<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Thanks Daniel, for your point about Democracy. We all agree that Democracy is a fragile world that can easily be twisted or lost. It is rather difficult to admit that such a failure or loss can be the result of the wrong acting by a dominating player, presumably not a rogue state.<div><br></div><div>Applied to mass surveillance, it seems indeed a good idea to put Democracy in practice: a well-balanced (and checked) democratic system allows separation of powers (1), and counter-power (2) within its own governing system. I am glad to act as a responsible citizen, as you suggest, and bring my voice to the protesting ones, but that still sounds a bit naive without the two previous settings. So it seems to me that the surveillance planet is not a flat one where all countries show the same surveillance power and desire. So maybe we should not close our eyes so to pass on from on secret to another, concluding that all secret services are equal. I don't think secret services are supposed to spy simply every citizen on this planet. That was the Stasi dream, or the Stalinist bureaucratic terror. In Democracy, where trust and willingness to act together are fundamental assets, this is a great loss of taxpayer money. So, please allow me to disagree: the US have to prove better, and not worse. See their whistleblower new legal vision: a whistleblower should be allowed to speak to its boss! This is presented as a progress, when it is just the opposite.</div><div><br></div><div>As Internet governance cannot be contained within the boundaries of one single country, neither be managed by one single country, how do we deal with a democratic approach taking into account the two previous points (1) and (2)?</div><div><br></div><div>Publicity is a good starting point at citizen level. But CS might push a little further its thinking and influence to offer governance innovation to politicians if they have some trouble to understand what citizens are concerned about, and not just lobbyists or PR consultants are telling them over a nice gastronomic table.</div><div><br></div><div>Another good point for a good start would be to call a cat a cat: I know only one country, moreover a self-proclaimed champion of freedom of speech that has the technical power to organize and handle mass surveillance, thanks to its dominant private sector champions. So even though we can agree on the idea not to play the antagonistic game, we still have to agree on definitions and meanings, we still need to have acceptance for diversity of views and opinions. We also have to accept to speak truth to power: there was no power grab attempt from ITU in December 2012, neither before, nor after. And there is still not. The current asymmetry cannot be but condemned. And we need more US voices to honestly admit that things have to change. </div><div><br></div><div>All of that means democracy. To cherish it means to use it.</div><div><br></div><div>JC<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Optima; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><br></span>
</span></span></span></span></div>
<br><div><div>Le 4 août 2014 à 17:04, Daniel Kalchev a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04.08.14 12:18, Jean-Christophe
NOTHIAS I The Global Journal wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:4D8B9C3E-9136-4DE7-A295-57C742166B11@theglobaljournal.net" type="cite">
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Optima; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent:
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text-align: -webkit-auto;
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separate; font-style:
normal; font-variant:
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line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align:
-webkit-auto; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows:
2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing:
0px;
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none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; font-style:
normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: -webkit-auto;
text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing:
0px;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
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0px;
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none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; ">Nota Bene:
Wolfgang, I hope you
noticed that I did not
mention the troubling fact
that the US surveillance
of all Internet users
browsing and emailing over
the beautiful unified,
un-fragmented Internet
under one single root-zone
management, and of all
phone users, including
president Rousseff,
Chancellor Merkel,
European diplomats, BRICS
diplomats, all diplomats,
politicians, citizens,
that were hostage of the
US surveillance paranoia
and infernalia. We all pay
for that.<br>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, we do all pay for that.<br>
<br>
But then, what can we do to resolve this situation? The US secret
services agencies will continue to do all of this, no matter what.
This is why they exist. Most of them run on military style
management, and obeying orders is mandatory there. The same can be
said about the secret services of any other country. Or any special
interests group.<br>
<br>
My experience dealing with this kind of 'operations' is that your
working route is publicity. Talk about it. Don't let them do it in
secret. Cops hate being exposed. Let Internet users become aware
what is going on. Don't waste your time politicizing it, in the
sense of "those bad XYZ spying on us good ABC", because this is
nonsense (and not true in general). If Internet users don't mind
being subject of surveillance, who are we to force them?<br>
<br>
If Internet users are so upset about this situation, they as
individuals having (whatever - voting, buying, etc) power will act
up and fix it.<br>
<br>
Isn't this how democracy should function? :-)<br>
<br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4D8B9C3E-9136-4DE7-A295-57C742166B11@theglobaljournal.net" type="cite">
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div>So yes let's the CS write to USG and its digital champions.
Let's start to balance our role.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That is something everyone has obviously in mind when
considering the fact that governments are no longer to be seen
out of the IG game. One good reason to have CS coming strong
into the democratic multistakeholder model, JNC and others are
advocating.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>JC</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>Le 4 août 2014 à 10:46, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang a écrit :</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.outlookindia.com/news/article/UN-Adopts-Resolution-on-Bridging-Digital-Divide/852511">http://www.outlookindia.com/news/article/UN-Adopts-Resolution-on-Bridging-Digital-Divide/852511</a><br>
<br>
Outlook India:<br>
The resolution decided that the overall review will be
concluded in December 2015 by a two-day General Assembly
high-level meeting to be preceded by an inter-governmental
preparatory process that also takes into account inputs from
all relevant stakeholders of WSIS. The intergovernmental
negotiation process would begin in June 2015 and lead to an
inter-governmentally agreed outcome document for adoption at
the UNGA meeting. The process retains the ownership of the
preparatory meetings and the final outcome document with
member states alone. Mukerji said the resolution ensures
that leaders, "at the highest possible level" will meet at
the high-level plenary meeting in December next year to
adopt the outcome of the intergovernmental negotiations.<br>
<br>
Wolfgang:<br>
One of the big achievements in the WSIS process was that
civil society got a voice in the process. A Milestone was
the CS WSIS Declaratzion from December 2003 which was handed
over to the president of the first summit, WSIS 1. It became
an official document. The Tunis Agenda confirmed and
enhanced the role of civil society. As you can see from the
text above, ten years later this process is back in the
hands of "governments only". The final outcome document will
be with member states only by taking into account inputs
from all relevant stakeholders (which sounds like a joke
with the experiences of a enhanced communicartion and
cooperation over the last ten years, including the UNCSTD
WGs. Should civil society write a letter to UN Secretary
General Ban Kin Moon?<br>
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