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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rafik,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I put the Inet list on because my major comment had to do with Inet and the tributary behaviours from this list and others towards it…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And sorry, my reference to a very old song from the Rolling Stones probably is obscure rather more because of it’s (and my) age than it is to differences in cultural or linguistic </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> background…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>M<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Rafik Dammak [mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 09, 2014 2:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> michael gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> governance@lists.igcaucus.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [bestbits] Bad Behaviour<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Michael,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>regardless the content of your response, I am still wondering why you put the 1net list on cc while the initial thread is in IGC list . <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>another remark, as an non-native speaker, I cannot really grasp every time the expressions or references you are using and this coming someone stating defending the under-represented , I feel confused .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Rafik <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>2014/1/9 michael gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p>All of this cluck, cluck, clucking about "bad behavior" by some folks whose truly atrocious behavior effectively shut down the IGC list and may have destroyed it forever is a source of some shall we say, "irony...<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>I was at the famous Bali meeting and I thought that Parminder's behaviour was at a couple of points inappropriate--provoked certainly, but inappropriate; perhaps reflecting certain cultural misunderstandings or whatever, but yes, inappropriate and I told him so... <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Whether it warrants this kind of public vilification and what appears to be a desire for permanent exile (and the, dare I say, quite evidently political motivations that are prompting this .... I leave to various people's judgement.. <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>In normal circumstances I would suggest that one party offers an apology, the other party accepts, they kiss and make up (whoops perhaps not so appropriate in this circumstance... and we all go on our way...<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>But let's talk about some really "bad behavior" and moreover behavior that has serious consequences much beyond a couple of momentary lapses...<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>We have a <u>self-selected</u> group, <u>purportedly</u> representing "Civil Society" (the Best bits Coordinating Committee); being <u>self-appointed</u> to an, in turn, <u>self-selected</u> group which <u>purports</u> to also represent Civil Society but in some vaguer larger sense (the Civil Society Coordinating Committee-CS:CC); and then further <u>self-selecting</u> themselves or their designates to represent "civil society" on the Coordinating Group of further <u>vague and extremely shadowy and so far with no provenance or transparency </u>-- the Inet group. <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>And then to pile on top of this we have authorities in Brazil (again extremely vague as to who exactly is involved) <u>designating this shadowy Inet group to be the sole interface</u> for all of the non-governmental sectors to be involved in what has been purported to be a Summit to discuss global Internet Policies and Principles... <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>And further we have this CS: CC going through an internal process among its self-appointed poobahs of horse-trading and other processes <u>without apparent legitimacy or accountability and transparency (only by happy accident)</u> to identify nominees for some elements of this self-same "Summit/err... meeting...<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>(I may have missed an illegitimacy or unaccountability there somewhere but you get my drift...<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Now, the community of which I am a part has been looking to have a role in these discussions but what I see is a wall of illegitimacies and exclusionary behaviours which at their base and up and down the line are quite evidently politically motivated i.e. meant to close off debate; to limit issues and options; to exclude divergent voices; to ensure the ultimate adoption of a now-(post-Snowden) discredited and illegitimate, status quo consensus concerning the principle, policies and practices of global Internet Governance...<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>To say that I'm disappointed is hardly sufficient... To say that all this is starting to look (err... smell) like the World Economic Forum and it's pay for play approach to Global Governance is I think hardly hyperbole.<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>"So what does a po' boy do, but play in a... whoops wrong song, but right melody...<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Maybe we'll just have to call our own meeting -- call it the World Internet Forum -- and see who might show up to have a real discussion on the real issues concerning the Internet in current society and towards an <a href="http://cirn.wikispaces.com/An+Internet+for+the+Common+Good+-+Engagement%2C+Empowerment%2C+and+Justice+for+All" target="_blank">Internet for the Common Good</a>... <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Mike <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] On Behalf Of McTim<br>Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 11:01 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>; Daniel Pimienta<br>Subject: Re: [governance] Nomination of Parminder<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:11 PM, Daniel Pimienta <<a href="mailto:pimienta@funredes.org" target="_blank"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>pimienta@funredes.org</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p>> This is getting quite personal now... Dont you think it is too much so?<o:p></o:p></p><p>> From Deirdre's report I get that neither Suresh nor Mc Tim were <o:p></o:p></p><p>> present in that event, so why are they reporting about it?<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Speaking for myself, I am not "reporting" merely reminding folk that it is an unresolved issue for the IGC.<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> When I read:<o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>>> He was then physically aggressive/threatening towards me (no contact, <o:p></o:p></p><p>>> but i felt physically threatened).<o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> I must say that I totally trust this testimony: what people feels is <o:p></o:p></p><p>> an objective part of their own realm although it could be seen <o:p></o:p></p><p>> subjective from the outside.<o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> However.<o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> Just a highly probable hypothesis to try to put some calming to this <o:p></o:p></p><p>> personal situation.<o:p></o:p></p><p>> Cultures does matters. Difference of cultures makes a lot of ...difference.<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Does your hypothesis explain why folks from other parts of the world were so uncomfortable they also left?<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> I spent 2 years in assignment in the US back in 1984 (in the deep <o:p></o:p></p><p>> South), coming from my mediterranean culture.<o:p></o:p></p><p>> Every time I was getting anger (and in my culture we do not repress <o:p></o:p></p><p>> this state of mind, we just express our anger) I realized that some <o:p></o:p></p><p>> people around me felt physically threaten (in spite the fact I have <o:p></o:p></p><p>> never rised the hand to anybody and I am totally uncapable of any <o:p></o:p></p><p>> physical agression). It really impressed me a lot and obliged me, <o:p></o:p></p><p>> since i was living there, to try to adapt and change somehow behavior. <o:p></o:p></p><p>> I am not familiar with Indian culture but I wonder if we are not <o:p></o:p></p><p>> facing the same type of situation and my guess is that it is highly probable.<o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> I do recommand the reading of US citizen author Edward T. Hall's "The <o:p></o:p></p><p>> hidden dimension" who brightly explained how cultural chocks create <o:p></o:p></p><p>> strange situatrons... and to cool down.<o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p>> Conclusive question : are we supposed, on the top of being fluent in <o:p></o:p></p><p>> English, to embrace US culture in order to be allowed to participate <o:p></o:p></p><p>> in an IGF event?<o:p></o:p></p><p>> <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>no, you just have to have a sense of decency.<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>--<o:p></o:p></p><p>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>McTim<o:p></o:p></p><p>"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:bestbits@lists.bestbits.net">bestbits@lists.bestbits.net</a>.<br>To unsubscribe or change your settings, visit:<br> <a href="http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits" target="_blank">http://lists.bestbits.net/wws/info/bestbits</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>