<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Dear Michael Gurstein,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Throughout history, when any revolution, mild or bloody, replaced an injustice, often it was by another (at inception or on deterioration). Russian Revolution displaced Dr.Zhivago's and the French Revolution guillotined a Sydney Carton or two. Communism and Socialism proved to evolve to bring up its own classes of elites, Democracy captivated the imagination of the common man for the past 2000 years, but little does the common man realizes that he has no role in the rule, except for his vote to elect the ones who rule. One of the ills of Democracy is that of skewed justice owing to the influence exercised by Interest of Lobby groups, formal and informal, visible and invisible. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">What is charming about Multistakeholderism is that it recognizes multiple interests and that the interests are visible and seated around the table, with a certain attempt to balance the interests of one another. This way, Multi-stakeholderism addresses one of the unspoken ills of Democracy. And in tiers, the whole world participates ( for e.g a tier on top with Participants in a Working Group, another tier of subscribers to a mailing list and yet another tier of Public Comments in the Public Comment + News or wider Blog space. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">I am not actually rejecting Democracy, but of the opinion that the inevitable gaps in Democracy could be effectively filled by the MultiStakeholder model, which could be viewed as, - forgive me for the pun - Enhanced Democracy ?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51);display:inline">.</div><div><br></div><div><br><br></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 8:38 PM, michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Of course these models of governance are aspirations—goals, directions towards which we strive, but which equally have the effect of strongly conditioning our current decisions and directions—which is why this discussion is not theoretical but extremely practical.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Is the direction towards which we strive in the area of global (Internet) governance one that maximizes democracy (rule by and for the people) or one that maximizes multi-stakeholderism (rule by and for the elite who have “stakes”)? Simple question.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Siva went on to suggest that MSism is the next stage beyond democracy an even stronger position – that is that rule by and for the people has now somehow become obsolete in the face of the overwhelming ascendance of certain private corporations, certain elite groups, certain countries and their allies.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Civil Society of course has traditionally (classically) supported democracy and the broadest base of participation in the structures and operations of governance. But in the absence of a denial of these propositions rejecting Democracy presented by Siva and others it would appear that that too has become obsolete.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">M<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:<a href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net" target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 7:52 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; 'Gene Kimmelman'; michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Sivasubramanian M'; <a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" target="_blank">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a>; 'Avri Doria'; <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>; 'IRP'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] RE: [IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0in"><span style="color:black">Why isn't a multi stakeholder process any less broad or inclusive than say a multi lateral government only model, or a Parliamentary model in which a few elected representatives (whom you may not even have voted for), or a bureaucrat employed by the government elected by a country, determines policy that affects you? <u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0in"><span style="color:black">True participatory democracy, going by the letter of that wiki definition, appears to be found in the cantons of Switzerland I guess, or on a smaller scale, in a local club where every member has a voice and a stake on where to hold their annual event, for example. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:10pt;margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">On 24 October 2014 10:33:45 am "michael gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:gray;border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 5pt;margin-left:4.5pt;margin-right:0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">No, I don’t think so, Gene. </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Siva has made a very clear and simple statement here in the context of most of those in CS currently active in the IG space on an issue of quite central importance going forward.</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I would have thought that advocates of the MSist model would be only too delighted to make a public declaration of opposition on this matter, or by their silence indicate consent.</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">M</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> Gene Kimmelman [<a href="mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:genekimmelman@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 7:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Sivasubramanian M; <a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" target="_blank">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a>; Avri Doria; IGC; <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net>" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>; IRP<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [IRPCoalition] [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I'm sorry Michael, but I think silence -- at least on my part -- indicates that many of us just don't have the time to engage right now on the merits of this; I'm just too busy and think this may be something better to discuss in person at some future meeting.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 9:59 AM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Perhaps we can assume here that silence is consent.</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">M</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> michael gurstein [mailto:<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 6:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Sivasubramanian M'<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Avri Doria'; 'Bits <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>'; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; IRP; <a href="mailto:forum@justnetcoalition.org" target="_blank">forum@justnetcoalition.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks for this Sivasubramanian…</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Can I/we take this i.e. that MSism (governance by self-appointed elites) is the “next evolutionary stage of democracy” is a generally agreed upon position among the proponents of MSism?</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">M</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> Sivasubramanian M [<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 24, 2014 6:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Avri Doria; Bits <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Dear Michael Gurstein,</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">The definitions are reconciled when the multistakeholder model is viewed as the next phase of evolution of Democracy, and in this phase, it is in its initial stages of evolution with some aspects being defined.</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Sivasubramanian M</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy" target="_blank">Sivasubramanian M</a><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><a href="tel:%2B1%20%28213%29%20300%208293" target="_blank">+1 (213) 300 8293</a> Oct 11-19 2014<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:57 PM, michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">You can of course a la the Lewis Carroll’s the Queen of Hearts define anything you like as whatever you like but I’m very curious how your reconcile the current practice of MSism with this definition of Participatory Democracy (from Wikipedia</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p><b><span style="color:black">Participatory democracy</span></b><span style="color:black"> is a process emphasizing the broad <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participation_%28decision_making%29" title="Participation (decision making)" target="_blank">participation</a> of constituents in the direction and operation of political systems. Etymological roots of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy" title="Democracy" target="_blank">democracy</a> (Greek <i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demos" title="wikt:demos" target="_blank">demos</a></i> and <i><a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82" title="wikt:κράτος" target="_blank">kratos</a></i>) imply that the people are in power and thus that all democracies are participatory. …<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Participatory democracy strives to create opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making, and seeks to broaden the range of people who have access to such opportunities.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">It seems to me that decision making a la MSism by self-appointed elites (corporates, their governmental allies and whomever else they choose to participate) hardly qualifies as “creat(ing) opportunities for all members of a population to make meaningful contributions to decision-making”.</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">But maybe I’m missing something.</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">M</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> <a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits-request@lists.bestbits.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Avri Doria<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Time-sensitive: 24 hour sign on period for ITU Plenipot joint recommendations</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On 23-Oct-14 08:20, michael gurstein wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><pre><span style="color:black"> If you take a look at my<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">blog both the current post and several of the earlier ones you will see my<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">argument that MSism is being presented as a form of global governance in<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">competition with democratic governance.<u></u><u></u></span></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br><br>I haven't read your blog. But I always define multistakeholderism (m17m) as a form of participatory democracy that builds on the representative democracy that some few nations have put into effect as well as the bottom-up organic coming together of stakeholders, who sometime aggregate into stakeholder groups, on a particular theme. I define it as a form of democracy somewhere between basic representative democracy and full direct democracy.<br><br>I think many other accept some form of the m17m is a form of participatory democracy definition. So the frames of reference are really quite different.<br><br>avri<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net" target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" target="_blank">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="color:black"><br>_______________________________________________<br>IRP mailing list<br><a href="mailto:IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org" target="_blank">IRP@lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/mailman/listinfo/irp" target="_blank">https://lists.internetrightsandprinciples.org/mailman/listinfo/irp</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>