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<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">The merits of democracy are not
being argued here as much as the tendency for this word to be used solely
in a multilateral context in UN circles. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Any consensus based approach
can certainly be described as democratic. The question here is what
political significance will get attached to that word, especially when it
is advocated by a grouping that explicitly favors multilateral governance
structures. <br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
March 8, 2015 6:40:17 PM JOSEFSSON Erik
<erik.josefsson@europarl.europa.eu> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"><div
style="direction: ltr;font-family: Arial;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">I
want to add to the complexity with another perspective (albeit I think the
underlying understanding is congruent with what Jean-Christophe described),
namely the overview Eben
Moglen recently gave in New Zealand at http://linux.conf.au/. I point the
video to the part where transparency, participation and non-hierarchical
collaboration is described as conditions that grew out of technical work on
making the internet.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOcpDsDSWY0#t=11m20s"
target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOcpDsDSWY0#t=11m20s</a><br>
<br>
Mr Moglen says that later on (at ~18m) that "principles of
transparency, participation and non-hierarchical collaboration, they are
themselves a social and political program".<br>
<br>
Isn't that program about democratically accountable internet governance?<br>
<br>
Or am I just taking the best governance bits out of the conference of
connected dots?<br>
<br>
//Erik<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF204420"><font face="Tahoma"
color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b> bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net
[bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net] on behalf of parminder
[parminder@itforchange.net]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday 8 March 2015 11:16<br>
<b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org; "Kleinwächter,
Wolfgang"; Michael Gurstein; Benedek, Wolfgang; best Bits<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] [governance] Remarks at UNESCO Closing
Ceremony of "Connecting the Dots Conference"<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><font face="Verdana">And of course, the main question still is: what
is your Internet-related global public policy decision making model?</font>
(Or do you have a case that Internet related global policy making is not
needed, or that it is happening quite
fine?)<br>
<br>
If you are just ready to say - no, corporates do not have the same role as
governments, and cannot claim to participate as equals or on an equal
footing, in Internet-related global policy decision making -
that is enough. We can all agree, and all these ongoing
contentions be put behind us, and we can work as one. Is this that
difficult? Why do people choke on making this simple assertion, which would
clearly follow from simple democratic principles and ideals.
<br>
<br>
Is this not a simple way to remove the deep contestations that are evident
here, which so many find so unsightly?<br>
<br>
Meanwhile, if others have any simple assertion (or a set of them) that they
want to know if JNC agrees to or not, we promise to come back immediately
on that.<br>
<br>
Isnt it better to clearly bring out the actual and specific points of
differences, and see if these can be closed, rather than long email
exchanges where one can be presenting mother and apple pie assertions, and
feel quite good about it. Lets do real political
talk here, and seek closing differences, and if we cant, at least know
what the precise differences are. If we can commit ourself to this concise
methodology, we will be making progress.
<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 08 March 2015 03:27 PM, parminder
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><font face="Verdana">I will reply to the emails of
both Wolfgangs together, and some other emails of a similar kind.<br>
<br>
We are getting circular with this discussion, so lets try to cut the
circularity with some specifics.<br>
<br>
1. You say democracy, esp in its practise, is not clear, but is MSism
(multistakeholder-ism) clearer? Should then both words no longer be used in
IG docs.<br>
<br>
2. No one asked for MS word to be removed from the doc, this is an impotant
point to remember. On the other hand people positively insisted that
democracy/ democratic not be included, and others thought nothing of such
insistence, and the consequent non-inclusion
(and continue to do so in this discussion) - this is the problem. Do you
read nothing here. I, and JNC, reads a lot, and is positively dismayed.
<br>
<br>
3. About the advice that we (JNC) should not play word games and focus on
'concrete issues': Really! What was the Netmundial doc about with about 40
references to the MS word and precisely one and a half to democratic? Did
it just innocently come to that, or
were some people playing intensive word games there (Jeanette, you really
were in the middle of that whole thing, no)? Why this gratuitous advice
that dont mind 'democracy' but we will always be making sure that the MS
word goes into ever single place. Lets
please be fair here. <br>
<br>
4. Finally, Can any one of you honestly say that if someone has said at the
meeting, 'MS term contains baggage', and opposed the use of the term 'MS'
as a result of which it had got removed from the document, the whole space
would not have gone hopping mad?
There would have been strong denouncements and walk outs. This is direct
question - would it not have been so? Then why cant people think and act in
a similar manner about the 'democratic' term. That is the issue here. An
honest consideration of this other
hypothetical situation, and a reponse on what would have happened if the
MS word was excluded, will make very clear what is the main issue here.
Anyone?<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Saturday 07 March 2015 11:07 PM,
"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>This discussion is bizarr.
Civil Society should concentrate on concrete issues as access,
infrastructure, data protection, freedom of expression, education, capacity
building, cultural diversity etc. In my eyes CS can achieve more when they
communicate and collaborate with other stakeholders. Insofar a
"multistakeholder approach" where CS is involved as an equal
partner in its respective role, gives civil society more opportunities and
options than a "one stakeholder approach" where CS is excluded
from final policy and decision making and its role is reduced to implement
on the "community level" what other stakeholders have decided.
