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<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Which is much the same as a
politician or bureaucrat representing an entire country. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">A NGO working with a group of
people or an email provider with millions of users may well have their
users or stakeholder group's concerns and feedback in mind rather than mere
political ideologies or business interests when they contribute. <br>
</p>
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<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
25 October 2014 6:22:23 pm "michael gurstein"
<gurstein@gmail.com> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"><div
class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Well
first of all by definition “those who contribute” are “self-selected”… they
chose to contribute and were not selected by others such as organizations,
community groups, nation states or whoever to contribute on their
behalf…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Demographically
etc. they practically are an “elite” in that they are part of that
extremely small sub-set of possible contributors who have the skills,
knowledge, resources (including time/money) to contribute where others who
might have a concern or might be impacted do not have sufficient skills,
knowledge, resources etc. … <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div
style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October
24, 2014 3:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org;
'Sivasubramanian M'; 'David Allen'; michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b>
bestbits@lists.bestbits.net; forum@justnetcoalition.org<br><b>Subject:</b>
RE: [bestbits] [governance] Re: [IRPCoalition] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign
on period for ITU Plenipot joint
recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in'><span
style='color:black'>How does 'those who contribute' equate to a self
selected elite? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
style='mso-margin-top-alt:10.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0in'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>On 24
October 2014 5:59:09 pm "michael gurstein" <<a
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote
style='border:none;border-left:solid gray 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
5.0pt;margin-left:4.5pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
issue is not of course whether there should be the broadest base of
“consultation” possible prior to decision making (including
“multi-stakeholder” presumably because those involved will have direct
knowledge of the affairs under discussion). This is quite different
from “governance” which includes processes of actual decision
making—allocation of resources, determination of benefits and so on.
Including corporate foxes (for example) to guard public henhouses strikes
me as an exceedingly bad way of proceeding.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
issue is to whom are the decision makers ultimately accountable—in a
Democracy, aspirationally to “the people”, in a MSist world to
self-selected elite “stakeholders”.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>
[<a
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net">mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sivasubramanian M<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24,
2014 1:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> David Allen<br><b>Cc:</b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
Bits <a
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>;
<a
href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [bestbits] [governance] Re: [IRPCoalition] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign
on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Dear David
Allen,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>It requires
different variations of the Multi-Stakeholder model for </span><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>different
purposes. For the purpose of Internet Governance, we have 700 seats in the
room with 7000 participants in rotation, with 70 million others listening,
which is sufficient. If we are extending this thought to the government of
Nations or the World, then it would not be a replacement for Democracy, but
an enhancement (or call it a Complement), in the sense that the Elected
Representatives and the Appointed Functionaries would involve the rest of
the people in day to day debates and decisions by using the
Multi-stakeholder model. So, in a scenario where the multi-stakeholder
model is extended to the larger arena of Governance, after elections, those
elected would make choices by the multi-staekholder model.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>There is a
positive, apolitical reason why Multi-stakeholder model would be
advantageous. We often find that Governments do not always find solutions
to problems, some of which are complex problems. Think of the
multi-stakeholder process as a process of consulting Stakeholders who are
experts in their own respective sphere. Governments get to have varied
expertise leading to creative solutions to problems that they are either
unable to solve, or ineffectively resolve.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Sivasubramanian
M</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><br
clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'><a
href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy"
target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>+1 (213) 300 8293 Oct 11-19
2014<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 1:19 AM,
David Allen <<a href="mailto:David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu"
target="_blank">David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'>Ah yes, you complain that, after elections, only those
elected make choices. Though of course, those who did the electing
did make a choice, of their representatives, in the first place
...<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>But you imagine some evolution to
a model where anyone who shows up has a place - and those who do not, of
course, well too bad for them ... Hmmm
...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>In the first case, there is
opportunity for the masses to speak through the ballot box. And for
the second place, you will arrange for a table with 7 billion places at
it? And arrange to get everyone there? So, since there is no
ballot box, they can speak?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Or, you prefer CJ Leung's [Hong
Kong] approach, where we 'don't want to be representing the poor
folk'? So ceding power to the
powerful?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:#888888'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'>David</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Oct 24, 2014, at 3:35 PM,
Sivasubramanian M <<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com"
target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>It is not fair to
say that the Multistakeholder model restricts participation. In fact the
opposite is true because this new model has a working framework in place
for bringing in participants other than elected representatives and
appointed functionaries ( would not be very wrong to class these them both
under "Government") to the table. And it is too early in the
evolutionary phase of multistakeholder model to draw a conclusion that the
participating stakeholders </span><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>are not
representative enough. </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The contrary of
what you said is true. By its definition, by its intentions, and by the
framework already in place, Multistakeholderism DOES extend AND broaden the
opportunity for EFFECTIVE participation. </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><a
href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy"
target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 11:49 PM,
michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>MSism as presented bears
absolutely no relationship to Participatory Democracy, in fact it is
exactly the opposite—rather than extending or broadening the opportunity
for effective participation MSism restricts this by putting the condition
of “stakeholdership”<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
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