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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Interesting Deirdre.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The Oxford Dictionary gives the word both meanings,
with the one you mention tied specifically to gambling instances.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>But more broadly, it also defines stakeholder as
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>“A person with an interest or concern in
something”</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>which I think works well for our context.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>Interestingly, the Oxford or any other dictionary does not yet
define multistakeholder. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=2>Definitions seem to vary. <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 22px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
color=#252525><FONT face="">According to Lawrence E. Strickling, U.S. Assistant
Secretary for Communications and Information, and<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><A
title="National telecommunications and information administration"
class=mw-redirect
style="TEXT-DECORATION: ; FONT-FAMILY: ; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: none; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat; BACKGROUND-ATTACHMENT: scroll; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-POSITION: 0% 0%; COLOR: ; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 22px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_telecommunications_and_information_administration"><FONT
color=#0b0080><FONT style="TEXT-DECORATION: none" size=2
face="">NTIA</FONT></FONT></A><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 22px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
face=""><FONT color=#252525><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Administrator, "the multistakeholder
process, ... involves the full involvement of all stakeholders, consensus-based
decision-making and operating in an open, transparent and accountable manner”.
So that seems to be what one product champion (US Government) seems to think it
is.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
color=#252525 size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 22px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
color=#252525 size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 22px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">I
think there is plenty of room for improvement and clarification
there.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>Ian </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; COLOR: ; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: 25px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=williams.deirdre@gmail.com
href="mailto:williams.deirdre@gmail.com">Deirdre Williams</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 29, 2014 1:19 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=governance@lists.igcaucus.org
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">Internet Governance</A> ; <A
title=ian.peter@ianpeter.com href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">Ian Peter</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: CS consensual statement on MSism WAS Re: [governance]
Vint Verf tells us the conclusion of the complex IANA transition
process</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear All,
<DIV>Responding to Ian's reminder, and to the discussion generally - what is a
stake? who holds one? how/why do they hold it?</DIV>
<DIV>Somewhere about 2004 (possibly earlier) it looks as if stakeholder and
shareholder became confused (my conjecture, possibly through a shareholder being
described as having a stake in a company?) Prior to that, stakeholder seems to
have been seen "officially" as the neutral third party without a personal
interest who holds the stakes or wagers until the matter of the bet is resolved.
The term now seems to have flipped completely to mean someone with an interest
of some type in the issue at hand. Perhaps the contradictory flip from "without
personal interest" to "with personal interest" helps explain some of the
difficulties with the term?</DIV>
<DIV>So is a stake an interest?</DIV>
<DIV>Is the holder a person or a group of people?</DIV>
<DIV>I was discussing the second question last month with someone from this
region (LAC) and he suggested the following answer -</DIV>
<DIV>"<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Also
from a practical standpoint, a group viewpoint would tend to carry more weight
than an individual one so it would behove like-minded individuals to organise
themselves in representing their views (e.g. individuals into civil society
groups or even groups into lobbies). In addition, I also have the sense of
multistakeholder as implying a group of stakeholders of equal status. To
my mind, this would work best if the substantive stakeholders are either groups
or individuals, but not both together."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif"><FONT color=#000000>This is
my response to that issue:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">"There is an
inherent inequality about this which is always overlooked. Corporations and
organisations already have an existence. They are held together by existing
structures. However the end users are an amorphous lot (as well as being the
clear majority, all 3 billion of them) To require them to organise themselves so
that they have the right to speak puts them at an extreme disadvantage,
particularly considering the diversity of their opinions. An "innovative" thing
about the Internet ... is that essentially it functions at the level of the
individual. Perhaps we need to learn to use it at the level of the individual
too. It's amazing how much prominence, within organisations, is given to
physical meetings. The recent ICANN meeting in London was attended by about 3000
people: the constituency of the internet end user is 3 billion, a billion times
bigger."</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">If we can
reach some sort of agreement on who or what a stakeholder is, then I think it
will become easier to find consensus on multistakeholder process, or
multistakeholderism.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Sorry for the
