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An <a
href="http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/21/geithner-book-reveals-consensus-not-vision-during-financial-crisis/">article
in today's New York Times</a> reviewing a book by former Treasury
Secretary Tim Geithner is headlined "Geithner Depicts Consensus in
Crisis, Not Vision." Focusing on consensus one paragraph states a
key failure of the Obama Administration:<br>
<blockquote>"It’s an elevation of consensus, rather than what’s
right, as a mode of governance. And there are moments that call
for vision and ambition."<br>
</blockquote>
I read the review as saying that consensus, at best, is Milquetoast.
<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Tom Lowenhaupt<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/21/2014 5:19 AM, Mawaki Chango
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACTo+v-1QGJ9-hB01T2wpCUbJyVe9oWJMAisVPbaBiVq1W8f4w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Peut-etre qu'il nous faudra passer par les
etats-generaux de la societe civile globale/mondiale sur la
gouvernance de l'internet???
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ian, the thing is I find it hard to reply yes or no to your
question. Yes, it may be better at least on some issues for
governments to replace what you call "UN consensus" by rough
consensus (among themselves) for their decision-making. But
how to get to a place where we could apply rough consensus
among multiple stakeholders including governments at global
level and on "equal footing"? That's the challenge and that
will require more work, including maybe some level of
constitution (literally and "politically") for a global CS
voice in the processes at hand.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note that the above will require that within global CS
itself, all members (whether individuals or entities) are
recognized on equal footing.</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mawaki</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<br clear="all">
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<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(80,0,80)">
-------</div>
Mawaki Chango, PhD</span></span></span></div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:01 AM,
Suresh Ramasubramanian <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:suresh@hserus.net"
target="_blank">suresh@hserus.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<p>Fully agree with your problem statement. Now how
can this be fixed? </p>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<p style="margin:10pt 0;color:black">On 21 May
2014 12:14:28 pm
"michael gurstein" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 0.75ex;border-left:1px
solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">This
is
correct I think and a strategically
important observation. However, in
order to be able to make effective use
of these possible strategic
alliances/convergences CS has to be
clear what it’s stake/overall strategic
position is so that it can take tactical
advantage where
possible.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">For
that
to be effective/useful at all (from a CS
rather than an
individualistic perspective) CS has to
be clear in what its
linkages/alliances/representivity are
(either from an organizational or
from a normative perspective). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">This
is
why CS has been very effective in
promoting Human Rights in the IG
context but quite ineffective in other
areas (in HR there was a clear basis
for establishing a normative
representivity…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
is
also why to my mind MSism (rather than
MSism within a democratic
framework) is so risky. In the absence
of those linkages back from CS
either to significant organizational or
normative anchors then the role of
CS in MS processes is simply (CS)
individuals acting more or less on their
own behalf. They are thus subject to
all the pressures, temptations etc.
that such a situation might present and
unequally faced with organized
representations from other
“stakeholders” . The inevitable outcome
from
this is that any negotiating environment
is clearly fraught with potential
dysfunction and thus the likelihood of
equitable overall outcomes is
significantly at risk.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Suresh
Ramasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 21, 2014
6:51
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
Jean-Louis
FULLSACK<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mawaki Chango; Ian Peter<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[governance] Consensus or rough
consensus?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What stake
does CS bring to the table - or rather,
what stake do individual CS
representatives bring to the table?
Are they there solely to demand
a stake? To put forth a purely
political point of view? Or are they
there to genuinely represent the
interests of the constituency they
serve?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The
answer will be that it depends. The
companies you name and others do
spend a lot on hiring public policy
people to represent what they see as
their own interests. Quite often though
not always these interests
may be congruent with civil society -
which is what helps in establishing a
consensus.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
--srs
(iPad)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 21-May-2014, at 11:07, Jean-Louis
FULLSACK <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jlfullsack@orange.fr"
target="_blank">jlfullsack@orange.fr</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p>Dear
all</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ian Wrote
:</p>
<p>< the devil will be in how MSr*
are defined,
structured and organized as well as
how their voice factors in the process
and outcome.></p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'd rather add
"who much they weigh in the
information society" i.e. how
important is their lobbying influence
and power on policy making. In more
concrete terms at which grade of
representativeness will CS be able for
challenging effectively ("equal
footing") the the private sector,
i.e. the "Internet Majors" Google, FB,
Yahoo, M$, Amazon and Cos
?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The answer is in the question
...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Greetings</p>
<p> </p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Jean-Louis
Fullsack<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
red 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">> Message du
21/05/14 01:59<br>
> De : "Mawaki
Chango" <br>
> A : "Internet Governance" ,
"Ian
Peter" <br>
> Copie à : <br>
> Objet : Re: [governance]
Consensus
or rough consensus?<br>
> <br>
> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Interesting
perspective, Ian. My first thought
is that like
anything else regarding MSm* the
devil will be in how MSr* are
defined,
structured and organized as well
as how their voice factors in the
process
and outcome. That is the Achilles'
heel of any MSr process lies, IMO.
The
question is, can we ever come up
with basic principles that will be
broadly
accepted as foundation for the
legitimacy of MSm in some type of
settings/contexts. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sorry
if I don't directly reply to
your question.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mawaki
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">MSm =
multistakeholderism</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">MSr =
multistakeholder</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br
clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#500050">=================</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mawaki
Chango, PhD</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Founder
and Owner</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">DIGILEXIS</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
> <br>
> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:35 PM,
Ian Peter <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"
target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">I’m interested to know people’s
thoughts about the
advisability of civil
society promoting the
“rough
consensus” model of
decision making as
differing from what I
will call “UN
consensus”.</span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">“UN consensus” is what we see
happening in most UN
decision making
processes, some
related international
organisations, and
also saw at
NetMundial. This
consensus model allows
any
one party to stand
against adoption of
any particular
wording, even if the
vast majority of
parties present think
otherwise. This leads
to some less
acceptable outcomes.</span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">I think it is reasonable to say
that
“UN consensus” has
been stifling in many
instances and has
inhibited
progress in many
areas. </span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Rough consensus could lead to
different outcomes.
For instance, in the
NetMundial situation,
it would
have led to the
stronger statements on
surveillance,
intermediate liability
and net neutrality
being maintained in
the text, rather than
being removed
at the last moment due
to the demands of a
small number of
government and
business interests. </span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">In other words, in this example at
least, the mood of the
meeting and the
desires of the vast
majority of
participants would
have been better
reflected with a rough
consensus
decision making
mechanism than with UN
style consensus.</span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">However, there is a danger here –
minorities are not
necessarily protected
in rough consensus and
more
widespread adoption of
a rough consensus
decision making model
could lead
to suppression of some
viewpoints. However,
in a stakeholder model
such as
NetMundial needing
rough consensus in all
stakeholder groups
would offer
significant
protection.</span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> So I am interested in any
thoughts on the best
model for us to
promote here.</span><span
style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:13.0pt"><span
style="color:black">Ian
Peter</span></p>
</div>
</div>
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