<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top"><html><div id='yahoo__compose_area' style="background-color:white; display:block; font-family:HelveticaNeue-Regular,Helvetica; font-size:15px;">When is the deadline of these discussions? I think Mawaki have got the 'temperature of the room' as he wanted. Can we define a plan moving forward? What do we do next? We need to have a final conclusion and present it asap to the NMI folks so the real discussions can start. Time is flying, action is needed!<br><br>------------------<br>Arsene Tungali,<br>Executive Director, Rudi International<br><a href="http://www.rudiinternational.org" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="0">www.rudiinternational.org</a><br><br>Founder, Mabingwa Forum<br><a href="http://www.mabingwa-forum.com" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link"
x-apple-data-detectors-result="1">www.mabingwa-forum.com</a><br>Phone:<a href="tel:+243993810967" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="telephone" x-apple-data-detectors-result="2">+243993810967</a><br><br>ICANN Fellow | ISOC Member | Child Online Protection Advocate | Youth Leader | Internet Governance.<br>Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC)<br><br>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone</div><div id='yahoo__original_message' class='yQTDBase'><br><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex; ">At 22 nov. 2014 03:04:18, Akinremi Peter Taiwo<'<a href="mailto:compsoftnet@gmail.com" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="4">compsoftnet@gmail.com</a>'> wrote:<p>Hi all, <br clear="none"><br/> I would rather suggest making our intention known to NMI quickly as possible based on the terms of condition to dancing to the tone of bottom up, open,
transparency,accountability and equal footing instead of limiting our actions to this mailing list. Remember, we don't have the power to make decisions but to influence it. I believe we can influence it if we position ourself tactically and strategically. Don't let some big corps limit us, we have the power to influence anything. Folks we are great, we can take anything and influence the world. Let sit at the table and give them what they don't expect.<br clear="none"><br/>I rest my case...</p><br/><div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 21, 2014 10:03 AM, "David Cake" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dave@difference.com.au" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">dave@difference.com.au</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="yQTDBase yqt6616249218" id="yqt35732"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;"><br clear="none"><div><div>On 21 Nov 2014, at
4:53 pm, Ian Peter <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:</div><br clear="none"><blockquote type="cite"><br/><br/><div dir="ltr" style="WORD-WRAP:break-word;"><br/><div dir="ltr"><br/><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"><br/><div>Hi David,</div><br/><div> </div><br/><div>Bear in mind that (as I understand it) ISOC has yet to fully consult its <br/>chapters and members about this decision so I wouldn’t be too surprised to see <br/>some adjustments to their current position.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear="none"></div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"> </span>That is true - but I understand this was a decision of the Board of Trustees, which is a fairly large group that includes members from a multiple chapters, so I think it relatively unlikely that broader consultation will change it too much. </div><div>I
think if their position changes, it would be more likely to be due to changes to the NMI proposal. </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr" style="WORD-WRAP:break-word;"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"><br/><div>As Jeanette pointed out, ISOC was originally opposed to the formation of <br/>IGF, a position they reversed fairly quickly when IGF got under way. It’s also <br/>not many years ago that ISOC was arguing for NTIA to continue its oversight role <br/>of the root zone – a position that began to evolve after member chapters became <br/>involved in reversing that policy decision.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear="none"></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"> </span>Absolutely. I don't think ISOC will necessarily maintain opposition to the idea of something like NMI. But will NMI itself change enough to become that
something?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"> </span>Cheers</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;"> </span>David (FWIW, I'm a member of ISOC-AU, but just a member, I have no particular insight into their thinking)</div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr" style="WORD-WRAP:break-word;"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"><br/><div> </div><br/><div>So things do change. </div><br/><div> </div><br/><div>Ian Peter</div><br/><div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;display:inline;"><br/><div style="FONT:10pt tahoma;"><br/><div> </div><br/><div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5;"><br/><div><b>From:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" title="dave@difference.com.au" ymailto="mailto:dave@difference.com.au" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">David Cake</a> </div><br/><div><b>Sent:</b> Friday,
November 21, 2014 6:39 PM</div><br/><div><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" title="arsenebaguma@yahoo.fr" ymailto="mailto:arsenebaguma@yahoo.fr" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">Arsene TUNGALI</a> </div><br/><div><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" title="governance@lists.igcaucus.org" ymailto="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a> ; <br/><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" title="williams.deirdre@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:williams.deirdre@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">williams.deirdre@gmail.com</a> </div><br/><div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] URGENT: Last call for feedback on CS <br/>participation in NETmundial Initiative</div></div></div><br/><div> </div></div><br/><div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;display:inline;">I <br/>think if ISOC continues to not be involved,
