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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 01 October 2014 02:20 AM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:4.8pt">Now, why, when
the UN can adopt a Model law of e-commerce, can we not
discuss and possibly adopt a Model Law on IP based
telecommunication and net neutrality. Can anyone answer
this simple and obvious question for me? Please, I am
serious. <span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">No
one can answer this question because it is based on a false
premise. But you provided your own answer anyway:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">>Because US tell us so. And so many of
us are happy to take our
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> cues from the US, and its political
and corporate allies. (Has it
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> anything to do with from where the
money flows?)<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It
is based on a false premise because:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here
in the US of A, we are talking about nothing else but a new
law and/or regulation on net neutrality, it got 5 million
public comments. And the same federal regulatory agency,
known as the FCC, has been running a proceeding on the
telephony-to-IP transition since January
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-14-5A1.pdf"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-14-5A1.pdf</span></a></p>
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<br>
Milton, <br>
<br>
Throughout this email, you seamlessly move between UN based
international law making and US law making, which may get forced on
the world bec of the US's economic and technical might, as if there
isnt any real substantive difference between the two... I would have
been very surprised by this if I did not know that you know exactly
what you are doing - which makes it simply very disappointing.
Please, US cannot be doing global governance, and to the extent it
does it has to be simply lamented and resisted. This is true of any
country (in fact, any actor) who exercises such the greatest and the
most concentrated illegitimate power, and it just happens to be the
US at the present with regard to the 'global Internet'. (If you
contest this fact, I am ready to discuss it.)<br>
<br>
In the circumstance, when I ask for global model laws in these other
areas on the lines of the 1997 UN model law on e-com, your pointing
to some law making exercises happening in the US bespeaks an US
centric arrogance which is what I consider as very disappointing. I
know you are a careful person, and you are doing this because,
unfortunately, these global IG civil society forums allow you space
to speak things which one cannot speak at almost any other civil
society space, I mean, in any other area of CS work. In fact even
with such views you are nominated to speak on the behalf of civil
society at the IGF... Therefore, ones regrets are larger than just
about what you say. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
dialogue you say doesn’t exist is transnational. I was under
the impression that there were half a dozen workshops on net
neutrality at this year’s IGF. I believe that the topic was
debated extensively, if inconclusively, at Netmundial. The
European Commission has also been discussing and acting on
it.
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
When did I say there is no global discussion on net neutrality ? ...
As for the resistance to it and the resources thrown in for that
sake I have historical details of how an NN debate and position
forming got resisted on the IGC list as well in the MAG, for years,
before it was finally taken up this year, and then what went into
how the debate got shaped for the main session of the IGF and so
on... <br>
<br>
Yes, I know the European Commission as well as Council of Europe has
been working on it, and I have participated especially in the
latter's effort. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
word “net neutrality” is an American term</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Oh, I keep forgetting that. We all must remain eternally grateful
for such mercies. What would we be without the US.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">and
the current Presidential administration is on record as
supporting it. You probably learned the words “IP
transition” from America, too.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well, yes. How much ever may I like to, we are just not able to come
off the colonial and post colonial yoke. Dont we still take
everything of worth from the west? Perhaps you would next note that
we are actually conversing in English that UK gave to the world.. <br>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
So explain to me again how the evil empire is preventing
everyone from talking about such laws or regulations??</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Apart from US and its corporate allies being the chief instigators
for filtering the debates at the IGF, that is not what I am talking
about when I mention actual norms and larger policy making, even if
just as model laws. You will agree that this cannot happen at the
IGF, right. And of course US is the main party opposed to the UN
taking up any norms or policy development work with regard to
Internet related policies. Do you contest this statement. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
I am serious, or at least as serious as one can be when
dealing with outlandish accusations.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is
the basis of your political appeal now a shopworn
anti-Americanism, rather than a policy agenda that actually
makes things better?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The US rules the global Internet, politically and economically . Any
civil society actor whose chief aim is a better distribution of
power (that at least is what civil society used to be) would
naturally make the US as its chief target. But obvious. It is those
who continually support the US's political and economic power on the
Internet who must explain themselves. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Keep
in mind that “model laws” developed by the UN are
significant only insofar as they are adopted by national
governments.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes . <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Which
means, they have limited relevance when it comes to global
Internet governance issues. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, indeed global governance needs more than model laws. That is
just one part of what UN can do - I mean develop model laws as it
did for e-com, but global Internet policies have to also be made by
democratic global gov bodies. Meanwhile, there does exist a
connection between the two. Harmonized national laws go a long way
in effective global governance of the Internet. If you see the
proposed function of the CIRP proposed by India in 2011, one of the
key functions indeed is to harmonise national laws in this area, to
the extent possible. If you have not heard of what harmonising
national laws mean, just ask your government about trade and IP
areas and what its consistent global efforts are in this regard. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As
a thought experiment, ask yourself which has had more
influence and importance to the future of the Internet: the
UNCITRAL model e commerce law?
