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<p>It is rare to meet a politician who is not financially self interested,
or so my morning paper assures me every time I read the front page. So let
us not split that hair too much :) </p>
<div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<p style="margin: 10pt 0; color: black;">On 6 March 2014 9:38:50 AM
"michael gurstein" <gurstein@gmail.com> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;"><div
class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Yes, I agree…
(only to add </span>Essentially a winner take all political <i>(or
financially self-interested) </i>process.<o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>M<span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div
style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:srs@savitr.info] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March
05, 2014 7:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org; michael
gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> Andrew Puddephatt; Jeremy Malcolm;
parminder<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three
NETmundial submissions launched for endorsement at
bestbits.net<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike, I have
seen multistakeholder processes get real but only where there are
operational goals involved .. In such cases active cooperation takes place
regardless of whether the person you cooperate with works for a competitor
or not. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In the
processes where it does break down it does so because of more than one
stakeholder being focused on power and control rather than on achieving
results. Essentially a winner take all political process.<br><br>--srs
(iPad)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 06-Mar-2014, at 8:27, "michael
gurstein" <<a
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote
style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andrew
(and Suresh…</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Those
are quite legitimate points/questions and very much worthy of serious
discussion and debate. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>However,
evoking (over and over and over…) the undefined, undescribed, undetailed
multistakeholderist mantra doesn’t get us any closer…
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
continuous shapeshifting by the proponents of the MS meme whenever they are
challenged to get real --well this isn’t quite “MSism”, it isn’t true
MSism, it will be better next time MSism, doesn’t do anyone a service
(except the “wizards” behind the curtains). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>From
my own experience, whenever MSism “gets real” it falls apart—either it
doesn’t have any operational processes or related significant structures of
accountability so it can’t handle even the most insignificant of challenges
without some form of full on offensive/defensive onslaught or it simply
ignores the issue and moves on. Nor can it handle even the most
inconsequential of divergences/diversities of opinion—the drive towards
convergence/consensus (and the associated processes of marginalization and
exclusion) are terrifying to me if there were any real chance of scaling.
In the last century we had a lot of experience (and several names)
for political systems that couldn’t deal with challenge, divergence,
conflict and insisted on a managed consensus and forced choices “or else…
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Democracy
and multi-lateralism both have many many flaws but they have both taken us
a considerable distance down roads that allow us to be where we are now and
thinking about significant and desirable ways forward into much more
complex decision environments. Moreover we now have (the possibility of
using) new tools to support the extending of democratic capabilities, the
broader inclusion of diversities, the extension of opportunities for
effective participation to previously marginalized
populations.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I
see absolutely no reason for civil society to be uncritically supporting
MSism as is obviously currently the case. To my mind this goes against
everything that CS has traditionally stood for—the broadening and deepening
of accountability in support of the public good, the strengthening of
democracy including through its extension to the poor and marginalized, the
developing of public processes and methods to control the unaccountable use
of private power in opposition to the public interest.
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>MSism
is in its essence a form of privatization of power—shifting of power from
the hands of people (however flawed that might be) to the hands of those
who for the most part are unaccountable and non-transparent in their
actions, their internal operations and in their
structures.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I
would love to see some demonstration that I am wrong or that I’ve missed
something but another round of “trust them/us” is not going to cut
it.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div
style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Andrew
Puddephatt [<a
href="mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org">mailto:Andrew@gp-digital.org</a>]
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael
gurstein; <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
'Jeremy Malcolm'; 'parminder'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at <a
href="http://bestbits.net">bestbits.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Michael</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Those
of us less clever than you are trying to figure out how to make governance
of a global system more equitable and transparent and accountable.