and there is no significant buy in <br/>from other I* orgs other than ICANN, then the NMI will not end up being a very <br/>significant process anyway. <br/><div> </div><br/><div>But I certainly think that if the CSCG, or individual groups within it, <br/>continue to negotiate, and particularly if there is a significant change that <br/>responds to ISOC concerns, then that is no problem. If CS members wish to <br/>participate in the process in the hope that happens, I have no problem with <br/>that. </div><br/><div> </div><br/><div>That said, I'd be surprised if ISOC change their position without huge <br/>changes to the process (possibly equivalent to more or less starting again). <br/></div><br/><div> </div><br/><div>I personally doubt JNC will rejoin the process unless WEF is effectively <br/>removed from any leadership role, but I'm sure they are more than capable of <br/>explaining their position themselves. </div><br/><div>
</div><br/><div>David</div><br/><div><br/><div> </div><br/><div><br/><div> </div><br/><div><br/><div><br/><div>On 21 Nov 2014, at 3:23 pm, Arsene TUNGALI <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:arsenebaguma@yahoo.fr" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">arsenebaguma@yahoo.fr</a>> <br/>wrote:</div><br clear="none"><br/><blockquote type="cite"><br/> <div style="WHITE-SPACE:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;FONT:12px helvetica;LETTER-SPACING:normal;TEXT-INDENT:0px;"><br/> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" valign="top"><br/> <div style="FONT-SIZE:15px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue-regular, helvetica;DISPLAY:block;BACKGROUND-COLOR:white;"><br/> <div>David, you are right in many of the points raised but...</div><br/> <div> </div>Not participating, in my opinion, will result in no <br/> change of structure or so within NMI. However, being part of it will
<br/> certainly shape it. We need people who will challenge them to sit on the <br/> same table for face-to-face debates. <br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>From my understanding, ISOC, JNC and other groups who are againts <br/> will be happy to join if there is some major changes happening. But <br/> trust me, no change will happen if we remain on arguing on mailing lists <br/> rather than on that table.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>I encourage those who are willing to join to go and help change the <br/> course of things within NMI so the other CS bodies can join as <br/> well:)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">------------------<br clear="none">Arsene Tungali,<br clear="none">Executive <br/> Director, Rudi International<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rudiinternational.org/">www.rudiinternational.org</a><br
clear="none"><br clear="none">Founder, <br/> Mabingwa Forum<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.mabingwa-forum.com/">www.mabingwa-forum.com</a><br clear="none">Phone:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><a href="tel:+243993810967" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="telephone" x-apple-data-detectors-result="16">+243993810967</a></a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">ICANN Fellow | <br/> ISOC Member | Child Online Protection Advocate | Youth Leader | Internet <br/> Governance.<br clear="none">Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC)<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Sent from Yahoo <br/> Mail for iPhone</div></div><br/> <div><br clear="none"><br/> <blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;">At <br/> 21 nov. 2014 09:10:39, David Cake<'<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:dave@difference.com.au" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">dave@difference.com.au</a>'> wrote:I <br/> think Deirdre speaks a fair bit of sense here. <br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>I don't think the two sides of this debate are as far apart some <br/> would suggest.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>The majority of CS certainly seemed to feel that the initial <br/> proposal for structure presented by the NMI founding organisations was <br/> very badly flawed.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>Now, it may be that there are some within JNC and other parts of <br/> civil society who are willing to write off the entire enterprise <br/> simply because WEF is one of the founding organisations, regardless of <br/> the specific role it has in the current structure. That position <br/> generally goes along with an
opposition to all fora in which <br/> commercial organisations are full participants (a familiar JNC <br/> refrain), and I think we can say that is solidly a minority position <br/> within CS groups that participate in IG processes, and likely to stay <br/> that way.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>There are also those, primarily within the technical community, <br/> who feel that having transnational fora that can make meaningful <br/> decisions on anything related to the Internet, outside the narrow <br/> technical remit of the I* agencies, is a problem. There is perhaps a <br/> lingering sense of this within the ISOC decision (though there is more <br/> to it than that). But I get the feeling that the majority of us would <br/> cautiously welcome some more meaningful fora for addressing some <br/> broader IG issues, in the spirit of
NetMundial. There are some who <br/> would rather than took place by an expanded role for the IGF, but I <br/> don't think there are many of us who think that is likely to happen in <br/> the near future.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>So, I think we are more or less left with a majority that feels <br/> that something with similar goals to the NMI would be valuable, but <br/> the current NMI as proposed has some very real problems in structure <br/> and process, especially with the significant role of the WEF. The big <br/> question is how to respond to the existence of this badly flawed <br/> initiative.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>So we essentially have divisions between those who feel the <br/> process and structure so far is so badly flawed that the best response <br/> is to ignore it and hope that a better
