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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 15 April 2014 07:07 PM,
Mawaki Chango wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACTo+v-apSCgL_S5dYn6HFrRJFxWSTGackLyqH3yDWdEPOifFg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra">SNIP</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACTo+v-apSCgL_S5dYn6HFrRJFxWSTGackLyqH3yDWdEPOifFg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">. So democracy as a concept cannot be
frozen into the practice of voting as we know it today (one
person, one vote) in the sole context of nation-sates.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
It may not be frozen into the practice of voting-- there is a huge
amount of literature and practice of participatory democracy that
says exactly that.. But, can we freeze in not having a vote for
corporates - in fact multiple and exclusive votes, where ordinary
people do not have votes... That is MS decision making... <br>
<br>
Why do we need to go beyond participatory democracy as the means of
fulfilling the ideal of democracy and rather jump to MSism which is
simply not democratic in a thousand way.....<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACTo+v-apSCgL_S5dYn6HFrRJFxWSTGackLyqH3yDWdEPOifFg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"> It an idea that is still with us and
still fully has its relevance while we are experimenting with
emergent collective decision-making ideas and practices such
as MSism.
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In that sense, as a decision-making process MSism can
prove to be more, or less, democratic, in the sense of
getting the consent of the governed (through the inclusion
of their concerns) to the matters of governing. If it
survives its infancy and grows robust, the specific value
MSism may be said to bring is the ability to make
collective decisions, particularly policy decisions, at
supra- and transnational level where governments are not
the only participants or direct actors (I locate the
primary value at that level because so far it seems in
supra-national spaces, policy decisions have been made
directly by government reps voting while in sub-national
spaces a full and well-implemented operationalization of
democratic principles may lead to outcomes that are as
good and legitimate as MSism applied in those spaces.) </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As a collective decision-making mechanisms chosen from
various models to fit a particular governance space, each
instance of MSism will be shaped and will perform based on
the actors/stakeholders involved and the resources and
tools available in that space. As a result, with
multi-stakeholderism the devil will ALWAYS be in the
detail (not to say MSism is the only thing for which this
applies, so please don't start another useless discussion
on this particular point, thanks.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>P.S. Sorry, maybe I should have posted this in the
MSism thread... I didn't mean to be that elaborate when I
begun to reply. But, hey, that's what it is.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mawaki </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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<div>—Mike</div>
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<div><br>
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<div>-- </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:'Times
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Senior Legal Advisor, Global Internet Policy
Project</span><span
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medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in
0in;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223)"><span
style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> michael
gurstein <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>
Tuesday, April 15, 2014 at 6:50 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Mike
Godwin <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@internews.org"
target="_blank">mgodwin@internews.org</a>>,
'Internet Governance Caucus List' <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org"
target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
'bestbits' <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net"
target="_blank">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>
RE: [bestbits] FW: US Is an Oligarchy Not a
Democracy, says Scientific Study<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Mike,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Do
I take you as saying below that you
would trade (even the opportunity) of
influence via democratic participation
for the many; in return for the (in my
opinion) illusion of not being
“excluded” for the few via
multistakeholderism?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">M</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Mike Godwin (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG"
target="_blank">mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>)
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG"
target="_blank">mailto:mgodwin@INTERNEWS.ORG</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 14, 2014
2:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> michael gurstein; 1Net
List; Internet Governance Caucus
List; bestbits<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [bestbits] FW:
US Is an Oligarchy Not a Democracy,
says Scientific Study</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Convergence is not causality. Lots of
interested stakeholders may legitimately
prefer multistakeholder models from ones
on which they are baseline excluded.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
Sent from my iPhone using <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://taps.io/mailplus"
target="_blank">Mail+ for Outlook</a>
</p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"> michael
gurstein<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 4/14/14, 4:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 1Net List, Internet
Governance Caucus List, bestbits<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [bestbits] FW: US
Is an Oligarchy Not a Democracy,
says Scientific Study</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
guess the below explains the
overwhelming pressure from the USG
to have multistakeholderism
implemented for global (Internet)
governance since MSism would be the
political form through which
oligarchies would exert (and mask)
their power in global decision
making processes.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Of
course it also suggests why
significant elements of CS in
Internet Governance processes would
also support MSism since they are in
many cases the direct beneficiaries
of these oligarchies.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">M
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sid-l@googlegroups.com"
target="_blank">sid-l@googlegroups.com</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sid-l@googlegroups.com"
target="_blank">mailto:sid-l@googlegroups.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sid Shniad<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 14, 2014
11:20 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> undisclosed-recipients:<br>
<b>Subject:</b> US Is an Oligarchy
Not a Democracy, says Scientific
Study</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/04/14"
target="_blank">http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/04/14</a><br>
<br>
Common Dreams April 14, 2014 </b></p>
<div>
<h2>US Is an Oligarchy Not a
Democracy, says Scientific Study</h2>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>“The
preferences of the average
American appear to have only a
minuscule, near-zero,
statistically
non-significant impact upon
public policy.” <br>
<br>
by Eric Zuesse</b> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p>In America, money talks... and
democracy dies under its
crushing weight. (Photo:
Shutterstock)A <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Emgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,135);text-decoration:none">study</span></a>,
to appear in the Fall 2014 issue
of the academic journal <i>Perspectives
on Politics</i>, finds that
the U.S. is no democracy, but
instead an oligarchy, meaning
profoundly corrupt, so that the
answer to the study’s opening
question, "Who governs? Who
really rules?" in this country,
is: </p>
<p>"Despite the seemingly strong
empirical support in previous
studies for theories of
majoritarian democracy, our
analyses suggest that majorities
of the American public actually
have little influence over the
policies our government adopts.
