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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 03 December 2014 10:40 PM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Can
I introduce some rationality to this discussion? </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
What would we do without Prof Milton Mueller! Please do lead and
direct us! More seriously, just stop being arrogant. It is simply
annoying. <br>
<br>
Now to the content of your email. But before that, I thank and
congratulate you for fully and clearly responding to the 'Internet
is neo-liberal' issue when I specifically asked you this question,
which I agree is something you will in any case normally do.<font
color="#1f497d"><font size="2"><font face="Calibri"><br>
<br>
</font></font></font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">First,
neo-liberalism is not per se a “vile label” unless you
think liberalism is vile, in which case you need to
explain to me why you think freedom of thought,
expression, association, choice, popular sovereignty and
free trade are vile, all of which are the key features of
liberalism as an ideology or movement. </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Since there is a direct question, nay challenge, let me respond
fully. Please be so good as to see IT for Change's latest <a
href="http://www.itforchange.net/ITfC_Annual_Report_2013-14/index.php/Main_Page">annual
report</a> . At least read the covering statement as the <a
href="http://www.itforchange.net/ITfC_Annual_Report_2013-14/index.php/Main_Page">director's
report</a> . <br>
Do we look like we have to defend or justify ourselves with regard
to freedom of expression, association, choice, popular sovereignty
and so on. There are specific deep works here with regard to each of
them. Yes, each one of these ideals that you speak of. Just to
toneake example, we developed a full, new theoretical framework of
how digital capabilities can enhance informational power,
communicative power and associational power (our theoretical
formulations) of marginalised women, especially in terms of their
political environments. And this framework was worked and validated
through action research in three countries over three continents.
And that was just one example.<br>
<br>
Now, about why would we still rally against neoliberalism, which if
the above is true you kind of find schizophrenic? Because it is not
just us but I claim that the majority of 'global' civil society
actors today both work for these values and rally against
neoliberalism. You sure know that the World Social Forum was born
with anti- neoliberalism as its rallying cry. If you dont, see for
instance this - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.wsfindia.org/">http://www.wsfindia.org/</a> , and I quote its very
first sentence<br>
<br>
"<strong><span style="font-weight: normal">The
World Social Forum is not an organisation,not a united front
platform, but "…an open meeting place for reflective thinking,
democratic debate of ideas, formulation of proposals, free
exchange
of experiences and inter-linking for effective action, by groups
and
movements of civil society that are opposed to neo- liberalism
and to
domination of the world by capital and any form of imperialism,
and
are committed to building a society centred on the human
person".</span></strong>
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<br>
The wikipedia entry on World Social Forum describes it thus<br>
<br>
"The World Social Forum prefers to define itself as "an opened space
– plural, diverse, non-governmental and non-partisan – that
stimulates the decentralized debate, reflection, proposals building,
experiences exchange and alliances among movements and organizations
engaged in concrete actions towards a more solidarity, democratic
and fair world....a permanent space and process to build
alternatives to <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism"
title="Neoliberalism">neoliberalism</a>."<br>
<br>
It also says "some consider the World Social Forum to be a physical
manifestation of global civil society".<br>
<br>
Now, Milton, you do not have to agree to all this, but to dismiss it
all as irrational, and someone's fancy etc would hardly be
appropriate, dont you think. This is the meaning in which a very
huge number of civil society groups and people use the term, and
employ it for there political activities, and you simply cannot
dismiss this fact.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Neo-liberalism
in literal terms </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
It is more of a political term solidly embedded in contemporary
history, and is best seem in that meaning and text, rather giving it
any literal interpretations. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">simply
refers to the revival of liberal thought that occurred in
the 1970s and 1980s (i.e., “neo” + “liberal”) following
the economic stagnation brought on by the excesses of the
social democracy and regulatory state that emerged in the
1920s and 30s. Whatever you think of the economic
liberalizations of that period, it’s pretty hard to argue
with the record of stagflation, budget crises of the
welfare state, slowing or declining growth, and a record
of complete failure by socialist/communist economies that
occurred in that period.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, it emerged in that period, but you have a very different
interpretation of 'how and to what end' which is very different from
that of many others, including mine. There has been welcome
liberalisation of economies in many places and in many areas, but
neo-liberalism refers to an extreme and virulent version of a
marketisation process, which is resisted by most civil society. <br>
<font color="#1f497d"><font size="2"><font face="Calibri"></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thus,
neo-liberalism does not mean indiscriminate application of
market principles to everything, but it did reflect a
recognition that many parts of society or the economy
which had been exempted from market forces were failing
and could be improved through the introduction of
competition and market forces. </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Please see above. Neoliberalism is the extreme virulent kind/ level
of marketisation of sectors that are not best suited for this
purpose - or the extent to which they are sought to be marketised is
not suitable. And with marketisation here we mean also a
corresponding erosion of policy and regulation in these sectors. <br>
<font color="#1f497d"><font size="2"><font face="Calibri"></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The
centerpiece of neoliberalism was globalization of the
economy and free trade. The term neoliberalism was coined
as part of the backlash again st trade liberalization and
the attempt by certain international institutions to
enforce budget constraints and sectoral liberalization
policies on developing countries as a condition for
receiving loans or aid. This is where some of the abuses
or harder hands of the Washington approach to
liberalization could be felt; sometimes the cookie-cutter
approach to policy that was imposed was inappropriate. But
for the most part, that period saw rapid worldwide growth
and development. In particular, China and India opened
their economies to market forces and grew tremendously as
a result.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, but their is a difference between genuine controlled opening
up, as in subject to due policy/ public interest processes, and the
desire to be liberated from the latter, more or less entirely, which
would be entering the space of what is called as neoliberalism.