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.uncitral.org/uncitral/en/uncitral_texts/electronic_commerce/1996Model.html"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">http://www.uncitral.org/uncitral/en/uncitral_texts/electronic_commerce/1996Model.html</span></a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The India's IT Act, which is the default Internet law in India at
present, mentions the UNCITRAL model e-com in its preamble, and
presumably takes a lot from it. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Or
the Clinton administration’s Framework for Global Electronic
Commerce, which provided the rationale for ICANN?
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/Commerce/"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/Commerce/</span></a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, this one certainly had a much greater impact on the global
Internet. But this is an illegitimate impact. I dont know why cant
you distinguish between legitimate political/ legal / policy impact
and illegitimate ones. You seem to be proposing that the power
behind a law/ policy is the main consideration, and not its
legitimacy. To take the colonial example again, the world still is
suffering the years of bad work that colonial masters did, including
having drawn arbitrary geo political boundaries (west asia being one
key example). The still current and powerful impact of those acts do
not make them legitimate in the first place, same for the Clinton
Administration's Framework for Global Electronic Commerce. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
the latter proved more influential, is it because the evil
empire stopped everyone from talking about the topic and
used Jedi mind tricks to force it down our throats? Or was
it because a globalized approach proved to be more practical
and suitable to the growth of the internet than a
fragmented, nation-based approach?
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, a political philosophy and policy framework was simply forced
down everyone's throat along with a technology that was indeed very
alluring and useful. That is exactly what happened, as I did say in
a recent email to Barry on the IGC list. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
the neoliberal telecom competition and deregulation policies
won out in the 1980s and 1990s, was it because of US power,
or was it because the policies were fantastically successful
at stimulating the growth and penetration of the Internet
and information and telecom services and equipment, more so
than the 70 years of national monopoly that preceded it, and
thus were imitated by country after country?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
They were successful because the state owned telco infrastructure
model was outdated. It was rightly replaced. But this is not the
only lesson from history we have. We know the role of regulations in
making telephony mainstream in the US, and then is triggering the
software revolution... I am sure you need not be re taught that bit
of history. In the same manner we know the positive role of global
policy frameworks and regulation in many areas. Therefore, there
have to be free market forces, and there have to be regulations. The
problem is that the US, and you, seem to only want the former and
not the latter. Unbounded markets without regulation (other than US
enforced one over the whole world). That is a recipe for disaster.
<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:b3d1154ec4094871a651da67b8305203@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">These
might be more “serious” and productive questions for people
on this list to answer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Milton
L Mueller<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Laura
J. and L. Douglas Meredith Professor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Syracuse
University School of Information Studies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://faculty.ischool.syr.edu/mueller/"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0563C1">http://faculty.ischool.syr.edu/mueller/</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Internet
Governance Project<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://internetgovernance.org/"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0563C1">http://internetgovernance.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
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