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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 02 April 2015 11:20 PM, Ang
Peng Hwa (Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D143A10F.3C8BD%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
Hi Parminder.</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
Bunch of meetings whole day ending with a minor emergency that
had to be attended to because it’s a holiday tomorrow.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Hope everything is well.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D143A10F.3C8BD%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
I’m glad I had the facts wrong in the right places. (You know
what I mean.)</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
You had the question:</div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">></font><span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Finally, since
I have answered your questions, I will like to ask you if
you think that the workshop we are proposing on an Internet
Social Forum should be accepted (1) at the IGF, and (2) at
APrIGF. And also what really does it mean to make it
necessary for workshop proposals to present all issues
'incorporating a multi-stakeholder perspective’. </span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
<br>
</div>
<div>I’m not in the MAG and I’m only one voice in the APrIGF
selection committee.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Would still have like have liked your clarification about the
implications of having to present issues with ' a multistakeholder
perspective'. Most members of the committee must be here, and anyone
can clarify it to me..<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D143A10F.3C8BD%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 254, 254);">></span><span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Isnt the test
of 'incorporating public interest perspective' better .</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The
devil is in the detail. How does one define public interest?
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Sure. There is a few centuries of work of political science and how
to define and determine public interest - which is still always a
project in the works. My problem is, you seem to be unsure of 'how
to define public interest' but, at the same time, happy to easily
and unproblematically use the term 'multistakeholder perspective'.
And not even clarify it when I ask .... Why dont similar doubts
occur in your mind when you make providing such a MS perspective as
a condition for APrIGF workshops? Certainly, there is much less
known or written (in fact, almost, nothing) on what is a
'multistakeholder perspective'.<br>
<br>
So, my problem here is relative - why public interest is unclear but
'multistakeholder perspective is presumably clear. <br>
<br>
Do you see here almost an exact parallel to the issue which came up
during the recent UNESCO meeting about multistakeholderism versus
democracy - where multistakeholderism was presumed to be a clear and
well defined term, with no 'baggage' and thus included in the text,
while 'democracy' was seen to be unclear and 'carrying baggage', and
rejected.<br>
<br>
Shows how deep, well-formed and portent this current political
problem of democracy/ public interest versus the new political form
of multistakholderism is, and the latter's suspiciously
post-democratic nature. I would especially draw the attention of all
those who would otherwise be really committed to democracy, but may
miss the depth and meaningfulness of the issue, for instance as may
have happened during the discussions about the UNESCO document, the
WEF-NMI initiative, and so on... <br>
<br>
We may ignore this major emerging political fault-line, of
historical significance, only at our and our democratic societies'
peril.<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D143A10F.3C8BD%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 254, 254);">Had a
long day.</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 254, 254);"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgb(254, 253, 253);">Good
night.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
<div>Regards, </div>
<div>Peng Hwa</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 18px;">
<br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 18px;">
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Parminder Singh
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@ITforChange.net">parminder@ITforChange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, 1
April 2015 8:09 pm<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Ang Peng Hwa <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tphang@ntu.edu.sg">tphang@ntu.edu.sg</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Anja Kovacs <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in">anja@internetdemocracy.in</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
[governance] [bestbits] Fwd: [Rigf_discuss] [Extended
Deadline: Apr 7(Tue)] APrIGF Macao 2015 - Last Chance to
Submit Your Workshop Proposals<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 01 April 2015
04:14 PM, Ang Peng Hwa (Prof) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>Hi Parminder.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I went to the IGF page and searched for your
proposal. I’m surprised that the entire group of
organisers consists of civil society players only.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Hi Peng Hwa<br>
<br>
Perhaps you missed noting that we have entered the proposal
not as a regular IGF workshop but under 'others' - calling
it as an 'outreach event'. And out reach event for any
initiative is obviously done by those associated with
organising that event, here, the Internet Social Forum,
which are all civil society organisations. The Internet
Social Forum is to be a thematic forum under the World
Social Forum rubric. The World Social Forum in fact only
allows civil society groups to participate and not
businesses or government. Please see this link for WSF's
criteria of paticipation . Now if you want to take up issues
with the WSF and its criteria of participation, that is a
different thing - there are much better worthies to defend
it than I.
<br>
<br>
BTW, among the organisers are both civil society and
technical community groups, and it has been made clear in
the past that it is not necessary to have stakeholders as
co- organisers of an IGF workshop.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The online proposal form has a button that allows
one to ask for help if one has difficulty getting
stakeholder participation. Your proposal does not have
that request. I presume it means that you are not
seeking inputs from government or the private sector.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You can conflating organisers and participants. If you look
at the tentative panel, you will find a wide variety of
stakeholders.