initiative can be constructed <br/> after its failure, those who feel that with sufficient negotiation and <br/> pressure it can be wrenched into more acceptable shape, and those who <br/> feel that despite its significant flaws it might turn out to be a <br/> significant venue. I think these divisions are largely tactical (there <br/> are no insurmountable differences regarding the potential value of a <br/> forum with general aims similar to NMI, or on the significant flaws of <br/> this proposal to fill that space). Most of the arguments turn on <br/> whether or not it will turn out to be a significant forum. If it will <br/> be significant with or without CS, the argument is we should be <br/> involved. If ISOC withdrawal has already killed it, we should not <br/> bother participating. If CS involvement is the deciding factor on <br/> whether
or not it will be acceptable, then how should we use that <br/> potential leverage, or should we simply drop it on principle.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div>My opinion is that ISOC withdrawing has already holed it below <br/> the waterline, and it will not be a significant initiative unless it <br/> can drag the tech community back in to refloat it, and doing so would <br/> probably require the significant changes to the structure and process <br/> that CS wants. So, I'm probably in favour of no participation at this <br/> point, and maybe agreeing to participate at a later date if the <br/> structure is changed. But I regard that as a tactical decision at this <br/> point, and I certainly don't think anyone who does want to participate <br/> is letting down CS as a whole by choosing to do so.</div><br/> <div> </div><br/>
<div>David</div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div><br/> <div>On 21 Nov 2014, at 4:43 am, Deirdre Williams <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><a href="mailto:williams.deirdre@gmail.com" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="20">williams.deirdre@gmail.com</a></a>><span> </span>wrote:</div><br clear="none"><br/> <blockquote type="cite"><br/> <div dir="ltr"><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">I asked in an earlier post<span> </span><font color="#0000ff"><font face="arial, sans-serif">whether<br clear="none">civil society has been <br/> manoeuvred into a position in which choosing<br clear="none">not to be involved <br/> becomes not really an option?</font></font><br clear="none">As civil society we <br/> have a very broad range of perspective and<br clear="none">therefore it is much <br/>
more difficult for this group to act together<br clear="none">rapidly, as ISOC <br/> has done, when the nature of the issue itself is<br clear="none">still doubtful. <br/> Other people have already reminded us of the<br clear="none">hesitation before <br/> the NETmundial meeting in April, and the enthusiasm<br clear="none">(in general) <br/> which greeted the outcomes of that meeting, although<br clear="none">there are <br/> still some reservations – Renata just shared hers.</p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">My sympathies lean towards a <br/> reluctance<br clear="none">to provide legitimacy, but my common sense suggests <br/> the following:<br clear="none"></p><br clear="none"><br/> <ol></ol><br clear="none"><br/> <ul><li><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">As far as I can see the <br/> Netmundial<br clear="none">Initiative will
continue with or without us.</p><br clear="none"><br/> </li><li><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">Civil Society is split now <br/> (and<br clear="none">has been split for some time) so that any attempt at a <br/> boycott is<br clear="none">likely to fail because it will be <br/>incomplete.</p><br clear="none"><br/> </li><li><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">The invitation to join can <br/> be<br clear="none">presented in such a way as to provide legitimacy even if not <br/> all of<br clear="none">civil society agrees to accept. (This is what I meant <br/> by<br clear="none">“manoeuvred” above.)<span> </span><br clear="none"></p><br clear="none"><br/> </li><li><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">We have not been given a <br/> clear<br clear="none">picture of what the initiative is – it may prove to be <br/> something<br
clear="none">that meets our approval – or not.</p><br clear="none"><br/> </li><li><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">It is very important that <br/> any<br clear="none">civil society representatives who join that committee <br/> should be<br clear="none">people who go with an open mind. Those who disapprove <br/> are absenting<br clear="none">themselves anyway; it would be better to have <br/> representatives who<br clear="none">are initially neutral but open to be <br/> persuaded one way or the other.</p><br clear="none"><br/> </li><li><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">Finally, should the <br/> initiative<br clear="none">prove to be unacceptable, a well publicised walkout <br/> by the 5 civil<br clear="none">society representatives (who are also <br/> representing “the world”)<br clear="none">would be much easier to arrange and
<br/> much more effective than a<br clear="none">partial boycott before the meeting <br/> takes place.</p><br clear="none"></li></ul><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;">The discussion at the Geneva <br/> Internet<br clear="none">Conference about the Netmundial Initiative yesterday <br/> morning<br clear="none">(Wednesday 19<sup>th</sup>) was useful. On Tuesday during <br/> “<strong><font color="#58585a"><font face="Open Sans, sans-serif">Same<br clear="none">issues, different perspectives: <br/> overcoming policy silos in privacy<br clear="none">and data protection”,<span> </span></font></font></strong><strong><font face="Times New Roman, serif"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;">one<br clear="none">of the afternoon sessions,<span> </span></span></font></font></strong><font face="Times New Roman, serif">Brian<br clear="none">Trammell, Senior Researcher, <br/>
