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Hi,<br>
<br>
i tried to put it neutrally, quoting from an ITU document on the
position that I did not hold.<br>
<br>
We obviously have very different views on democracy. I believe in a
model of participatory democracy the includes representative
democratic actors and falls just short of direct democracy on every
issue but includes lots of open to all comment periods and
consultations. Since you do not consider that democracy, I have no
idea what you might mean by democracy. I tend to not include
dictatorships, autocratic monarchies and theocracies in the set of
democratic models.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02-Feb-15 14:07, michael gurstein
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Errr… yes, there is a fundamental
difference between those who believe in and the democratic
governance of the Internet and those who believe in the
governance of the Internet by a self-appointed
(multistakeholder) elite.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>M </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:</span></b><span>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Avri Doria<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 02, 2015 1:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Towards an Internet
Social Forum</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
<br>
While i think it would be lovely if Civil society could speak
with one voice, given the fundamental differences between
those who support multistakeholder distributed mechanisms on
Internet policy issues and those who support sovereign special
rights on international Internet public policy issues, it
seems highly unlikely.<br>
<br>
On some ancillary issues we may reach a consensus, but on the
most fundamental, that is unlikely. I think IGC should focus
on those other issues, such as modality for open participation
etc where we made indeed be able to speak in a common voice
and perhaps able to influence things in a direction the
various camps can all accept. While I accept using the IGC as
a discussion place for the larger issues, I do not think we
should expect to reach consensus on these issues.<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<span></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On 01-Feb-15 13:01, "Kleinwächter,
Wolfgang" wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<pre>Hi</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>thx. for the discussion.</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>The "speak with one voice" question can be easily answered: It is the outcome of a process where different CS groups participate in a bottom up open, transparent and inclusive drafting process and agree on common languge around a number of issues. This has been possible in the past from the CS WSIS 2003 declaration via numerous statements in CSTD, IGF, UNESCO, ITU/WTPF and others. This was workable on the basis of a principle which was inspired by Jon Postels RFC 793."Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept". </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>If the various CS Groups return to RFC 793, there is a good chance to reach rough consensus among the various groups so that we can speak seriously with "one" voice in the WSIS 10+ process, knowing that this "one voice" is based on a broad variety of different nuances but is united around basic values as human rights, equality , justice, access, knowledge, brdiging the digital divide etc. ..</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Wolfgang</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----</pre>
<pre>Von: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> im Auftrag von Mawaki Chango</pre>
<pre>Gesendet: So 01.02.2015 10:24</pre>
<pre>An: Internet Governance; Norbert Bollow</pre>
<pre>Betreff: Re: [governance] Towards an Internet Social Forum</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:34 AM, Norbert Bollow <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch"><nb@bollow.ch></a> wrote:</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<blockquote>
<pre>...</pre>
<pre> WK is</pre>
<pre>calling for civil society to "speak with one voice".</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>So I find it natural to ask how it would be determined what this "one</pre>
<pre>voice" says concretely!</pre>
<pre> </pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>I find this question one of the most critical questions we are faced with.</pre>
<pre>It pertains to the same problem and observation that previously led me to</pre>
<pre>state that IGC does not have just ONE voice. Interesting enough, you</pre>
<pre>(Norbert) replied the following which I don't disagree with but just wasn't</pre>
<pre>the issue implied by my statement.</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Norbert Bollow <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch"><nb@bollow.ch></a> wrote:</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<blockquote>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 12:03:20 +0000</pre>
<pre>Mawaki Chango <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com"><kichango@gmail.com></a> wrote:</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<blockquote>
<pre>In other words, IGC which is also a CSCG member is certainly not one</pre>
<pre>voice.</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>In fact, despite all its shortcomings (which include the fact that</pre>
<pre>what the Charter says about enforcing the posting rules is not being</pre>
<pre>done, and may in fact be impossible to do) IGC. i.e. this list, right</pre>
<pre>now is still the best place to go to when desiring a broad discussion</pre>
<pre>inclusive of the whole variety of civil society viewpoints.</pre>
<pre> </pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>So the question is How and When can IGC have a unique/common/united voice</pre>
<pre>(you choose your preferred adjective)?</pre>
<pre>Part of it is the representation-accountability dimension which seems to be</pre>
<pre>what you're concerned with here (and yes, while mentioning the</pre>
<pre>non-enforcement of posting rules in passing.) But the other big part is</pre>
<pre>this: What will it take for members to accept that their views, no matter</pre>
<pre>how strong they feel about them, may not carry the day (and they certainly</pre>
<pre>cannot always</pre>
<pre>do)</pre>
<pre>and still allow the group to make a decision while keeping peace and trust</pre>
<pre>among us? This applies to all sides of our worldview spectrum.</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>In my opinion, this question cluster is the million dollars knot for IGC to</pre>
<pre>untie (solve) in order to be functional again.</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Mawaki</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<blockquote>
<pre>In particular, some kind of credible plan would be needed to prevent</pre>
<pre>such a determination from being made on behalf of civil society as a</pre>
<pre>whole in a way that in reality might be significantly less inclusive</pre>
<pre>than it would claim to be.</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Greetings,</pre>
<pre>Norbert</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre> </pre>
</blockquote>
<pre> </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<br>
</span></p>
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