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<font face="Verdana">Lee<br>
<br>
We may be in a hurry to pack off all canons of democratic
politics, and of public institutions, but I dont think one has to
be so surprised about, and pooh pooh, propositions that any
organisation that becomes substantially involved with public
governance must be insulated from private funding. Or would you
suggest that you find it fine if you come to know that private
companies are financing US Congressional committees and so on?
More inline...<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 23 March 2014 05:50 AM, Lee W
McKnight wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ok Michael,
I will take the bait; I see no problem from a global Internet governance view.
It is normal/acceptable practice for technical standards bodies to - meet.</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Someone/some firms helping cover those costs is also - 100% normal.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, not normal. especially if a particular standards body (1) makes
decisions that are very crucial to public interest, and (2) have no
'public' oversight mechanism which itself could be ensured to be
fully independent of private funding..... And IETF qualifies by both
criteria. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
One might surmise a firm agreeing to contribute to the costs - has an interest in the topics under discussion - or at least a couple of them.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, almost always.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
And this is news? Somehow controversial?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Extremely controversial - to finance in such manner a public forum
taking decisions which implicates the financing party. A basic and
well known principle of democratic policy and public life. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Finally,and I hate being put in the position to have to defend the - dominant (~30% market share) cable provider in the US, but it's not Comcast's fault that the FCC implemented policies without the requisite legislative authority, according to the courts not once but multiple times. One might blame the FCC, or Congress, but the winning side in repeated court actions usually is seen as having been the aggrieved party. Which in this case, cough, more often than not was Comcast.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Maybe you consider it entirely innocent of Comcast that the FCC guy
who allowed one of the largest corporate mergers in favour of
Comcast <a
href="http://www.consumerwarningnetwork.com/2011/05/31/legalized-corruption-the-comcast-merger-and-the-fcc/">joined
Comcast a few months later</a>. Not many others do. But we have
our predilections. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
As Stephen noted, noone is suggesting Comcast are angels; but the leap from Comcast attempting to garner (perhaps) some goodwill by kicking into cover some of the costs to cries of foul play is a pretty long leap. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Is it? In that case, i reckon you would see nothing wrong in
Monsanto financing the sittings of Congressional committees on
agriculture, just to garner some goodwill ... I will really like to
know your response to this. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Or maybe, as a major broadband provider, Comcast is just acting like any number of other companies with interest in standards processes and supporting the process.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, they are acting like any normal company... But I fear we have
not be acting like normal civil society, in our overbearing desire
to exonerate some of the most powerful and corrupt influences on how
the global Internet is shaping today. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
In sum, we may as well be 'shocked' to learn firms pay big $$ to hang at W3C: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.w3.org/Consortium/fees-2013">http://www.w3.org/Consortium/fees-2013</a>; or...well hopefully you get the point. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
We have our different shocks I reckon. And In fact I keep hoping
that you get the point of how valuable a culture and norms of
democracy are, and how loose we are getting about them, and the
dangers inherent. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
If you want an open and interoperable network of networks, and/or a world wide web, there's costs involved which do not come out of anyone's taxes or from foundations. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
It should come out of public finances.... How to order such
necessary public finances is a governance challenge. But if we are
in a hurry to jettison democratic principles , it is isnt the best
way to meet that challenge. But if we indeed stick to basic
principles, the challenge can certainly be met. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Lots and lots of volunteers contribute too; but they also appreciate having a 'free' coffee during a break I suspect.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I wont call fully paid corporate employees pursing specific
objectives as volunteers, but yes there are genuine volunteers as
well, and they must be supported by public finance. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:bb359090bbfd4ab288491452a13d0898@EX13-MBX-07.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Lee
PS: Actual tactics to try to cook/bias IETF output/RFC's...that would be a whole other thing. And given the extreme degree of transparency always practiced by IETF, a much higher degree of difficulty. Not that it has not been tried, but buying folks a coffee or whatever, would not be the way to go about that. ; )
________________________________________
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org"><governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org></a> on behalf of michael gurstein <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><gurstein@gmail.com></a>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:18 PM
To: 'Stephen Farrell'; 'McTim'
Cc: 'bestbits'; '1Net List'; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
Subject: [governance] RE: [discuss] FW: Comcast undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?
To be clear Stephen,
As meetings among professionals to discuss professional/technical matters,
it makes (or should make) no difference to anyone who provides the funding.
However, as bodies which are being identified as core mechanisms in the
global governance of the Internet (and as central to the desired global
stampede towards MSism) it matters a very great deal.