Americans do enjoy many features
central to democratic
governance, such as regular
elections, freedom of speech and
association, and a widespread
(if still contested) franchise.
But, ..." and then they go on to
say, it's not true, and that,
"America's claims to being a
democratic society are seriously
threatened" by the findings in
this, the first-ever
comprehensive scientific study
of the subject, which shows that
there is instead "the nearly
total failure of 'median voter'
and other Majoritarian Electoral
Democracy theories [of America].
When the preferences of economic
elites and the stands
of organized interest groups are
controlled for, the preferences
of the average American appear
to have only a minuscule,
near-zero, statistically
non-significant impact upon
public policy."</p>
<p>To put it short: The United
States is no democracy, but
actually an oligarchy.</p>
<p>The authors of this
historically important study are
Martin Gilens and Benjamin I.
Page, and their article is
titled <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Emgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:rgb(2,29,149);text-decoration:none">"Testing
Theories of American
Politics."</span></a> The
authors clarify that the data
available are probably
under-representing the actual
extent of control of the U.S. by
the super-rich:</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p>Economic Elite Domination
theories do rather well in our
analysis, even though our
findings probably understate
the political influence of
elites. Our measure of the
preferences of wealthy or
elite Americans – though
useful, and the best we could
generate for a large set of
policy cases – is probably
less consistent with the
relevant preferences than are
our measures of the views of
ordinary citizens or the
alignments of engaged interest
groups. Yet we found
substantial estimated effects
even when using this imperfect
measure. The real-world impact
of elites upon public policy
may be still greater.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Nonetheless, this is the
first-ever scientific study of
the question of whether the U.S.
is a democracy. "Until recently
it has not been possible to test
these contrasting theoretical
predictions [that U.S.
policymaking operates as a
democracy, versus as an
oligarchy, versus as some
mixture of the two] against each
other within a single
statistical model. This paper
reports on an effort to do so,
using a unique data set that
includes measures of the key
variables for 1,779 policy
issues." That’s an enormous
number of policy-issues studied.</p>
<p>What the authors are able to
find, despite the deficiencies
of the data, is important: the
first-ever scientific analysis
of whether the U.S. is a
democracy, or is instead an
oligarchy, or some combination
of the two. The clear finding is
that the U.S. is an oligarchy,
no democratic country, at all.
American democracy is a sham, no
matter how much it's pumped by
the oligarchs who run the
country (and who control the
nation's "news" media). The
U.S., in other words, is
basically similar to Russia or
most other dubious "electoral"
"democratic" countries. We
weren't formerly, but we clearly
are now. Today, after this
exhaustive analysis of the data,
“the preferences of the average
American appear to have only a
minuscule, near-zero,
statistically
non-significant impact upon
public policy.” That's it, in a
nutshell.</p>
<div style="border-style:none none
solid;border-bottom-color:rgb(231,231,231);border-bottom-width:1pt;padding:0in;margin-bottom:15pt">
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-color:rgb(231,231,231);border-top-width:1pt;padding:11pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Investigative
historian Eric Zuesse is
the author, most recently,
of <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.amazon.com/Theyre-Not-Even-Close-Democratic/dp/1880026090/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1339027537&sr=8-9"
target="_blank"><i>They're
Not Even Close: The
Democratic vs.
Republican Economic
Records, 1910-2010</i></a><i><span
style="border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0in">,</span></i>and of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Q1H4EG"
target="_blank"><i>CHRIST'S
VENTRILOQUISTS: The
Event that Created
Christianity.</i></a>
</p>
</div>
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