<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 2 Feb 2015, at 9:07 pm, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Errr… yes, there is a fundamental difference between those who believe in and the democratic governance of the Internet and those who believe in the governance of the Internet by a self-appointed (multistakeholder) elite.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JNC supports the sovereign special rights of undemocratic nations too, as you are well aware Michael. Until JNC addresses that, all this talk of democracy raises more questions than it answers. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>And of course, we now understand ‘self appointed elite’ to be JNC speak for ‘those who choose to show up to open fora’. The JNC attitude, given the number of decisions it makes without even consulting with civil society colleagues, would seem to be that they should do the appointing. I make no apology for not being very keen on that. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Avri Doria<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 02, 2015 1:50 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [governance] Towards an Internet Social Forum<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Hi,<br><br>While i think it would be lovely if Civil society could speak with one voice, given the fundamental differences between those who support multistakeholder distributed mechanisms on Internet policy issues and those who support sovereign special rights on international Internet public policy issues, it seems highly unlikely.<br><br>On some ancillary issues we may reach a consensus, but on the most fundamental, that is unlikely. I think IGC should focus on those other issues, such as modality for open participation etc where we made indeed be able to speak in a common voice and perhaps able to influence things in a direction the various camps can all accept. While I accept using the IGC as a discussion place for the larger issues, I do not think we should expect to reach consensus on these issues.<br><br>avri<br><br><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On 01-Feb-15 13:01, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Hi<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">thx. for the discussion.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">The "speak with one voice" question can be easily answered: It is the outcome of a process where different CS groups participate in a bottom up open, transparent and inclusive drafting process and agree on common languge around a number of issues. This has been possible in the past from the CS WSIS 2003 declaration via numerous statements in CSTD, IGF, UNESCO, ITU/WTPF and others. This was workable on the basis of a principle which was inspired by Jon Postels RFC 793."Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept". <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">If the various CS Groups return to RFC 793, there is a good chance to reach rough consensus among the various groups so that we can speak seriously with "one" voice in the WSIS 10+ process, knowing that this "one voice" is based on a broad variety of different nuances but is united around basic values as human rights, equality , justice, access, knowledge, brdiging the digital divide etc. ..<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Wolfgang<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Von: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> im Auftrag von Mawaki Chango<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Gesendet: So 01.02.2015 10:24<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">An: Internet Governance; Norbert Bollow<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Betreff: Re: [governance] Towards an Internet Social Forum<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:34 AM, Norbert Bollow <a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><nb@bollow.ch></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">...<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"> WK is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">calling for civil society to "speak with one voice".<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">So I find it natural to ask how it would be determined what this "one<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">voice" says concretely!<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">I find this question one of the most critical questions we are faced with.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">It pertains to the same problem and observation that previously led me to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">state that IGC does not have just ONE voice. Interesting enough, you<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">(Norbert) replied the following which I don't disagree with but just wasn't<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">the issue implied by my statement.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Norbert Bollow <a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><nb@bollow.ch></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 12:03:20 +0000<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Mawaki Chango <a href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><kichango@gmail.com></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">In other words, IGC which is also a CSCG member is certainly not one<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">voice.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">In fact, despite all its shortcomings (which include the fact that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">what the Charter says about enforcing the posting rules is not being<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">done, and may in fact be impossible to do) IGC. i.e. this list, right<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">now is still the best place to go to when desiring a broad discussion<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">inclusive of the whole variety of civil society viewpoints.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">So the question is How and When can IGC have a unique/common/united voice<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">(you choose your preferred adjective)?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Part of it is the representation-accountability dimension which seems to be<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">what you're concerned with here (and yes, while mentioning the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">non-enforcement of posting rules in passing.) But the other big part is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">this: What will it take for members to accept that their views, no matter<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">how strong they feel about them, may not carry the day (and they certainly<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">cannot always<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">do)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">and still allow the group to make a decision while keeping peace and trust<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">among us? This applies to all sides of our worldview spectrum.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">In my opinion, this question cluster is the million dollars knot for IGC to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">untie (solve) in order to be functional again.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Mawaki<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">In particular, some kind of credible plan would be needed to prevent<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">such a determination from being made on behalf of civil society as a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">whole in a way that in reality might be significantly less inclusive<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">than it would claim to be.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Greetings,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">Norbert<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><o:p> </o:p></pre><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);">To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(51, 0, 51);"> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; 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