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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Lee,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>How to reply to a rather convoluted argument where I’m invoked not to reply…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I think a discussion on how to engage multiple voices in discussion on (global) public policy issues is a subject of very considerable concern and interest. And <a href="http://gurstein.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/in-defense-of-multistakeholder-processes/">something that I have argued for</a> and even begun some more academic research and engagement on. However, “legitimizing” i.e. letting the nose of the corporate camel into the global governance tent is to me not the place to begin. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Certainly there is a role for corporate involvement (and engagement) in the lead up to global governance decisions/decision making but precisely how that is done and under what conditions in an overall framework of democratic governance is something which needs to be very carefully worked out and not blundered into because it i.e. the NMI happens to be a first somewhat glittering trinket put on offer. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(And no offense taken, although I’m having doubts on how specifically “Canadian” interests might be advanced either by my intervention or even your interpretation of my intervention :0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Lee W McKnight [mailto:lmcknigh@syr.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 21, 2014 10:14 AM<br><b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org; '"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"'; 'David Cake'; 'Ian Peter'; michael gurstein<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] URGENT: Last call for feedback on CS participation in NETmundial Initiative<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Michael,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From the quote you critique, you are therefore saying 'open source-like' and 'on-demand' are - not - good approaches? Perhaps I misunderstood.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>It then appears that instead you imply you prefer the current system where tax and Internet issues are discussed in OECD, and to an extent in WTO, or bilaterally and in regional trade and economic zones like the just concluded APEC sessions, with more or less biz and cs/academic input often behind closed doors, including of course from Amazon and Disney when they wish. But generally that might be under rules of confidentiality during the planning phase, so a more transparent multistakeholder effort is not welcomed by JNC. Or maybe I misunderstood again?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>And you are clear however that there should be no venue like NMI - might be - to broaden the discussion either to impacts on non-OECD governments, or enable other CS actor's views to be brought to the table. Such as those from Brazil and other developing/emerging market nations -citizens as individuals - who may have limited access to play in those other venues. Or maybe I misunderstood a third time.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>But I definitely understand how that set of views might serve - some- Canadian interests, unsure about others.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Lee<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>PS: Of course I mean no offense, only to demonstrate how easy it is to play certain rhetorical games. I'll retire now again to academic duties, having at least clarified this discussion to my satisfaction. No need to reply Michael, your points are taken and more or less understood as you see above, thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#282828'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></span></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='color:black'> <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> <<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>> on behalf of michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 21, 2014 12:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; '"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"'; 'David Cake'; 'Ian Peter'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] URGENT: Last call for feedback on CS participation in NETmundial Initiative</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>Wolfgang, I could be wrong but I read the below as referring to rather more than simply being "project oriented".<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>Latest statement from NMI<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><i><span style='color:#282828'>The aim is to strengthen the capacity of the multistakeholder Internet governance ecosystem to respond effectively in an open-source, on-demand manner to concrete challenges identified by individual stakeholders, whether on economic, social or security policy concerns or technical matters.</span></i><span style='color:#282828'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'><a href="https://www.netmundial.org/blog/secretariat/netmundial-initiative-answers-common-questions">https://www.netmundial.org/blog/secretariat/netmundial-initiative-answers-common-questions</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>As I said earlier I'm looking forward to the multistakeholderization of global tax policy with Google and Amazon as full partners and of copyright policy with Disney as equal footing stakeholders (as at Netmundial for example).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"<br>Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 4:29 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; David Cake; Ian Peter<br>Cc: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>Subject: AW: [governance] URGENT: Last call for feedback on CS participation in NETmundial Initiative<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>NMI is - in my eyes - not predetermined. It is an Invitation to be creative. It will become what the people make out of it. It will be project oriented. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>So when we talk about how VCS could become involved and what the conditions for our cooperation would be we should also talk about what projects we should propose. I would prioritize projects to support education and training, to enhance access in underserved regions and to look for innovative mechanisms to have human rights assessment procedures both for national and international Internet related public policy making in existing organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>Wolfgang<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>Von: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a> im Auftrag von David Cake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>Gesendet: Fr 21.11.2014 10:03<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>An: Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>Cc: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>Betreff: Re: [governance] URGENT: Last call for feedback on CS participation in NETmundial Initiative<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>On 21 Nov 2014, at 4:53 pm, Ian Peter <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>ian.peter@ianpeter.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> Hi David,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> Bear in mind that (as I understand it) ISOC has yet to fully consult its chapters and members about this decision so I wouldn't be too surprised to see some adjustments to their current position.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> That is true - but I understand this was a decision of the Board of Trustees, which is a fairly large group that includes members from a multiple chapters, so I think it relatively unlikely that broader consultation will change it too much. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>I think if their position changes, it would be more likely to be due to changes to the NMI proposal. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> As Jeanette pointed out, ISOC was originally opposed to the formation of IGF, a position they reversed fairly quickly when IGF got under way. It's also not many years ago that ISOC was arguing for NTIA to continue its oversight role of the root zone - a position that began to evolve after member chapters became involved in reversing that policy decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> Absolutely. I don't think ISOC will necessarily maintain opposition to the idea of something like NMI. But will NMI itself change enough to become that something?