<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 22 Nov 2014, at 3:17 am, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cool, there is a now fork in this discussion!…<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">All those who think we are discussing somewhat abstract notions drawn from International Relations theory please follow David Cake,</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I know you aren't discussing ideas from IR theory, Michael, but your arguments would be improved if you understood them a little. For example the standard definition of Internet Governance from WGIG derives straight from regime theory. And it might help you understand why the rest of civil society sees the role of democracy in internet governance differently (hint: when an autocratic nation casts a ballot in an international forum, democracy is not enhanced thereby). </div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> everyone else can stay and grind their way forward here discussing issues of concern to Civil Society.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Your tireless rhetoric on the issue of neo-liberal economics may not be of as much concern to broader civil society as you think, Michael. I think by this stage most of us are fairly familiar with it. </div><div><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </span><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m guessing that the argument appearing as an Editorial in the peer reviewed<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.ci-journal.net/index.php/ciej/article/view/1125/1105" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">Journal of Community Informatics</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>won’t count (since I edit the journal) </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>It only counts as peer reviewed if it was actually peer reviewed, yes. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>And I was also hoping for something that had references and such as academic papers normally do. But a rant that is strategically situated next to some academic papers will have to do for now, </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">re: your challenge concerning peer reviewed publication,</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So, the answer to my question is no, then? OK. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> but I do note via Google Scholar that the blogpost has been cited at least once in what appears to be a peer reviewed conference paper. (That isn’t bad for an academic citation given that most journals etc. need a minimum of 18 months from receipt to publication and the paper only appeared about 4 months ago.)</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Being cited in a peer reviewed conference paper is not the same as being one. I could cite the Daily Mail in a peer reviewed paper if it was relevant. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>But the only cite of that editorial I could find was by your JNC colleague Richard Hill in a seminar paper, not sure if that was peer reviewed. Richard must have liked it though, it was the only thing he referenced not written by himself!</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David Cake [<a href="mailto:dave@difference.com.au">mailto:dave@difference.com.au</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, November 21, 2014 9:57 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Suresh Ramasubramanian; Guru; Sivasubramanian M<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [governance] URGENT: Last call for feedback on CS participation in NETmundial Initiative<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On 22 Nov 2014, at 1:22 am, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As anyone with any familiarity with Civil Society will know, the term Neo-liberal is a very common term of art in Civil Society analyses particularly outside of the 5 Eyes consortia countries.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Yes, and as anyone with any familiarity with International Relations theory will know, the term neo-liberal is a very common term of art in the entire field, meaning something somewhat different (though not 100% unrelated). But I do rather suspect that familiarity with IR theory is not common among JNC members, as I've not yet seen JNC analysis that seems particularly informed by it. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The current discussions concerning neo-liberalism in public policy areas generally link directly back to “the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Consensus" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">Washington Consensus</span></a>”</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Yes, yes, just because the way you use the term annoys me doesn't mean I don't understand what you mean by it. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For a more direct linkage of these discussions concerning neo-liberalism to IG see <a href="http://alainet.org/active/73028" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://alainet.org/active/73028</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></blockquote><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I'm tiresomely familiar with the argument, thank you, but I still don't agree with it. <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Do you have anything on that argument that has made it into a peer reviewed journal, BTW? It would be useful to have something to cite. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Cheers<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>David<o:p></o:p></div></div></div>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, visit:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br><br>For all other list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance</a><br>To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br><br>Translate this email:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>