Milton, you will simply have to make this distinction. You cannot
claim all the good that has happened in the last few decades as
benefits of neoliberalism, in a take-all-or-leave-all approach. <br>
<font color="#1f497d"><font size="2"><font face="Calibri"></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When
I say that the Internet was a product of neoliberal
policies I am referring to several largely indisputable
facts: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">a)<font face="Times New Roman"
size="1"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></font></span></span></font><!--[endif]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Prior
to ‘neoliberal’ policies the telecom system was the
epitome of social democracy: it was run as a state-owned
monopoly, market forces were largely absent. </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, communications infrastructure was expensive, with inconsistent
revenue opportunities, had a natural monopoly characteristic, and so
on... For this reason it being run as by the public sector was often
the norm. Most of them did not change fast enough as rapid, and
often transformational, technology changes took place, and were
washed away because of it. This happened almost everywhere across
the world, which does not means that in that decade or two all the
concerned governments become neoliberal. The same governments made
so much lesser changes in other sectors. So there was something also
quite unique to the ICT sector, and I suspect, everyone knows that,
a technology windfall did happen. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">b)<font face="Times New Roman"
size="1"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></font></span></span></font><!--[endif]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The
developmental record of state-owned PTT monopolies was
abysmal, there were 1% - 10% penetration rates, 6 months
waiting lists for service, massive inefficiency and
protectionism. Opponents of neoliberalism need to own up
to this.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes and so, See above.. Neolibs cannot claim all the benefits of
digital technologies windfall for themselves... It is more of tech
windfall that made the huge transformation, and also changed the
organisational requirements around ICT infrastructure, for instance
wireless technologies significantly reduced the 'natural monopoly'
characteristic of ICT infrastructure. Those who made those
organisational adjustments faster gained more, but as you have seen,
an overwhelming countries have done it, without declaring themselves
as fully neolib. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">c)<font face="Times New Roman"
size="1"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></font></span></span></font><!--[endif]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Competition
stimulated rapid improvements in technology and massive
decreases in pricing for telecom services<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">d)<font face="Times New Roman"
size="1"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New
Roman""> </span></font></span></span></font><!--[endif]--><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Free
trade agreements for IT equipment and “information
services” made it possible for TCP/IP based services to
spread rapidly across the world regardless of state
censorship or regulation</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Again, the picture is mixed. Brazil never signed the IT Agreement
that you refer to, but isnt doing badly. India signed but have
recently been ruing the fact becuase its electronic hardware import
today is next only to oil import, and there is practically zero
local hardware industry. India is now making full use of the
exceptions clauses in the ITA. <br>
<font color="#1f497d"><font size="2"><font face="Calibri"></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><font
color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In
short, if you care about prosperity, growth, economic
development and freedom,</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I will leave unsubstantiated rhetoric aside...<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
and you want to have an intelligent discussion</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
:).. Sorry, we down here are generally daft, you just have to put up
with us...<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
of the role of public policy in the internet economy, all
these things need to be taken into account.</span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
If you want to call people names, I’m not interested. </span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Milton, first, saying that the WEF centred NMI is a neoliberal thing
is not name calling, we never referred to any person here. And
second, do you realise that you frequently do name calling directly
for specific persons, using terms like leftist, or even communist,
and in fact in this email making references to lack of rationality
and intelligence of some... That is name calling.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d9f20a4ab4ef40979ddff7377bda2461@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--MM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"
size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font
color="black" face="Calibri" size="2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Avri
Doria<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 2, 2014 1:47 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
Bits <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [bestbits] [governance] Re: NMI and the
Brazilian CGI.br<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#330033" face="Times New
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#330033" face="Times New
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#330033" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">On
02-Dec-14 07:38, parminder wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#330033" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Neoliberalism
is defined as the application of market principles to
everything, including those areas in which such
principles are not normally applied. The above is a
perfect case of the application of market principles
to governance, as I said , the pristine neoliberal
governance model. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#330033" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
You may feel it is your privilege to villify others by
tarring and feathering them with the vile label of
neoliberalism sometimes and imperialism at other times.
I accept that you do so, yet I reject the label you
apply to me.<br>
<br>
I generally do not support market principles, but rather
believe in the tussle among those with different set of
principles.<br>
<br>
avri<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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