Clearly we failed.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Can
you explain to me how an international inter state process is democratic,
assuming that is what you believe (and if not what is your democratic
alternative to the submissions on BB?). How are my interests
represented by inter state discussions, or those of Chinese or Russian
citizens, or women in Saudi Arabia or Canadian
academics? </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div
style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From:
</span></b><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>michael
gurstein <<a
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Reply-To:
</b>michael gurstein <<a
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date:
</b>Wednesday, 5 March 2014 23:57<br><b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
Jeremy Malcolm <<a
href="mailto:Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au">Jeremy@Malcolm.id.au</a>>, "<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>"
<<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br><b>Cc:
</b>"<<a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.%20net">bestbits@lists.
net</a>>" <<a
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>><br><b>Subject:
</b>RE: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched
for endorsement at <a
href="http://bestbits.net">bestbits.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I
see, so in your world democracy (however flawed), is to be replaced by
Multistakeholderism where there is no (evident) transparency (T) or
accountability (A) for the inputs into the stakeholder processes, no
(evident) T or A for the outputs of the stakeholder processes and the
stakeholders themselves are subject to no effective T or A since they are
some sort of (interglalactic?) shapeshifters errr… those with “role
flexibilities”.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Have
I missed something here?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This
may work for a Wizard of Oz space like 1Net where even as the curtain gets
repeatedly bunched up revealing the (“non-existent”—we have it on the
highest possible authority—trust us) wizard pulling the strings and T &
A appears to consist of repeated choruses of “trust them it will get
better” by a fawning self-selected “Steering Committee”, but surely in our
world we might expect something with a slightly higher reality
component.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M</span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div
style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Malcolm<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 05,
2014 4:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
parminder<br><b>Cc:</b> <,<a
href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net>">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net></a>,<br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [governance] Re: [bestbits] Three NETmundial submissions launched for
endorsement at <a
href="http://bestbits.net">bestbits.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On 5 Mar 2014, at 7:49 pm,
parminder <<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'><br><br><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>So, request a clear response - do
you mean <b><i>parity</i></b> in <b><i>decision making</i></b> about
<b><i>public policies </i></b>between gov and non gov actors.... And this
is not a petty point... Half of the time ostyle='color:black'>So,
request a clear response - do you mean <b><i>parity</i></b> in
<b><i>decision making</i></b> about <b><i>public policies </i></b>between
gov and non gov actors.... And this is not a petty point... Half of the
time of the WGEC got taken on this kind of discussion. This is the single
most important point today, if we can clarify nd possibly agree on this
point - rest is not too difficult... Lets accept what is the key point, and
not skirt it...</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Different people who contributed
to the submission, even if they all endorse the final result, will probably
give you different answers to that question. I'm not sure that anyone
is interested in what my personal answer is because I'm just an individual,
but I would say no I do not accept as a general proposition that parity in
decision making is appropriate, which is why I personally objected to that
language being used.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>For some issues, it will be
appropriate that the stakeholders act as equals in the decision making
process (to the extent that there is a "decision" at all).
In other areas, it won't be appropriate and may be more appropriate
that although all stakeholders are involved, one of them will legitimately
take a bigger role than the others. For example governments may take
a leading role in transnational human rights disputes, the technical
community may do so in developing spam filtering standards, civil society
may do so in developing human rights based principles for judging
government surveillance practices, and even the private sector may do so,
say in setting prices for the trading of IPv4
addresses.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>This also implies that the
appropriate mechanism of governance may differ in each case, eg. laws,
standards, markets. The above all follows naturally if you accept
that there are no fixed stakeholder roles, because the appropriate roles
will differ depending on the circumstances.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'><br><br><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>BTW, the German government has
the following to say in its submission to NetMundial<br><br>...<br><br>Do
you for instance agree to the above formulation, or
NOT...</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Nope, don't agree with the German
government's formulation because it maintains the fallacy of fixed
stakeholder roles.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>--</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Jeremy
Malcolm PhD LLB (Hons) B Com</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Internet
lawyer, ICT policy advocate, geek</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>host
-t NAPTR 5.9.8.5.2.8.2.2.1.0.6.<a href="http://e164.org">e164.org</a>|awk
-F! '{print $3}'</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p
class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span
style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>WARNING: This
email has not been encrypted. You are strongly recommended to enable
encryption at your end. For instructions, see <a
href="http://jere.my/l/pgp">http://jere.my/l/pgp</a>.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p
class=MsoNormal><span
style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p
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