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'> David (FWIW, I'm a member of ISOC-AU, but just a member, I have no particular insight into their thinking)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> So things do change.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> From: David Cake<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 6:39 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> To: Arsene TUNGALI<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> Cc: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a> ; <a href="mailto:williams.deirdre@gmail.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>williams.deirdre@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> Subject: Re: [governance] URGENT: Last call for feedback on CS <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> participation in NETmundial Initiative<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> I think if ISOC continues to not be involved, and there is no significant buy in from other I* orgs other than ICANN, then the NMI will not end up being a very significant process anyway. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> But I certainly think that if the CSCG, or individual groups within it, continue to negotiate, and particularly if there is a significant change that responds to ISOC concerns, then that is no problem. If CS members wish to participate in the process in the hope that happens, I have no problem with that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> That said, I'd be surprised if ISOC change their position without huge changes to the process (possibly equivalent to more or less starting again).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> I personally doubt JNC will rejoin the process unless WEF is effectively removed from any leadership role, but I'm sure they are more than capable of explaining their position themselves.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> David<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> On 21 Nov 2014, at 3:23 pm, Arsene TUNGALI <<a href="mailto:arsenebaguma@yahoo.fr"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>arsenebaguma@yahoo.fr</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> David, you are right in many of the points raised but...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Not participating, in my opinion, will result in no change of structure or so within NMI. However, being part of it will certainly shape it. We need people who will challenge them to sit on the same table for face-to-face debates.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> From my understanding, ISOC, JNC and other groups who are againts will be happy to join if there is some major changes happening. But trust me, no change will happen if we remain on arguing on mailing lists rather than on that table.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> I encourage those who are willing to join to go and help change the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> course of things within NMI so the other CS bodies can join as well:)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> ------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Arsene Tungali,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Executive Director, Rudi International <a href="http://www.rudiinternational.org/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>www.rudiinternational.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Founder, Mabingwa Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <a href="http://www.mabingwa-forum.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>www.mabingwa-forum.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Phone:+243993810967<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> ICANN Fellow | ISOC Member | Child Online Protection Advocate | Youth Leader | Internet Governance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> At 21 nov. 2014 09:10:39, David Cake<'dave@difference.com.au'> wrote:I think Deirdre speaks a fair bit of sense here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> I don't think the two sides of this debate are as far apart some would suggest.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> The majority of CS certainly seemed to feel that the initial proposal for structure presented by the NMI founding organisations was very badly flawed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> Now, it may be that there are some within JNC and other parts of civil society who are willing to write off the entire enterprise simply because WEF is one of the founding organisations, regardless of the specific role it has in the current structure. That position generally goes along with an opposition to all fora in which commercial organisations are full participants (a familiar JNC refrain), and I think we can say that is solidly a minority position within CS groups that participate in IG processes, and likely to stay that way.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> There are also those, primarily within the technical community, who feel that having transnational fora that can make meaningful decisions on anything related to the Internet, outside the narrow technical remit of the I* agencies, is a problem. There is perhaps a lingering sense of this within the ISOC decision (though there is more to it than that). But I get the feeling that the majority of us would cautiously welcome some more meaningful fora for addressing some broader IG issues, in the spirit of NetMundial. There are some who would rather than took place by an expanded role for the IGF, but I don't think there are many of us who think that is likely to happen in the near future.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> So, I think we are more or less left with a majority that feels that something with similar goals to the NMI would be valuable, but the current NMI as proposed has some very real problems in structure and process, especially with the significant role of the WEF. The big question is how to respond to the existence of this badly flawed initiative.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> So we essentially have divisions between those who feel the process and structure so far is so badly flawed that the best response is to ignore it and hope that a better initiative can be constructed after its failure, those who feel that with sufficient negotiation and pressure it can be wrenched into more acceptable shape, and those who feel that despite its significant flaws it might turn out to be a significant venue. I think these divisions are largely tactical (there are no insurmountable differences regarding the potential value of a forum with general aims similar to NMI, or on the significant flaws of this proposal to fill that space). Most of the arguments turn on whether or not it will turn out to be a significant forum. If it will be significant with or without CS, the argument is we should be involved. If ISOC withdrawal has already killed it, we should not bother participating. If CS involvement is the deciding factor on whether or not it will be acceptable, then how should we use that potential leverage, or should we simply drop it on principle.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> My opinion is that ISOC withdrawing has already holed it below the waterline, and it will not be a significant initiative unless it can drag the tech community back in to refloat it, and doing so would probably require the significant changes to the structure and process that CS wants. So, I'm probably in favour of no participation at this point, and maybe agreeing to participate at a later date if the structure is changed. But I regard that as a tactical decision at this point, and I certainly don't think anyone who does want to participate is letting down CS as a whole by choosing to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> David<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> On 21 Nov 2014, at 4:43 am, Deirdre Williams <<a href="mailto:williams.deirdre@gmail.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>williams.deirdre@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> I asked in an earlier post whether<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> civil society has been manoeuvred into a position in which choosing <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> not to be involved becomes not really an option?