<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 29 May 2015, at 3:55 pm, Jean-Christophe Nothias <<a href="mailto:jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com" class="">jeanchristophe.nothias@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class="">- <b class="">David</b> (Cake)</div><div class="">> Corruption has little to do with a system based on national representation. Study, source? I mean more than within the private sector, or any other space.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I was simply pointing out that FIFA is based on a system of direct voting based on national representatives. In this it somewhat loosely resembles, say, some ITU processes, more so than multi-stakeholder processes. I’m simply saying that neither recorded direct voting or a system based only on gatekeepered national representatives have prevented significant corruption in this case. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Some prominent JNC members have been quite explicit in saying that they prefer the UN or ITU model, in which ultimate decision making, and in particular selection of senior officials, goes to a direct ballot in which each nation has a single vote. Notably FIFA uses a similar model. And is allegedly, despite a massive corruption scandal, about to re-select the same leadership. In particular, an administration very unpopular with large nations in Western Europe (though popular with some other large nations, like Russia) is likely to be re-elected by votes from a large number of small nations. I’m not implying that the voting model always leads to flawed results (of course there are many other factors), but FIFA certainly represents an obvious counter-example to claims it prevents corruption, and has some parallels to criticisms often made of UN processes. </div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In short, if there is, as Michael contends, some lesson to be learnt from FIFA in regards to the IANA transition and ICANN it is this - be wary of a 1 vote per nation, UN style, model, as if anything it increases accountability and transparency issues. Those of us within ICANN have already seen this time and again in the ICANN GAC. </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class="">> Thanks for acknowledging that "accountability and TRANSPARENCY are important factors". Maybe Jeremy should talk to you about this, as he has difficulties to talk to JNC about such critical issue.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Within ICANN, transparency per se is an issue, but the biggest transparency issue is accountability not transparency - transparency standards are generally quite high, but the accountability mechanisms are lacking to enforce them when they are really needed. In most ICANN policy processes, every meeting is open to anyone to listen, is recorded, recordings and transcripts are made available, every full participant has lodged an SOI, and so one. But yet when you might to find out which senior staff member made a particular dubious decision, suddenly the staff will have difficulty finding those documents or similar. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I don’t think this invalidates Jeremy’s critique of Parminders plan. NGOs are participants, not management. I agree the suggested mechanism through CSCG is inappropriate. I think there are other, more appropriate, mechanisms for NGO transparency. And like many others, I suspect that the results of the process will be an excuse for the JNC to continue to focus on matters internal to CS, lambasting those of us who dare to be funded by those Parminder dislikes (the US government and corporations), if anything actively interfering with the ability of CS to actively engage in the IG space. Not that I think transparency is bad - my own org publishes its accounts, as do many others - but it seems a poorly thought out proposal that puts the focus on the wrong place (on the ‘purity’ of CS participants, rather than accountability and transparency within IG decision making processes themselves). </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class="">> JNC focusing on games at "democracy"? JNC has called for more transparency among participants to the current IG space: would that be playing game or would it be "focusing on the practical push for accountability..." Not sure who is getting confused here.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I was assuming we all had the level of perspective to consider discussions had within, say, the last couple of months. Or even, when discussing the IANA transition process, to understand that I was referring to actions made over the entire IANA transition process, not comments made on the IGC list on a different topic in the last few days. Apparently not. So let me clarify - when I was talking about accountability, I was referring specifically to accountability of ICANN/IANA, that being the topic Michael brought up, not the accountability of civil society organisations, that being an entirely different subject brought up by Parminder. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>FWIW, I find it sadly quite typical of the dynamics of this list that we have had so very little discussion of the accountability aspects of IANA and ICANN here (major, significant efforts</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class="">> JNC has been fighting over the introduction of a democratic pulse within IG.</div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Wel, they’ve certainly been fighting over the inclusion of the word ‘democracy’ in some statements. Whether or not that amounts to the same thing as ‘introduction of a democratic pulse’ is probably something on which there is significant disagreement. </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class=""> I see JNC has deserving recognition for that. Is fighting for democratic principles within a social community of public interest (IG) a "game", or isn't more simply part of the political debate (democracy) and the need for a different Internet governance (out of US domination by its public and private leadership)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Or perhaps JNC is fighting to have democratic principles interpreted in the means of its choosing. I certainly feel that I am fighting for democratic principles (or at least, transparency, accountability, inclusion, openness, and human rights), but most JNC members seem to feel that I am misguided and should perhaps be fighting for things such as a stronger representation of government (in the hopes that that naturally equates to democracy), or processes that are less inclusive of actors they dislike (such as those representing commercial interests). </div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class="">Everyone can take the lessons he wants to take.