Is it really acceptable for the process towards the establishment of global
standards for sugar intake to be "(co)sponsored" by Coca Cola for example;
or for that matter for Coca Cola to have a member on the Board of one of the
key technical bodies making recommendations towards those standards?
M
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Farrell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 3:28 PM
To: michael gurstein; 'McTim'
Cc: 'bestbits'; '1Net List'; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
Subject: Re: [discuss] FW: Comcast undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?
Hi Michael,
I don't agree that there's an inherent conflict of interest involved in the
IETF being sponsored by large companies that operate in IT/networking.
That's in large part due to how the IETF is setup and managed openly and
transparently etc. Again, if someone wants to go check it out, I think all
the sponsorships are public and I know all the mailing lists are there and
all the IETF nomcom memberships and selections etc etc. To the best of my
knowledge you will not find any such conflict is real.
And while I have no axe to grind for Comcast, I did in the past work for
another large company in that space and I really would be surprised if one
of those is that much worse or better than another. I think they all have
their good and less good aspects, as do many large organisations, such as
governments.
I also think your broader point about MSism not being in your view the right
model does not require you to try to argue that the IETF's funding creates
such a conflict. Especially since the IETF doesn't have such a conflict. You
would do far better to argue that the IETF setup is pretty good but doesn't
generalise as claimed I figure.
Oh, and if you have suggestions as to how the IETF could get other sources
of funding, I know for sure that the ISOC folks who chase that money to
support the IETF and RFC editor would just love to hear from you:-)
S.
On 03/22/2014 09:47 PM, michael gurstein wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Tks Stephen,
Please note that my comments were meant for the larger audience of
those with an interest in how the Internet is and is to be
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">managed/governed i.e.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">all of those impacted by the Internet which by now includes most
everyone in the world. It was only incidentally meant for those,
including those most active on this (and other IG related) lists, for
whom no argument that presents critical analyses or questions
concerning this drive towards MSism apparently can be countenanced.
What I said was:
It seems quite explicit that the IETF and ISOC, two of the major
pillars of multistakeholderism which is so vehemently being promoted
by the US Government and its followers in the tech and civil society
communities as a replacement for democratic governance of the
Internet, have long histories of accepting payments from Comcast a
major US corporation which is widely understood as being among the
least ethical and possibly most active in undermining US policy and
regulatory processes in support of its own narrow economic self-interests
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">(increasingly encompassing the Internet).
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
So far no one has questioned the truth of this statement.
"We" and here I mean all of those in the larger audience I'm referring
to above are being asked to accept this state of affairs unquestioningly.
Earlier I noted some highly questionable experiences with the MS
process as currently being operationalized through 1Net and elsewhere.
I received no useful explanation or response.
Additionally I introduced a series of questions with respect to how
various "risks" associated with MSism might be handled given the
significance that is being given to MSism as the preferred mechanism
for Internet (and other?) governance arrangements. I received no
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">explanation or response.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
In this current interaction I noted what appeared to be at least the
potential for a significant conflict of interest in two of the primary
current mechanisms for MSism which as we know is being explicitly
described as a post-democratic governance mechanism for the Internet.
You have seen the quality and content of the responses to my questions
and comments in this area.
I have made no accusations either explicit or implicit concerning the
IETF or ISOC. I don't know enough about either of them to have any
opinion in these matters.
However, those who do know rather more about the role that Comcast is
playing in the current communications policy and regulatory activities
in the US are raising warning flags to such an extent that one has
little alternative but to question the role that Comcast may be
playing in the quite parallel global Internet "governance" mechanisms
as per the IETF and ISOC. If nothing else there is the appearance of a
conflict of interest and given the other risks already pointed to with
respect to MSism and Global Internet Governance one surely must add
this to the list i.e. is it safe to proceed to a governance framework
where there are no evident or explicit boundaries between private
sector activities and interests and the public interest.
Of course, as I believe is the case for many on this list, there is no
belief that the Internet should be managed or governed in the public
interest (rather than as a concatenation of, or "consensus" among
private
interests) then this question has no meaning. However, one hopes that
if nothing else, the NetMundial meeting will clearly affirm that the
overwhelming priority of the peoples of the world is to have the
Internet governed in the public interest and with the principles for
Internet governance being based on this fundamental value.
Best,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Farrell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:01 PM
To: michael gurstein; 'McTim'
Cc: bestbits; '1Net List'; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
Subject: Re: [discuss] FW: Comcast undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?
Hi Michael,
I think you're very far off base there, if you're suggesting that the
IETF are somehow corrupted by this sponsorship. If you're not
suggesting that, then making that clear would be helpful I think.
