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<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">How does 'those who contribute'
equate to a self selected elite? <br>
</p>
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<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
24 October 2014 5:59:09 pm "michael gurstein"
<gurstein@gmail.com> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"><div
class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
issue is not of course whether there should be the broadest base of
“consultation” possible prior to decision making (including
“multi-stakeholder” presumably because those involved will have direct
knowledge of the affairs under discussion). This is quite different from
“governance” which includes processes of actual decision making—allocation
of resources, determination of benefits and so on. Including corporate
foxes (for example) to guard public henhouses strikes me as an exceedingly
bad way of proceeding.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
issue is to whom are the decision makers ultimately accountable—in a
Democracy, aspirationally to “the people”, in a MSist world to
self-selected elite “stakeholders”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net
[mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Sivasubramanian M<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 1:06
PM<br><b>To:</b> David Allen<br><b>Cc:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org;
Bits bestbits@lists.bestbits.net;
forum@justnetcoalition.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] [governance]
Re: [IRPCoalition] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot
joint recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Dear David
Allen,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>It requires
different variations of the Multi-Stakeholder model for </span><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>different
purposes. For the purpose of Internet Governance, we have 700 seats in the
room with 7000 participants in rotation, with 70 million others listening,
which is sufficient. If we are extending this thought to the government of
Nations or the World, then it would not be a replacement for Democracy, but
an enhancement (or call it a Complement), in the sense that the Elected
Representatives and the Appointed Functionaries would involve the rest of
the people in day to day debates and decisions by using the
Multi-stakeholder model. So, in a scenario where the multi-stakeholder
model is extended to the larger arena of Governance, after elections, those
elected would make choices by the multi-staekholder
model.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>There is a
positive, apolitical reason why Multi-stakeholder model would be
advantageous. We often find that Governments do not always find solutions
to problems, some of which are complex problems. Think of the
multi-stakeholder process as a process of consulting Stakeholders who are
experts in their own respective sphere. Governments get to have varied
expertise leading to creative solutions to problems that they are either
unable to solve, or ineffectively
resolve.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Sivasubramanian
M<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br
clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a
href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy"
target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal>+1 (213) 300 8293 Oct 11-19
2014<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Oct
25, 2014 at 1:19 AM, David Allen <<a
href="mailto:David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu"
target="_blank">David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ah yes, you complain
that, after elections, only those elected make choices. Though of
course, those who did the electing did make a choice, of their
representatives, in the first place ...<o:p></o:p></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But you
imagine some evolution to a model where anyone who shows up has a place -
and those who do not, of course, well too bad for them ... Hmmm
...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In the
first case, there is opportunity for the masses to speak through the ballot
box. And for the second place, you will arrange for a table with 7
billion places at it? And arrange to get everyone there? So,
since there is no ballot box, they can speak?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Or, you
prefer CJ Leung's [Hong Kong] approach, where we 'don't want to be
representing the poor folk'? So ceding power to the
powerful?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:#888888'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:#888888'>David<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>On Oct
24, 2014, at 3:35 PM, Sivasubramanian M <<a
href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com"
target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>It is not fair to
say that the Multistakeholder model restricts participation. In fact the
opposite is true because this new model has a working framework in place
for bringing in participants other than elected representatives and
appointed functionaries ( would not be very wrong to class these them both
under "Government") to the table. And it is too early in the
evolutionary phase of multistakeholder model to draw a conclusion that the
participating stakeholders </span><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>are not
representative enough.</span><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The contrary of
what you said is true. By its definition, by its intentions, and by the
framework already in place, Multistakeholderism DOES extend AND broaden the
opportunity for EFFECTIVE
participation. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br
clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a
href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy"
target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Oct
24, 2014 at 11:49 PM, michael gurstein <<a
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>MSism as presented bears absolutely
no relationship to Participatory Democracy, in fact it is exactly the
opposite—rather than extending or broadening the opportunity for effective
participation MSism restricts this by putting the condition of
“stakeholdership”<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'></span><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p
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