long message</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Deirdre</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 27 July 2014 16:22, Ian Peter <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"
target=_blank>ian.peter@ianpeter.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">
<DIV>Trying to go back to the original discussion -</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I hear all the reasons why we can’t avoid discussing equal footing. But
the beginning here was the idea of a consensual statement on
multistakeholderism – I think we should work on that, with as good a reference
to equal footing as we can agree on at this stage, rather than divert to
trying to develop a common position on what equal footing means.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Because I think we can get somewhere on a multistakeholderism statement.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ian</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=kichango@gmail.com href="mailto:kichango@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Mawaki Chango</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 28, 2014 4:58 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=governance@lists.igcaucus.org
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target=_blank>Internet
Governance</A> ; <A title=dogwallah@gmail.com
href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com" target=_blank>McTim</A> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: CS consensual statement on MSism WAS Re: [governance]
Vint Verf tells us the conclusion of the complex IANA transition
process</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; BORDER-SPACING: 0px"><SPAN
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; BORDER-SPACING: 0px"><SPAN
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; BORDER-SPACING: 0px"><SPAN
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">
<DIV>McTim,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You keep making this point that all the woes of MSism come from, and only
from, the ITU/WSIS breed.</DIV>
<DIV>First of all, I'd contend that the constituency-based approach at ICANN
was and still is an instance of MSism. Don't take my word for it; as soon as
the WSIS process made the term 'multistakeholder' fashionable, we've heard it
a lot reclaimed in ICANN's ranks. So much so that they have now re-devised
their old constituency groupings into stakeholder groupings. However, as far
as I know, ICANN only dealt with its direct stakeholders as organization, that
is, the domain name industry, the technical community (security and stability
aspects of the net), and the business, particularly via the lenses of IPR
issues. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes, I'm aware of the very early failed attempt at direct voting by end
users for their reps on the board of directors, but after that it took many
years for the Noncommercial user constituency to be recognized (only as part
of the GNSO community) and for ICANN itself to get the ALAC structures going.
(Please feel free to correct me or complete if I'm missing any major aspect of
things here; I'm just summarizing on the flight.) At the end of the day,
constituencies and stakeholders at ICANN have also had to be divided into
separate groupings with an identity label -- and so it was before WSIS
started.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Was that then a perfect instance of MSism which ITU-WSIS came to spoil? I
just once to have this clarified once for all as to what you exactly mean
everything you point to ITU as having put the worm in the fruit (or whatever
colloquialism I'm missing to remember correctly here) by delineating
stakeholder groups as it did during the WSIS process. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Beyond that, I'd also appreciate if you can give references or pointers
to any clear formulations (e.g, RFC or excerpt of charter, of rules and
operating procedures of relevant groups, or other informal text that may have
served for guidance in implementing MSism, etc.) of instances of MSism you
deem successful or which should be taken as reference (such as any version of
"<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">MSism that built
and developed the </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Internet for the last
3+ decades.") My apologies if that has been done before, as I suspect it could
have.</SPAN></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Thanks and
cheers,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Mawaki</SPAN></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 4:15 PM, McTim <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:dogwallah@gmail.com"
target=_blank>dogwallah@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">All,<BR>
<DIV><BR><BR>On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Norbert Bollow <<A
href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" target=_blank>nb@bollow.ch</A>> wrote:<BR>>
On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 07:44:26 -0700<BR>> "michael gurstein" <<A
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target=_blank>gurstein@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> In other words "equal footing for foxes and
hens", sounds pretty good<BR>>> in theory, in practice not so good
(for the hens... exceptionally<BR>>> good for the
foxes...<BR>><BR>> Equal footing means that the hens must not use
their wings to try to<BR>> escape?<BR>><BR>> SCNR (=Sorry, could
not resist.)<BR>><BR>> On a more serious note, how should the
following be classified?<BR>><BR>> During the drafting process for the
Paris WSIS+10 outcome document, the<BR>> UNESCO guy running the process
essentially simply turned deaf ears to<BR>> the proposal to include a
reference to the civil society WSIS<BR>> declaration alongside the
governmental one.<BR><BR><BR></DIV>We have to keep in mind that the "MS" IG
processes which emanate from<BR>Geneva are not the same sort of MSism that
built and developed the<BR>Internet for the last 3+ decades. Those are
the models we should be<BR>using, NOT the ones that come from
Geneva.<BR><SPAN><FONT
color=#888888><BR><BR><BR><BR>--<BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>McTim<BR>"A name
indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A<BR>route
indicates how we get there." Jon
Postel<BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><BR>____________________________________________________________<BR>You
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