The IETF's funding is pretty transparent I think. Between this kind of
new multi-year deal and meeting sponsorships, I think it mostly does
come from large IT/networking companies. (But a substantial chunk
comes from meeting participants via meeting
fees.)
It seems to me that no large company has even been a saint. But so what?
That has afaik no influence on what the IETF does other than
individual people thank the sponsors now and then.
Also, I don't recall the IETF ever proposing that our way of handling
rough consensus would, could or should be used in any other context.
Maybe some people have said or think that but the IETF hasn't said any
such thing that I recall. So you're also conflating entirely separate
things I think, and in an unfair manner.
Anyway, sponsoring the IETF doesn't get anyone any favourable
treatment that I've seen in the last nearly 19 years of being involved
with the IETF. You can believe me or not on that, and either way you
can audit all the mailing lists and (since the datatracker tool was
developed) all the IESG comments on drafts as they become RFCs. I
don't believe you will find even a dubious correlation, but I'd be
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">interested if you did.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
IMO you are just barking up the wrong tree.
S.
On 03/22/2014 05:00 PM, michael gurstein wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm not sure why it might be a "snide insinuation".
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">It seems quite explicit that the IETF and ISOC, two of the major
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">pillars of multistakeholderism which is so vehemently being promoted
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">by the US Government and its followers in the tech and civil society
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">communities as a replacement for democratic governance of the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Internet, have long histories of accepting payments from Comcast a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">major US corporation which is widely understood as being among the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">least ethical and possibly most active in undermining US policy and
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">regulatory processes in support of its own narrow economic
self-interests
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">(increasingly encompassing the Internet).
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/corruption-distortion-control-comc"><http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/corruption-distortion-control-co
mc></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/corruption-distortion-control-comc">http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/corruption-distortion-control-comc</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">asts-r
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">eal-life-house-of-cards-238904
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">InfoWorld Home < <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.infoworld.com/"><http://www.infoworld.com/></a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/">http://www.infoworld.com/</a>> /
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Notes from the Field
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">< <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x.-cringely"><http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x.-cringely></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x.-cringely">http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x.-cringely</a>> / Corruption,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">distortion, control: Comcast's...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> < <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x-cringely"><http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x-cringely></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x-cringely">http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/robert-x-cringely</a>> Robert X. Cringely
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">March 21, 2014
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Corruption, distortion, control: Comcast's real-life 'House of Cards'
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The frenzy over the proposed Time Warner merger hides damning details
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of Comcast's power-hungry moves
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">By Robert X. Cringely
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">< <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.infoworld.com/author-bios/robert-x-cringely"><http://www.infoworld.com/author-bios/robert-x-cringely></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/author-bios/robert-x-cringely">http://www.infoworld.com/author-bios/robert-x-cringely</a>> | InfoWorld
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">< <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.infoworld.com/"><http://www.infoworld.com/></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/">http://www.infoworld.com/</a>>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Let's talk about Comcast, he said, hands trembling and the big vein
in
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">his forehead throbbing like a jungle drum. I hit the FCC's Net
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">neutrality delusion
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/railroads-superhighways-and-the">http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/railroads-superhighways-and-the</a>-
f
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ight-f
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">air-access-237815> in a previous post, where FCC Chairman Tom
air-access-237815> Wheeler
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">interpreted the Supreme Court's Net neutering decision as giving the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">FCC even broader powers of control over the big Internet providers
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">instead of the steel-toed kick to his crotch it really is. Complete
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">double-talk seems to the standard for the Internet provider business
these
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">days.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Comcast is a perfect example of a we-don't-care, double-talking,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">slavering, rampaging telecom/cable monstrosity that's using this
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">consumer-crippling legislation to topple our competitive choices like
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Godzilla strolling through Tokyo. It's only going to get worse. Sure,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">there are tinfoil hats preaching ridiculous Comcast conspiracies, but
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">maybe the wingnuts are on to something, even if they're starting out
from
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">pothead premises.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The deal that's been in the news the most recently is Comcast's move
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">to devour Time Warner Cable. You'd think Time Warner might not be
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">superhappy about this deal, but its CEO, Rob Marcus, got up at the
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Deutsche Bank Media, Internet and Telecom Conference held earlier
this
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">month in the highly industrious locale of Palm Beach, Fla., and
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">enthused that the $45 billion merger will put all of us in
happy-happy
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">land.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Newsflash: It won't. Rather, get ready to be dumped into
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">hugely-screwed-douche-broom land. The deal means that Comcast is set
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">to service about two-thirds of the American population with both
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Internet and entertainment. How many of those folks are going to have
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">an actual, practical choice?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Comcast spreads it tentacles
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Tellingly Marcus has been Time Warner's CEO for only about two
months,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">and recently leaked information on his compensation package shows
that
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">he stands to make robber baron money if the merger goes through -- to
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">the tune of about $80 million
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">< <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://bgr.com/2014/03/20/comcast-twc-merger-news-ceo-marcus/"><http://bgr.com/2014/03/20/comcast-twc-merger-news-ceo-marcus/></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bgr.com/2014/03/20/comcast-twc-merger-news-ceo-marcus/">http://bgr.com/2014/03/20/comcast-twc-merger-news-ceo-marcus/</a>> . How
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">could he possibly be biased? I know I'm a cynical old fart, but is it
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">loony to suspect that Comgraft may have had a hand in getting this
guy
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">a key to the executive bathroom? If there was any justice, he'd have
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">to write a resignation letter right this minute with ink made from
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">rectal blood and salty tears.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The fate of U.S. Internet pipes isn't all that's on the block. With
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Net laws castrated as they currently are, Comcast can also opt to
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">bully content providers and control what you can and can't access on
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">what amounts to its Internet. In a recent blog post, Netflix CEO Reed
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hastings sounds like he's complaining about this trend -- never mind
he's
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">already validated it.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Netflix complained of degraded throughput to its customers about a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">month ago, then paid Com-lie an exorbitant extortion fee, and presto!