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back in 2010, when we organised the first APrIGF,
you and I had a couple of side chats during the
meeting in HK and you gave some critical inputs that,
in the long run, strengthened the meeting. One of the
criticisms was that we had no government
representation on the MSG</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
As far as I remember, both at the HK meeting, and later in
exchanges on this list, my main point was to involve the UN
regional commission of Asia Pacific.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>(multistakeholder steering group; acronym cunningly
chosen because it resembles flavouring originating in
Asia). There was a bit of finger wagging by you even
then and I explained to you that we had tried but no
government was stepping up. Since then, we have seen
increasing government involvement with the APrIGF.
Fast forward to 2014 and the Indian government played
a major part in the APrIGF in Delhi. I don’t know if
you played a part in that but your critique in 2010
was helpful in prodding us to get government on board.
In the coming Macao meeting, they are involved in
sponsorships as well.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So now, seeing a proposal from you where only civil
society is speaker and audience is puzzling. I</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
you are wrong on your facts . <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>have battle scars from being ejected at meetings by
government officials between the two WSISs. They are
so rare these days I wear them as a badge of honour.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So these are my questions that come top of my head.</div>
<ol>
<li>If civil society can organise a session where no
government or business organisation is invited,
would it be acceptable if governments and business
organise their own meetings among themselves?
</li>
</ol>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Where did you read that no gov or business is invited?
Further, we have a variety of stakeholders on the panel as
well. Yes, no business at present. I would love to get a
small developing country business but can never find one. If
you know anyone please do refer to me.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<ol>
<li>If even the World Economic Forum is recognising
the importance of a multistakeholder model <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.weforum.org/reports/future-role-civil-society">http://www.weforum.org/reports/future-role-civil-society</a>,
would not a civil-society-only meeting be a step
backward?<br>
</li>
</ol>
</div>
</blockquote>
I have pretty good idea about what WEF recognises and what
it does not, and to what purpose. (BTW, do read their Global
Redesign Initiative, and their vision of the future of
governance. But if you cant read it all, see
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.twn.my/title2/resurgence/2014/287-288/cover02.htm">a
short critique in this article</a> , go to the box in the
article on 'From NetMundial to the WEF'.) The workshop on
the Internet Social Forum at the IGF is of course not only
civil society. As for your objection to the proposed
Internet Social Forum itself being only civil society, you
will need to engage with the World Social Forum, at whose
2015 meeting last week about 40,000 people congregated from
the world over. The next WSF is probably in Canada, and
there will curely be an Internet Social Forum event there.
You are welcome to come.<br>
<br>
Below are the current top news about the 2015 WSF meeting.
(You may also know that the WSF -
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.forumsocialmundial.org.br/main.php?id_menu=4&cd_language=2">read
charter here
</a>- was called in direct opposition to the WEF, so
obviously a lots of people were never too happy with WEF's
multistakeholderism and inclusiveness !)
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/mar/23/world-social-forum-tunis-activists-united-against-global-power-grab">http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/mar/23/world-social-forum-tunis-activists-united-against-global-power-grab</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.equaltimes.org/2015-a-key-year-for-world-social#.VRvcts3SUyo">http://www.equaltimes.org/2015-a-key-year-for-world-social#.VRvcts3SUyo</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://cadtm.org/Declaration-of-the-Assembly-of,11452">http://cadtm.org/Declaration-of-the-Assembly-of,11452</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/27/african_economist_samir_amin_on_the">http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/27/african_economist_samir_amin_on_the</a><br>
<br>
Finally, since I have answered your questions, I will like
to ask you if you think that the workshop we are proposing
on an Internet Social Forum should be accepted (1) at the
IGF, and (2) at APrIGF. And also what really does it mean to
make it necessary for workshop proposals to present all
issues 'incorporating a multi-stakeholder perspective'. Isnt
the test of 'incorporating public interest perspective'
better .
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D141E8B1.3C6E9%25tphang@ntu.edu.sg"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>Regards, </div>
<div>Peng Hwa</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; border-bottom:medium
none; border-left:medium none; padding-bottom:0in;
padding-left:0in; padding-right:0in;
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none; padding-top:3pt">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Parminder
Singh <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@ITforChange.net">parminder@ITforChange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Parminder Singh <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@ITforChange.net">parminder@ITforChange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday,
1 April 2015 5:49 pm<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Anja Kovacs
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anja@internetdemocracy.in">anja@internetdemocracy.in</a>>,
"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>>,
IGC <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
[governance] [bestbits] Fwd: [Rigf_discuss] [Extended
Deadline: Apr 7(Tue)] APrIGF Macao 2015 - Last Chance
to Submit Your Workshop Proposals<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 31 March
2015 01:29 PM, Anja Kovacs wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear all,<br>
<br>
</div>
I just wanted to share with you all that the
submission deadline for the APrIGF workshops
has been slightly extended, until 7 April.
