<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Thanks Avri.<div><br></div><div>The irony might lay somewhere else: it appears that your vision of a future (to-be-achieved) MSism tends to ignore a necessary critic of what MS was and still is. It also appears to start with the premise that any current form of classical representativity or democracy should be seen as non valid form to contribute to the future of Internet Governance, in order to switch from the current asymmetry to a so-called Participative MS Democratic form of Internet Governance. The irony is that everything that is related to classical representation, governmental actors, national or transnational law is considered as BAD for IG. This dogma - to exclude classical means of representativity or Democracy - is as radical as to refuse to listen to engineers, business, researchers, civil society who contribute directly or indirectly to IG. And to label the ones calling for respect of classical representativity or democracy "radical multilateralist" is simply unfair.</div><div><br></div><div>When you look at all the institutions performing in the IG, irony is that the only ones with some global, transnational representativity and legitimacy are the UN ones, including the ITU. From ICANN, to IETF, ISOC or the WEF none of these are an inch close to legitimate or democratic standards. And I do not buy the idea that IETF's MSism could be the perfect example of an 'enhanced form of participative democracy", as David Froomkin has tried to convince himself of by explaining that IETF'sMSism was an Habermas compliant ultimate form of democratic governance.</div><div><br></div><div>So to suggest that we could achieve a Participative MS Democratic model for IG by telling everyone that <i>evil for IG</i> emerges from bodies related to national, transnational, UN circles, is a clear form of democratic bashing. Telling us like Milton does, that we should aim at a global citizenry that would be the perfect level of representativity for IG is pretty "charming", but we, our children, grand children, grand grand children will probably never see any such level of citizenry. We might see ourselves as citizen of the World, the global community of citizen still has no legal, democratic fabric and existence. Victor Hugo called for the United Sates of Europe back in the nineteen century and we are still centuries away from it. So between the classical existing frames of representativity (and legitimacy) and the utopian (without topos) Interland you tend to call for, one can see that, in the meantime, a few are still holding the strings of IG for their benefits, having no consideration for social justice, fair digital development for all...</div><div><br></div><div>To transform the current asymmetry means to root our fundamental approach and reflection is "simple" democratic principles. Not in vague, undefined, floating definitions. This only helps to maintain the unfair setting of power in IG.</div><div><br></div><div>Do we know what is Democracy? Yes. Can we enhance it? Probably, yes. Do we know what is "Enhanced Democracy"? I do not see what it is, would be somehow afraid to understand that it is a form of democracy that works better than democracy: most people explaining us that Nations, including Democracies are unable to perform their collective duty, ranging from Nicolas Berggruen and its digital friends in San Francisco to radical MSists, including Jeremy : "October 25, 2014 : <i>it is almost a truism that for a variety of reasons nation states no longer possess either the legitimacy to claim, or the capacity to exercise, sole authority over global governance particularly in regimes (such as Internet governance) where public policy decisions have significant transnational impacts." </i>I am not a pro apprenti-sorcier.<br><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; ">By constantly rejecting the classical elements/achievements/principles of our political life and societies, one is feeding the <i>beast</i> that is rejecting any form of progress for IG in terms of participation, inclusiveness at the citizen level, through old and new means. For many of them, MSists of today do ally willingly or not with the current owners of the Internet, and its new born cousin, the Internet of things.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div>You cannot ignore that.</div><div><br></div><div>JC</div>
<br><div><div>Le 24 oct. 2014 à 23:17, Avri Doria a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24-Oct-14 16:15, Jean-Christophe
NOTHIAS I The Global Journal wrote:<br>
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<blockquote cite="mid:F7AC7675-BBAA-4479-BF1F-3B37CF9D96B7@theglobaljournal.net" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I think that Avri's definition remains Avri's idealistic view of a digital Wonderland that she is by the same token contributing to keep at bay from any form of democratic thinking with such non sense (no offense Avri!):</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
No offense taken. We see the world and the functioning of
institutions differently. I can live with that. I do not believe
my descriptions are idealistic, I believe I am describing what I see
and the environment I work within. What I think is not only
normative, it is descriptive. As with representative democracy, in
the places in which some model exists, participatory democracy is
not a perfected thing. I agree is is something we strive to make
better, and in the trenches of these institutions we keep striving
to improve it.<br>
<br>
I do find it ironic that during a period when we are striving to
find a way to allow the US government to finally give up its
solitary position guarding the stability of the Internet, we are
still being accused of supporting their continued position.<br>
<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
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