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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ahh David, I think you have got it wrong certainly for me and I would guess for the JNC. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I, at least, believe in the “sovereign right” of the people not of “nations” (or governments or states… <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In some instances this “sovereign right” is able to be exercised through the democratic processes governing the actions of “nations” in other instances (dictatorships, autocracies, oligarchies, etc.) this is not possible. This latter case doesn’t remove the sovereign right of the people nor is it transferred in these instances to the “nation”, rather these sovereign rights await appropriate means/modalities for a democratic execution. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And, now that I think about it, with the formation of the NMI one can start talking simply about “elites” as the governing structures of these multi-stakeholder processes … Of course, these folks are “self-selected” in their governance role while their being “elites” derives from their position of power in various economic, political and social structures or as courtiers to those who do.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> David Cake [mailto:dave@difference.com.au] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 04, 2015 5:50 PM<br><b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org; michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Avri Doria<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Towards an Internet Social Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 2 Feb 2015, at 9:07 pm, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Errr… yes, there is a fundamental difference between those who believe in and the democratic governance of the Internet and those who believe in the governance of the Internet by a self-appointed (multistakeholder) elite.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>JNC supports the sovereign special rights of undemocratic nations too, as you are well aware Michael. Until JNC addresses that, all this talk of democracy raises more questions than it answers. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>And of course, we now understand ‘self appointed elite’ to be JNC speak for ‘those who choose to show up to open fora’. The JNC attitude, given the number of decisions it makes without even consulting with civil society colleagues, would seem to be that they should do the appointing. I make no apology for not being very keen on that. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>David<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Avri Doria<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Monday, February 02, 2015 1:50 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [governance] Towards an Internet Social Forum</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'>Hi,<br><br>While i think it would be lovely if Civil society could speak with one voice, given the fundamental differences between those who support multistakeholder distributed mechanisms on Internet policy issues and those who support sovereign special rights on international Internet public policy issues, it seems highly unlikely.<br><br>On some ancillary issues we may reach a consensus, but on the most fundamental, that is unlikely. I think IGC should focus on those other issues, such as modality for open participation etc where we made indeed be able to speak in a common voice and perhaps able to influence things in a direction the various camps can all accept. While I accept using the IGC as a discussion place for the larger issues, I do not think we should expect to reach consensus on these issues.<br><br>avri<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#330033'>On 01-Feb-15 13:01, "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang" wrote:</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>thx. for the discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>The "speak with one voice" question can be easily answered: It is the outcome of a process where different CS groups participate in a bottom up open, transparent and inclusive drafting process and agree on common languge around a number of issues. This has been possible in the past from the CS WSIS 2003 declaration via numerous statements in CSTD, IGF, UNESCO, ITU/WTPF and others. This was workable on the basis of a principle which was inspired by Jon Postels RFC 793."Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept". <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>If the various CS Groups return to RFC 793, there is a good chance to reach rough consensus among the various groups so that we can speak seriously with "one" voice in the WSIS 10+ process, knowing that this "one voice" is based on a broad variety of different nuances but is united around basic values as human rights, equality , justice, access, knowledge, brdiging the digital divide etc. ..<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Wolfgang<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Von: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:purple'>governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a> im Auftrag von Mawaki Chango<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Gesendet: So 01.02.2015 10:24<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>An: Internet Governance; Norbert Bollow<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Betreff: Re: [governance] Towards an Internet Social Forum<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:34 AM, Norbert Bollow <a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch"><span style='color:purple'><nb@bollow.ch></span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:#330033'>...<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> WK is<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>calling for civil society to "speak with one voice".<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>So I find it natural to ask how it would be determined what this "one<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>voice" says concretely!<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>I find this question one of the most critical questions we are faced with.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>It pertains to the same problem and observation that previously led me to<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>state that IGC does not have just ONE voice. Interesting enough, you<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>(Norbert) replied the following which I don't disagree with but just wasn't<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>the issue implied by my statement.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Norbert Bollow <a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch"><span style='color:purple'><nb@bollow.ch></span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 12:03:20 +0000<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Mawaki Chango <a href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com"><span style='color:purple'><kichango@gmail.com></span></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:#330033'>In other words, IGC which is also a CSCG member is certainly not one<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>voice.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>In fact, despite all its shortcomings (which include the fact that<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>what the Charter says about enforcing the posting rules is not being<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>done, and may in fact be impossible to do) IGC. i.e. this list, right<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>now is still the best place to go to when desiring a broad discussion<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>inclusive of the whole variety of civil society viewpoints.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>So the question is How and When can IGC have a unique/common/united voice<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>(you choose your preferred adjective)?<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Part of it is the representation-accountability dimension which seems to be<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>what you're concerned with here (and yes, while mentioning the<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>non-enforcement of posting rules in passing.) But the other big part is<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>this: What will it take for members to accept that their views, no matter<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>how strong they feel about them, may not carry the day (and they certainly<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>cannot always<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>do)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>and still allow the group to make a decision while keeping peace and trust<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>among us? This applies to all sides of our worldview spectrum.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>In my opinion, this question cluster is the million dollars knot for IGC to<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>untie (solve) in order to be functional again.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Mawaki<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><span style='color:#330033'>In particular, some kind of credible plan would be needed to prevent<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>such a determination from being made on behalf of civil society as a<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>whole in a way that in reality might be significantly less inclusive<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>than it would claim to be.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Greetings,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Norbert<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#330033'><br><br><br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span style='color:#330033'>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:purple'>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing"><span style='color:purple'>http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>For all other list information and functions, see:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance"><span style='color:purple'>http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/"><span style='color:purple'>http://www.igcaucus.org/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:#330033'>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t"><span style='color:purple'>http://translate.google.com/translate_t</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#330033'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#330033'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email: <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>