<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Let us know when we should cry!!!!!!!!<div><br></div><div>Going after any asymmetry (in any society or community) is a difficult task and it takes some courage to challenge it, and to stand in front of the dominant storytelling would the latter be provided by any 'Uncle Wolfy', 'Nicky Biz', 'Brother Carlos' or any one else. Their opinions are indeed respectable, this is not my concern. But defending the dominants (for a CS) brings inevitably a sense of betrayal (sorry about that). And selling us assumptions, instead of facts, can even be more toxic. Did Postel thought that ICANN was a good deal? Had he any choice, when he was able to realize that the US government would do anything to oppose any international solution to what was obviously an asymmetric concern that Postel had foreseen long before he saw Ira Magaziner, with Vint Cerf's help, trying to derail Internet governance by Academics toward USG and US corporations? So we should be very careful again and again, always trying to assume who is serving his master, or his people - I am talking of someone pretending to be a CS, and basically defending people. At least that seems to be the level-zero of any CS activism.</div><div><br></div><div>Multistakeholderism is often opposed to <i>multilateralism</i>, when it should be reminded that multi-stakeholderism is opposing <i>universalism</i>. MSism has not invented the ability to invite different parties or stakeholders to a consultation or to a debate. That we know how to do it for quite some time. Interestingly, MSism has worked relatively well to keep Civil society fragmented and unable to unite (the opposite has no evidence in terms of reality). I think this is something that goes beyond the so-called current war to define terms. MSism does not exist as an ideology. It is a poor salsa, more the kind of ketch-up that kills other flavors. It is a stratagem preventing a democratic debate, and preventing anyone in CS to move the collective bargain. MSism is a perfect way to stay submitted to the powerful. More toxically, it tends to provide to corporations even more power in front of nations. Who in these different threads really wants a corporation to have an equal footing decision making role to a nation? I don't. Those happy with that should leave the CS camp. So let's forget MSism. It leads nowhere simply because it is empty of political and philosophical substance. Democracy is something else. Democracy, as imperfect it is, is still an exercise that delivers results with a rather good legitimacy/public interest/private/interest ratio.</div><div><br></div><div>The lists are in danger for being unable to unite as a CS in front of governments (un-united by definition) and corporations (they are so efficient to create unlawful <i>entente</i>). Maybe this CS <i>unability</i> is part of an expected result. Of course, no one doubts that the world of IG would speak with one voice, would the JNCs and a few others not be able to expressed themselves. Of course, such a nice single voicing would allow more little arrangements among friends, granting a seat or some money here and there at ICANN, ISOC, or any convenient board. </div><div><br></div><div>So obviously Nick - as anyone - is most welcome to stay in. What would be more interesting - and I agree with Deirdre in terms of objective - is to see how we can get CS bring back trust in its ranks. I am not sure if Anriette's latest comments were any kind of official statement by APC still I doubt those to be what we expect from a true CS leader (her vision of MSism from local to global levels is highly questionable). Maybe she should invest more time to reflect on JFC's and see how his views are clearly challenging the absence of progress when it comes to CS trying to shake the IG house. </div><div><br></div><div>JC</div><div>PS: Carlos, I have fraternal tissues if you need them</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>- <br><div><div>Le 24 mai 2015 à 23:19, Carlos Afonso a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>I do hope you stay with us.<br><br>fraternal regards<br><br>--c.a.<br><br>On 24-05-15 15:41, Nick Ashton-Hart wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Dear Carlos,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">If the objective is to get rid of me, then perhaps it is useful to know:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* I do not currently receive *any* private-sector funding for IDEA's activities - nor have I in 2015.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* IDEA's mission is not to represent the private sector, as even the most basic reading of the 'about' page clearly states.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* IDEA's Advisory Council has a majority of people who are not even *from* the private sector.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* Any number of NGOs on this list receive heads-up messages about events that only someone who lives in works in international Geneva would ever know about - and few even then - not because they pay for it but because I believe they should know about it to more effectively represent the civil society interest.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* Last, but not least, irrespective of the above, none of us are defined by our jobs. We all are people first and we should IMO always approach life first as people with an obligation to our fellow man and woman and the common weal, and everything else second. If someone here who is actually getting paid by the private sector is intervening here constructively in their off time as a private person they ought to be welcomed and encouraged. IMO. Frankly this list could use a whole lot more welcoming and encouraging than it presently has. Again IMO.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">So if the objective is to get rid of me, then you're getting rid of someone simply because one vocal member of the list doesn't like my agreeing with what someone else on the list said and not in any way.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Perhaps we might all now move on to actual substance? Even if it is setting up a transparency project, separate from a connection with me personally. Such a project isn't a bad idea, as long as it is administered in the interests of transparency overall and not as a vehicle for silencing people not for who they are or what they have to say but because their views are inconvenient at one time or another.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Regards, Nick<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 24 May 2015, at 14:59, Carlos A. Afonso <<a href="mailto:ca@cafonso.ca">ca@cafonso.ca</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Parm, all this fuzz just to expel Nick??<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--c.a.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">sent from a dumbphone<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On 24/05/2015, at 09:31, parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Ian, and reps of civil society networks on the Civil Society Coordination Group (CSCG) ,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I propose that CSCG sets up a civil society transparency project, somewhat on the lines of the EU Transparency Register, pl see <a href="http://ec.europa.eu/transparencyregister/public/homePage.do">http://ec.europa.eu/transparencyregister/public/homePage.do</a> .<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It should in fact go beyond the EU initiative which is a general one for all lobbying groups, whereas we here are concerned with civil society which should set the highest example of transparency and accountability. The 'register' can have self filled information on objectives of an organisation, principles followed by it, if any, its funding, partners, and so on....<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This is at present just my proposal, but I hope one or more civil society networks in the IG space can own it and push it... CSCG would be well placed to run this project as a neutral space so that there is no accusation of bias that any such initiative is being employed for partisan purposes. In any case, a simple initiative for openness, transparency and accountability can hardly be partisan.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The register can have optional higher level features whereby a group/ org can declare its means of public accountability, whether and how its internal governance is done, how matters can be taken by with their oversight bodies, like board etc, and whether they have any means whereby they respond to public question on their work, etc.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">For such genuine cases where such transparency can harm an organisations work, or security, such organisations, and only such organisations, can be exempted employing a clear process and set of criteria.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Remember, both the UN report on improvements to the IGF and the NetMundial Statement highlight the issue of transparency. I also recently read in these lists how we should make bridges with the OpenGov movement which is almost wholly about this one thing. Time we begin practising what we preach.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I look forward to hear responses to this proposal..<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">parminder<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">____________________________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">____________________________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">____________________________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To be removed from the list, visit:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For all other list information and functions, see:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></body></html>