Wolfgang
BTW, for people who like "wordsmithing" and "playing with
paragraphs" I recommend to read para. 35 of the Tunis Agenda in the
light of para. 34. Para. 34 speaks about "shared decision making
procedures". Para. 35a says that states "have rights and
responsibilities for international Internet-related public policy issues".
The paragraph 35a does not say that states have "exclusive
rights". With other words,if you read 35 in the light of 34, states
(and their governments) have to "share decision making" on
"Internet related public policy issues" with other stakeholders.
This is not easy to achive. But this is the challenge where we have to move
forward by being creative. The NetMundial conference offered an interesting
model. More forward looking Innovation is needed.
I think what you mean below is not "a consensus on the understanding and
role of democracy in the context of the internet" but rather a
consensus on
how to effectively operationalize democracy in the context of the Internet
something with which I (and the JNC) completely agree and which we have been
advocating for a long time.
Further, I think that even in the absence of a fully formed consensus on the
definition of "democracy" there seems, at least based on my
quotes from Mr.
Mandela and the US State Department, sufficient comfort in a working
definition of democracy that Mr. Mandela would commit his life to the
endeavour and the US-State Department would make it a fundamental pillar of
US foreign policy. Based on this, presumably "we" could have
sufficient
comfort to "force" it into international documents.
The same, I should add cannot in any sense be said for multistakeholderism,
a concept which even its strongest advocates acknowledge is ill-formed,
shape shifting from context to context and lacks any consistent definition
either in theory or in practice.
M
-----Original Message-----
From: Benedek, Wolfgang (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
target="_blank">wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at</a>)
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
target="_blank">mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at</a>]
Sent: March 7, 2015 6:02 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Michael Gurstein
Subject: Re: [governance] [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony of
"Connecting the Dots Conference"
First to make my position clear I'm myself an advocate of democratic
governance and a holistic approach to human rights although not as an
alternative to multistakeholderism, the potential of which in my view still
needs to be developed.
Second I have myself proposed in writing to the Secretariat to include
certain language on global citizenship education, a concept supported by the
UN Secretary General and developed very actively in the educational sector
of UNECO while only mentioned once in the UNESCO study to resolve ethical
issues in cyberspace. Finally, the concept was only mentioned without any
elaboration. And I'm aware that several other proposals made by others were
not taken up at all.
Regarding the baggage issue, I'm not an insider to these discussions, I have
no problem with appeals to democratic values, but I'm aware that the concept
of democracy has also been misused a lot in history, take the examples of
the former German Democratic Republic(GDR), the Democratic Republic of Congo
(DRC) or the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. It would be good to work
for a consensus on the understanding and role of democracy in the context of
the internet among civil society and academia first before forcing it into
international documents.
Wolfgang Benedek
Am 07.03.15 14:01 schrieb "Michael Gurstein" unter <
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><mailto:gurstein@gmail.com></a> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>And to be very clear, in the case of "democracy" it wasn't
simply a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>matter of the concept "not making it into the final
document" but
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>rather that those involved made the clear political choice to promote
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>"multistakeholderism" and suppress "democracy".
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>M
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>-----Original Message-----
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>From: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank"><mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>[ <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank"><mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf
Of Norbert
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Klein
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Sent: March 7, 2015 3:45 AM
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank"><mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org></a> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Subject: Re: [governance] [bestbits] Remarks at UNESCO Closing Ceremony
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>of "Connecting the Dots Conference"
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>On 03/07/2015 02:30 PM, Benedek, Wolfgang
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>( <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
target="_blank"><mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at></a> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
target="_blank">wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at</a>)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>wrote:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>As a participant and speaker in the UNESCO conference Connecting the
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>dots: Options for future action in Paris I think it is important to
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>put the record straight: the main purpose of the conference was to
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>give feedback to the UNESCO draft Internet study and advise on the
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>future priorities in this field. This was done in several plenary and
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>16 breakout sessions in a MSH-approach quite successfully.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>The fact that two concepts important to some did not make it into the
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>outcome document should not be overestimated as this is all work in
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>progress. Also other concepts dear to others were not or only partly
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>included. I also do not remember that these concepts were elaborated
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>on during the sessions or panels in any significant way in order to
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>deepen their understanding.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Wolfgang Benedek
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Dear Mr. Benedek,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>thanks for this, for this type of, clarification - using only
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>formalities like "Also other concepts dear to others were not or
only
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>partly included."
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I cannot easily imagine what kind of "other concept" of a
similar
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>importance and weight could be lined up with "democracy." I
would
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>appreciate it if you, as a participant in this UNESCO conference, could
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>share some of these "other concepts" which were also not, or
only
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>partially, included.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Thanks in advance,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Norbert Klein
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Cambodia
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
<pre>
</pre>
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