Communication Systems Group, ETH Zurich,<br clear="none">presenting the <br/> “technical” perspective, said of the Internet<br clear="none">Engineering Task <br/> Force (IETF</font><font face="Times New Roman, serif">)<br clear="none">that <br/> members are volunteers who “participate as individuals”.<br clear="none">This is <br/> also true of the Internet Governance Caucus, and essentially<br clear="none">of <br/> civil society as a whole. One of the freedoms that our society tries <br/> to<br clear="none">provide is the right of the individual to follow the dictates <br/> of<br clear="none">her/his own conscience. My own choice is a pragmatic one. It <br/> should<br clear="none">in no way be seen as a criticism of anyone else's point of <br/> view or<br clear="none">decision.</font><br clear="none"></p><p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:0in;"><font
face="Times New Roman, serif">Deirdre</font></p><br/> <div class="gmail_extra"><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div class="gmail_quote">On 20 November 2014 11:41, Mawaki Chango<span> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><a href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="24">kichango@gmail.com</a></a>></span><span> </span>wrote:<br clear="none"><br/> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;"><br/> <div dir="ltr"><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;">Fellas,</div><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;">Some of us have <br/> raised questions about the views of the Brazilian party (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://cgi.br/">CGI.br</a>) in <br/> this NMI business. But I know they are in a delicate position and <br/> may be concerned to appear as judge and jury if they come out <br/> strong for a position (and we can expect which that position would <br/> be.) Flavio is not on the IGC list but he granted me the <br/> permission to forward to this list this message of his below, <br/> originally posted to the Non-Commercial Stakeholder Group of <br/> ICANN's GNSO.</div><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;">Best,</div><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;"> </div><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;">Mawaki</div><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;"> </div><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;">
</div><br/> <div class="gmail_default">Fw: [NCSG-Discuss] UPDATE ON CIVIL <br/> SOCIETY PARTICIPATION IN NET MUNDIAL INITIATIVE<br clear="none"></div><br/> <div class="gmail_default"> </div><br/> <div class="gmail_default" style="FONT-SIZE:small;"><br/> <div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;"><font face="Arial">On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 12:55 AM, <br/> Flávio Rech Wagner <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><a href="mailto:flavio@INF.UFRGS.BR" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="link" x-apple-data-detectors-result="27">flavio@INF.UFRGS.BR</a></a>><span> </span>wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div><br clear="none" style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;"><br clear="none"
style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;"><br/> <div style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;">Robin<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I have been informed that the <br/> "transitional council" of the NMI - NETmundial Initiative (which <br/> contains representatives from ICANN,<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://cgi.br/">CGI.br</a><span> </span>and WEF and is provisory, <br/> until the 25 names of the permanent council have been defined) is <br/> having an intense dialogue with CSCG (the Civil Society <br/> Coordination Group) and, together, they shall come to a solution <br/> for appointing names to the council by consensus and fully <br/> respecting nominations from Civil Society.
There is no intention <br/> whatsoever from the transitional council to indicate names in a <br/> closed, top-down manner and without full endorsement from CSCG.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The transitional council also expects to <br/> achieve similar solutions for appointing names that will represent <br/> other stakeholder groups.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Please <br/> notice that<span> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://cgi.br/">CGI.br</a><span> </span>(the Brazilian Internet <br/> Steering Committee), which is one of the entities proposing the <br/> NMI, would never agree with top-down, closed decisions that would <br/> strongly undermine CGI's legitimacy as a true bottom-up, <br/> multistakeholder body.<span> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://cgi.br/">CGI.br</a><span> </span>is completely committed <br/> to preserve the NETmundial principles in the implementation of the <br/> NMI.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Please remember also that, when <br/> NETmundial was proposed by the end of 2013, all of us in the <br/> global Internet Governance (IG) community, because of lack of <br/> information, were puzzled about its organization and possible <br/> success and outcomes. But the global community faced the challenge <br/> and transformed a vague idea into a successful event, with a true <br/> multistakeholder organization, with very open and transparent <br/> processes, and with a final document that was achieved by rough <br/> consensus and approved governance principles that were praised by <br/> most of the stakeholders (including human
rights and other <br/> principles that are extremely valued by Civil Society).<span> </span><br clear="none"><br clear="none">So let's try to transform NMI, which is still also a <br/> vague idea, into something that is concrete and useful for the <br/> advancement of IG and that fully respects the principles enshrined <br/> in the NETmundial declaration.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Flávio<br clear="none">(NCUC member and member of the <br/> Board of<span> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://cgi.br/">CGI.br</a>)<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div><br/> <div class="gmail_extra"><br/> <div> </div><br/> <div class="gmail_quote"> </div></div></div><br clear="none"><br clear="none">____________________________________________________________<br clear="none"><br clear="none">You <br/> received this
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