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Indeed. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">JC</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class=""><div class="">Le 29 mai 2015 à 09:26, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">one lesson is that the service a group delivers has to be linked to strong accountability mechanism. Insofar, ICANNs Accountability discussion, which has started last year as an open, transparent and bottom up process with the involvement of all stakeholders is a key for ICANN´s future and the good service people expect from ICANN. BTW, FIFA operates under Swiss jurisdiction. ;-(((.<br class=""><br class="">Wolfgang<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">:------Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br class="">Von: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" class="">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> im Auftrag von David Cake<br class="">Gesendet: Fr 29.05.2015 09:06<br class="">An: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" class="">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Michael Gurstein<br class="">Betreff: Re: [governance] ICANN/FIFA<br class=""><br class="">Obviously those who are more familiar with ICANN and FIFA would probably point out that the parallels are really not very strong. They are both international organisations that are non-government, but otherwise they are very different. FIFA is an association of national associations, ICANN is not.<br class=""><br class="">But it is a timely reminder for the need for strong accountability mechanisms. Which is probably why many of the ICANN engaged people on this list have been relatively quiet over the last year, as many of them have been involved either with the IANA transition (which has been very much concerned with structural accountability issues - how ICANN can be made responsible to those who, directly or indirectly, use IANA) or the accompanying accountability process (which is focussed on broader accountability issues with ICANN).<br class="">(I myself have not been strongly involved with those processes, but I know Avri, Robin, Milton, and others have been spending many hours every week, which is probably why I sometimes have time to respond to cheap shots like this one).<br class=""><br class="">But if you'd like a few lessons that might be drawn:<br class="">direct voting on a national representative basis is absolutely no defence against corruption.<br class="">From which we might presume that accountability and transparency are more important factors in preventing corruption. Perhaps JNC might consider shifting its focus from games about the word 'democracy' and focus on the practical push for the accountability and transparency mechanisms that are a vital part of any democratic process.<br class=""><br class="">Regards<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 29 May 2015, at 2:13 pm, Michael Gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" class="">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">As I watch along with I'm sure many others, the events consuming FIFA I am of course, reminded of the often made parallels between FIFA and ICANN, particularly in reference to proposed models for governance of global non-governmental organizations as for example in the area of accountability.<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">So, I'm wondering from among with those with far more knowledge concerning ICANN than myself, what lessons if any might one draw from what is being exposed concerning FIFA and how might that figure into what if anything will be an outcome of the current IANA transition discussions?<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">M<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">____________________________________________________________<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" class="">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">To be removed from the list, visit:<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" class="">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">For all other list information and functions, see:<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" class="">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" class="">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class=""></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class="">Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" class="">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">____________________________________________________________<br class="">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br class=""> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" class="">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br class="">To be removed from the list, visit:<br class=""> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" class="">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br class=""><br class="">For all other list information and functions, see:<br class=""> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" class="">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br class="">To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br class=""> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" class="">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br class=""><br class="">Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" class="">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div>____________________________________________________________<br class="">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br class=""> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" class="">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br class="">To be removed from the list, visit:<br class=""> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" class="">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br class=""><br class="">For all other list information and functions, see:<br class=""> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" class="">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br class="">To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br class=""> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" class="">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br class=""><br class="">Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" class="">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>