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<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Why isn't a multi stakeholder
process any less broad or inclusive than say a multi lateral government
only model, or a Parliamentary model in which a few elected representatives
(whom you may not even have voted for), or a bureaucrat employed by the
government elected by a country, determines policy that affects you? </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">True participatory democracy,
going by the letter of that wiki definition, appears to be found in the
cantons of Switzerland I guess, or on a smaller scale, in a local club
where every member has a voice and a stake on where to hold their annual
event, for example. </p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
24 October 2014 10:33:45 am "michael gurstein"
<gurstein@gmail.com> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"><div
class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>No,
I don’t think so, Gene. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Siva
has made a very clear and simple statement here in the context of most of
those in CS currently active in the IG space on an issue of quite central
importance going forward.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I
would have thought that advocates of the MSist model would be only too
delighted to make a public declaration of opposition on this matter, or by
their silence indicate consent.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Gene Kimmelman
[mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014
7:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Sivasubramanian M;
forum@justnetcoalition.org; Avri Doria; IGC;
bestbits@lists.bestbits.net> IRP<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU
Plenipot joint recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>I'm sorry
Michael, but I think silence -- at least on my part -- indicates that many
of us just don't have the time to engage right now on the merits of this;
I'm just too busy and think this may be something better to discuss in
person at some future meeting.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Oct
24, 2014 at 9:59 AM, michael gurstein <<a
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Perhaps
we can assume here that silence is consent.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div
style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in'><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> michael
gurstein [mailto:<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October
24, 2014 6:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Sivasubramanian M'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Avri
Doria'; 'Bits <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>'; <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; IRP; <a
href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org"
target="_blank">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE:
[bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint
recommendations</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks
for this Sivasubramanian…</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Can
I/we take this i.e. that MSism (governance by self-appointed elites) is the
“next evolutionary stage of democracy” is a generally agreed upon position
among the proponents of MSism?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Sivasubramanian
M [<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com"
target="_blank">mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday,
October 24, 2014 6:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Avri
Doria; Bits <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint
recommendations</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Dear Michael
Gurstein,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>The definitions
are reconciled when the multistakeholder model is viewed as the next phase
of evolution of Democracy, and in this phase, it is in its initial stages
of evolution with some aspects being
defined.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333'>Sivasubramanian
M</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br
clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a
href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy"
target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a
href="tel:%2B1%20%28213%29%20300%208293" target="_blank">+1 (213) 300
8293</a> Oct 11-19 2014<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Oct 23,
2014 at 12:57 PM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You
can of course a la the Lewis Carroll’s the Queen of Hearts define anything
you like as whatever you like but I’m very curious how your reconcile the
current practice of MSism with this definition of Participatory Democracy
(from Wikipedia</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><b>Participatory
democracy</b> is a process emphasizing the broad <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_%28decision_making%29"
target="_blank" title="Participation (decision making)">participation</a>
of constituents in the direction and operation of political systems.
Etymological roots of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy"
target="_blank" title=Democracy>democracy</a> (Greek <i><a
href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demos" target="_blank"
title="wikt:demos">demos</a></i> and <i><a
href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82"
target="_blank" title="wikt:κράτος">kratos</a></i>) imply that the people
are in power and thus that all democracies are participatory.
…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Participatory
democracy strives to create opportunities for all members of a population
to make meaningful contributions to decision-making, and seeks to broaden
the range of people who have access to such opportunities.<o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It seems to me
that decision making a la MSism by self-appointed elites (corporates, their
governmental allies and whomever else they choose to participate) hardly
qualifies as “creat(ing) opportunities for all members of a population to
make meaningful contributions to decision-making”.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>But maybe I’m
missing something.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div
style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in'><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Avri Doria<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:34
PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint
recommendations</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On 23-Oct-14
08:20, michael gurstein wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><blockquote
style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre> If you take a look at my
blog both the current post and several of the earlier ones you will see my
argument that MSism is being presented as a form of global governance in
competition with democratic governance.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br>I
haven't read your blog. But I always define multistakeholderism
(m17m) as a form of participatory democracy that builds on the
representative democracy that some few nations have put into effect as well
as the bottom-up organic coming together of stakeholders, who sometime
aggregate into stakeholder groups, on a particular theme. I define it
as a form of democracy somewhere between basic representative democracy and
full direct democracy.<br><br>I think many other accept some form of the
m17m is a form of participatory democracy definition. So the frames
of reference are really quite
different.<br><br>avri<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You
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style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>IRP
mailing list<br><a
href="mailto:IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org">IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a><br><a
href="https://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/mailman/listinfo/irp"
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