the process of attending<br>
>> to their regular duties (if they were to be
fully engaged with ICANN).<br>
>><br>
>> Quote:<br>
>> "From the Brazilian perspective the existing
structure clearly imposes limits to the participation<br>
>><br>
> ??<br>
> ?of governmental representatives, as it is
unlikely that a representative of a foreign government
wi<br>
>> ll be authorized (by its own government) to
formally accept a position in a body pertaining to a
U.<br>
>><br>
>> S. corporation."<br>
>><br>
>> This may be what you're getting at with your
point 3 below, but I'm<br>
>> not sure whether the problem is<br>
>> only the fact that governments have to deal
with a corporate form/law<br>
>> or whether it is altogether<br>
>> the fact that it is a single country law
without any form of<br>
>> deliberate endorsement by the other<br>
>> governments (who also have law making power
in their respective<br>
>> country just as the US government).<br>
>><br>
>> Assuming your reading is correct, and if
necessary complemented by my<br>
>> remarks above, I'd be<br>
>> interested in hearing from you about any
issues you may see with the<br>
>> BR gov comments.<br>
>> Thanks,<br>
>><br>
>> Mawaki<br>
>><br>
>> ><br>
>> > 3. ICANN doesn't have to change its
form, but it needs a form where<br>
>> governments are comfortable.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > (And, as it happens, the corporate form
is not such a form....)<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > What am I missing?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Sat, 6 Jun 2015, Carlos A. Afonso
wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> For the ones who are following the
IANA transition process: attached<br>
>> >> please find the comments posted by
the government of Brazil on<br>
>> June 03,<br>
>> >> 2015, in response to the call for
public comments on the<br>
>> >> CCWG-Accountability Initial Draft
Proposal.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I generally agree with the comments.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> fraternal regards<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --c.a.<br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > A. Michael Froomkin, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://law.tm"
target="_blank">http://law.tm</a><br>
>> > Laurie Silvers & Mitchell Rubenstein
Distinguished Professor of Law<br>
>> > Editor, Jotwell: The Journal of Things
We Like (Lots), <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://jotwell.com" target="_blank">jotwell.com</a><br>
>> > Program Chair, We Robot 2016 | <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28305%29%20284-4285"
value="+13052844285">+1 (305) 284-4285</a> | <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:froomkin@law.tm">froomkin@law.tm</a><br>
>> > U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087,
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA<br>
>> > -->It's warm
here.<--<br>
>> >
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<br>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">
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<p>Dr. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M.
(Harvard)<br>
<span lang="EN-US">Post-Doc Fellow |
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.normativeorders.net/de/organisation/mitarbeiter-a-z/person/442"
target="_blank">Cluster of
Excellence „</a></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.normativeorders.net/de/organisation/mitarbeiter-a-z/person/442"
target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">Normative
Orders</span></a><span
lang="EN-US"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.normativeorders.net/de/organisation/mitarbeiter-a-z/person/442"
target="_blank">”</a>, University
of Frankfurt am Main<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US">Lecturer | </span><span
lang="EN-US"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://voelkerrecht.uni-graz.at/en/"
target="_blank">Institute of
International Law andInternational
Relations</a>, University of Graz<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US"></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://trainingszentrum-menschenrechte.uni-graz.at/en/infos-fuer-studierende/"
target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US"></span></a></p>
<p>Goethe-Universität Frankfurt am Main<br>
Exzellenzcluster „Normative Ordnungen“<br>
Max-Horkheimer-Straße 2<br>
60629 Frankfurt am Main / Germany</p>
<span>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">E | <a
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">Recent
publications: <a
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href="http://www.intersentia.co.uk/searchDetail.aspx?bookId=103066&authors=Wolfgang"
style="font-size:10pt"
target="_blank"><br>
The Common Interest in
International Law (2014,
co-editor)</a> <a
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href="http://www.nwv.at/recht/verfassungsrecht/1077_european_yearbook_on_human_rights_2014/"
style="font-size:10pt"
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European Yearbook on Human Rights
2014 (2014, co-editor)</a><span
style="font-size:10pt"><a
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href="https://book.coe.int/eur/en/human-rights-and-democracy/5810-freedom-of-expression-and-the-internet.html"
target="_blank"><br>
Freedom
of Expression and the Internet
(2014, co-author)</a></span><span
lang="EN-US"></span>
</p>
</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div>
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