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Its service quality was magically restored. Hastings and Comcast
paint
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">this as a big win for consumers, but they're actually saying we're as
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">dumb as a bag of hammers.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Doesn't seem very snide or insinuatory to me.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And yes, most non-corrupted public policy processes are publicly
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">funded with appropriate degrees of transparency and accountability
and
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">with clear boundaries between public interests and private interests
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">guarded with varying degrees of ferocity by laws governing conflicts
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of interest and suborning of public officials and public policy
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">processes. What isn't made clear in the overwhelming forces and
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">banshee howling of support for MSism is that at its heart it is an
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">attempt to foist the generally acknowledged as corrupted US telecom
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">policy and regulatory system on the Internet and on the world.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And a question for you and all the other multistakeholderists-is this
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">what you want for Global Internet Governance?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">M
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org"><mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org">discuss-bounces@1net.org</a> [
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org"><mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org">mailto:discuss-bounces@1net.org</a>] On
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Behalf Of McTim
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:07 AM
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">To: Michel Gauthier
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Cc: 1Net List
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Subject: Re: [discuss] FW: Comcast undertakes 9 year IETF cosponsorship!?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Michel Gauthier <
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mg@telepresse.com"><mailto:mg@telepresse.com></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mg@telepresse.com">mg@telepresse.com</a>> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">At 02:45 22/03/2014, McTim wrote:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If you are trying to make an argument by quoting rfc3869 and then
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">quoting a page from the ISOC website I think you will have to do
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">better than that, as one is related to research and the Comcast
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">partnership is about IETF meetings and other activities. ISOC itself
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">doesn't do research in the way that DNS-OARC or CAIDA or others do it.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ISOC does surveys mainly and recently economic effects of IXPs, etc.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If you would prefer public funding for IETF activities, then please
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">state that, otherwise, one can't tell what your argument is all about.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I only do my collection, analysis and reporting job after sorting
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">real, tricky, naive and noisy inputs, on this and other equivalent
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">lists or fora where real infuencing strategies are observable.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">So far, you are not even speculating that there is an 'influencing
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">strategy", you are merely posting random factoids seemingly in
support
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of the other MGs snide insinuations.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">To my knowledge DNS-OARC is a private club
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This has nothing to do with what I pointed out about them, that they
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">do research of the kind that you suggested that the IETF does.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">of which the interest in users support is characterized by its
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/dnsentropy"><https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/dnsentropy></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/dnsentropy">https://www.dns-oarc.net/oarc/services/dnsentropy</a> page which states:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">"On August 7, 2008, Dan Kaminsky
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">< <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.ioactive.com/kaminsky.html"><http://www.ioactive.com/kaminsky.html></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ioactive.com/kaminsky.html">http://www.ioactive.com/kaminsky.html</a>> will release additional
details about these poisoning attacks. "
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">another tangental red-herring.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">CAIDA membership is beyond financial access to FLOSS IUsers and
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">corporations interested in their market, what is my focussed area.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This doesn't mask the fact that they do research on 'future Internet
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">issues"
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">My question to you still stands.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">How would you like the IETF to be funded??
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">rgds,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">McTim
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">discuss mailing list
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:discuss@1net.org"><mailto:discuss@1net.org></a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss"><http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss></a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:discuss@1net.org">discuss@1net.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://1net-mail.1net.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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