<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 25 Oct 2014, at 2:19 am, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As I pointed out in an earlier message MSism as presented bears absolutely no relationship to Participatory Democracy, in fact it is exactly the opposite—rather than extending or broadening the opportunity for effective participation MSism restricts this by putting the condition of “stakeholdership”.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In iCANN processes, general users of the Internet qualify as stakeholders. While obviously it is impractical for someone who does not yet have access to the Internet to directly participate, there is no barrier to anyone who wishes to advocate for the interests of that group participating, and some do. There are no effective bars to participation based on the definition of stakeholder. This applies to most other MS bodies - for example, becoming involved with an IETF process is literally as simple as joining a mailing list. If you want to be involved in a specific process, you can. They are very open - far, far, more open than any government policy development process of which I am aware. </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>And Michael, you should know this. Are you ignorant of this, despite having allegedly studied these institutions for years, or disingenuously lumping IG MS bodies in with the WEF etc again?</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>You keep using 'self-appointed' as if it is a terrible thing. If the process is truly open, of course many participants will be self-appointed. You keep using self-appointed pejoratively - I'm taking from this that you want a closed process, in which all participants are gatekeepered (presumably by governments, or some other bureaucratic process?)?</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Regards</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>David<br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: windowtext;">Participatory democracy</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: windowtext;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is a process emphasizing the broad<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_%28decision_making%29" title="Participation (decision making)" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">participation</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>of constituents in the direction and operation of political systems. Etymological roots of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy" title="Democracy" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">democracy</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Greek<i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demos" title="wikt:demos" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">demos</a></i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82" title="wikt:κράτος" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">kratos</a></i>) imply that the people are in power and thus that all democracies are participatory. …<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: windowtext;">Participatory democracy strives to create opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making, and seeks to broaden the range of people who have access to such opportunities.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="color: windowtext;">It seems to me that decision making a la MSism by self-appointed elites (corporates, their governmental allies and whomever else they choose to participate) hardly qualifies as “creat(ing) opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making”.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">M<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; position: static; z-index: auto;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Jeremy Malcolm [<a href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, October 24, 2014 11:13 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>michael gurstein;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [governance] Re: [IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">On 24/10/2014 11:03 am, michael gurstein wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">As you and perhaps everyone well knows I have for several<u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>years<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></u>both via these email lists and my blog been asking for a definition of “MSism”, each time getting a reply somewhat parallel to Gene’s trivial response “<i>Yes, I am very busy making public declarations as appropriate on important matters. And I'm sure I and many others will address this issue when we see the right time and place to do so</i>.”<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">And I realize how important you are and how valuable your time is but surely since this has been a dominant meme and priority initiative for you and other elements of CS for several years some type of definition would be appropriate and surely sometime over those last few years there would have been a “right time and place” to give that definition!<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br>That's why I set up a fluid working group under Best Bits to develop such a definition, but there was not much participation (or maybe the LiquidFeedback software was too complex for people to be comfortable using):<br><br><a href="http://bestbits.net/lf/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://bestbits.net/lf/</a><br><br>So far, FWIW, this is the definition that has most support (Avri wrote it):<br><br>Multistakeholderism: study and practice of forms of participatory democracy that allow for all those who have a stake and who have the inclination, to participate on equal footing in the deliberation of issues and the recommendation of solutions. While final decisions and implementation may be assigned to a single stakeholder group, these decision makers are always accountable to all of the stakeholders for their decisions and the implementations.<o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">with the following definitions of some included terms<o:p></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Equal footing:<o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The recognition, enjoyment or exercise by all stakeholders, on the basis of equality and without discrimination, of the freedom to participate in multistakeholder processes. In Internet governance this is in line with stakeholders’ roles and responsibilities, which should be interpreted in a flexible manner with reference to the issue under discussion. As with UN representation by governments, where all are equal regardless of size or wealth, contributions should be judged on their quality, and not by the number of people that a representative may claim. Notions of equal footing must take into account all aspects of capacity to participate, and must strive to enable full participation through capacity building and development agendas.<o:p></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Stakeholder:<o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">A term borrowed from Project Management.<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">” Loosely defined, a stakeholder is a person or group of people who can affect or be affected by a given project. Stakeholders can be individuals working on a project, groups of people or organizations, or even segments of a population. A stakeholder may be actively involved in a project’s work, affected by the project’s outcome, or in a position to affect the project’s success. “<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">and the derivative:<o:p></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Multistakeholder process:<o:p></o:p></span></div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">A form of participatory democracy where any person, alone or as part of a group, can contribute fully.<o:p></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></div><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Jeremy Malcolm<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Senior Global Policy Analyst<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Electronic Frontier Foundation<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a href="https://eff.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://eff.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a href="mailto:jmalcolm@eff.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">jmalcolm@eff.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Tel: 415.436.9333 ext 161<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">:: Defending Your Rights in the Digital World ::<o:p></o:p></pre></div>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>