For those of you who are in the region, do
please consider submitting a proposal!<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Hi Anja<br>
<br>
I am curious what would the mean and entail by "<span
style="font-size:14px; line-height:19px">proposals
... should present the proposed issue ...
incorporating a multi-stakeholder perspective".<br>
<br>
For instance, it one were to present a workshop
proposal titled 'Countering the power of Internet
Trans-national corporations', one would normally
be writing mostly about excesses of TNC's power in
this area and what to do about it, isnt it. Would
that fail the test of 'incorporating a MS
perspective'.<br>
<br>
Or, to take a more concrete example, those who
organised the workshop on Internet Social Forum
intend to also organise one the next IGF, the
initial proposal is
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/workshop-proposals/list-of-published-workshop-proposals">here</a>
... I have a feeling that this proposal may not be
considered to be 'incorporating a multi
stakeholder perspective' but I dont know, you or
someone else from APrIGF can tell me..<br>
<br>
Best , parminder <br>
</span>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
With best regards,<br>
</div>
Anja<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">----------
Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class="gmail_sendername">APrIGF
Secretariat</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sec@aprigf.asia">sec@aprigf.asia</a>></span><br>
Date: 30 March 2015 at 12:54<br>
Subject: [Rigf_discuss] [Extended
Deadline: Apr 7(Tue)] APrIGF Macao
2015 - Last Chance to Submit Your
Workshop Proposals<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:announce@aprigf.asia">announce@aprigf.asia</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><b><font
size="4">Asia
Pacific
Regional
Internet
Governance
Forum</font></b></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><b><font
size="4">APrIGF
Macao 2015</font></b></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><b
style="font-size:14px"><font color="#444444">30 Jun (Pre-event), 1-3 Jul
(Main
Conference),
2015</font></b></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><b
style="font-size:14px"><font color="#444444">Sands Cotai Central, Macao</font></b></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><font
style="font-size:14px" color="#444444"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://aprigf.asia/"
target="_blank" style="font-size:14px">http://2015.rigf.asia</a></font></div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT;
text-align:center">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><b><font
color="#232323" size="4">Final Call for Pre-Events/Workshop Proposals</font></b></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><span
style=""><br>
</span></div>
<div><span><span
style="font-size:14px;
line-height:19px">With our promotion at the RightsCon Southeast Asia
which just
concluded in
Manila last
week, the MSG
is very glad
to receive the
overwhelming
interests from
the attendees
on submitting
workshop
proposals and
their request
for a further
deadline
extension.
To enhance the
diversity of
the proposals
and engage
more
stakeholders'
participation,
the MSG
reached a
consensus to
further extend
the submission
deadline to
allow
sufficient
time for
community
members to
fully develop
their workshop
proposals.</span></span></div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:14px;
line-height:19px">We now welcome proposals for pre-events or main
workshop
sessions which
should present
the proposed
issue in an
inclusive
manner,
incorporating
a
multi-stakeholder
perspective
with a balance
of
stakeholders
and gender in
the speakers
list. The
session shall
promote an
interactive
dialogue among
the
participants.</span></p>
<p
style="line-height:19px"><span
style="font-size:14px">There will not be further deadline extension.
Hence, it is
highly
encouraged to
submit your
complete
workshop
proposal
within the
extended
period.</span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);
line-height:19px">
<span
style="font-size:14px"><b>Workshop
Proposal
Submission
Deadline: </b><del>11
Mar 2015 (Wed)</del> <b><span
style="color:red">[Extended to 7 Apr (Tue)]</span></b></span></p>
<p
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);
line-height:19px">
<span
style="font-size:14px"><b>Online
Submission
Form:</b> (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://2015.rigf.asia/workshop-theme-submissions/"
target="_blank">http://2015.rigf.asia/workshop-theme-submissions/</a>)</span></p>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><span
style="font-size:14px">If you have any enquiries, please feel free to
contact the
secretariat
at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sec@aprigf.asia" target="_blank">sec@aprigf.asia</a>.</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><span
style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMT"><b
style="font-size:14px">
<div
style="color:rgb(51,50,51);
margin:0px;
font-weight:normal">
If you are
interested to
follow any
news and
updates about
APrIGF and
discuss
relevant
issues, you
may subscribe
to the mailing
list <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
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