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> As civil society we have a very broad range of perspective and <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> therefore it is much more difficult for this group to act together <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> rapidly, as ISOC has done, when the nature of the issue itself is <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> still doubtful. Other people have already reminded us of the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> hesitation before the NETmundial meeting in April, and the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> enthusiasm (in general) which greeted the outcomes of that meeting, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> although there are still some reservations - Renata just shared hers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> My sympathies lean towards a reluctance to provide legitimacy, but <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> my common sense suggests the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> As far as I can see the Netmundial<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Initiative will continue with or without us.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Civil Society is split now (and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> has been split for some time) so that any attempt at a boycott is <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> likely to fail because it will be incomplete.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> The invitation to join can be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> presented in such a way as to provide legitimacy even if not all of <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> civil society agrees to accept. (This is what I meant by <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> "manoeuvred" above.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> We have not been given a clear<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> picture of what the initiative is - it may prove to be something <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> that meets our approval - or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> It is very important that any<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> civil society representatives who join that committee should be <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> people who go with an open mind. Those who disapprove are absenting <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> themselves anyway; it would be better to have representatives who <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> are initially neutral but open to be persuaded one way or the other.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Finally, should the initiative<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> prove to be unacceptable, a well publicised walkout by the 5 civil <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> society representatives (who are also representing "the world") <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> would be much easier to arrange and much more effective than a <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> partial boycott before the meeting takes place.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> The discussion at the Geneva Internet Conference about the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Netmundial Initiative yesterday morning (Wednesday 19th) was useful. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> On Tuesday during "Same issues, different perspectives: overcoming <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> policy silos in privacy and data protection", one of the afternoon <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> sessions, Brian Trammell, Senior Researcher, Communication Systems <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Group, ETH Zurich, presenting the "technical" perspective, said of <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) that members are <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> volunteers who "participate as individuals".<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> This is also true of the Internet Governance Caucus, and essentially <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> of civil society as a whole. One of the freedoms that our society <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> tries to provide is the right of the individual to follow the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> dictates of her/his own conscience. My own choice is a pragmatic <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> one. It should in no way be seen as a criticism of anyone else's <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> point of view or decision.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Deirdre<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> On 20 November 2014 11:41, Mawaki Chango <<a href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>kichango@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Fellas,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Some of us have raised questions about the views of the Brazilian party (CGI.br) in this NMI business. But I know they are in a delicate position and may be concerned to appear as judge and jury if they come out strong for a position (and we can expect which that position would be.) Flavio is not on the IGC list but he granted me the permission to forward to this list this message of his below, originally posted to the Non-Commercial Stakeholder Group of ICANN's GNSO.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Mawaki<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Fw: [NCSG-Discuss] UPDATE ON CIVIL SOCIETY PARTICIPATION IN NET <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> MUNDIAL INITIATIVE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 12:55 AM, Flávio Rech Wagner <<a href="mailto:flavio@INF.UFRGS.BR"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>flavio@INF.UFRGS.BR</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Robin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> I have been informed that the "transitional council" of the NMI - NETmundial Initiative (which contains representatives from ICANN,CGI.br and WEF and is provisory, until the 25 names of the permanent council have been defined) is having an intense dialogue with CSCG (the Civil Society Coordination Group) and, together, they shall come to a solution for appointing names to the council by consensus and fully respecting nominations from Civil Society. There is no intention whatsoever from the transitional council to indicate names in a closed, top-down manner and without full endorsement from CSCG.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> The transitional council also expects to achieve similar solutions for appointing names that will represent other stakeholder groups.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Please notice that CGI.br (the Brazilian Internet Steering Committee), which is one of the entities proposing the NMI, would never agree with top-down, closed decisions that would strongly undermine CGI's legitimacy as a true bottom-up, multistakeholder body. CGI.br is completely committed to preserve the NETmundial principles in the implementation of the NMI.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Please remember also that, when NETmundial was proposed by the end of 2013, all of us in the global Internet Governance (IG) community, because of lack of information, were puzzled about its organization and possible success and outcomes. But the global community faced the challenge and transformed a vague idea into a successful event, with a true multistakeholder organization, with very open and transparent processes, and with a final document that was achieved by rough consensus and approved governance principles that were praised by most of the stakeholders (including human rights and other principles that are extremely valued by Civil Society). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> So let's try to transform NMI, which is still also a vague idea, into something that is concrete and useful for the advancement of IG and that fully respects the principles enshrined in the NETmundial declaration.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> Flávio<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> (NCUC member and member of the Board of CGI.br)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> ____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <a href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing"><span 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Prize Economics, 1979<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> ____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>governance@lists.igcaucus.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span style='color:#282828'>>>> To be removed from the list, visit:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='background:white'><span 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